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Monk with a reach weapon


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Howdy. I'm really trying to find a way to make a monk with a reach weapon, and i really mean a monk, not a fighter with a 1 or 2 lvl dip. nothing against that, i just want to try it with more of the monk abilities for flavor if possible.

so along with the flavor of the monk, i like the idea of reach with said monk to be able to pushing assault folks away, continue attacking with lunge and then force them to use up their move action to get to me and give me an AoO while they get back to me.

The trouble i'm having is finding a way to get enough hit to be able to feel confident connecting on those AoOs.

At first i figured i would go:
1. crusader cleric of shelyn which gives me weapon focus with the glaive as a bonus feat.
2. Martial Artist monk - taking crusader flurry at 2nd to be able to flurry with the glaive.
.
.
.

the problem here was that i am now starting with two lvls at 0 BAB which is a bit rough by itself and i can't get any of the important feats leading to the main use for lunge (power attack, furious assault, pushing assault) without a BAB of +1.

Then i decided to go:
1. Fighter - take power attack, furious assault, pushing assault (possibly save pushing for later since no one has more than one attack now anyways, but maybe just take it for fun, flavor, and AoOs)
2. Crusader Cleric of Shelyn - weapon focus glaive
3 Martial artist, picking up crusader flurry immediately.
.
.
.

i really like the flavor of this and i think the couple of utility spells i'll pick up on one lvl of cleric would be fun, but i'm just not sure i'll be able to hit anything, especially on my AoOs, which is kind of the point.

I'm not to up on the newer equipment. Does anyone have any suggestions for making my hit acceptable? or different ideas for how to get there?

thanks in advance

Sczarni

Monk will always make AoO's at 3/4 BAB. On the plus side he'll add 1.5 x STR mod to damage!

There are some reach monk weapons in Ultimate Equipment, but I have no idea how they work (Kama, double chained & Kusarigama)... Does the double chain Kama threaten 10' if you just used it to make attacks adjacent on your turn?

The Exchange Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Heirloom weapon has an AoO option


GeneticDrift wrote:
Heirloom weapon has an AoO option

that would be nice, but the weapon is non-masterwork, so it can't be enchanted and whatnot, which seems to limit it's usefulness. or am i misunderstanding something?


Krodjin wrote:

Monk will always make AoO's at 3/4 BAB. On the plus side he'll add 1.5 x STR mod to damage!

There are some reach monk weapons in Ultimate Equipment, but I have no idea how they work (Kama, double chained & Kusarigama)... Does the double chain Kama threaten 10' if you just used it to make attacks adjacent on your turn?

first off, so you don't think with my current plan (the one starting with a fighter lvl and then a cleric lvl) that i'd be whiffing on AoOs?

Second off, i hadn't noticed those reach monk weapons. too bad the choices are either double weapons or that annoying 1d4 damage one.

if i only used the double chained kama as a reach weapon, do you think i could get away with just enchanting the one edge of it?

ooh, also do you think choosing to use it as reach vs. keeping it in both hands and using it as a double weapon is a free action? that would mean i could use it up close or at reach.


here's another question.
crusader's flurry states that you have to have the channel energy class feature. is there any chance that if i took a lvl of paladin, that would count? the pally wouldn't be able to use channel energy since you have to get to lvl 4, but his class has the feature. here's to hoping : )

The Exchange Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

elgabalawi wrote:
GeneticDrift wrote:
Heirloom weapon has an AoO option
that would be nice, but the weapon is non-masterwork, so it can't be enchanted and whatnot, which seems to limit it's usefulness. or am i misunderstanding something?

There is a spell to make an item masterwork, even PFS legal now. The name escapes me though.


GeneticDrift wrote:
elgabalawi wrote:
GeneticDrift wrote:
Heirloom weapon has an AoO option
that would be nice, but the weapon is non-masterwork, so it can't be enchanted and whatnot, which seems to limit it's usefulness. or am i misunderstanding something?

