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Long Time - First TIme


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hello there.

I've been reading these forums for the last few months but never posted. Thus... long time listener, first time poster.

I've been playing Pathfinder for roughly a year now. Really enjoy it, and I feel it's a great step in the right direction for the hobby to go. reading this forum I've noticed a lot of things. There are some smart people I've seen here... so I guess pat yourself on the back.

I've read a lot of Fighter Threads, Paladin threads, Rogue threads, Monk threads... the list goes on.

So now you know a little bit about me, and I should get to the point...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Point~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My friends and I have some problems with the way the game presents itself.

Things to change...
Economics
Alignment
Handling of Gunpowder
The overall handling of magic.
Critical Attacks.
A system based on dungeon crawling.

Things to add...
Rituals like 4th Edition D&D.
More Broad Physical Combat Events.
Crafting System based on a more rational economic structure.

While I intend to base a lot of what I'm seeing with Pathfinder, and even design a lot of these changes to be glommed onto Pathfinder, my ultimate goal is to build a system that caters to myself and my friends style of play.

One major change I am applying... A masterwork system that allows for +1 to +5 being the masterwork, then each bonus from masterwork being allowed for an enchantment that is equal to a +1. This will inherently reduce the high cost of weapons and armor which will help reduce the cost of other magic items since they are what I consider to be the gold standard of magic items.

What I'm asking is... I've been thinking of doing a blog to post my thoughts on the system, and the changes not only so that I can have an outlet, but also a sounding board. People are smart and will see things differently from myself and may give me great ideas.

The question here...

Would you be interested in following this sort of blog, considering I'm pretty much a nobody, and may not appeal to your sensibilities?

Note: Keep in mind this is originally designed to be an addon/modification to the Pathfinder system.

Also I apologize if this was in the wrong forum. Wasn't sure if it belonged in a homebrew, or here, or even off topic.


Welcome!

Since what you're describing is essentially a set of house rules, the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum would be correct.

If you want forum participation, my suggestion is this. Make up a distinctive name for your project. Then, whenever you publish a section to your blog, also publish it in this forum, using the distinctive name in the title of your post. That way your fans from the forum can easily recognize your project when it comes up. So, if your blog is called, "JaydeRules" then posts to the forum would be titled, "JadeRules - Crafting" or "JadeRules - Alignment".

Good luck!


Blueluck wrote:

Welcome!

Since what you're describing is essentially a set of house rules, the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum would be correct.

If you want forum participation, my suggestion is this. Make up a distinctive name for your project. Then, whenever you publish a section to your blog, also publish it in this forum, using the distinctive name in the title of your post. That way your fans from the forum can easily recognize your project when it comes up. So, if your blog is called, "JaydeRules" then posts to the forum would be titled, "JadeRules - Crafting" or "JadeRules - Alignment".

Good luck!

Thanks for the advice, but the probe is more regarding the interest in such a thing. Whether its worth doing in the first place. Like I said, I'm kinda a nobody and nobody really has a specific reason TO invest the time, so Im mostly trying to figure out if it's worth the time from my side as well.


Welcome and keep posting. There's always interest in potentially game-changing mechanics, thus this suggestions section of the forum. Enough interest for a full blog with regular posts? I don't know.


Mark Hoover wrote:

Welcome and keep posting. There's always interest in potentially game-changing mechanics, thus this suggestions section of the forum. Enough interest for a full blog with regular posts? I don't know.

Well the idea is to start off figuring out the economics and the crafting system that would be the backbone of it. Then I would move on to skills. I even plan on looking at the spell structure. Lots to look at anyways.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

In order to advise you properly, I'd love to know what the perceived issues are with

Economics
Alignment
Handling of Gunpowder
The overall handling of magic.
Critical Attacks.
A system based on dungeon crawling.

... because while many people have problems with these, they're not universally the same problems. And they can require different solutions.


