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Building a purely Hair based warrior


Advice

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3 people marked this as a favorite.

This is not for anything specific, just a general, "I think it'd be cool if..." kind of build.

It actually started as a "how can I make an Int based warrior" but when I noticed the White Haired Witch and Feral Combat Training, I became fixated on the idea.

Now, to make the idea work, I'll need at least one level of White-Haired Witch and at least one level of Monk, Weapon Focus: Hair, and Feral Combat Training (which would allow me to make full flurry attacks with my hair).

The question becomes, then: what do I do with the rest of my character to optimize this? Keep in mind that the point is to fight with the hair, so recommending that I just be a full casting witch and only use the Hair as back-up is not what I'm looking for.

Should I just stick with Witch for at least 8 levels until my hair is maxed out (which lets me grab, constrict, trip, pull, and prevent verbal components)? Would it even be worth it to take Witch levels past 8 for the reach and those Rogue talents (which seem decidedly underwhelming to me)?

Should I focus on grappling and make the monk levels Tetori? Or go with some kind of Fighter archetype that helps grappling? Is grappling even worth investing feats in?

Should I make the monk level Sohei and be an Eldritch Knight because, hey, why not have more spells and full BAB?

Should I do Kensei Magus, choosing hair as my weapon of choice so I get Int to AC and touch spells with my hair? I'm concerned because it seems like the entire point of Magus is getting a wider crit range for touch spells, and I wouldn't have that. The upside, though, is that I could take Hexcrafter and get my hexes back...

Is there a good Fighter archetype for this? Lore Warden? Savage Warrior? Unarmed Fighter?

Should I get one of the several feats that would (via Feral Combat Training) allow my hair to deal piercing damage and thus qualify for Duelist? Would Duelist even work (is my hair a light weapon)?

Is Kirin Style worth it to double up on Intelligence to damage? Maybe some kind of Alchemist stuff (Mindchemist?)?

What Patron should I take? What other feats and spells would complement this? How would you optimize a hair based warrior?


Reading this has caused the urge to listen to 80's hair metal well up inside me. I won't lie, I've had the same idea, but with a male using his beard. I expect some Chuck Norris references to insue. Still, I am interested in this as well.


Look at this. Scroll all the way to near the bottom towards the "Defiler" build. It is a very very good take on the "hair fighter" that's playable from level one and gets fully realized at level 5.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Is it possible to multiclass into Monk and be able to flurry with your nose and ear hair? Do they count as natural weapons? Perhaps it counts as one weapon only?


Hair threads FTW


Magus, so you can deliver spells through your hair. Monk, as you said so you can flurry with it, Mindchemist Alchemist for the boost to Int. Had a friend play one of these in a game, it was actually pretty disgusting.


You could start off with me!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Luna_Silvertear wrote:
Reading this has caused the urge to listen to 80's hair metal well up inside me. I won't lie, I've had the same idea, but with a male using his beard. I expect some Chuck Norris references to insue. Still, I am interested in this as well.

OMG. Beard Warrior. Point me to this build if it exists. I must have one.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Scarred Witch Doctor will be a better path. Nab Prehensile Hair Hex.

Go Human, or Scion of Humanity Archon-Blooded Aasimar.

Your Hair attacks will be constitution based.

Start there.


Asmo wrote:
Is it possible to multiclass into Monk and be able to flurry with your nose and ear hair? Do they count as natural weapons? Perhaps it counts as one weapon only?

I played a witch who was a "witch doctor". He was bald and the only hair he had for his prehensile hair was what was under his kilt........


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Gallo wrote:
Asmo wrote:
Is it possible to multiclass into Monk and be able to flurry with your nose and ear hair? Do they count as natural weapons? Perhaps it counts as one weapon only?
I played a witch who was a "witch doctor". He was bald and the only hair he had for his prehensile hair was what was under his kilt........

Lower Beard. We once ran into a Dwarven Brothel named the "Lower Beard".


I just pictured a Western-style bar/bordello with a whole lot of bearded lady dwarves in lingerie.....


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Gallo wrote:
I just pictured a Western-style bar/bordello with a whole lot of bearded lady dwarves in lingerie.....

No face beards, just lower beards.

Golarion female Dwarves do not have face beards. That's Canon.