There is a spell to make an item masterwork, even PFS legal now. The name escapes me though.

ooh. nice.


if you're worried about attack bonus, why would you want to be taking power attack?
ok, you don't have always use power attack, but still.
remember you don't have to be able to flurry with the weapon, you can flurry with just kicks/headbutts (not using the non-monk reach weapon), and reserve the reach weapon mostly for drawing AoOs (after you Push the opponents further back, and then 5' step back yourself) and being able to reach further when you move and make single attacks. Lunge in combo with the Reach weapon almost ensures you can draw AoOs if the opponent moves towards you to attack, but isn't needed from Level 1 (the opponent ends up 10' away from you from Push and 5' step back).

i wouldn't worry too much about getting +0 BAB for the first two levels though, if one of them is granting Weapon Focus for free anyways, and you're gaining good abilities e.g. from Monk and from Cleric Domains. just don't dip in Rogue also :-)

paladin definitely does not count towards having the Channel Energy class feature until the point you actually gain it from that class...
seriously, come on, you knew that one.

Star Voter 2015

Straight Sohei would get you the ability to flurry with a polearm by level 6--is there a reason you can't just do that? Do you need to flurry with a polearm before that?

It saves a BAB loss from dipping Cleric and gets you a Fighter's Weapon Training at the same time, too, so it should be easier to hit as well. Since it's the same feature, Gloves of Dueling (7500gp) will get you +2 to hit and damage with it, too.


yeah, i would say to go that way, at low levels you can still get use out of a pole-arm without being able to flurry with it, meanwhile you can flurry at near-reach while threatening further out: messing up enemy's positioning options... eventually being able mix and match close range and reach, and eventually getting weapon training, and at-will enhancement bonus on your weapons, will help CMB for maneuvers with weapons.

Sovereign Court Star Voter 2014

Masterwork Transformation is the name of the spell that a few folks have mentioned, for what it's worth.


Illeist wrote:
Masterwork Transformation is the name of the spell that a few folks have mentioned, for what it's worth.

thanks i had always wondered what the point of the heirloom trait was, but now . . .


Quandary wrote:

if you're worried about attack bonus, why would you want to be taking power attack?

ok, you don't have always use power attack, but still.

well, i also need power attack to eventually get pushing assault i believe, but i probably wouldn't use it on AoOs if I was worried about hitting.

remember you don't have to be able to flurry with the weapon, you can flurry with just kicks/headbutts (not using the non-monk reach weapon), and reserve the reach weapon mostly for drawing AoOs (after you Push the opponents further back, and then 5' step back yourself) and being able to reach further when you move and make single attacks.

Yeah, a friendly guy on another thread mentioned this, and it makes sense (and i guess i'm open to it if there's no other way), but thematically/flavor wise, i'd really like to be able to do the brunt of my attacking with the reach weapon - it just looks kind of badass in my mind :-)

Lunge in combo with the Reach weapon almost ensures you can draw AoOs if the opponent moves towards you to attack, but isn't needed from Level 1 (the opponent ends up 10' away from you from Push and 5' step back).

i wouldn't worry too much about getting +0 BAB for the first two levels though, if one of them is granting Weapon Focus for free anyways, and you're gaining good abilities e.g. from Monk and from Cleric Domains. just don't dip in Rogue also :-)

This is what i like to hear, because i'd love to be able to keep that progression for the added flavor and story that i would build in my head around it. do you think starting with one level of fighter first makes sense? or do you think it would be more viable with just going cleric straight to monk and then getting pushing assault and lunge that much later?

paladin definitely does not count towards having the Channel Energy class feature until the point you actually gain it from that class...
seriously, come on, you knew that one.

yeah, but a newbie can dare to dream, right?


mplindustries wrote:

Straight Sohei would get you the ability to flurry with a polearm by level 6--is there a reason you can't just do that? Do you need to flurry with a polearm before that?

It saves a BAB loss from dipping Cleric and gets you a Fighter's Weapon Training at the same time, too, so it should be easier to hit as well. Since it's the same feature, Gloves of Dueling (7500gp) will get you +2 to hit and damage with it, too.

oooh, i had not ever noticed that. it looses abundant step and stunning fist, which were both part of the flavor i was envisioning, but. . . it might make too much sense to pass up :-)

on a related note, my original plan was to also take mantis style and use stunning fist when folks got me cornered and i couldn't get distance on them (and if someone else had abilities to make folks helpless, i was looking forward to trying out that jawbreaker feat).


okay, before i give up on my original idea, any other thoughts on whether my original idea of one fighter lvl and one cleric lvl before going martial artist would have enough hit to get by? i'm getting more attached to some of the little flavor pieces, but if folks with more experience think i'll just be whiffing a lot, then i better just move on.

