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RPG Superstar 2015

Player just had his sword sundered and now he's mad at the DM


Gamer Talk

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

sundering the barbarian's magic sword is actually a permanent wealth penalty. unless you modify the loot to accommodate a better sword for him/her.

any wealth penalty is permanent if the player has to expend resources to replace it.

potions and wands do not magically restock themselves.

most players would rather build a new character at the Same Party Level with level appropriate gear than pay the out of pocket cost for a resurrection.

hell, a lot of players would rather have the new character than take even a minor permanent penalty.

nobody wants to play the blind from losing his eyes to a critical hit with a bow, deaf from a permanent spell, fighter with a -6 to strength from bestow curse, a missing leg from the critical fumble deck, a damaged hook hand from the called shot rules, multiple permanent negative levels from various undead, permanent confusion from a failed save to an insanity spell, perpetually staggered from his wounded leg, a crapton of constitution drain from a potent poison applied by an assassin, not a coin to his name due to all the resources he spent coming back or compensating for penalties, and inferior busted equipment looted from gnolls because they were the only thing he could kill that matched his size with all his penalties, no matter how many free levels you gave him in the end.

I really don't think I an agree with any of this sentiment. What it says to me is that people don't like to suffer negative consequences that aren't easily, perhaps even near instantly, overcome rather than character or story defining. And, as far as I'm concerned, that's a sad insight on the state of players in the hobby.

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

most players would rather build a new character at the Same Party Level with level appropriate gear than pay the out of pocket cost for a resurrection.

hell, a lot of players would rather have the new character than take even a minor permanent penalty.

I really have never even HEARD of this sort of behavior until I came on these forums. Much less experienced it in my games.

I sure as heck wouldn't allow it.


Josh M. wrote:


I still disagree with it being a penalty regardless of whether "compensation" was offered or not. It's part of the game.

Well, technically, it is a penalty--anything bad that happens to the PC is. I agree with you, though--losing crap is part of the game.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

most players would rather build a new character at the Same Party Level with level appropriate gear than pay the out of pocket cost for a resurrection.

hell, a lot of players would rather have the new character than take even a minor permanent penalty.

More generalized blanket statements. Sounds like you play with some petty, un-invested players.

The point of this thread was sundering gear, not killing PC's.

Spoiler:

I need a Snickers bar, I'm hungry and getting cranky, apparently.

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Orthos wrote:
I really have never even HEARD of this sort of behavior until I came on these forums. Much less experienced it in my games.

Same here.

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.

For what it's worth, I've never sundered, mostly because I was unfamiliar with the rules for it in 3.5 and an appropriate opponent has not yet come up in my PF games. There's an NPC in Kingmaker who it seems very appropriate for, though, so I will probably use it on him.

I have, however, tormented and taunted my parties with Rust Monsters and Black Puddings in the past. It was gleefully fun to watch the Dual-Scimitar Weilding, Mithril-chain-clad Barbarian in my Savage Tide game, who in every other encounter would charge in the middle of the fray and ginsu everything, shriek like a schoolgirl and cower behind the Psion and the Ninja. And even more so to watch the Warforged Cavalier and his mechanical horse mount do a complete about-face and exit the room at top speed.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Orthos wrote:
I have, however, tormented and taunted my parties with Rust Monsters and Black Puddings in the past. It was gleefully fun to watch the Dual-Scimitar Weilding, Mithril-chain-clad Barbarian in my Savage Tide game, who in every other encounter would charge in the middle of the fray and ginsu everything, shriek like a schoolgirl and cower behind the Psion and the Ninja. And even more so to watch the Warforged Cavalier and his mechanical horse mount do a complete about-face and exit the room at top speed.