Unless i'm missing something, this build has a major weakness in the fact that his to hit bonus is lower then a rogue, who is already notorius to be incapable of hitting anything stronger than half his levels. Also, natural attacks don't get iteratives attacks, even if you have only one. So, i really can't see it work even though is a cool idea.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Gallo wrote:
I just pictured a Western-style bar/bordello with a whole lot of bearded lady dwarves in lingerie.....

No face beards, just lower beards.

Golarion female Dwarves do not have face beards. That's Canon.

Cheers for canon statements!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Scarred Witch Doctor/Barbarian is a decent path.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Scarred Witch Doctor will be a better path. Nab Prehensile Hair Hex.

Go Human, or Scion of Humanity Archon-Blooded Aasimar.

Your Hair attacks will be constitution based.

Start there.

You're probably right, but I guess I'm stubborn--I'd really like this to be totally Intelligence based. Plus, I wouldn't want to play a character that is an orc (nor one that is even related to them).

Dekalinder wrote:
Unless i'm missing something, this build has a major weakness in the fact that his to hit bonus is lower then a rogue, who is already notorius to be incapable of hitting anything stronger than half his levels. Also, natural attacks don't get iteratives attacks, even if you have only one. So, i really can't see it work even though is a cool idea.

Feral Combat Training lets you use a specific natural weapon in a Flurry of Blows, meaning I can get my full iterative attacks with it. That's kind of the main gimmick of the idea.

And the BAB doesn't need to stay low--multi-classing to a full BAB class is fine with me. I am not sure how many actual Witch levels I'd need anyway (probably two, at least, though, for the Constriction).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Gallo wrote:
I just pictured a Western-style bar/bordello with a whole lot of bearded lady dwarves in lingerie.....

No face beards, just lower beards.

Golarion female Dwarves do not have face beards. That's Canon.

Cheers for canon statements!

Cheers for DMs who can change every rule in the book! In my campaigns, female dwarves will ALWAYS have beards. Canon be damned. :P

I'm still interested in seeing a hair-based intelligence fighter. I think Hexcrafter Magus may be a great path for it. It would be hilarious to make your prehensile hair your Black Blade or Kensai weapon...


Just make sure you kick in the first 2 Kirin Style feats to add 2xInt mod to damage after you make a successful attack, that's 3xInt to damage with the hair 1/round, since you use Int for Str with the hair.


Millia Rage much ?


lets see. feral combat training always brings panther style to mind, since charging around smacking people who AoO you is great, but it takes some investment to really capitalize on (though just combat reflexes is great by itself on a dex-y build, dodge/mobility/spring attack/wind stance really make it shine).

i second the hexcrafter idea, actually, since a dex/int focus plays well off that class/archetype--elf seems a decent choice, since it gets both and you can grab extra arcana's with their favored class bonus (every 6 levels, iirc).


TGMaxMaxer wrote:
Just make sure you kick in the first 2 Kirin Style feats to add 2xInt mod to damage after you make a successful attack, that's 3xInt to damage with the hair 1/round, since you use Int for Str with the hair.

The problem with this from what I can tell is it takes two swift actions per enemy type to get it rolling. Unless I am reading it wrong which I hope I am but the wording is a bit funny.


White-haired Witch + Whirlwind Attack.


@Stome You make the knowledge roll as one action, and it applies until you make another knowledge roll against a new target. So yes, no damage as swift the first round, but after that it sticks until you choose a new creature to identify.

But I would usually say that the Knowledge check would be in with the first round i cast a spell, then i move to attack anyways, especially if you have something like shocking/acid grasp somehow for that first hit.


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

@Stome You make the knowledge roll as one action, and it applies until you make another knowledge roll against a new target. So yes, no damage as swift the first round, but after that it sticks until you choose a new creature to identify.

But I would usually say that the Knowledge check would be in with the first round i cast a spell, then i move to attack anyways, especially if you have something like shocking/acid grasp somehow for that first hit.

Well this is kind of a downer for a Hexcrafter hair warrior as they also need a swift action arcane pool temp enchantments.

Could work for Witch but honestly I feel sacred witchdoctor might be a better choice.

Though it is interesting that this concept has at least 3 different options for building it. I would be curious to see how they compare to one another.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Scarred Witch Doctor will be a better path. Nab Prehensile Hair Hex.

Go Human, or Scion of Humanity Archon-Blooded Aasimar.

Your Hair attacks will be constitution based.

Start there.