Star Voter 2015

You can just take Stunning Fist as a normal feat if you like. Abundant Step, well, that's just not a very good ability. It takes a feat chain (dimensional agility) before it's useful, and most Monks trade it via Qinggong Monk anyway.

Sczarni

Your idea of Fighter/Cleric/Monk is totally viable. Your BAB won't suffer that much. Consider that a Monk 8 has BAB of +6, where as a F1/C1/M6 has a BAB of +5.


Maneuver Master replaces Flurry of Blows with Flurry of Maneuvers and FoM lacks the 'monk special' restriction that FoB has. So you could do FoM with a Scythe, for example, and it's kosher. So all you'll need is either Martial or Exotic Weapon Prof. on a reach weapon and you could wield anything from a Glaive to a Meteor Hammer.


Krodjin wrote:

Your idea of Fighter/Cleric/Monk is totally viable. Your BAB won't suffer that much. Consider that a Monk 8 has BAB of +6, where as a F1/C1/M6 has a BAB of +5.

do you think i'll be able to connect with unarmed strikes for stunning fist when i get cornered, or will those attacks start missing as i get higher lvl and am not built to optimize unarmed attacks given that my main damaging attacks will be with a glaive?


Take Quick draw and flurry throw with sai. Maybe throw anything so you can flurry throw Siangam. better damage than Shuriken. What about rope dart? You can flurry with it and when you're done you can pull the rope back like Scorpion. Or Kyoktesu Shoge.


it sounds like you plan on using glaive for alot of attacks either way,
so you would be 'splitting up' your wealth budget on glaive and UAS attacks anyways.
it still sounds like sohei is the best bet,
you can choose weapon training in both polearms and monk (including UAS) groups.
(monk of course already includes some polearms, but you may not want to be limited to those)
if you want stunning fist too... well, i think some builds with normal monk were already discussed,
starting with fighter... sure that's do-able, it just delays monk ability progression further,
which is contra to your interest in abundant step/stunning fist, right?
like i said, aiming to eventually be able to flurry with the polearm is fine, but i don't think you need to worry about being able to do it immediately, initially using the polearm as 'auxilliary' to your flurries is MORE than OK a strategy, and soon enough you can flurry with it as well.
i also don't think you need to worry about getting all these feats at low level, certainly not 1st/2nd, it really doesn't sound like the feats you are thinking of getting then will give you the most bang for your buck.


Quandary wrote:

it sounds like you plan on using glaive for alot of attacks either way,

so you would be 'splitting up' your wealth budget on glaive and UAS attacks anyways.
it still sounds like sohei is the best bet,
you can choose weapon training in both polearms and monk (including UAS) groups.
(monk of course already includes some polearms, but you may not want to be limited to those)
if you want stunning fist too... well, i think some builds with normal monk were already discussed,
starting with fighter... sure that's do-able, it just delays monk ability progression further,
which is contra to your interest in abundant step/stunning fist, right?
like i said, aiming to eventually be able to flurry with the polearm is fine, but i don't think you need to worry about being able to do it immediately, initially using the polearm as 'auxilliary' to your flurries is MORE than OK a strategy, and soon enough you can flurry with it as well.
i also don't think you need to worry about getting all these feats at low level, certainly not 1st/2nd, it really doesn't sound like the feats you are thinking of getting then will give you the most bang for your buck.

yeah, i'm looking at sohei more and more.

my main goal is to have a primary class monk character fighting with a reach spear (and by that i also mean doing most of his attacking with a reach spear) i just like the feel of that.

from there, it seemed that eventually getting to pushing assault and lunge was a good bet, so that's how i chose the feats i needed to think about getting.

i thought stunning fist (and to a lesser extent abundant step) could give me some fun utility when i can't control the battle field the way i want to, but neither are totally crucial. i just figured that since i would already have stunning, it would be fun to bust that out when someone closed on me, and likewise it would be fun to step to folks and stunning fist away as well. if you have more/different thoughts on how to best meet my main goals, i'm all ears.

lastly, when you say using the polearm as 'auxiliary' to flurries early, do you mean basically holding a polearm while flurrying with unarmed attacks? it just seems like a bunch of levels to be attacking with a 'weapon' that i don't want to waste money on since it wont be my main weapon after 6th level.

lastly, lastly, i couldn't find any polearm monk weapons. i found a couple or weird reach ones, but no polearms.

thanks in advance


you should reconsider flexible weapons.