STAP:
LOL. Lightless Depths, black pudding. My player's wildshaped druid claw/claw/bited it--then got pwned by the four puddings that resulted.
Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Charlie Bell wrote:
Orthos wrote:
I have, however, tormented and taunted my parties with Rust Monsters and Black Puddings in the past. It was gleefully fun to watch the Dual-Scimitar Weilding, Mithril-chain-clad Barbarian in my Savage Tide game, who in every other encounter would charge in the middle of the fray and ginsu everything, shriek like a schoolgirl and cower behind the Psion and the Ninja. And even more so to watch the Warforged Cavalier and his mechanical horse mount do a complete about-face and exit the room at top speed.
** spoiler omitted **

YEP, that encounter! In the barbarian's own words: "Gimme a fiend from the lowest pits of hell and I'll charge in no fear. Have me risk losing the really nice mithril breastplate, and I'm scrambling like a girl."

Spoiler:
They had the encounter with Chunkus the Rust Monster back in Bullywug Gambit, but all they did was knock a chandelier down and let him munch on it while they beat the chief senseless. The pacifist Bard adopted him and he ended up helping the party free some chained "Wave Witches" from a pirate ship they encountered and later claimed in Sea Wyvern's Wake.

At the end of SWW the Bard died to the Mother-of-All though, and Chunkus got passed to the Half-Fey Spirit Shaman who retired in Farshore. He ended up helping during the pirate attack two chapters later by eating their swords.


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Josh M. wrote:

I disagree on the "wealth penalty" thing. Your character's in-game wealth is a finite resource. Things are going to happen in-game that are going to make your character spend that resource on staying alive; potions, curse removals, food, etc. Repairing broken equipment is pretty standard fare for any profession, and when your profession involves hitting things as hard as you can with your "tools," sometimes you have to spend a little gold to keep things working.

Honestly? The whole "wealth penalty" idea reeks of entitlement. As if from day 1, your character's wealth can and will ONLY be spent on better stuff and never to shore up weaknesses and keep equipment viable. I call shenanigans.

Is spending gold in town to get a Restoration spell cast on you a "Wealth penalty" as well? Are CLW potions a "wealth penalty?" How about food?

As a DM, I don't even like the idea of sundering a PC's gear, but it's a legal, viable combat option and it can come up whenever the DM damn well feels like it. A polite DM warns players ahead of time that tactics like this exist in the setting, but there's no contract anywhere or any rule that says "The DM must not do anything that might affect anything on a PC."

Considering that WBL is in the core rulebook as a measure of the magically enhanced equipment that one has, and any destroyed irreplacable weapons or used consumables do not count as usable wealth anymore. does mean, that buying a restoration in town or buying a potion is indeed a wealth penalty and delays the acquisition of equipment. the penalty is relative to players who didn't have to take the penalty.

when you sunder the hypothetical barbarian's greatsword. you pretty much should include an equivalent or slightly better greatsword in the soon to be aquired treasure as compensation for the one you shattered.

wealth is a very precious resource in pathfinder, and misplaced wealth, such as even being a single copper piece behind the richest PC, can cost you your life. just as being even a single experience point behind can.


Orthos wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

most players would rather build a new character at the Same Party Level with level appropriate gear than pay the out of pocket cost for a resurrection.

hell, a lot of players would rather have the new character than take even a minor permanent penalty.

I really have never even HEARD of this sort of behavior until I came on these forums. Much less experienced it in my games.

I sure as heck wouldn't allow it.

i would allow it, only because a minium of 7,000 gold in diamonds, a minimum of 1,010 gold in spellcasting services and 2 weeks of downtime is a lot of resources to waste when a new PC at the same APL with level appropriate gear could potentially be a lot more expedient. in fact, 8,010 gold and 2 weeks to come back could mean drastically delaying the plot, it could mean that a player is out of the game and bored for quite a while as they await ressurection, and it could mean that the PC in question lost a very important piece of equipment to afford the revival.

it is also less bothersome, to have a New PC suddenly fall from the sky and allow the player to continue playing.

which is why i keep at least 3 backup characters of different types on reserve at APL with level appropriate wealth. either to fill in a needed role, expediently get myself back into the game, or serve as pregen or cohort fodder.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
when you sunder the hypothetical barbarian's greatsword. you pretty much should include an equivalent or slightly better greatsword in the soon to be aquired treasure as compensation for the one you shattered.