You really don't want to do this. Having to burn a standard action to draw/activate your weapon every time you want to use it AND only being able to use it for 1 minute per level is just a bad deal.

@mplindustries, There are 2 significant issues with your proposed witch/monk build.
First, since using any of the options other than grab now require a swift action (limiting you to only 1 each round) going anything past a 2 level dip into white haired witch is going to be an exercise in frustration.

Second, with the errata for flurry you could only use your hair attack for one of your flurry attacks and the rest of your Flurry would be punches and kicks.

The white haired witch archetype is a really bad witch archetype (should have been a monk one) and it really only works well with the Magus (I've been trying to fit it into a barbarian or ranger build and it's not horrible but it just really clicks with the Magus perfectly).

Trying to mix it with any full bab class puts you into a MAD situation (needing str/con/dex & Int spreads you so thin it's really not worth it). Witch (WHW) 2/Magus (hexcrafter) 4 is about perfect, you only need to worry about 2 stats (Int and Con), you keep all your spellcasting ability (with extra 1st lvl spells), have built in class features that overcome the 3/4 bab issue and can not only nova extremely hard you have consistent high regular damage and get to keep all your hexes as well.
It's actually almost a perfect build for a character (could use more HP's though).


While the standard action is a bit of a downer its not that bad. Maybe a build takes a "buff" round. The limited amount of time on the hex is a non-issue after lvl 5. Very rarely does a combat last more then 1 min.

Would it be nice if it had better action economy or duration? Sure but its hardly useless.


Stome wrote:

While the standard action is a bit of a downer its not that bad. Maybe a build takes a "buff" round. The limited amount of time on the hex is a non-issue after lvl 5. Very rarely does a combat last more then 1 min.

Would it be nice if it had better action economy or duration? Sure but its hardly useless.

I think it bears a bit more elaboration.

This is not a round to buff (like a cleric or druid using divine power/wild shape).

This is like taking a standard action every combat to draw your sword. When your primary goal in combat is to hit people with that sword then that action economy is absolutely painful.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
TarkXT wrote:
Stome wrote:

While the standard action is a bit of a downer its not that bad. Maybe a build takes a "buff" round. The limited amount of time on the hex is a non-issue after lvl 5. Very rarely does a combat last more then 1 min.

Would it be nice if it had better action economy or duration? Sure but its hardly useless.

I think it bears a bit more elaboration.

This is not a round to buff (like a cleric or druid using divine power/wild shape).

This is like taking a standard action every combat to draw your sword. When your primary goal in combat is to hit people with that sword then that action economy is absolutely painful.

It's even worse then that actually. Add on you can only draw your sword a number of times per day equal to your level.

First few levels are going to be REALLY hard.


Per the Races Guide only orcs can be scarred witch doctors.


Devastation Bob wrote:
Per the Races Guide only orcs can be scarred witch doctors.

More correctly, any Humanoid race with the 'orc' subtype. That includes Orcs, Half-Orcs, Humans (and other humanoids with 'human' subtype) with Racial Heritage(orc), and custom races that have 'orc' as a subtype (ie. a Humanoid(orc, goblin)).


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
First, since using any of the options other than grab now require a swift action (limiting you to only 1 each round) going anything past a 2 level dip into white haired witch is going to be an exercise in frustration.

Yeah, that's pretty lame, but 10' of reach is maybe worth 4 levels? And stopping verbal components and having 15' of reach could theoretically be worth 8?

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Second, with the errata for flurry you could only use your hair attack for one of your flurry attacks and the rest of your Flurry would be punches and kicks.

I read the errata and totally disagree with your interpretation. The errata/faq clarified that it let you use your natural weapon as part of the flurry, not in addition to the flurry (i.e. as an extra attack at BAB-5). You can use your Natural Weapon for every attack in the flurry, just as you can use your Unarmed Strike for every attack in the flurry, or a single temple sword for every attack.

Of course, now you have me doubting and worried that there's been some new errata released that I haven't read...

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
The white haired witch archetype is a really bad witch archetype

I think it's bad as a 20 level archetype, yeah, but for a dip? I think it works--or maybe I just hope it does.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Trying to mix it with any full bab class puts you into a MAD situation (needing str/con/dex & Int spreads you so thin it's really not worth it).

Well, I disagree that it's MAD because I disagree with your reading of the FAQ/Errata. It should need only a single stat--Intelligence (well, and everyone needs Con).