I forgot to mention the rope dart has 20 ft. reach.


I don't care for Sohei at all really. Gives up too much monk-ness to be a weak psuedo-fighter.

I'm also not a fan of the cleric dip unless you intend to actually take some cleric levels later. Losing a bab not only hurts your attacks (including AOOs, which is the really important part for a polearm fighter), but it sets all your combat feats back, which gets really annoying.

I don't think you gain much by focusing on flurry with the polearm. You definitely don't balance all the cool stuff you lose. (Saying abundant step isn't useful because you can't attack after is pretty ridiculous. Being able to teleport is an incredibly powerful ability) The best benefit of the polearm is to have that large AOO range with which to trip enemies, thus keeping them off your buddies. And if they get into the 5' range, you can still flurry with your unarmed attacks, doing the same or more damage than you would with the guisarme, and you still threaten the adjacent squares with your unarmed as well.

I would probably take a couple levels of fighter for the feats/proficiency, then just go straight vanilla monk the rest of the way. Another option is two levels of two-handed fighter ranger. Pick up favored enemy (human), power attack, tracking, (and trapbusting if you go trapper ranger, which there's no reason not to), and three times the skills of the fighter.

Important feats: Combat reflexes, improved/greater trip, Lunge. Then you can pick up cleave/cleaving finish, which is pretty strong when you have a 20' reach. Combat patrol is also a strong option, though you don't get as much mileage out of it as a fighter...


Alejandro Acosta wrote:
I forgot to mention the rope dart has 20 ft. reach.

those rope/chain based reach weapons weren't what i had in mind, but how would you see using them? and the rope dart is listed as a ranged weapon as opposed to having reach, so i'm assuming AoOs with them are out, which is part of how i see the reach being useful.


Vestrial wrote:

I don't care for Sohei at all really. Gives up too much monk-ness to be a weak psuedo-fighter.

I'm also not a fan of the cleric dip unless you intend to actually take some cleric levels later. Losing a bab not only hurts your attacks (including AOOs, which is the really important part for a polearm fighter), but it sets all your combat feats back, which gets really annoying.

I don't think you gain much by focusing on flurry with the polearm. You definitely don't balance all the cool stuff you lose. (Saying abundant step isn't useful because you can't attack after is pretty ridiculous. Being able to teleport is an incredibly powerful ability) The best benefit of the polearm is to have that large AOO range with which to trip enemies, thus keeping them off your buddies. And if they get into the 5' range, you can still flurry with your unarmed attacks, doing the same or more damage than you would with the guisarme, and you still threaten the adjacent squares with your unarmed as well.

I would probably take a couple levels of fighter for the feats/proficiency, then just go straight vanilla monk the rest of the way. Another option is two levels of two-handed fighter ranger. Pick up favored enemy (human), power attack, tracking, (and trapbusting if you go trapper ranger, which there's no reason not to), and three times the skills of the fighter.

Important feats: Combat reflexes, improved/greater trip, Lunge. Then you can pick up cleave/cleaving finish, which is pretty strong when you have a 20' reach. Combat patrol is also a strong option, though you don't get as much mileage out of it as a fighter...

1. i hear ya about the sohei. every time i start thinking i should go that way and start looking at it more closely, i'm confronted with how unmonk like it feels.

2. i've seen multiple people state or imply that one can't attack after abundant stepping. this seems odd to me since under abundant step on the monk section, it states that using the ability is a move action. what gives?

3. if i give up on flurry, do you think i can still do enough hitting and damage with the monk's straight BAB? i'm not in love with flurry, i just want to be attacking with the spear, and actually making contact on my main attacks as well as on AoOs.

4. i really liked the idea i read somewhere of going for pushing assault so that i can push people to 15ft. away, attack them with the rest of my attacks with lunge, and then hit them with an AoO when they have to use a move action to get to me. do you think that's worth it?

- thanks


If your GM doesn't permit single weapon flurry you need a non-flurry archetype. The only non-flurry monk that works as more than a dip is Sensei. You get a wannabe bard with a better fortitude save, but it's the best you can do.


