paizo.com Recent Posts in Make me into an Evil Bastardpaizo.com Recent Posts in Make me into an Evil Bastard2012-11-08T22:38:02Z2012-11-08T22:38:02ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardFizzygoohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#482014-02-17T09:43:44Z2014-02-17T09:43:44Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kobold Cleaver wrote:</div><blockquote> Fizzygoo certainly isn't wrong, though I think there's a time for compelling, tragic villains and a time for a villain who's just an a•&#%!•. It's good to balance the two without going all in one direction. </blockquote><p>I like your thinking, KC :)
<p>a•&#%!• NPCs are great all around, including avoiding cartoonish evil villains. </p>
<p>In the campaign I'm running currently, for the first couple of months, I kept having townsfolk and merchants mention how horrible and terrible this bandit, the Ironhide Kid, and his troupe is, always raiding caravans coming to their city but never often enough for authorities to get a fix on the bandit's location. With the lieutenants, a vicious gnoll fist-fighter, named Zengyek, and a dwarven gunslinger, the people were afraid of the bandits even though they had never robbed anything in town. But overall the info the PCs are getting indicates that these bandits are well above their level.</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>Kobold Cleaver wrote:Fizzygoo certainly isn't wrong, though I think there's a time for compelling, tragic villains and a time for a villain who's just an a*&#%!*. It's good to balance the two without going all in one direction.
I like your thinking, KC :) a*&#%!* NPCs are great all around, including avoiding cartoonish evil villains.
In the campaign I'm running currently, for the first couple of months, I kept having townsfolk and merchants mention how horrible and terrible this bandit, the...Fizzygoo2014-02-17T09:43:44ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardKobold Catgirlhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#472014-02-17T08:35:56Z2014-02-17T05:43:54Z<p>Fizzygoo certainly isn't wrong, though I think there's a time for compelling, tragic villains and a time for a villain who's just an a•+~+&•. It's good to balance the two without going all in one direction.</p>Fizzygoo certainly isn't wrong, though I think there's a time for compelling, tragic villains and a time for a villain who's just an a~~~##~. It's good to balance the two without going all in one direction.Kobold Catgirl2014-02-17T05:43:54ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardFizzygoohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#462014-02-17T08:36:22Z2014-02-17T04:17:40Z<p>"Bad isn't that bad when you're doing it to bad girls." - Shirley Bennett giving in to the corruption of power (Community S2E7).</p>
<p>As many have previously stated in various ways; evil NPCs are only evil by their actions...in the game. It doesn't matter what their race, species, class, etc., are, that's all flavoring to the main course. </p>
<p>Writing "Alignment: [Something]Evil" on an NPC's sheet doesn't truly make them evil. Sure, if they're powerful enough to have an aura they'll register as evil when a detect evil spell is lobbed in their face but it's still a bland dressing on the undiscovered meal. </p>
<p>None of the OP examples have any action seasonings (evil or otherwise), save the drug war example but nothing in that example has the overpowering taste of evil: The wizards corner the market on potions. Hemp is outlawed...even though it's nearly eradicated. The only hint of non-good in the whole example is that people have been made to fear the sea god as a farce by the temples. But no explanation for why the temple is doing so. Any number of ingredients could be included that would actually make the wizards, or the druids, or the temples evil or good or neutral.</p>
<p>In creative writing terms, the OP is an example of telling, not showing. </p>
<p>It's the difference between;</p>
<p>"The landlord was an evil man."
<br />
and
<br />
"With a final stroke of his pen, the landlord ensured his pockets would be filled and the orphanage would be torn down by the end of the week; sending hundreds of children into the winter-frozen streets of the city."</p>
<p>What is it that the tieflings, goblins, ratfolk, and fallen angels do that makes them evil...or at least makes the "normal" peoples of the world think they're evil...or are those just cultural examples for the campaign in which to work in order to form evil villains?</p>
<p>Each one of those first four entries should have a sentence that starts with "And now they are..." describing how they fit in (or don't) with the rest of civilization, describing what makes them evil.</p>
<p>For example...</p>
<p>"And the tieflings, in their rage against evil foreparents, strike out unmercifully against cults in the capital city at night, caring not if innocents are slain in the process."</p>
<p>"And the primate goblins have been stealing small children from the border villages to use as sacrifices to their ancestor-god."</p>
<p>"And the ratfolk view the civilized humans (or what ever) as debauched and barbarous, the monks seek out to convert the humans by any means available to become second-class citizens in their society."</p>
<p>"And the fallen angles seek redemption through the honor of mounted combat with all who encroach upon their territory as they think by reaching a specific number of "honorable" kills can they regain their wings."</p>
<p>With something like that, you now have the base ingredients to draw upon to make less-cartoony BBEGs and their minions, along with good NPCs within those groups that can help the PCs; traitors to their kind as they see the evil being done, opposition parties, etc. </p>
<p>As for the Wizards/Druids/Temple situation. If the wizards have formed an "alchemical guild" that ensures the quality of the potions and ingredients used to make them...then far from evil. If they use the power of their monopoly to kill independent potion-makers then we're moving in the "right" direction for making an evil organization. Who made the hemp illegal and why? Was the whole city using it far more than recreationally in the past, causing the populace to stop working and just feed off the fish they fished from the fisheries which caused the temple to grow angry that all they got was fish bones in the collection plates so they made hemp illegal and paid the druids to eradicate the plant, paid them with fish until the last boats fell to ruin so now the druids are turning to making potions in opposition to the alchemical guild?</p>"Bad isn't that bad when you're doing it to bad girls." - Shirley Bennett giving in to the corruption of power (Community S2E7).