Hi TheJayde,

To echo what Blueluck and Evil Lincoln said, it is usually more efficient to discuss single change/proposition, with an exposition of both perceived problem of RaW and proposed alternative.

As for reading the blog, I prefer when the relevant text is also double-posted (either spoilered, summarized or an extract completed with hypertext link) here for the purpose of discussing its content.

'findel


Evil Lincoln wrote:

In order to advise you properly, I'd love to know what the perceived issues are with

Economics
Alignment
Handling of Gunpowder
The overall handling of magic.
Critical Attacks.
A system based on dungeon crawling.

... because while many people have problems with these, they're not universally the same problems. And they can require different solutions.

Economics -

Thousands upon thousands of gold pieces. It ties into the crafting that I want to build up, where you can make varying levels of masterwork. Masterwork levels 1-5 where the bonuses increase. This way a +5 weapon would be non magical and you can have legendary craftsmanship like the Masamune. More importantly, an Adventurer who just earned enough to buy a Ring of Regen (90K) surely could drop enough gold to every one of their friends to make sure that they don't work. I like the idea that adventurers will follow the plot for non money purposes... but when they earn 1,000 gold... why don't they just retire on that pretty penny?

Alignment-
I just have a different perception on alignment. That is a completely personal outlook on the system so... it is what it is.

Handling of Gunpowder-
Pretty quick reloading system. I also have a system I want to put into place that has a True HP number, and a HP number. Once HP runs out, then damage is dealt to the True Hp. True HP damage is when they are bloodied, and when an attack penetrates the ability of the character to effectively defend themselves. Hp could be seen more as how long you can fight instead of damage taken. There are even going to be certain attacks or effects that deal direct damage to True HP. You would also need to deal damage to True Hp to deliver poisons. Anyways... I want Gunpowder weapons to deal damage direct to the true hp, since they are so difficult to defend against. Also want them to not particularly target touch AC, but also not the AC of the target. I'd like them to take three rounds to reload so they can be sort of like alpha strike weapons.

Magic-
Magic does a good job of making balance, but it's still very powerful. The goal here is to balance the spells between each school and add more flavor to each school. It's never sat well with me that a Fireball can be delivered with a precision strike (for example). I have no problem that they can hit the exact right spot as Quarterbacks can do that pretty darn well. My idea to change fireball is to randomize the area of effect a little bit. Having metamagic feats that will adjust that as well. Another one is I'd like to have Illusions be direct target spells and have the images at higher levels. I also want to add a more comprehensive counterspell system so that I can have magic be powerful still, and at the same time have something to mitigate it's effect here and there. This also goes to the crafting system of weapons and armor, reducing the magical presence in the entire game for world that are not so drenched in magic.

Criticals-
Criticals doing massive burst damage is pretty meh to me. I still want them to have an effect, but have the effect be more like a little boosted damage, knockdown, a push... more varied effects.

Dungeon Crawl-
I enjoy the combat system, but I do not enjoy having to play three fights before the BBEG fight to wear down the PC's a bit. I've seen several conversations on these forums saying that there are balance issues in place that allow fighters and barbarians/Paladins to be more balanced based on the fact that rages/smites run out. Well my group(s) never get there because we just prefer lower numbers of combat. I don't want to fix dungeon crawling I guess... I just want to have a balance on lower events. Same goes with mages... mages are even more powerful in my groups because they can afford to unload spells just based on how we play... and it's not that they're being metagamers... it's just what were used to.


TheJayde wrote:

Economics -

Thousands upon thousands of gold pieces. It ties into the crafting that I want to build up, where you can make varying levels of masterwork. Masterwork levels 1-5 where the bonuses increase. This way a +5 weapon would be non magical and you can have legendary craftsmanship like the Masamune. More importantly, an Adventurer who just earned enough to buy a Ring of Regen (90K) surely could drop enough gold to every one of their friends to make sure that they don't work. I like the idea that adventurers will follow the plot for non money purposes... but when they earn 1,000 gold... why don't they just retire on that pretty penny?