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Witch (WHW) 2/Magus (hexcrafter) 4 is about perfect, you only need to worry about 2 stats (Int and Con), you keep all your spellcasting ability (with extra 1st lvl spells), have built in class features that overcome the 3/4 bab issue and can not only nova extremely hard you have consistent high regular damage and get to keep all your hexes as well.

It's actually almost a perfect build for a character (could use more HP's though).

You don't think the 20/x2 crit ruins the Magus? It was my impression that they relied on having an expanded crit range to make up for their shortcomings.

I mean, I do like the Defiler build a lot, but I do wish it had more reach. And really, since my hair is a natural weapon, I can already essentially "spell strike" with it, can't I? I could just go Straight Witch, lose out on a couple BAB (admittedly rough) and have more reach and spellcasting power.

And I don't know--seems like a Witch/Monk/Lore Warden would lead to a scary high CMB for grappling, which seems like the natural place to take this kind of build, considering the Constrict ability.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I know it was said, but wanted to add a link:

Milia Rage


GrenMeera wrote:

I know it was said, but wanted to add a link:

Milia Rage

Ha, you know the first time it was brought up, I assumed it was some kind of butchering of a feat name, like maybe "Militia Rage" or some combo like Militia trainint plus Rage or whatever that I couldn't find.

I've never played Guilty Gears, nor do I think this character looks anything like what I picture for a character using this build. If I had to go with any video game character, I'd lean way more towards Sindel from Mortal Kombat than anything else, but even that doesn't quite fit the image in my head.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

@mplindustriesI'm not referring to the faq entry on the Feral combat training, I'm talking about the latest faq entry on Flurry of Blows. There are 3 500+ posts complaining about it.
Roughly what they did was state when using any weapon in a flurry of blows it replaces 1 of your FoB attacks with that weapon strike, the rest of the attacks are kicks/punches/elbows/etc. Now since they FCT faq states that natural weapon is treated as a monk weapon then it falls under this new ruling. You get 1 strike with your hair in a FoB.

Anyway, if you want 15ft reach simply cast enlarge on yourself or take the lunge feat, or take prehensile hair hex at 4th level magus (or all 3) and get a 20 foot reach with your hair. That's the perk of this build you can do any or all of this.

As for the crit range issue that's only important if you want to use direct damage spells all the time. My defiler build was all about battlefield control and imposing status effects. When you need to do the direct damage and want that crit rating then pull out your rapier/scimitar and channel your spells through it. Nothing says you can't have both options available.

Cheliax

I think it might be a tie on the humiliation scale between falling off your horse and dying at level 1 versus being beaten to death by someone's hair.

Not that either has ever happened to me...

Stop looking at me like that.


mplindustries wrote:
GrenMeera wrote:

I know it was said, but wanted to add a link:

Milia Rage

Ha, you know the first time it was brought up, I assumed it was some kind of butchering of a feat name, like maybe "Militia Rage" or some combo like Militia trainint plus Rage or whatever that I couldn't find.

I've never played Guilty Gears, nor do I think this character looks anything like what I picture for a character using this build. If I had to go with any video game character, I'd lean way more towards Sindel from Mortal Kombat than anything else, but even that doesn't quite fit the image in my head.

i thought of sani from Toriko, personally.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I'm still missing something. How are you managing to use INT for hitting? On paper, hair use INT for damage and CMB only.

On the Feral Combat FAQ, quoting

Quote:
.....The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.


Lamontius wrote:


I think it might be a tie on the humiliation scale between falling off your horse and dying at level 1 versus being beaten to death by someone's hair.

Not that either has ever happened to me...

Stop looking at me like that.

I have had 3 different character, in 3 different campaigns, to be killed by having a dragon fall on me after I killed it.

There are only so many times I can be tea bagged to death before you snap.


Lamontius, that is not something to be embarassed about. This is: I'd definitely prefer the hair death, but I have ulterior motives that are not appropriate to talk about where kids could see. See perspective. Now that uncomfortable feeling is not your fault. Which is.....better?

Also, oddly, the witch spell list has an out of place 1st level spell that would work well with the witch/monk build: ki arrow. Just use an arrow and throw your unarmed strike up to 100 ft away. Why even have that? Sure, bards and sorc/wiz get it too, but why? I know this is not much as far as advice goes, but I just happened to find this and wondered why bother unless they wanted spellcasters to go monk.