No, you do not. You may, but nowhere is it a requirement, or even a suggestion.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013

2 people marked this as a favorite.

If you don't like the penalties for death, play it smart and safe. Adventuring is a hazardous profession.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
No, you do not. You may, but nowhere is it a requirement, or even a suggestion.

But if you don't, then the player will just declare his or her whole character broken and ruined and then demand that they be allowed to play an entirely new character (of the same level as the last one of course)...

[/end sarcasm]

Shadow Lodge

Digitalelf wrote:
But if you don't, then the player will just declare his or her whole character broken and ruined and then demand that they be allowed to play an entirely new character (of the same level as the last of course)...

And I will wish them luck in finding a DM willing to allow them to.

DigitalElf wrote:
[/end sarcasm]

...oh.


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Charlie Bell wrote:
If you don't like the penalties for death, play it smart and safe. Adventuring is a hazardous profession.

i have gone through at least 4 PCs per completed adventure path, and have never once payed for a single Resurrection. i keep backup characters on reserve for that reason.

the penalty for bringing in a new PC is not the drain on party resources that is called a Resurrecton, but instead, the not getting a share of the haul from my previous PCs carcass, and the not getting a share of the hauls from which my previous PC died in. that is quite a fair penalty for bringing a new character at APL with level appropriate wealth.

unlike Ressurections, which leads to more wasteful resource expenditure to sustain the PC whom had to keep getting ressurected because he/she bothered to get it done even once. being ressurected even once is a huge drain on party resources.


Digitalelf wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
No, you do not. You may, but nowhere is it a requirement, or even a suggestion.

But if you don't, then the player will just declare his or her whole character broken and ruined and then demand that they be allowed to play an entirely new character (of the same level as the last one of course)...

[/end sarcasm]

i'd rather include the compensation loot within the next 2-4 hauls than have the barbarian complain.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
i'd rather include the compensation loot within the next 2-4 hauls than have the barbarian complain.

I'd just get rid of the barbarian.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


Considering that WBL is in the core rulebook as a measure of the magically enhanced equipment that one has, and any destroyed irreplacable weapons or used consumables do not count as usable wealth anymore. does mean, that buying a restoration in town or buying a potion is indeed a wealth penalty and delays the acquisition of equipment. the penalty is relative to players who didn't have to take the penalty.

when you sunder the hypothetical barbarian's greatsword. you pretty much should include an equivalent or slightly better greatsword in the soon to be aquired treasure as compensation for the one you shattered.

wealth is a very precious resource in pathfinder, and misplaced wealth, such as even being a single copper piece behind the richest PC, can cost you your life. just...

Wealth by level is a guideline for balancing a campaign in line with the assumptions built into creature CRs. It's not a necessary rule, nor does it imply much about how that WBL is distributed among the PC's gear. So its utility in this case is pretty limited.

But I find your assertion that being a copper behind the richest PC is a matter of life and death is way off. The game tolerates a lot more variance than that.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
i have gone through at least 4 PCs per completed adventure path, and have never once payed for a single Resurrection. i keep backup characters on reserve for that reason.

Wow... Just WOW...

I know we all have differing play styles (and that's cool, to each their own I guess), but this is just SO foreign a concept. I'm sorry, but I just cannot wrap my head around playing like this...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
i'd rather include the compensation loot within the next 2-4 hauls than have the barbarian complain.
I'd just get rid of the barbarian.

