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Sub-tier question


Pathfinder Society GM Discussion

Taldor

Hello all,
I'm sorry if there is a similar thread that might answer my question, but all the threads I could find were about "GM credit". Mine is a little different.

Our GM wants to play Dalsine Affair which is for level 1-7s. If we choose subtier 3-4 (our level average),

1) Can level 5 and 6's take xp/rewards?
1) Can level 1 and 2's take xp/rewards? Or they will take the xp when they reach level 3? (When they play the game that will make their characters level 3 after the end of game, they will be having 7 xps instead of 6. That's what I mean.)

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Level 5, 6, and 7 PCs can 'play down', the impact is that they only get the gold for subtier 3-4, and the subtier 6-7 items on the chronicle sheet will be crossed out.

Level 1 and 2 PCs can 'play up', they get the full rewards for subtier 3-4 immediately. Alternatively, those players can play a level 4 pregen, get a chronicle sheet, and hold it to apply to a lower level PC (such as the aforementioned level 1 and 2s) as soon as it reaches 4th level.

Silver Crusade *** Venture-Lieutenant, Turkey—Istanbul aka chyren

Same rules in subtiers too?

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

I've edited my post slightly to be clear I'm talking about subtiers.

A character can never play a scenario when outside its level range.

Taldor

Alright, so level 1-7s can play any subtier and get the rewards of that subtier if they can complete the quest. Thanks for the clarification, Paz. :)

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Alara Bayraktar wrote:
Alright, so level 1-7s can play any subtier and get the rewards of that subtier if they can complete the quest. Thanks for the clarification, Paz. :)

They can't play any subtier by choice, you have to work out what's allowed based on the levels of the party. Read 'Tiers and Subtiers' and 'Determining Subtiers' on page 32 of the Guide to PFS Organised Play.

*****

It is possible for a level 1–7 character to play sub-tier 3-4. However, in my experience, it's not very satisfying to play with that much of a level spread. The low level characters will have a hard time keeping up—and surviving, while the high level characters won't have much of a challenge.

It's better for the players with high level characters to create new first–level characters and play the low tier. An alternative (as Paz mentioned above) is to play a pre–gen. Keep in mind that you only have one chance to play any given scenario, so if you use a pre-gen, you will never be able to play that one with your own character.

Cheliax ****

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

Also... spank this GM for wanting to run Dalsine for a huge level spread table like that.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

One last clarification that bears mention.

A party of five level 7 characters and one level 2 can't all play Dalsine Affair in the 6-7 subtier. The level 2 is more than one subtier away from everyone else, so he is not allowed to "play up" two subtiers. The player can play it with a level 7 pregen.

Silver Crusade **

TetsujinOni wrote:
Also... spank this GM for wanting to run Dalsine for a huge level spread table like that.

Agreed. This adventure has a reputation for being among the most deadly in Pathfinder Society history. Consider yourself warned.

Andoran ***

Fromper wrote:
TetsujinOni wrote:
Also... spank this GM for wanting to run Dalsine for a huge level spread table like that.
Agreed. This adventure has a reputation for being among the most deadly in Pathfinder Society history. Consider yourself warned.

Spoiler:
On reading the actual tactics for the encounter in question, every GM I have seen post about it was using the wrong spell for their first cast.

Given everything, he would be using his highest level spell for that first, no concentration check needed cast, not a spell he could cast easily in combat. So Frigid Touch, rather than Shocking Grasp for his first spell/attack.

Much less deadly, much less likely to cause a fatality, while still having a good chance to take out his first target.

Also, if it is a surprise round, then he only gets one action, not a full attack action to use spellstrike. At best, cast, 5' step and make the attack.