"Take Quick draw and flurry throw with sai. Maybe throw anything so you can flurry throw Siangam. better damage than Shuriken. What about rope dart? You can flurry with it and when you're done you can pull the rope back like Scorpion or Raizo (Ninja Assassin). Or Kyoktesu Shoge.
I forgot to mention the rope dart has 20 ft. reach."

those rope/chain based reach weapons weren't what i had in mind, but how would you see using them? and the rope dart is listed as a ranged weapon as opposed to having reach, so i'm assuming AoOs with them are out, which is part of how i see the reach being useful.

Sorry I forgot to ask if your monk was STR or DEX based. If he's dex based use the Rope Dart and pick up deadly aim. Which is like Power attack for ranged weapons. If he's STR then Kyoketsu Shoge (this is a reach weapon that disarms and grapples)and you can still Power atttack as normal. you can hurl them straight at an enemy or twirl them around so you still threaten. and you can flurry (their both Monk weapons) and you only need Exotic weapon Prof. and you can do it at 1st level. You can still use unarmed strikes while wielding it (one free hand, elbows, knees & legs). Str to damage applies normally.


Atarlost wrote:
If your GM doesn't permit single weapon flurry you need a non-flurry archetype. The only non-flurry monk that works as more than a dip is Sensei. You get a wannabe bard with a better fortitude save, but it's the best you can do.

i totally hadn't thought of "single weapon flurry" being an issue since i'd be jumping through hoops to get the two handed reach weapon flurriable, but is that an issue? if i were to either go sohei or take a cleric level and then take crusader flurry, are the rules intended to Not allow using the polearm for all the attacks? because if my GM didn't allow that, it's pretty much a dead build as far as i can tell. that would be a bummer.


Alejandro Acosta wrote:

"Take Quick draw and flurry throw with sai. Maybe throw anything so you can flurry throw Siangam. better damage than Shuriken. What about rope dart? You can flurry with it and when you're done you can pull the rope back like Scorpion or Raizo (Ninja Assassin). Or Kyoktesu Shoge.

I forgot to mention the rope dart has 20 ft. reach."

Sorry I forgot to ask if your monk was STR or DEX based. If he's dex based use the Rope Dart and pick up deadly aim. Which is like Power attack for ranged weapons. If he's STR then Kyoketsu Shoge (this is a reach weapon that disarms and grapples)and you can still Power atttack as normal. you can hurl them straight at an enemy or twirl them around so you still threaten. and you can flurry (their both Monk weapons) and you only need Exotic weapon Prof. and you can do it at 1st level. You can still use unarmed strikes while wielding it (one free hand, elbows, knees & legs). Str to damage applies normally.

i'm not really familiar with those feat chains, so i'll have to look into it, but i guess those would also fall apart if i couldn't use all of my flurry attacks with a single weapon like Atarlost mentioned might be an issue. hmm.


They're both Monk weapons. You can flurry with both normally. Try it and if you like it pick up deadly aim (for rope dart) or power attack (for Kyoketsu Shoge).

Deadly Aim (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.


Alejandro Acosta wrote:

They're both Monk weapons. You can flurry with both normally. Try it and if you like it pick up deadly aim (for rope dart) or power attack (for Kyoketsu Shoge).

i hope that's true, and i can certainly see why it would, but i think the potential issue is not that you can't flurry with the weapon but that the extra attacks need to come from unarmed or off-hand weapon attacks. that had never occurred to me before, but Atarlost's comment sounded to me as though that's what he was getting at. any thoughts on that?

in terms of your other stuff, i might look into the kyoketsu shoge.


elgabalawi wrote:

1. i hear ya about the sohei. every time i start thinking i should go that way and start looking at it more closely, i'm confronted with how unmonk like it feels.

2. i've seen multiple people state or imply that one can't attack after abundant stepping. this seems odd to me since under abundant step on the monk section, it states that using the ability is a move action. what gives?

3. if i give up on flurry, do you think i can still do enough hitting and damage with the monk's straight BAB? i'm not in love with flurry, i just want to be attacking with the spear, and actually making contact on my main attacks as well as on AoOs.

4. I really liked the idea i read somewhere of going for pushing assault so that i can push people to 15ft. away, attack them with the rest of my attacks with lunge, and then hit them with an AoO when they have to use a move action to get to me. do you think that's worth it?

1. Yeah, it's not only non-monk, it's also just not that good. (Unless you want to be a mounted monk, which is also just weird)

2. Dimension Door says "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn." There's a feat that let's you take your remaining actions, though. Even without, it's still an awesome ability.