The int to hit might be based on a few vagaries with the white haired archetype, and maybe use of prehensile hair in conjunction. If you view the two as combining during use, then you'd treat "her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score." But I might be stretching it to believe that would mean you'd treat your int as str for both damage and hit (with a comparison being an arm with a claw attack). Only reason I could explain taking it as a hex on the defiler build for anything other than reach though. This is probably why white haired witches do not get any hexes at all, to avoid such confusions. Oh how they have underestimated us.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Dekalinder wrote:

I'm still missing something. How are you managing to use INT for hitting? On paper, hair use INT for damage and CMB only.

On the Feral Combat FAQ, quoting

Quote:
.....The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.

If you are going to quote something quote it all.

SKR wrote:


Feral Combat Training (page 101): What does “with” in the Special line for this feat mean for monks making a flurry of blows?

Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows (Core Rulebook 57). Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.

The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.

—Sean K Reynolds, 02/15/12

Note the date there? Now look at this post:

flurry rule
Quote:

- Mechanically, there's very little difference between an item that's enhancing only a monk's left fist and an item that's enhancing all of a monk's unarmed strikes. There's nothing stopping a monk from hitting someone seven times with his left fist, just like there's nothing stopping him from hitting someone seven times with his +2 Flaming Kama.

Actually, because the rules say a monk's flurry is as if he's using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, he can't simply declare that he's using the same fist seven times. So there is something stopping him from hitting someone seven times with his left fist or a +2 flaming kama: the rules for how flurry works.

Now follow that up with this quote where it comes from SKR and Jason Buhlmanflurry nerf

Quote:

I just double-checked with Jason, and my statement is correct. Flurry works like TWF. You can't pick your best weapon and use it for all of your flurry attacks.

We're really talking about two different situations. Say we have a monk15 doing a flurry of blows. His attack sequence is +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3.

1) If all of his potential attacks are identical (for example, all he's doing are unarmed strikes and none of his unarmed strikes are enhanced by magic fang or any other effect that would give it a different attack bonus or damage value, it doesn't matter if you justify all six of those as punches, all six as headbutts, all six as kicks, or three as kicks and three as punches, or punch kick knee elbow elbow headbutt, because those attacks are identical in terms of attack and damage. That's what the "any combination" text in the flurry rule means--the difference between the attacks is just flavor and has no game effect, so you can use them in any combination because what you call it has no effect on the dice.
(Just like if you have a TWF fighter using two identical +1 short swords with identical attack and damage bonuses, it doesn't really matter for each individual attack if he's using the left shortsword or the right shortsword, declaring it doesn't affect the dice, he can roll all his attack dice at the same time and doesn't have to call them out separately.)

2) If even one of the monk's potential attack forms is not identical to the others, such as using a special monk weapon with an attack bonus or damage different than his unarmed strike, or having magic fang on one hand but not any other body part, now the order and identity of each attack matters, and you have to specify what you're attacking with and you have to abide by the TWF rules because your decisions affect the die rolls. In other words that monk15 is actually making attacks with two weapons, one with a main attack bonus of +13 and iteratives at +8/+3, and another with a main attack bonus of +13 and iteratives at +8/+3. So if you have a +5 sai in your left hand and a normal sai in your right hand, you can't say you're using the +5 sai for all six of your attacks, you're doing +13/+8/+3 with the left hand (adding the sai's +5 enhancement bonus, of course) and +13/+8/+3 with the right hand.
Jason says that in this situation, the "any combination" text means you can swap in a regular unarmed strike in place of any of those attacks (though that's not clear in the text). (Doing so affects the attack and damage rolls for that attack, of course.) So you could swap out your left-hand +8 attack for an unarmed strike such as a kick or elbow (losing the +5 enhancement bonus to that attack because you're not actually using the +5 sai to make that attack), swap out all of the right-hand sai attacks for unarmed strikes, and so on, but you're still abiding by the TWF setup in that you have a series of attacks with one weapon and a series of attacks with your other weapon.

TLDR: (1) Flurry is based on TWF. (2) If all your attacks are identical, declaring which weapon is which is pure flavor and doesn't affect the dice, so go ahead an call them whatever you want. (3) If even one of your attacks is different than the others, you have to follow the TWF rules when flurrying; you can't just declare all of your flurry of blows attacks to be your best weapon because you can't do that with TWF.
SKR Mar 9, 2012, 01:06 PM

So in this case using that natural attack in a flurry means you get to use it to swap out 1 of your flurry of blows attacks while the rest of them go back to being unarmed strikes.