Cheliax ****

kinevon wrote:
Fromper wrote:
TetsujinOni wrote:
Also... spank this GM for wanting to run Dalsine for a huge level spread table like that.
Agreed. This adventure has a reputation for being among the most deadly in Pathfinder Society history. Consider yourself warned.
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
He cast the spell and moved up to his target the previous round, and his surprise round involved a standard action to deliver the charge.
Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, California—San Diego

What usually gets forgotten in this encounter:
When he casts spells they can be perceived the PCs should get a perception check to
  • Hear the casting
  • Possibly identify it as casting if they have spell craft
  • Possibly locate the caster if they roll high enough on perception
  • *

    Spoiler:
    In addition a lot of GMs screw up on interactions with illusions and saving throws.

    Cheliax ****

    Spoiler:
    The illusion's laughing is meant to cover the sounds of his spellcasting, although as Lab_Rat says, it may be appropriate to allow a will save to know that the laughing is illusory.

    *

    All the good stuff is behind spoilers. Sorry players!

    Spoiler:
    Yep! That sound is an interaction and thus everyone in the room gets a will save. This is why silent image is actually a better spell than minor or major image in some regards. I keep a copy of All about illusions with me. It's a great reference for how illusions work, even though it was written for 3.5.

    Cheliax ****

    Fair enough, I'll be sure to run it that way in the future.

    *

    Spoiler:
    Illusion interaction is kind of a grey area that is up to the GM to define. I am by no means saying that my way is 100% correct. I have just noticed that some GMs don't give the player any kind of save no matter what they do that first round. I usually allow a save from hearing an illusion as some illusions are purely audio and that's the only interaction you will get. In addition, I give a save if you try to talk to it, interact with it physically, or take any kind of action to study it. In our party the Paladin tried to have a conversation with the illusion on the 1st round, made their save, and then went full defense. Saved their life as the GM rolled a 18 on the shocking grasp of death.

    Shadow Lodge *

    Spoiler:
    I don't want to get off-topic here, but if you're allowing a saving throw JUST for hearing an illusion, you should be giving a saving throw JUST for looking at it.

    Major/Minor Image should be better in all regards than Silent Image. Listening or feeling thermal effects passively shouldn't be considered interacting with.

    Quote:
    That sound is an interaction and thus everyone in the room gets a will save
    makes no sense to me, but
    Quote:
    In our party the Paladin tried to have a conversation with the illusion on the 1st round, made their save

    does.

    Shadow Lodge ****

    I agree ... Active Interaction = Save

    Not Passive

    in another Scenario I had the entire Group believing that a flaming Sphere was an illusion ... when it was actually Real (I had ppl trying to comit suicide by touching it ect) it didnt help that there was a tiefling w/ Fire resistance

    it was funny as hell

    Grand Lodge *** Venture-Captain, Idaho—Twin Falls aka Rendrin

    http://paizo.com/threads/gbiipjeh/favorites?Clarifying-the-Playing-Up-Rule

    I think this answers your question, it seems to be broken down really well. Since it's a 4 star GM who made the post I would say that you should follow those guidelines unless you see something from an official Paizo staff member to the contrary.

    Andoran ***

    Mergy wrote:
    kinevon wrote:
    Fromper wrote:
    TetsujinOni wrote:
    Also... spank this GM for wanting to run Dalsine for a huge level spread table like that.
    Agreed. This adventure has a reputation for being among the most deadly in Pathfinder Society history. Consider yourself warned.
    ** spoiler omitted **
    ** spoiler omitted **

    Spoiler:
    Mergy, he does NOT cast Shocking Grasp or move closer during the two rounds between his ending concentration on the illusion and the beginning of combat:

    "During the subsequent 2 rounds of the spell’s duration, he casts cat’s grace and shield" is the text for both 1-2 and 3-4 Chalfon's before combat tactics.

    So, no precast touch attack spell, no movement. He starts at location C, and can only do a 5' step and use Spell Combat to get his Shocking Grasp or Frigid Touch off.

    Shadow Lodge *

    Spoiler:
    kinevon, why do you think he's not allowed to move from the position that he's in when the PCs first enter the room? The only thing here is that he may not get a surprise round if the PCs attacked the illusion. He can still move around wherever the hell he wants before he attacks.