3. What's enough? You won't do as much as a fighter, or as much as a monk who just stands there flurrying. (But even if you flurry the polearm a normal monk is going to beat you.) But you will still have the option of stepping to 5' and doing a flurry that way, when you really want someone dead now. I think focussing on damage with the polearm misses the point, though. Polearms are about control, not damage. It doesn't matter if you do half the damage if your target can never touch you.

4. Why not just take a 5' step back after you're done with them? What do you really gain by blowing all these abilities for this one trick?


Atarlost wrote:
If your GM doesn't permit single weapon flurry you need a non-flurry archetype. The only non-flurry monk that works as more than a dip is Sensei. You get a wannabe bard with a better fortitude save, but it's the best you can do.

What? MoMs is hands-down the best non-flurry archetype there is. (really it's the best melee archetype across the board)


Vestrial wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
If your GM doesn't permit single weapon flurry you need a non-flurry archetype. The only non-flurry monk that works as more than a dip is Sensei. You get a wannabe bard with a better fortitude save, but it's the best you can do.

What? MoMs is hands-down the best non-flurry archetype there is. (really it's the best melee archetype across the board)

MoMS does nothing to help you hit and you get two style access with a one level dip. Yet another archetype that's better as a one or two level dip on a proper martial than as a monk.

Not that any of the good styles work with a two handed polearm, mind you. Except Dragon, but Dragon doesn't do much without a reason to charge better than +2 attack with -2 AC. Monks can't pounce, aren't the scout rogue archetype, and apart from Sohei don't do lance charges.


elgabalawi wrote:
i totally hadn't thought of "single weapon flurry" being an issue since i'd be jumping through hoops to get the two handed reach weapon flurriable, but is that an issue?

well, flurry states the extra attack works like 2wf, so...

it's not really unviable to use a pole-arm though, with lunge, your UAS will over-lap the pole-arm range by 5',
and you of course can 5' step (and can make your attacks in any order AFAIK, so all pole-arm then all UAS for example - combined with lunge, your UAS and polearm now 'overlap' by 10')
but i think you really should consider how it would work if you couldn't flurry with polearm at all...
that doesn't mean that the polearm is not a crucial part of your fighting style.
for one, whenever you move, you can't flurry: attack with pole-arm.
you're attacking with more reach, so the enemy will likely provoke vs. the polearm if they move to attack you:: AoO with pole-arm.
the polearm's larger reach is drawing more AoOs from enemies across the board, especially with combat reflexes.
realize that all the AoOs are at full BAB, and they will contribute a disproportionate amount of your hits.
even flurrying with only UAS, the polearm can easily account for more than 50% of your attacks that hit.
of course, you can arrange to flurry with the pole-arm as well, and lunge is good for 'overlapping' UAS/polearm reach.
being able to use any god's favored weapon as a monk weapon (with feat) is pretty convenient.

re: sohei giving up stuff you might want, i would consider looking at qi gong archetype,
and seeing what else that sohei retains from vanilla monk that you really don't care about,
and use qi gong to swap that out to gain a abundant step/ dimension door type ability... why not?


elgabalawi wrote:
Alejandro Acosta wrote:

They're both Monk weapons. You can flurry with both normally. Try it and if you like it pick up deadly aim (for rope dart) or power attack (for Kyoketsu Shoge).

i hope that's true, and i can certainly see why it would, but i think the potential issue is not that you can't flurry with the weapon but that the extra attacks need to come from unarmed or off-hand weapon attacks. that had never occurred to me before, but Atarlost's comment sounded to me as though that's what he was getting at. any thoughts on that?

in terms of your other stuff, i might look into the kyoketsu shoge. [/QUOTE

no off hand for monk FoB as per the description. And you can use unarmed strikes and monk weapons interchangeably. Just need Exotic weapon prof. for Kyoketsu Shoge. Read the 1st & last paragraph of FoB description. all your flurry attacks can be with Kyoketsu Shoge. You can use either, or if they're adjacent to you (whichever does more damage)when their close. Just keep enchanting The Kyoketsu Shoge when you can. It'll be cheaper than Amulet of Mighty Fists. Get a Belt of Giant STR and it'll apply to both attack and damage for unarmed strikes and kyoketsu Shoge. Your monk is STR based, right?