As many have previously stated in various ways; evil NPCs are only evil by their actions...in the game. It doesn't matter what their race, species, class, etc., are, that's all flavoring to the main course.
Writing "Alignment: [Something]Evil" on an NPC's sheet doesn't truly make them evil. Sure, if they're powerful enough to have an aura they'll register as evil...Fizzygoo2014-02-17T04:17:40ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardHamahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#452014-02-17T00:28:10Z2014-02-17T00:28:10Z<p>A simple answer.</p>
<p>Home? Not that much.
<br />
Loved ones? There is very little I wouldn't commit to protect my loved ones.
<br />
Culture or religion? Couldn't care less.</p>A simple answer.
Home? Not that much.
Loved ones? There is very little I wouldn't commit to protect my loved ones.
Culture or religion? Couldn't care less.Hama2014-02-17T00:28:10ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil Bastardstrayshifthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#442014-02-17T00:03:16Z2014-02-17T00:03:16Z<p>Ask yourself this: In defence of your home and loved ones, hell maybe even an idea, culture or religion (thank you Ernest Becker) - What WOULD you do?</p>
<p>Or perhaps the answer should be what wouldn't you do?</p>
<p>Also the opposite of evil is technically 'Good', how easy would it be to set people up against an altruistic goal (say combatting global warming, achieving world peace or even free medical care for everyone)?</p>
<p>Take morality and god out of any desired goal, then seek to achieve it in the most efficient fashion, some evil will come of this (and yes, that does sound like capitalism at work).</p>Ask yourself this: In defence of your home and loved ones, hell maybe even an idea, culture or religion (thank you Ernest Becker) - What WOULD you do?
Or perhaps the answer should be what wouldn't you do?
Also the opposite of evil is technically 'Good', how easy would it be to set people up against an altruistic goal (say combatting global warming, achieving world peace or even free medical care for everyone)?
Take morality and god out of any desired goal, then seek to achieve it in the...strayshift2014-02-17T00:03:16ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil Bastardlucky7 (alias of Elizabeth Brasell)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#432014-02-16T03:09:37Z2014-02-16T03:09:37Z<p>One of my favorite villains started out strong. Ruled an entire region. He got greedy, fell in with dark powers, and went from fearsome war chief to doorstop in a few short months. When he met the PCs for the third time, he offered to help them, forcing them to questions what to do.</p>One of my favorite villains started out strong. Ruled an entire region. He got greedy, fell in with dark powers, and went from fearsome war chief to doorstop in a few short months. When he met the PCs for the third time, he offered to help them, forcing them to questions what to do.lucky7 (alias of Elizabeth Brasell)2014-02-16T03:09:37ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardHamahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#422014-02-15T23:16:29Z2014-02-15T23:16:29Z<p>I am also selfish and egotistical. It cost me my longest and happiest relationship. I would still choose them over me.</p>I am also selfish and egotistical. It cost me my longest and happiest relationship. I would still choose them over me.Hama2014-02-15T23:16:29ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardRynjinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#412014-02-15T23:14:48Z2014-02-15T22:34:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Hama wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Sorry, extreme opinions never work. 1 person dying instead of a 1000 is much better. Sucks for that 1 person, sure. But if I was given a choice in between the villain shooting me or setting a thousand people on fire?
<br />
Id say "shoot" in a heartbeat. Not to do so is extremely selfish and, honestly so egotistical... </blockquote><p>As a selfish and egotistical person, I have to say those 1000 people aren't nearly as important to me as I am.Hama wrote:Sorry, extreme opinions never work. 1 person dying instead of a 1000 is much better. Sucks for that 1 person, sure. But if I was given a choice in between the villain shooting me or setting a thousand people on fire?