I'd be inclined to leave that up to the other players/PCs. Most games I play in, we'll give the character behind in wealth (because of disaster) a larger share to compensate until he catches up. That's just good cooperation. It's when that won't placate the barbarian that we'd be telling him to shape up or ship out.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


Considering that WBL is in the core rulebook as a measure of the magically enhanced equipment that one has, and any destroyed irreplacable weapons or used consumables do not count as usable wealth anymore. does mean, that buying a restoration in town or buying a potion is indeed a wealth penalty and delays the acquisition of equipment. the penalty is relative to players who didn't have to take the penalty.

when you sunder the hypothetical barbarian's greatsword. you pretty much should include an equivalent or slightly better greatsword in the soon to be aquired treasure as compensation for the one you shattered.

wealth is a very precious resource in pathfinder, and misplaced wealth, such as even being a single copper piece behind the richest PC, can cost you your life. just...

Wealth by level is a guideline for balancing a campaign in line with the assumptions built into creature CRs. It's not a necessary rule, nor does it imply much about how that WBL is distributed among the PC's gear. So its utility in this case is pretty limited.

But I find your assertion that being a copper behind the richest PC is a matter of life and death is way off. The game tolerates a lot more variance than that.

once you have drank a potion or burned out a wand, it shouldn't count towards WBL anymore because it is no longer useable. WBL is a measure of immediately usable adventuring wealth. in other words, permanent bonus providing equipment.

at the same time, diamonds wasted on a Resurrection are no longer usable wealth either. and thus should no longer count.


Digitalelf wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
the penalty for bringing in a new PC is not the drain on party resources that is called a Resurrecton

Wow... Just WOW...

I know we all have differing play styles, but this is just SO foreign a concept. I'm sorry, but I just cannot wrap my head around playing like this...

a new PC, would be preferred by many i know, over being ressurected. not only to cheat the death penalties, but because some players wish to try something new. and i cannot be shackled to the same PC for an entire campaign.

i know some people who can play dwarven fighters for decades and be happy. but i have to bring in someone new every once in a while. instead of whining to get a Resurrection. i just bring in one of my backup characters and enjoy Reearning the party's trust under a new persona, experimenting with new mechanics, and trying new concepts i couldn't try before with my old PC.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

once you have drank a potion or burned out a wand, it shouldn't count towards WBL anymore because it is no longer useable. WBL is a measure of immediately usable adventuring wealth. in other words, permanent bonus providing equipment.

at the same time, diamonds wasted on a Resurrection are no longer usable wealth either. and thus should no longer count.

Which is completely immaterial to the fact that WBL is not a binding rule.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

once you have drank a potion or burned out a wand, it shouldn't count towards WBL anymore because it is no longer useable. WBL is a measure of immediately usable adventuring wealth. in other words, permanent bonus providing equipment.

at the same time, diamonds wasted on a Resurrection are no longer usable wealth either. and thus should no longer count.

Which is completely immaterial to the fact that WBL is not a binding rule.

WBL may not be a binding rule, but the monster CRs are built around it as a core assumption. and they assume you will have specific magic items at specific levels. not having the gear means you can't play with the baddie you need it for.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
once you have drank a potion or burned out a wand, it shouldn't count towards WBL anymore because it is no longer useable.

I seriously doubt that the devs meant for WBL to be looked at by the players and have them say, "Okay, we just finished the adventure and I used up 12,301 of my character's wealth. So that means I'm now due that back... I expect this before we start a new adventure module Mr. GM!"

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
WBL may not be a binding rule, but the monster CRs are built around it as a core assumption. and they assume you will have specific magic items at specific levels. not having the gear means you can't play with the baddie you need it for.

No, it means they will be harder without it. Some may be impossible, but losing one item does not lose you the entire game.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
the penalty for bringing in a new PC is not the drain on party resources that is called a Resurrecton, but instead, the not getting a share of the haul from my previous PCs carcass, and the not getting a share of the hauls from which my previous PC died in. that is quite a fair penalty for bringing a new character at APL with level appropriate wealth.

Waitasec... the GM not only lets you roll up a new character, same level, with full WBL, he also lets the other PCs loot your old character?

Geez, no wonder you never bother with raise dead. Infanite lewtz galore!

