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Player just had his sword sundered and now he's mad at the DM


Gamer Talk

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VM mercenario wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

My group has organized gold as a back-up for various things, but they'd still be annoyed if I broke all their weapons and armor five times over just to reduce their savings, which they usually use either for Ressurection spells or for crafting magic items that boost their efficiency in survival and/or combat situations. Hell, the least prepared for this situation would be the new guy, who's currently also has the strongest character thanks to good stats and feats.

She has no back-up weapons whatsoever, just her +2 Fey Bane Aldori Dueling Sword and her +1 Composite Longbow.

Dude enough with the straw. Are you building an army of scarecrows or something?

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT YOU SHOULD SUNDER ALL THE EQUIPMENT OF THE PARTY!!!
They're saying that a sunder once in a while is okay and that players shouldn't get all stupid and angry just because it happened once.
And you do know the sword from the stone does get broken and Arthur has to go on a quest to get a new sword from the lady of the lake right? Using Arthur as an argument against sundering is just plain silly.

So you're seeing strawmen while making your own? Okay then.

See that bolded part? I agree with it, if the party knows they might get Sundered when they never have before.

That so hard to get? It shouldn't really be, and what example I used has no bearing on the topic at hand, and you know it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Icyshadow wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Stuff...

What would Arthur be without Excalibur?

The hero's gear is a part of his legend, you know.

He's got backups.

Wikipedia wrote:
Excalibur is by no means the only weapon associated with Arthur, nor the only sword. Welsh tradition also knew of a dagger named Carnwennan and a spear named Rhongomyniad that belonged to him. Carnwennan ("Little White-Hilt") first appears in Culhwch and Olwen, where it was used by Arthur to slice the Very Black Witch in half.[17] Rhongomyniad ("spear" + "striker, slayer") is also first mentioned in Culhwch, although only in passing; it appears as simply Ron ("spear") in Geoffrey's Historia.[18] In the Alliterative Morte Arthure, a Middle English poem, there is mention of Clarent, a sword of peace meant for knighting and ceremonies as opposed to battle, which is stolen and then used to kill Arthur by Mordred.[19] The Prose Lancelot of the Vulgate Cycle mentions a sword called Seure, which belonged to the king but was used by Lancelot in one battle.[20]

There's also the bit where you might rather have the scabbard, seeing as...

Quote:
Excalibur's scabbard was said to have powers of its own. Injuries from losses of blood, for example, would not kill the bearer. In some tellings, wounds received by one wearing the scabbard did not bleed at all.

<_< I like Arthurian legend.

Silver Crusade

Scintillae wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Stuff...

What would Arthur be without Excalibur?

The hero's gear is a part of his legend, you know.

He's got backups.

Wikipedia wrote:
Excalibur is by no means the only weapon associated with Arthur, nor the only sword. Welsh tradition also knew of a dagger named Carnwennan and a spear named Rhongomyniad that belonged to him. Carnwennan ("Little White-Hilt") first appears in Culhwch and Olwen, where it was used by Arthur to slice the Very Black Witch in half.[17] Rhongomyniad ("spear" + "striker, slayer") is also first mentioned in Culhwch, although only in passing; it appears as simply Ron ("spear") in Geoffrey's Historia.[18] In the Alliterative Morte Arthure, a Middle English poem, there is mention of Clarent, a sword of peace meant for knighting and ceremonies as opposed to battle, which is stolen and then used to kill Arthur by Mordred.[19] The Prose Lancelot of the Vulgate Cycle mentions a sword called Seure, which belonged to the king but was used by Lancelot in one battle.[20]

There's also the bit where you might rather have the scabbard, seeing as...

Quote:
Excalibur's scabbard was said to have powers of its own. Injuries from losses of blood, for example, would not kill the bearer. In some tellings, wounds received by one wearing the scabbard did not bleed at all.
<_< I like Arthurian legend.

Now that you've cleared that up I'm sure we will get an Elric example next.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Icyshadow wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

My group has organized gold as a back-up for various things, but they'd still be annoyed if I broke all their weapons and armor five times over just to reduce their savings, which they usually use either for Ressurection spells or for crafting magic items that boost their efficiency in survival and/or combat situations. Hell, the least prepared for this situation would be the new guy, who's currently also has the strongest character thanks to good stats and feats.