These are all frequently-made critiques. The problem comes in fixing them!

I have an abstract wealth system that I've been experimenting with, derived from the one in True20 but patched to work with Pathfinder. It's hard to do right, which is why I've never really showed it off here yet.

One thing to leave outside, though, is any notion of a "realistic" economy in your game rules. If you want to evoke reality, fine, but anything beyond window dressing will actually seriously bog your game down. Right now, every player knows where to look up the values of the piles of stuff in the game. If you houserule all those values, nobody knows where to look! And you're also throwing out GM niceties like wealth-by-level, which is there for your convenience!

I'm not discouraging you. Heck, I have three different wealth systems for three different campaigns right now! But do tread carefully.

TheJayde wrote:


Alignment-
I just have a different perception on alignment. That is a completely personal outlook on the system so... it is what it is.

Well, if removing it from the game entirely is your objective, there's a nice primer someone wrote about that. It actually covers a number of pitfalls that many people don't consider when they first decide to scrap alignment.

TheJayde wrote:


Handling of Gunpowder-
Pretty quick reloading system. I also have a system I want to put into place that has a True HP number, and a HP number. Once HP runs out, then damage is dealt to the True Hp. True HP damage is when they are bloodied, and when an attack penetrates the ability of the character to effectively defend themselves. Hp could be seen more as how long you can fight instead of damage taken. There are even going to be certain attacks or effects that deal direct damage to True HP. You would also need to deal damage to True Hp to deliver poisons. Anyways... I want Gunpowder weapons to deal damage direct to the true hp, since they are so difficult to defend against. Also want them to not particularly target touch AC, but also not the AC of the target. I'd like them to take three rounds to reload so they can be sort of like alpha strike weapons.

Your definition of Hit Points is actually the same as the one in the book, they just don't split it into two pools. HP are defined as abstract, though — it's the healing rules that treat all HP as concrete that leads to people thinking of them as concrete.

I would avoid "guns go straight to wound damage" because I don't think a system like yours benefits from that. Why can't guns be distracting or put you on the defensive vs. subsequent melee attacks? Why can't you have an abstract loss of defense from hitting the deck or hurling yourself behind cover?

I'm not sure if your first line is a grievance with the speed of reloading, but that's an endemic problem in Pathfinder. You can't slow down guns without slowing down bows and crossbows too. They're all ridiculous and nothing can change about that without some pretty invasive houseruling.

TheJayde wrote:


Magic-
Magic does a good job of making balance, but it's still very powerful. The goal here is to balance the spells between each school and add more flavor to each school. It's never sat well with me that a Fireball can be delivered with a precision strike (for example). I have no problem that they can hit the exact right spot as Quarterbacks can do that pretty darn well. My idea to change fireball is to randomize the area of effect a little bit. Having metamagic feats that will adjust that as well. Another one is I'd like to have Illusions be direct target spells and have the images at higher levels. I also want to add a more comprehensive counterspell system so that I can have magic be powerful still, and at the same time have something to mitigate it's effect here and there. This also goes to the crafting system of weapons and armor, reducing the magical presence in the entire game for world that are not so drenched in magic.

Oh, I agree on the spells being in the right schools and all. That's a problem I would wish solved in a heartbeat. But it can be a poor decision to sacrifice playability at the altar of balance... You make them all "right" and suddenly none of the players know what schools the spells are anymore (current answer: usually transmutation). All of the books present the wrong school, so you have a situation where you need to do TWO spell lookups now... No matter how much it bothers me that spells are in the wrong schools, I could never bring myself to GM with such a sweeping change.

TheJayde wrote:


Criticals-
Criticals doing massive burst damage is pretty meh to me. I still want them to have an effect, but have the effect be more like a little boosted damage, knockdown, a push... more varied effects.

This sounds like a good idea.

You might also consider letting criticals go straight to True HP.

In my own game (where HP are kind of like yours but they don't have separate pools), criticals and failed saves cause the "Wounds" and everything else is just abstract defense loss (parrying, getting worn out, armor damage, etc).