Step 1: suicide
Step 2: new character with full WBL
Step 3: old character's full WBL goes into party treasure
Step 4: next party member suicides
Step 5: repeat
Step 6: profit


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


a new PC, would be preferred by many i know, over being ressurected. not only to cheat the death penalties, but because some players wish to try something new. and i cannot be shackled to the same PC for an entire campaign.

I have no problem with a player trying something new. That's taking on a new challenge. That's not avoiding the challenge of overcoming a setback in play. Big difference in attitude.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
WBL may not be a binding rule, but the monster CRs are built around it as a core assumption. and they assume you will have specific magic items at specific levels. not having the gear means you can't play with the baddie you need it for.
No, it means they will be harder without it. Some may be impossible, but losing one item does not lose you the entire game.

Besides, if you feel your PC needs more valuable gear, there's nothing stopping you from making some more money before you take on bigger challenges.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013

Also, bolding mine:

Quote:
Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value. It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.

...including things like 5000gp diamonds.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
WBL may not be a binding rule, but the monster CRs are built around it as a core assumption. and they assume you will have specific magic items at specific levels. not having the gear means you can't play with the baddie you need it for.
No, it means they will be harder without it. Some may be impossible, but losing one item does not lose you the entire game.

Exactly that's why each attack from a creature should Sunder an item. See how the over privileged PC's like it with no gear. What WBL is a guide-line.

*Evil GM laugh*


Charlie Bell wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
the penalty for bringing in a new PC is not the drain on party resources that is called a Resurrecton, but instead, the not getting a share of the haul from my previous PCs carcass, and the not getting a share of the hauls from which my previous PC died in. that is quite a fair penalty for bringing a new character at APL with level appropriate wealth.

Waitasec... the GM not only lets you roll up a new character, same level, with full WBL, he also lets the other PCs loot your old character?

Geez, no wonder you never bother with raise dead. Infanite lewtz galore!

Step 1: suicide
Step 2: new character with full WBL
Step 3: old character's full WBL goes into party treasure
Step 4: next party member suicides
Step 5: repeat
Step 6: profit

we have a social contract not to abuse it.


DSXMachina wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
WBL may not be a binding rule, but the monster CRs are built around it as a core assumption. and they assume you will have specific magic items at specific levels. not having the gear means you can't play with the baddie you need it for.
No, it means they will be harder without it. Some may be impossible, but losing one item does not lose you the entire game.

Exactly that's why each attack from a creature should Sunder an item. See how the over privileged PC's like it with no gear. What WBL is a guide-line.

*Evil GM laugh*

most of the encounters require gear to some degree, and some classes NEED thier gear more than others.

Martial classes need, at the absolute minimum, a weapon and a suit of armor with level appropriate bonuses

Spellcasters need at the bare minimum, the tools to cast thier spells.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Charlie Bell wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
the penalty for bringing in a new PC is not the drain on party resources that is called a Resurrecton, but instead, the not getting a share of the haul from my previous PCs carcass, and the not getting a share of the hauls from which my previous PC died in. that is quite a fair penalty for bringing a new character at APL with level appropriate wealth.

Waitasec... the GM not only lets you roll up a new character, same level, with full WBL, he also lets the other PCs loot your old character?

Geez, no wonder you never bother with raise dead. Infanite lewtz galore!

Step 1: suicide
Step 2: new character with full WBL
Step 3: old character's full WBL goes into party treasure
Step 4: next party member suicides
Step 5: repeat
Step 6: profit

My group likes making new characters, and we found this problem occurring (in one dungeon, one guy survived and there were enough bags of holding for him to take all the expensive gear and the new loot). So, now we just don't allow looting of PCs because of this. The GM can exempt an item from the rule if they consider it to also be a plot device.


In a game I run demo's for I tell the players:

"If I ever deny you your weapon or companions, I am explicitly authorizing you to reach across the table and slap me. Then proceed to describe how your character uses the weapon anyways."


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Lumiere said:

"once you have drank a potion or burned out a wand, it shouldn't count towards WBL anymore because it is no longer useable. WBL is a measure of immediately usable adventuring wealth. in other words, permanent bonus providing equipment.

at the same time, diamonds wasted on a Resurrection are no longer usable wealth either. and thus should no longer count."