In case your wondering, I do my stats by order of importance like this:
+Str > Wis > Dex > Con > Int > -Cha.
I treat my monks more like martial characters, so STR comes first. I dump CHA & INT in favor of STR. All my ability point increases go to STR as well. this helps attack rolls & damage and I don't need weapon finesse so I can take Exotic weapon prof. at 1st lvl instead. Then comes power attack. STAY SINGLE CLASS MONK.


Oh, and flurry with reach all you want. :)


Since you still have a free hand you can still use monk abilities. Stun, Deflect arrows, throw a shuriken (drawing shuriken is a free action because it counts as ammo), or a sai if you pick up quick draw, etc.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Marid Style gives you reach with unarmed strikes.


Atarlost wrote:

MoMS does nothing to help you hit and you get two style access with a one level dip. Yet another archetype that's better as a one or two level dip on a proper martial than as a monk.

Not that any of the good styles work with a two handed polearm, mind you. Except Dragon, but Dragon doesn't do much without a reason to charge better than +2 attack with -2 AC. Monks can't pounce, aren't the scout rogue archetype, and apart from Sohei don't do lance charges.

lol so the only thing of value from any archetype are to hit bonuses? You may want to re-read the style feats if you don't understand the value of having 3 or 4 styles up at the same time...


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Marid Style gives you reach with unarmed strikes.

But only when using Elemental Fist, and only once per round. A liberal GM might interpret that to mean all your attacks for the round are at reach (I would), but that's not RAW, strictly speaking.


Vestrial wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Marid Style gives you reach with unarmed strikes.
But only when using Elemental Fist, and only once per round. A liberal GM might interpret that to mean all your attacks for the round are at reach (I would), but that's not RAW, strictly speaking.

Plus you have to wait til 5th level.


I love this fight scene between a martial artist with a spear and another with a sword.

Hero, Jet Li Vs Donnie Yen


1. Yeah, it's not only non-monk, it's also just not that good. (Unless you want to be a mounted monk, which is also just weird)

2. Dimension Door says "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn." There's a feat that let's you take your remaining actions, though. Even without, it's still an awesome ability.

3. What's enough? You won't do as much as a fighter, or as much as a monk who just stands there flurrying. (But even if you flurry the polearm a normal monk is going to beat you.) But you will still have the option of stepping to 5' and doing a flurry that way, when you really want someone dead now. I think focussing on damage with the polearm misses the point, though. Polearms are about control, not damage. It doesn't matter if you do half the damage if your target can never touch you.

4. Why not just take a 5' step back after you're done with them? What do you really gain by blowing all these abilities for this one trick?

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2. ah, so the benefit of it being a move action is that i could standard action first and then use it. got it.

3. yeah, i hear ya. my current character is a trip, disarm, dazzling display, battlefield control type, so that's part of why i'm leaning away from focusing on that too much again (and i just like the aesthetics of of that ninja spear fighting), so i was hoping i could be useful enough by focusing on being an AoO buzz saw of sorts.

4. i guess i figured that folks were going to be up in my face whenever they could, so on my turn i'd be stuck using the 5' foot step to back up before attacking. then i could pushing assault and lunge for my attacks which would guarantee an AoO if they came back at me on their turn as well as them only getting one attack as they'd have to move 10'.

I'm not sure how viable that all is, but it's where i was coming from.


Blueluck wrote:

I love this fight scene between a martial artist with a spear and another with a sword.

Hero, Jet Li Vs Donnie Yen

that's the exact scene that most often comes to mind when i think about what i'm trying to get to with this character.


Alejandro Acosta wrote:
elgabalawi wrote:
Alejandro Acosta wrote:

They're both Monk weapons. You can flurry with both normally. Try it and if you like it pick up deadly aim (for rope dart) or power attack (for Kyoketsu Shoge).

In case your wondering, I do my stats by order of importance like this:

+Str > Wis > Dex > Con > Int > -Cha.
I treat my monks more like martial characters, so STR comes first. I dump CHA & INT in favor of STR. All my ability point increases go to STR as well. this helps attack rolls & damage and I don't need weapon finesse so I can take Exotic weapon prof. at 1st lvl instead. Then comes power attack. STAY SINGLE CLASS MONK.

that's the same stat priority i was envisioning. but part of my problem is that first level is when we get extra feats to use (assuming human), but so many combat feats require a +1 BAB. And unless i misread or misunderstood, that's true for exotic weapon prof. as well weapon focus, power attack, pushing assault, and furious assault. argh.

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