TheJayde wrote:


Dungeon Crawl-
I enjoy the combat system, but I do not enjoy having to play three fights before the BBEG fight to wear down the PC's a bit. I've seen several conversations on these forums saying that there are balance issues in place that allow fighters and barbarians/Paladins to be more balanced based on the fact that rages/smites run out. Well my group(s) never get there because we just prefer lower numbers of combat. I don't want to fix dungeon crawling I guess... I just want to have a balance on lower events. Same goes with mages... mages are even more powerful in my groups because they can afford to unload spells just based on how we play... and it's not that they're being metagamers... it's just what were used to.

A lot of the talk about encounter balance is just bluster. The game functions perfectly well with a single big encounter, you just need to consider how the challenge metrics are affected if you are using them. You can pitch CR, APL, and consecutive encounters out the window if you are an experienced GM who is willing to look at the numbers and make predictions.

Interesting topics. Don't mistake me for discouraging you, these are just the kinds of things I consider when I set out to make new rules.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
TheJayde wrote:

Economics -

Thousands upon thousands of gold pieces. It ties into the crafting that I want to build up, where you can make varying levels of masterwork. Masterwork levels 1-5 where the bonuses increase. This way a +5 weapon would be non magical and you can have legendary craftsmanship like the Masamune. More importantly, an Adventurer who just earned enough to buy a Ring of Regen (90K) surely could drop enough gold to every one of their friends to make sure that they don't work. I like the idea that adventurers will follow the plot for non money purposes... but when they earn 1,000 gold... why don't they just retire on that pretty penny?

These are all frequently-made critiques. The problem comes in fixing them!

I have an abstract wealth system that I've been experimenting with, derived from the one in True20 but patched to work with Pathfinder. It's hard to do right, which is why I've never really showed it off here yet.

One thing to leave outside, though, is any notion of a "realistic" economy in your game rules. If you want to evoke reality, fine, but anything beyond window dressing will actually seriously bog your game down. Right now, every player knows where to look up the values of the piles of stuff in the game. If you houserule all those values, nobody knows where to look! And you're also throwing out GM niceties like wealth-by-level, which is there for your convenience!

I'm not discouraging you. Heck, I have three different wealth systems for three different campaigns right now! But do tread carefully.

Well, as I said it's tied with the goods of the economy, and how things are crafted. Just the idea of making weapons that are +1-5 non magical will go a long way towards that.

And as for where to look... my players can look in the pamphlet I create or the file that I send them.

Evil Lincoln wrote:


TheJayde wrote:


Alignment-
I just have a different perception on alignment. That is a completely personal outlook on the system so... it is what it is.
Well, if removing it from the game entirely is your objective, there's a nice primer someone wrote about that. It actually covers a number of pitfalls that many people don't consider when they first decide to scrap alignment.

The idea is not to remove it. Just change the definitions a little bit. To something that makes sense for us.

Evil Lincoln wrote:


TheJayde wrote:


Handling of Gunpowder-
...

I will have to address the rest of your thoughts later today. I gotta run here so... A note... I dont take this as discouragement. This is for me a good conversation because I don't come to forums to be agreed with. I want arguments. I want to be told how I'm messing up. This is the exact reason I want to have the blog for this so I can have a sounding wall.


For criticals do you mean something like this:

Crits do max damage plus one other effect

2-handed weapons get a free bull rush manuever or sunder manuever

1 handed weapons get a free dirty trick manuever or overrun manuever (to reposition into flanking!)

light weapons get a free attack (sounds powerful, but the're d4 or d6)

If a a weapon had the trip or disarm property you may try that instead.


@Evil Lincoln
I have updated my thoughts here as well in a more organized fashion so we don't just keep having a maze of replies.

@The Terrible Zodin
I think you will find the answer to your question in the Critical section. I also like your idea of granting a second attack and may incorporate that as well.