She has no back-up weapons whatsoever, just her +2 Fey Bane Aldori Dueling Sword and her +1 Composite Longbow.

Dude enough with the straw. Are you building an army of scarecrows or something?

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT YOU SHOULD SUNDER ALL THE EQUIPMENT OF THE PARTY!!!
They're saying that a sunder once in a while is okay and that players shouldn't get all stupid and angry just because it happened once.
And you do know the sword from the stone does get broken and Arthur has to go on a quest to get a new sword from the lady of the lake right? Using Arthur as an argument against sundering is just plain silly.

So you're seeing strawmen while making your own? Okay then.

See that bolded part? I agree with it, if the party knows they might get Sundered when they never have before.

That so hard to get? It shouldn't really be, and what example I used has no bearing on the topic at hand, and you know it.

That's now a strawman? You used that example yourself.

Sundering's legal. Rare, but legal. So is petrification, baleful polymorph, and a good old TPK. Should I warn you about everything your characters could run into? Or would you like to deal with the single incident of a sunder that's unlikely to repeat, hitch up your big girl pants, and ask the DM for a sidequest to replace the weapon?

And your example DOES have bearing. It presents to the readers the understanding you have of the argument. If you're going for a ridiculous and over the top example, well...

Shadow Lodge

5 people marked this as a favorite.

I love it when people end their arguments with "and you know it".

Makes me wish I was telepathic - and at cross-internet range! - too.

Silver Crusade

Scintillae wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Stuff...

What would Arthur be without Excalibur?

The hero's gear is a part of his legend, you know.

He's got backups.

Wikipedia wrote:
Excalibur is by no means the only weapon associated with Arthur, nor the only sword. Welsh tradition also knew of a dagger named Carnwennan and a spear named Rhongomyniad that belonged to him. Carnwennan ("Little White-Hilt") first appears in Culhwch and Olwen, where it was used by Arthur to slice the Very Black Witch in half.[17] Rhongomyniad ("spear" + "striker, slayer") is also first mentioned in Culhwch, although only in passing; it appears as simply Ron ("spear") in Geoffrey's Historia.[18] In the Alliterative Morte Arthure, a Middle English poem, there is mention of Clarent, a sword of peace meant for knighting and ceremonies as opposed to battle, which is stolen and then used to kill Arthur by Mordred.[19] The Prose Lancelot of the Vulgate Cycle mentions a sword called Seure, which belonged to the king but was used by Lancelot in one battle.[20]

There's also the bit where you might rather have the scabbard, seeing as...

Quote:
Excalibur's scabbard was said to have powers of its own. Injuries from losses of blood, for example, would not kill the bearer. In some tellings, wounds received by one wearing the scabbard did not bleed at all.
<_< I like Arthurian legend.

Oh wait! That doesn't count because Arthur went outside the WBL.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DrDeth wrote:

It is a cheap move. I mean- why would the BBEG sunder the BBN’s weapon, since the BBEG expects to win, and thus he’s breaking his own loot?

Pc’s rarely sunder the Bad guys stuff for that very reason.

Now sure, if it’s a Ogre-bane weapon, the equivalent of “Biter” or “beater”, known and hated by all Ogre-kind, then that’s just good RPing.

Stuff is both a reward for the PC and a reward for the player for having done well. This is why we no longer rain experience points/levels by undead touch.

1) He's an Ogre, the PCs are medium sized. Their weapons aren't as useful.

2) Unlike the PC, the Ogre knows that someone can cast 'Make Whole'
3) He's an Ogre, they're not known for being real smart.
4) He's an Ogre, can't detect magic and therefore doesn't realize that the PC has a b~!~+in' magical sword

Also, by that logic, why would ANYONE ever take Sunder? Why is it even an option if everyone is so enlightened that they would never want to destroy valuable loot? If a stat block has Improved Sunder, as a GM, I am going to assume it's part of their standard tactics.

Regardless, assuming the PC is an adult, he should act like one. If he rage quits, the game is likely better off without him.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

People seem to be more concerned with the rules, and the tacit assumptions of the setting in regards to gear.