* * * *

Uh, no. WBL is a guideline about how much wealth an adventuring character ought to have accumulated in the course of their career, allowing higher-than-1st-level PCs to be built.

If someone spent their wealth on a tower and walled estate, rather than adventuring gear, they have just as much wealth as a character who went down to the magic mart and geared out for dragon-hunting.

It is not "a measure of immediately-usable adventuring wealth." I promise you you misread that.


Alitan wrote:

Lumiere said:

"once you have drank a potion or burned out a wand, it shouldn't count towards WBL anymore because it is no longer useable. WBL is a measure of immediately usable adventuring wealth. in other words, permanent bonus providing equipment.

at the same time, diamonds wasted on a Resurrection are no longer usable wealth either. and thus should no longer count."

* * * *

Uh, no. WBL is a guideline about how much wealth an adventuring character ought to have accumulated in the course of their career, allowing higher-than-1st-level PCs to be built.

If someone spent their wealth on a tower and walled estate, rather than adventuring gear, they have just as much wealth as a character who went down to the magic mart and geared out for dragon-hunting.

It is not "a measure of immediately-usable adventuring wealth." I promise you you misread that.

some items shouldn't count toward WBL because there is no real way to milk an adventuring related bonus out of them. such as mansions and titles.

i merely read WBL not as written, but how i think it was intended by the writers. in other words, immediately useable adventuring wealth. it doesn't matter how many millions you have within the vaults of your estate when you cannot even access it to aquire goods.

WBL is AFTER spending gold on consumables, selling items for half price, replacing sundered goods, ETC. or else, the treasure per encounter would if calculated, far exceed the wealth by level charts. and some groups exceed the charts anyway.

WBL doesn't care whether you bought the item, stole it, nor found it in a horde, though crafting feats give a discount on starting gear and future gear because of the investment of feats. which may lead to being allowed to slightly exceed the guidelines.

a PC isn't magically born at 1st level or any level when someone dies. a higher level PC might be a more experienced former adventurer who joined at APL, or it might even be a prodigy accepted for their unusual skill. new PCs should have an excuse for being in the area. no matter how flimsy.

but a 1st level character shouldn't be traveling with a level 4+party and over 75% of your adventuring capability comes from your immediately useable gear, more than your level.

at the same time, the PC must have something they bring to the party, and in a party with 2nd level spells or higher, there is nothing a 1st level character can really contribute.

and it can take many sessions before a dead PC is Resurrection. either due to the group forgetting, or due to an unlucky series of events increasing the difficulty. which usually makes the new character with the flimsy excuse for being there, a more expedient and less bothersome way to allow the player whose PC died to continue playing the game and is actually less immersion breaking than the revolving door of death.

as long as you don't willingly game that aspect to cheat the wealth by level charts or commit frequent suicides for a boatload of money. you should be fine.

i don't advocate the barbarian making a new character to bypass the loss of his greatsword in any way. but i do suggest some form of temporary compensatory item, such as a busted lead pipe he can use as a greatclub until he finds a proper replacement greatsword. if his mithril breastplate was destroyed by rust monsters. you don't have to give a new suit of mithril breastplate with the same bonus, but there should at least be a killable monster with a masterwork chainshirt he can use until he reaquires a new mithril breastplate or whatever.

wizard is hit by feeblemind and failed the save? i would allow him to roll up a new PC because his only contribution was stripped from him. same with any feebleminded caster.

fighter loses an arm, it would cost some hefty resources on his part, but i would find a way to accomodate a fully functional prosthetic arm along the lines of Amestrian Automail. attaching the new arm might have a fortitude save against exhaustion that lasts a week. but the arm should at least be full functional as an arm.

similar things can be accomodated for a variety of permanent debilitations. but stuff like the metal arm should cost less than a regenerate spell unless they have some other positive perk, such as being able to utilize magical enhancements. such as a way to expend resources to restore eyesight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, or stuff like providing a temporary suboptimal weapon until the player has worked to find their replacement. but these overcomings of penalties should be treated the way i view consumables because they aren't providing any immediate advantages but are instead overcoming penalties.