This post came out after that one so it takes precedence.


That is absolute garbage. Concept ruined. Well, no, it still gets full iterative attacks, just won't get the bonus "off-hand attacks" with the hair.

That ruling is nonsense, though, and kind of ruins monks.

I know they wrote the game, but crap, it just seems like they forgot what they were doing when they did.

In 3rd edition, Flurry of Blows provided straight up bonus attacks. Eventually people figured out you could make a flurry and dual wield for even more attacks.

Pathfinder went, "oh crap, ok that's too many attacks." So, they made Flurry of Blows a kind of phantom TWF so you couldn't combine the two. That's all. It wasn't meant to be TWF to screw monk weapon usage or anything like that. Or at least I assumed it wasn't...


Yeah, that does leave a lot of questions. While am not going to try to argue about the hair, what about claw attacks for example? With a normal flurry of blows, you can just say you punch the opponent X number of times. Claws are a similar motion, so why not? This problem is especially apparent in tengus that take the claws racial feature. Their claws do the same damage as an unarmed strike, and are treated like one for feats. It is merely meant as a replacement for punches since it tends to hard to punch with clawed hands. So would it be treated as such for flurry of blows? While some natural attacks, such as bite or tail slap, are relatively easy to understand since they are so far removed from normal attacks made by humans, they can be easily placed in their own little corner, others are not so simple.

Although I'll admit, while it would be easy to program all the little niche rules in a computer game, this is tabletop. They have to set up rules that are relatively easy to understand in order to make it accessible and attract customers, and sometimes sweeping generalizations are useful when the circumstance only comes up in an rare, highly specialized build.


That ruling on Flurry is stupid and I will not be using it in any game I run.


Whisperknives wrote:

That ruling on Flurry is stupid and I will not be using it in any game I run.

I think a great majority of the playerbase feels that way.

But regardless, it still sort of works (I'd only get one less hair attack than I expected), so I would ask that we not lose sight of the greater issue: making my hair warrior awesome!

Is it consensus that Hexcrafter Magus is the best route? Is there some good way to extend Intelligence to AC (Kensai Magus? Duelist?)? I've never built a grappler--how does one go about doing that?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

@lemeres For the claws it's pretty simple. If you have 2 claws and are a X level monk you could replace 2 of your FoB's with the claw attack and use whatever attacks are left over as kicks/headbutts/knees/etc. No major change for you until you either got more claws to use or more FoB attacks.

@whisperknives, it's your game run it how ever you want. Just understand that all published modules and all PFS games are currently required to use this current interpretation.

@mplindustries, Hexcrafter is absolutely the best option. White haired witch takes away all your hexes and Hexcrafter gives them all back.
With a 2 level dip into WhW you can do things no other grapple build can do, you get to do a real attack that does damage and STILL initiate a grapple and not get grapple condition yourself. This is awesome, everyone else has to take a -20 on the CMB check but you get it for free. You also don't have to take improved grapple to avoid the aoo when starting a grapple so you keep a feat. Finally you can use a magus arcana to get maneuver master and use your magus level as your bab for making the CMB check as well as drop an arcane point to get your int bonus added to the CMB.
these options make you a better grapple build then every other build in the game (Tetori monks are really close though).


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
@lemeres For the claws it's pretty simple. If you have 2 claws and are a X level monk you could replace 2 of your FoB's with the claw attack and use whatever attacks are left over as kicks/headbutts/knees/etc. No major change for you until you either got more claws to use or more FoB attacks.

I don't want to get too lost in this debate, but that ruling just means you need two weapons. Claws are two weapons. Hence, you can make half the attacks with one claw and half with the other.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

@mplindustries, Hexcrafter is absolutely the best option. White haired witch takes away all your hexes and Hexcrafter gives them all back.

With a 2 level dip into WhW you can do things no other grapple build can do, you get to do a real attack that does damage and STILL initiate a grapple and not get grapple condition yourself. This is awesome, everyone else has to take a -20 on the CMB check but you get it for free. You also don't have to take improved grapple to avoid the aoo when starting a grapple so you keep a feat. Finally you can use a magus arcana to get maneuver master and use your magus level as your bab for making the CMB check as well as drop an arcane point to get your int bonus added to the CMB.
these options make you a better grapple build then every other build in the game (Tetori monks are really close though).