As a GM or a player, I tend to worry more about the story and how it compares to the S&S stories I grew up on. How often did Conan, or Fafhred & the Grey Mouser lose everything that mattered t them and have to deal?

I'm only slightly younger than the original crusty grognards that were playing OD&D and Chainmail. It used to be that you didn't get XP. You got gold and treasure, and that converted to XP. One day I will use a variation of this... for a more Conan feeling game, you get treasure, and to convert it to XP, you have to waste it. Anything of direct in game value (magic items, armor, weapons, etc.) doesn't become XP. Only squandered wealth becomes XP.

"Hey Crag, I'm broke..."

"Yes, yes... I am too. I hear there's a temple of Set, filled with gold and gems not a week's ride from here."


Unseelie wrote:

I'm only slightly younger than the original crusty grognards that were playing OD&D and Chainmail. It used to be that you didn't get XP. You got gold and treasure, and that converted to XP. One day I will use a variation of this... for a more Conan feeling game, you get treasure, and to convert it to XP, you have to waste it. Anything of direct in game value (magic items, armor, weapons, etc.) doesn't become XP. Only squandered wealth becomes XP.

"Hey Crag, I'm broke..."

"Yes, yes... I am too. I hear there's a temple of Set, filled with gold and gems not a week's ride from here."

There are a couple of games that do this already, or variations of the theme.

There are also games where you could either have +2 Swordsmanship or a +2 Sword. The effect is the same.


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Icyshadow wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

My group has organized gold as a back-up for various things, but they'd still be annoyed if I broke all their weapons and armor five times over just to reduce their savings, which they usually use either for Ressurection spells or for crafting magic items that boost their efficiency in survival and/or combat situations. Hell, the least prepared for this situation would be the new guy, who's currently also has the strongest character thanks to good stats and feats.

She has no back-up weapons whatsoever, just her +2 Fey Bane Aldori Dueling Sword and her +1 Composite Longbow.

Dude enough with the straw. Are you building an army of scarecrows or something?

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT YOU SHOULD SUNDER ALL THE EQUIPMENT OF THE PARTY!!!
They're saying that a sunder once in a while is okay and that players shouldn't get all stupid and angry just because it happened once.
And you do know the sword from the stone does get broken and Arthur has to go on a quest to get a new sword from the lady of the lake right? Using Arthur as an argument against sundering is just plain silly.

So you're seeing strawmen while making your own? Okay then.

See that bolded part? I agree with it, if the party knows they might get Sundered when they never have before.

That so hard to get? It shouldn't really be, and what example I used has no bearing on the topic at hand, and you know it.

I'm not sure you know what strawman means...

Shadow Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
WBL may not be a binding rule, but the monster CRs are built around it as a core assumption. and they assume you will have specific magic items at specific levels. not having the gear means you can't play with the baddie you need it for.
No, it means they will be harder without it. Some may be impossible, but losing one item does not lose you the entire game.

Why is the assumption always made that if a GM doesn't bind themselves to WBL strictly, that their players are necessarily getting less than WBL?

Shadow Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Irontruth wrote:

In a game I run demo's for I tell the players:

"If I ever deny you your weapon or companions, I am explicitly authorizing you to reach across the table and slap me. Then proceed to describe how your character uses the weapon anyways."

The games you run have awful generous prisons.

Shadow Lodge

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
And the point in buying a mansion is roleplaying, really. Sure, there are some practical advantages, but it's mostly a roleplaying choice.

Or maybe they are tired of being murderous hobos, and want to try out being murderous homeowners.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Icyshadow wrote:
Does that make me a bad DM?

Well, I do assume incompetence on your part until otherwise proven wrong.


shallowsoul wrote:

Basically the BBEG, ogre fighter, sundered the barbarians magical greatsword and now the player is pissed to the point of rage quitting. We all explained that sundering is a legit rule but he wouldn't here of it. He's angry at the DM for pulling a "cheap" move as he calls it. The DM did explain that the game will be played by the rules as written but the player just won't listen.

Ever have this in your game?

Dm did nothing wrong. Ogres make fantastic sunderers, and it is a sensible tactic for such a huge creature. Players often become too invested in their kit, too interested in their loot and not the adventure. If weapons are taken/destroyed I've seen people flip and sulk.

Which is a shameful display.