@All - One thing I'd like to add is the idea that I am having a lof of the rules and what not designed for my campaign setting.

~~ Gunpowder ~~
The definition is the same, but it has no mechanics. Adding this True HP system allows for a bloody sort of effect, and for more advances in creating long lasting wounds for characters. One thing I really loved about the Mordheim game was that your characters were wounded they actually had effects that happened to them, and not all of them were bad. I know that’s not something that everyone would like, but I think it would make a good optional rule system. Also this gives an advantage as I want to change a few spells, and other abilities. I want rogues to sometimes directly target the True HP. It’s something that is being played with really, and I don’t know if it’s something that will work but… I like the core idea of it. Another thing I’d like is that Barbarians may gain extra damage when ‘bloodied’ or have taken damage to their True HP. The true HP system also gives assassins a chance to actually kill something that’s a fighter of high level as some kings may be.
As for the actual guns… That’s a great idea, and may be a good to find some application in regards. I am surely weary about having guns dealing damage to true Hp… maybe a Reflex save to go prone to avoid the attack? They can do it before the attack dice is rolled though. The reason I want the guns to target this way is because there has to be a reason that they are particularly useful mechanically.
You raise a good point about Crossbows, but I’m okay with it. I’d like to have the crossbow deal more damage in one shot anyways as it seems like it would be a good ‘assasination’ weapon or sniper weapon. Also I’d like for the Crossbow to be more accessible to everyone, and have the crossbow be a weapon that is ready immediately, where most of the time the bow may need to be stringed in surprise situations.
~~ Magic ~~
Fourth Edition showed me greatly WHY balance can be lame and boring. I also intend to give them more character… as I said with fireball, I want to make Evocation more random and chaotic. I am having Abjuration be more involved with counter spells. Enchantment is going to be more devious. This alone makes me think that I will eventually have to basically be creating a whole new system or game structure in the end.
Another thing that can be fixed with magic is to have a more smooth progression of spells power. I've always felt that 3rd level is just a ridiculous power jump for mages. Clerics to a lesser degree have a jagged spell power amongst it's levels.
~~ Criticals ~~
My idea is to have weapon types have special effects towards the critical. You deal max damage with critical, and then you may roll another weapon dice… OR deal special effects. Swords are going to have a bleed effect that bleeds the targets True HP. Daggers, and Rapiers has the option to forgo the max damage, and the bonus damage to roll the attack direct to true hp. The Flail initiates a grapple, Whip too. Maces and other Trauma weapons do a knockdown. I feel this will help vary the weapons a little bit more as well.
~~ Dungeon Crawl ~~
I wish I could say it was all bluster, but I have a mage that utterly destroys the battlefield with only half the spells I have taken, and the other half makes me very useful in the rest of the non fighting stuff. 4th edition had the same problem with my group as we would just pop the dailies and the fight was over. I had another wizard in that game (odd that Im bringing up these two wizards who are my only wizards in 15 years of D&D gaming) that locked down the BBEG and he couldn’t do anything.
~~ Combat ~~
There is another thing I am adding too that I rather like, or am preferring to change, but Im not sure if it’s going to be 100%. It’s just something I’m playing around with the thought of. Splitting up attacks throughout the multiple actions. (One thing I like from 4th is the minor action so it’s an example that Im going to use.) 1st and 3rd base Attack from attack bonus is made on your Standard. Move action is your 2nd base attack. The first attack from off-hand attacks would be made with a minor action. (each class is going to get a minor action ability as well, such as sustaining the rage for barbarians, so it won) and the second attack from off hand weapons will be granted in the move action.
One other thing I really liked about the 4th edition is the marked status. It’s not a taunt, but it still has a reason for them to attack you. Not even a great reason, but enough of a reason. I’m tossing that in with Fighters and Paladins. From 4th I also prefer the Non AC Defenses specifically to be in place of the CMD as well as other spells. Now these parts are just things that are on the backend, as I have other things to deal with first.

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