Yeah, but are getting my hexes back really worth losing better spellcasting from just sticking with Witch? Or I don't know, other features from other classes? I mean, nothing says I can't be a White-Haired Witch and Tetori, for example.


Ah, now I get the int to hit they were talking about, it was arcane accuracy. Well, it Int already handling damage, and the opportunity to have it have it do the hit, you can just pump it up and that would give you enough of an arcane pool to work with for every turn. Especially effective if you use that defiler build, since you can just leave your opponents writhing while you go the next to debuff.

To answer the question, mplindustries: while I am not entirely familiar with magus, it looks like you can do spell combat and spell strike in the same round, meaning two attacks from you hair at BAB-2. So that is an attack -2, touch spell, use of attack -2 for the touch spell, and you still have a move that could go before or after. So it would be extremely useful. Two near full bab attacks in the same round is great, and you get to throw a touch spell in there too (there is an arcana for Hexcrafter that lets you use any curse, touch or not, for it too). So over all great it seems. Just taking the two levels to get this ability would be a great dip.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
@lemeres For the claws it's pretty simple. If you have 2 claws and are a X level monk you could replace 2 of your FoB's with the claw attack and use whatever attacks are left over as kicks/headbutts/knees/etc. No major change for you until you either got more claws to use or more FoB attacks.

I don't want to get too lost in this debate, but that ruling just means you need two weapons. Claws are two weapons. Hence, you can make half the attacks with one claw and half with the other.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

@mplindustries, Hexcrafter is absolutely the best option. White haired witch takes away all your hexes and Hexcrafter gives them all back.

With a 2 level dip into WhW you can do things no other grapple build can do, you get to do a real attack that does damage and STILL initiate a grapple and not get grapple condition yourself. This is awesome, everyone else has to take a -20 on the CMB check but you get it for free. You also don't have to take improved grapple to avoid the aoo when starting a grapple so you keep a feat. Finally you can use a magus arcana to get maneuver master and use your magus level as your bab for making the CMB check as well as drop an arcane point to get your int bonus added to the CMB.
these options make you a better grapple build then every other build in the game (Tetori monks are really close though).
Yeah, but are getting my hexes back really worth losing better spellcasting from just sticking with Witch? Or I don't know, other features from other classes? I mean, nothing says I can't be a White-Haired Witch and Tetori, for example.

There's actually a follow up from Jason Buhlman that restricts it even further that states you would only ever get 1 attack with each weapon you wield. 20th level monk with 8 attacks a round, only 2 of those could be claws, the rest would be unarmed strikes. It's actually really depressing for would-be feral monk players.

Anyway, Hexes are by far the most flexible/powerful abilities you could want (solid save or suck, great utility and obscenely powerful at the major and great hex level). At will flight, permanent feather fall, free reincarnation, scaling sleep spell and at will planar summoning. I can't see why anyone wouldn't take them if they could.

As for losing spellcasting you are only giving up 2 levels from your main spellcasting class so you get full access to all the spell levels, just a level or 2 later.

@lemeres, not quite. When you take hexcrafter and pick up prehensile hair hex it lets you use your int bonus to attack when you attack with it, these 2 powers complement so you are using your Int bonus for EVERYTHING in combat while still being able to use arcane accuracy & your arcane pool to get your hit bonus higher then anyone else in the game while keeping full spellcasting AND solid melee damage while getting past the natural attack rule only allowing 1 attack per nat weapon per round. My Defiler easily gets 3 hair attacks a round at +20ish to hit and +15 to damage before adding spell damage to it at 10th level.
It's like you take a raging greataxe wielding barbarian and mix it with a Full bard with a splash of Evoker sorcerer all at once. Nothing lives past the second round if I want it dead.


So that is two attacks from the magus spellcombat and spell strike with the white hair, and an extra prehensile hair because.....why not when it works with everything else? Sure, that seems extremely powerful, especially with arcane accuracy adding your int to hit. And that is before you add anything like Amulet of Mighty Fists or Power Attack, right? Even if prehensile hair is a secondary natural attack, you would be able to hit it about as reliably as most other natural attack builds' primary attacks.

This seems like synthesists on the scale of overpowered builds. The only real problem I could imagine is the GM taking advantage of your poor Reflex save and just trying to send an army of blasters after you. Some GM's might end up making it their mission to take out this character.

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