Kthulhu wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

In a game I run demo's for I tell the players:

"If I ever deny you your weapon or companions, I am explicitly authorizing you to reach across the table and slap me. Then proceed to describe how your character uses the weapon anyways."

The games you run have awful generous prisons.

Feel free to make assumptions about my game if you like, even though you can't actually tell me anything factual about it, like what system is uses.

Silver Crusade

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If your man had stuck around long enough then he would have gotten a +1 frost adamantine large greatsword but since he rage quit he got nothing.

I don't run my games where being level X means you are fighting CR X all the time. Sometimes lesser creatures get used in the mix because it fits the geography of the world I have built. Everything they come across isn't expected, same goes for gear, like I said in an earlier post.

Magic items in my games mean more than just an expected math filler. In my world dwarves are considered kings of crafting so if you want a powerful weapon then you go to them. In some games I run, you can't craft anything higher than a plus three. Anything above that is considered legendary and lost to the world. The only way to gain such items is to find them.


VM mercenario wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

My group has organized gold as a back-up for various things, but they'd still be annoyed if I broke all their weapons and armor five times over just to reduce their savings, which they usually use either for Ressurection spells or for crafting magic items that boost their efficiency in survival and/or combat situations. Hell, the least prepared for this situation would be the new guy, who's currently also has the strongest character thanks to good stats and feats.

She has no back-up weapons whatsoever, just her +2 Fey Bane Aldori Dueling Sword and her +1 Composite Longbow.

Dude enough with the straw. Are you building an army of scarecrows or something?

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT YOU SHOULD SUNDER ALL THE EQUIPMENT OF THE PARTY!!!
They're saying that a sunder once in a while is okay and that players shouldn't get all stupid and angry just because it happened once.
And you do know the sword from the stone does get broken and Arthur has to go on a quest to get a new sword from the lady of the lake right? Using Arthur as an argument against sundering is just plain silly.

So you're seeing strawmen while making your own? Okay then.

See that bolded part? I agree with it, if the party knows they might get Sundered when they never have before.

That so hard to get? It shouldn't really be, and what example I used has no bearing on the topic at hand, and you know it.

I'm not sure you know what strawman means...

...oh, I am quite sure. I won a debate contest back in 9th grade and got in second place in another in high school.

To sum it up, a strawman argument is misrepresentation of the other side's point, which has clearly been done here multiple times.

Also, I'd say that accusing me of a strawman when it was not the case would actually be an ad hominem, which is also a fallacy in a debate.

Kthulhu wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Does that make me a bad DM?
Well, I do assume incompetence on your part until otherwise proven wrong.

You're free to assume that, but the fact is my party hasn't found reasons to leave the table or switch DMs while I've been the DM of our Kingmaker game.


Kthulhu wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

In a game I run demo's for I tell the players:

"If I ever deny you your weapon or companions, I am explicitly authorizing you to reach across the table and slap me. Then proceed to describe how your character uses the weapon anyways."

The games you run have awful generous prisons.

I am pretty sure that standard policy is to store prisoners' gear in lockers right outside the cells. What kind of Evil Overlord would you be if you didn't give the heroes (and I use that term loosely) a fighting chance?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Icyshadow, the example you gave is unrealistic and extreme to the point of being beyond ridiculous;

"but they'd still be annoyed if I broke all their weapons and armor five times over just to reduce their savings..."

Seriously, who wouldn't be annoyed by this? I have never in my 20+ years of gaming have heard of a DM who breaks the players entire arsenal 5x over. You got called out because your example is completely skewed and overblown. You should go into politics.


Josh M. wrote:

Icyshadow, the example you gave is unrealistic and extreme to the point of being beyond ridiculous;

"but they'd still be annoyed if I broke all their weapons and armor five times over just to reduce their savings..."

Seriously, who wouldn't be annoyed by this? I have never in my 20+ years of gaming have heard of a DM who breaks the players entire arsenal 5x over. You got called out because your example is completed skewed and overblown. You should go into politics.

It was as extreme and unrealistic as the "spent gold magically reappearing in the party's gold pouch" example before that.

Now I'm just wondering why this is even an issue anymore since we all agree in the end that it's a DM choice whether to sunder or not.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I've noticed that people on these forums get too caught up on what could happen instead of what does happen.