If a PC wants to use their money to buy a house instead of a new weapon, good for them. That's a noble sacrifice for the sake of roleplaying.

Yessiree. A noooble sacrifice.

What? They want me to reimburse them because the house doesn't help them kill behirs faster? Flippin' 'eck...

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Digitalelf wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
the penalty for bringing in a new PC is not the drain on party resources that is called a Resurrecton

Wow... Just WOW...

I know we all have differing play styles, but this is just SO foreign a concept. I'm sorry, but I just cannot wrap my head around playing like this...

a new PC, would be preferred by many i know, over being ressurected. not only to cheat the death penalties, but because some players wish to try something new. and i cannot be shackled to the same PC for an entire campaign.

i know some people who can play dwarven fighters for decades and be happy. but i have to bring in someone new every once in a while. instead of whining to get a Resurrection. i just bring in one of my backup characters and enjoy Reearning the party's trust under a new persona, experimenting with new mechanics, and trying new concepts i couldn't try before with my old PC.

I'm fine with people swapping out their characters if they're bored, want to try something new, or if the dead character would not answer the call to return.

I am not okay with them coming up with a new character at full WBL. There's two things you can do:

1. Get equipped off the dead guy. This is assuming the party doesn't bury him/set his funeral pyre/whatever with all his equipment.
2. Calculate up the worth of the dead guy's stuff. Round to a reasonable even number nearby. The new character gets that much to equip himself with. If you choose this option, the dead guy's loot needs to go away for some reason.

It's never been an issue in my games though. The few times someone has died, it was either at low levels (as in 3rd or lower, so the difference between their actual wealth and WBL was less likely to be off by much) or they answered the rez. The exceptions followed option 2 above.

Quote:
it is also less bothersome, to have a New PC suddenly fall from the sky and allow the player to continue playing.

It also disrupts the plot. Why did this character, who was heavily involved and connected to the story, not want to see it to its end when the chance to resume was offered? And why did this new guy suddenly show up in his place?

But maybe my players have more attachment to their characters than yours. Or something.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

If a PC wants to use their money to buy a house instead of a new weapon, good for them. That's a noble sacrifice for the sake of roleplaying.

Yessiree. A noooble sacrifice.

What? They want me to reimburse them because the house doesn't help them kill behirs faster? Flippin' 'eck...

dead characters cannot roleplay, and it assumed the PCs have a free nonmagical outfit to cover their body and a house to sleep in.

it is also assumed that PCs can find a means to afford their mundane expenses between adventures.

just because you are making suboptimal choices, doesn't mean you are a better roleplayer.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

dead characters cannot roleplay, and it assumed the PCs have a free nonmagical outfit to cover their body and a house to sleep in.

it is also assumed that PCs can find a means to afford their mundane expenses between adventures.

Er, where is this assumed?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

dead characters cannot roleplay, and it assumed the PCs have a free nonmagical outfit to cover their body and a house to sleep in.

it is also assumed that PCs can find a means to afford their mundane expenses between adventures.

Er, where is this assumed?

every player character starts off with a free outfit worth 10 gold pieces or less. this is an official rule on the SRD.

it is also assumed, (based on PFS guide to organized play) that PCs, based on downtime between adventures, would during that downtime, reliably find a means to pay the bills.

it is also assumed every PC has a room to sleep in somewhere. even if they aren't the owner of said house. says nothing about the home's conditions. i didn't say every PC has a mansion, i merely implied they have a home to sleep in. and this home to sleep in doesn't count against their wealth.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

This is not the PFS forums.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
This is not the PFS forums.

Yeah, PFS only has that rule because it's kind of a necessity in a huge organized play system.