    Andoran ***

    Serum wrote:
    ** spoiler omitted **

    Spoiler:
    How can he move? He is concentrating on maintaining the illusion until he starts casting his buffs.

    He could move, but then he has to make an active stealth check, and he doesn't know if the party has some idiot cleric with a perception high enough to hear him if he only has the +20 instead of the +40 from not moving.

    Also, do you want to play him by his tactics, as written and PFS rules require, or do you want to use your own tactics?

    His tactics never mention moving, just buffing. If the author wanted him to move, he would have added in the pre-combat tactics, "Chalfon moves closer to the PC meeting X condition, whether X is the one in no armor, or the one in the heaviest metal armor.

    To be honest, as a GM, I think Chalfon already gets an overwhelming advantage, as evidenced by all the "Chalfon killed my PC/party" posts. He gets an attack against the flatfooted AC of what is likely to either be the biggest threat to him, or the squishiest member of the party.

    With the AoO-free cast, he should run with his highest level attack spell, and save the SHocking Grasps for when he has to make concentration checks with them, which he can make, where he can fail with that second level spell.

    Oh, well, at least he isn't doing Intensified Shocking Grasps, with a Keen scimitar.

    Cheliax ****

    kinevon wrote:
    Mergy wrote:
    kinevon wrote:
    Fromper wrote:
    TetsujinOni wrote:
    Also... spank this GM for wanting to run Dalsine for a huge level spread table like that.
    Agreed. This adventure has a reputation for being among the most deadly in Pathfinder Society history. Consider yourself warned.
    ** spoiler omitted **
    ** spoiler omitted **
    ** spoiler omitted **

    Spoiler:
    Okay, but here is the way I ran it last time.

    1st round: cast first buff spell.
    2nd round: cast second buff spell.
    3rd round: cast shocking grasp, move up to target and deliver as free action.

    The delivery is the surprise round. There is no reason for him to be limited in his own actions just because his enemies are surprised. That's just weird quirks of initiative. Yes, the illusion disappears just as he attacks, and it becomes a lot more foreboding that way.

    EDIT: Also, do you mean to tell me that when the tactics don't specifically say an enemy moves around, you don't move them?

    Andoran ***

    Mergy wrote:
    kinevon wrote:
    Mergy wrote:
    kinevon wrote:
    Fromper wrote:
    TetsujinOni wrote:
    Also... spank this GM for wanting to run Dalsine for a huge level spread table like that.
    Agreed. This adventure has a reputation for being among the most deadly in Pathfinder Society history. Consider yourself warned.
    ** spoiler omitted **
    ** spoiler omitted **
    ** spoiler omitted **
    ** spoiler omitted **

    Spoiler:
    You do know that in a surprise round, anyone not surprised only gets a single action? Cast, move, attack is too many actions for a surprise round.

    Cast, 5' step, attack, since the attack is a free action, would be possible.

    Moving during pre-combat tactics? Seldom, unless there is a specific reason to move the enemy, he must be where he wants to be...

    I will do some repositioning, but that is frequently where the enemies start out both hidden and without an actual map placement, like the last two War Hounds in Silent Tide.

    Really, why make an already extremely deadly encounter worse than the written tactics support?

    Given what is already happening, someone is almost guaranteed to be within a 5' step of him, and his invisibility doesn't end until he actually gets that attack in.

    Taldor

    I've just seen the comments above! :)
    We've played Dalsine Affair and I think it was a smooth run. I don't know if GM has forgotten somethings or not, but he was trying his best, so I don't think that he missed anything important while he was GM'ing.

    Spoiler:
    I had a tripper-fighter character so in last fight I tripped the boss successfully, also my fighter is a Taldan who is also working for Taldor faction, so with nice roleplays, Diplomacy checks and back up from my party members we could handle the game.

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