Not in the case of those who've suffered of what has happened.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oh yeah, I bet all this stuff happens on a regular basis.


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So a DM really did sunder the entire party's equipment supplies no less than 5 times? I had no idea...


That's not what I meant, though I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there has done that.

Also to clarify, my earlier post was made in a broader sense than merely the issue of sundering.

People who have had bad DM experiences tend to highlight it more as a problem than someone who hasn't.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Icyshadow wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Does that make me a bad DM?
Well, I do assume incompetence on your part until otherwise proven wrong.
You're free to assume that, but the fact is my party hasn't found reasons to leave the table or switch DMs while I've been the DM of our Kingmaker game.

Don't take it personal dude...after all, you were the guy who taught me to assume that a GM is incompetent and power-mad jerkass until proven otherwise. You don't get a free pass on that.

:D

Andoran RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

I think I'm going to sunder something in my Carrion Crown game next week.

Shadow Lodge

5 people marked this as a favorite.

I like to sunder PCs. Does that count?

Andoran

Icyshadow wrote:

That's not what I meant, though I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there has done that.

Also to clarify, my earlier post was made in a broader sense than merely the issue of sundering.

People who have had bad DM experiences tend to highlight it more as a problem than someone who hasn't.

So because you think there might have been this time when this guy...

GM control is self-regulating. If a guy is a bad GM, he won't be able to get 4 people to come to the table.

I suspect many player complaints come from the guy who got kicked out by the rest of the group.

Andoran

3 people marked this as a favorite.
TOZ wrote:
I like to sunder PCs. Does that count?

You've been, Sunderstruck!

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I tell them not to make their characters with the broken condition, but they just don't listen. It's so easy to destroy them.


TOZ wrote:
I like to sunder PCs. Does that count?

Most assuredly! Grip their flimsy shoulders firmly, lever their fragile ribs on your knee, and PULL.

Cleaving through soft flesh and brittle bone is fun in its own right, I must admit. But there is just something so pleasantly personal about doing it by hand.

Andoran RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

6 people marked this as a favorite.

You know, my Jade Regent samurai is very katana-focused. If somebody sundered my sword, I don't think I'd get salty, I'd just kick the crap out of him while I whipped out my longspear. S*## happens. Hell, I didn't even own a katana until 3rd level.

If it got sundered a second time within a couple sessions, I'd -_- but I'd fight on.

If it got sundered a third time within a couple sessions, I'd ask the GM if he was trying to tell me something.

If it got sundered a fourth time within a couple sessions, it'd be time for a serious chat.

I guess the point I'm making is it would take an awful lot of chain-sundering my crap to make me start thinking about ragequitting.

Andoran

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I had a 3rd level Paladin fail his save against three separate shatter spells, losing his sword, shield, and full plate in two rounds.

He drew his morningstar and charged.


Not Pathfinder, but no genuine reason that it couldn't have been:

The party is attacked by some overly large, man-eating cat-fish frog hybrids while trying to cross a bog to get to a ruined castle.

One player (each player having a trio of 0-level characters) steps up and slices one in half with his longsword, and drops it into the murky water as it slams into hard stone on the other side of the beast (because sometimes a critical in that game is both good and bad) - didn't stop him from grabbing something else as a weapon next round.

His second character fumbled and dropped his spear into the water as well, and the third nearly dropped his weapon but caught it awkwardly in another fumble.

The player that experienced all that misfortune all at once just went "crap, I hope I can at least find that sword later." and had his character find rubble small enough to use as weapons for the rest of the battle.

Of course, I believe the major difference in approach the player took (solving the problem in stride rather than getting frustrated) is specifically because that game involves your gear breaking, dropping things, bad stuff happening, and characters frequently being near to death and still having some consequence apply permanently when they manage to survive near-death situations.

Basically, I think that people only get rage-quit mad about losing a sword because games in general tend to be on "no problem" mode - keeping characters alive because "death isn't fun" rather than taking an approach of "death should be fun too, so go try it out."

Andoran

Orthos wrote:

I love it when people end their arguments with "and you know it".

Makes me wish I was telepathic - and at cross-internet range! - too.

Maybe they are trying to cast "Imbue Knowledge" and we just all made the will save.