And the point in buying a mansion is roleplaying, really. Sure, there are some practical advantages, but it's mostly a roleplaying choice.

Your stance appears to be that the PC should quickly recover the gold spent on the mansion because it doesn't mechanically assist them and therefore doesn't count against their WBL.

Seems to me that letting them easily recover their losses would defeat the point in buying the house.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


every player character starts off with a free outfit worth 10 gold pieces or less. this is an official rule on the SRD.

That's a rule, yes.

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

it is also assumed, (based on PFS guide to organized play) that PCs, based on downtime between adventures, would during that downtime, reliably find a means to pay the bills.

it is also assumed every PC has a room to sleep in somewhere. even if they aren't the owner of said house. says nothing about the home's conditions. i didn't say every PC has a mansion, i merely implied they have a home to sleep in. and this home to sleep in doesn't count against their wealth.

These, however, are the ground rules for a specific campaign, not the inherent assumptions of the game nor any other non-PFS campaign. The ground rules for my campaign are different and have the same validity as the PFS campaign rules. So, not particularly helpful for getting at the assumptions of the game and non-adventuring expenses and wealth.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

If a PC wants to use their money to buy a house instead of a new weapon, good for them. That's a noble sacrifice for the sake of roleplaying.

Yessiree. A noooble sacrifice.

What? They want me to reimburse them because the house doesn't help them kill behirs faster? Flippin' 'eck...

dead characters cannot roleplay, and it assumed the PCs have a free nonmagical outfit to cover their body and a house to sleep in.

it is also assumed that PCs can find a means to afford their mundane expenses between adventures.

just because you are making suboptimal choices, doesn't mean you are a better roleplayer.

You DO realize there are sections in the CRB discussing cost of living, right? PCs don't magically write off their mundane expenses, nor have a free house... if they want one, they have to buy (or otherwise acquire) it.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
This is not the PFS forums.

Yeah, PFS only has that rule because it's kind of a necessity in a huge organized play system.

And the point in buying a mansion is roleplaying, really. Sure, there are some practical advantages, but it's mostly a roleplaying choice.

Your stance appears to be that the PC should quickly recover the gold spent on the mansion because it doesn't mechanically assist them and therefore doesn't count against their WBL.

Seems to me that letting them easily recover their losses would defeat the point in buying the house.

you don't need to easily or quickly recover the wealth, but the cost of buying the house should be "recovered" over the course of 3-5 or so levels.


Alitan wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

If a PC wants to use their money to buy a house instead of a new weapon, good for them. That's a noble sacrifice for the sake of roleplaying.

Yessiree. A noooble sacrifice.

What? They want me to reimburse them because the house doesn't help them kill behirs faster? Flippin' 'eck...

dead characters cannot roleplay, and it assumed the PCs have a free nonmagical outfit to cover their body and a house to sleep in.

it is also assumed that PCs can find a means to afford their mundane expenses between adventures.

just because you are making suboptimal choices, doesn't mean you are a better roleplayer.

You DO realize there are sections in the CRB discussing cost of living, right? PCs don't magically write off their mundane expenses, nor have a free house... if they want one, they have to buy (or otherwise acquire) it.

and taking 10 an untrained profession check earns you 5 gold per week. assuming a 10 wis and no skill ranks. 4 weeks in a month, and an average lifestyle is 10 gold pieces a month. which covers all the middle class living expenses. which gives you 10 extra gold pieces per month during downtime. so by that standard, a 10 wis PC without skill ranks should be earning an additional slush fund of 10GP a month. after spending 10 of the 20 they earn that month on mundane living expenses, which covers a months worth of food, lodging, taxes, and mundane services.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
you don't need to easily or quickly recover the wealth, but the cost of buying the house should be "recovered" over the course of 3-5 or so levels.

It will only be recovered if the character goes out and is proactive about it. It will not just be given if the DM does not choose to.


Hey. Lumiere. Something you seem to have overlooked.

The PRD said:

Untrained: Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.

...according to the CRB.

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