TOZ wrote:
I like to sunder PCs. Does that count?

I like to sunder players.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:

I had a 3rd level Paladin fail his save against three separate shatter spells, losing his sword, shield, and full plate in two rounds.

Ouch. That is a lot of loss in one encounter.

On a side note: Did the OP ever say how old the player was?

The reason I ask is the reaction would seem to make more sense if we were talking about an 8 year old vs a 30 year old acting that way.


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danielc wrote:

On a side note: Did the OP ever say how old the player was?

The reason I ask is the reaction would seem to make more sense if we were talking about an 8 year old vs a 30 year old acting that way.

Except in the case where the youngster is the age where saying "no," about anything causes them to burst into tantrum or tears - I've never seen one young player do anything but take a sudden down-swing in their PCs luck as anything other than motivation to re-double their effort.

Rather than bawling and not wanting to play anymore, the kids I've taught to game (even when I was only about 12 myself) would say something like "He broke my sword?! That jerk, I'll show him!" and formulate a plan to take their revenge - typically in a very brutal and immediate fashion, much like how a youngster hit by another youngster is very likely to immediately hit back with the heftiest object within arm's reach.

Perhaps I am just used to dealing with youths that are trying to act older, rather than maintain toddler behaviors for as long as the world will let them.

Assistant Software Developer

I removed a post and a reply to it. Chill.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:

I had a 3rd level Paladin fail his save against three separate shatter spells, losing his sword, shield, and full plate in two rounds.

He drew his morningstar and charged.

Faith manages. ;)


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Guys, something highly similar just happened to me. It mostly revolves around my own stupidity.

Basically, I've gone a while acting like elven curve blades are one-handed weapons.

A player of mine who tends to lean towards powergaming (in the "strength over story" way) has a PC who wields two elven curve blades, and he's very fond of them.

However, another player wants to use a bastard sword. He was wondering why curve blades were so much better, and I realized my error.

Okay, tenses are kind of weird in this story. I'm distracted, so please put up with the subpar prose.

Anyways, here's where I make a choice. I send the player a message explaining the error and apologizing. I ask him to have his character buy new weapons and sell the old ones. I tell him I won't inflict any net loss of gold on his character, and I'll let him replace the feat he spent on Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

His response: "Are you serious!? I based my character off of those swords!"

For the record, this player has a bit of a history of quietly reworking his backstory to suit his PC's purposes (he says he wrote it up, but keeps putting it off emailing it to me).

I'm sharing this because I'm not sure I made the right call, and because I thought it was somewhat relevant to the discussion.


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"That item is essential to my character concept!"

I have indeed heard this, although this was involving a ring of sustenance. Character needs to have more character and be less defined by their equipment.

Shadow Lodge

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

"That item is essential to my character concept!"

I have indeed heard this, although this was involving a ring of sustenance. Character needs to have more character and be less defined by their equipment.

Unfortunately that's one of the consequences of having a system where certain items are essentially expected/required as the characters progress.

Something that I hope Pathfinder 2E gets rid of...although I believe that will involve dumping the d20 system entirely.


Required? Not really true, or at least, not true from what games I've seen.

If the players are in a world where they can't always craft or buy what they want, then they have to adapt. This doesn't mean they suddenly explode when they get a certain level. They have been dealing with the foes and problems all the way. Their teamwork may get better or be forced to, against the worst foes and most dangerous situations.

On the ring of sustenance, it wasn't needed by the party member, they just didn't want to deal with food, water and needing sleep... in the survival setting I was running in and around Isger.

A friend passed along a story to me the other week, he saw some powergamers in a high magic game. They got laid flat. Why? No teamwork, and too focused on their own damage and equipment they were not working together. The friend reminisced that these poor fools were at all like our old party, only mid magic, not heavy on the power gaming who together took down our foes easily because our tactics were sorted and our kit was average, but up to the task. Mmmm, +1 longspear.

On sundered weapons, it has already been said, where are the mw back-ups, or as I prefer, the small version of your favoured weapon.

Silver Crusade

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If a player throws all his eggs in one basket and something happens then that's his fault.

The attitude I get from some players is the fact that they "want" to be able to put all their eggs in one basket but they want the DM to cater to that and essentially take away all the risk.

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