Id say "shoot" in a heartbeat. Not to do so is extremely selfish and, honestly so egotistical...
As a selfish and egotistical person, I have to say those 1000 people aren't nearly as important to me as I am.Rynjin2014-02-15T22:34:14ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardKobold Catgirlhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#402014-02-17T00:04:54Z2014-02-15T20:41:04Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kobold Cleaver wrote:</div><blockquote>Mother Gotham, from "Tangled".</blockquote><p>Oh god oh god it's Mother <b>Gothel</b> you stupid stupid lizard rat creature.Kobold Cleaver wrote:Mother Gotham, from "Tangled".
Oh god oh god it's Mother Gothel you stupid stupid lizard rat creature.Kobold Catgirl2014-02-15T20:41:04ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardTimDhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#392014-02-15T17:20:49Z2014-02-15T17:20:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tels wrote:</div><blockquote> Holy Necros Batman! </blockquote><p>...too true. Wow.
<p>-TimD</p>Tels wrote:Holy Necros Batman!
...too true. Wow. -TimDTimD2014-02-15T17:20:49ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardTelshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#382014-02-14T22:43:36Z2014-02-14T22:43:36Z<p>Holy Necros Batman!</p>Holy Necros Batman!Tels2014-02-14T22:43:36ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardMatt Thomasonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#372014-02-14T22:53:12Z2014-02-14T22:40:15Z<p>Have an NPC invent mobile games with a pay-to-win model. Ultimate evil in a nutshell.</p>Have an NPC invent mobile games with a pay-to-win model. Ultimate evil in a nutshell.Matt Thomason2014-02-14T22:40:15ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardTimDhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#362014-02-14T22:26:29Z2014-02-14T22:26:29Z<p>Always happy to assist others with Team Evil™ … well, team LE anyway. Those others can be tools. :)</p>
<p>At any rate, I’m a bit confused by the intent of your original post:</p>
<p>Are you seeking assistance in reflavoring / refocusing your existing world elements to a more evil bend.
<br />
Are you requesting assistance in writing more evil into your world and giving examples of what you have done for comparison & contrast’ sake?
<br />
Are you asking advice on how to write / run a “better evil”?
<br />
Is this a clever scheme to find out how the Team Evil™ cookies are made? (HINT: no bake cookies are generally the best for those just starting their evil path as the brimstone smell often ruins the flavor of those baked in the hellish ovens if not properly accounted for)
<br />
Are you seeking a way to properly flavor your evil for better conflict with PCs to have them (or you) more invested in your story?
<br />
Other: (please specify)
<br />
Some combination of the above (please specify)</p>
<p>-TimD</p>
<p>P.S. good advise up-thread if that's what you're looking for!</p>Always happy to assist others with Team Evil™ … well, team LE anyway. Those others can be tools. :)
At any rate, I’m a bit confused by the intent of your original post:
Are you seeking assistance in reflavoring / refocusing your existing world elements to a more evil bend.
Are you requesting assistance in writing more evil into your world and giving examples of what you have done for comparison & contrast’ sake?
Are you asking advice on how to write / run a “better evil”?
Is this a clever...TimD2014-02-14T22:26:29ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardTacticslionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#352014-02-14T21:45:10Z2014-02-14T21:45:10Z<p>Dot.</p>Dot.Tacticslion2014-02-14T21:45:10ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardFlamewar (alias of Tin Foil Yamakah)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#342014-02-16T02:12:17Z2014-02-14T21:40:08Z<p><b>YEEEESSSSSSS!</b></p>YEEEESSSSSSS!Flamewar (alias of Tin Foil Yamakah)2014-02-14T21:40:08ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardHamahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#332014-02-14T21:36:08Z2014-02-14T21:36:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Orthos wrote:</div><blockquote> Or find a third option. </blockquote><p>You're funny.Orthos wrote:Or find a third option.
You're funny.Hama2014-02-14T21:36:08ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardOrthoshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#322014-02-16T02:13:47Z2014-02-14T21:20:22Z<p>Or find a third option.</p>Or find a third option.Orthos2014-02-14T21:20:22ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardHamahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#312014-02-14T21:06:26Z2014-02-14T21:06:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">yellowdingo wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Icyshadow wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I feel like throwing my objection on the whole Greater Good thing, but I'd rather not start a huge morality argument.</p>
<p>However, I will say that between killing 2 people to save 1000 or doing the reverse, I'd believe that most would go for the first option. </blockquote><p>As one of the 2 people likely to be sacrificed I say go sacrifice your self...
<p>As Sigourney Weaver Said: "Well Screw That!" </blockquote><p>Sorry, extreme opinions never work. 1 person dying instead of a 1000 is much better. Sucks for that 1 person, sure. But if I was given a choice in between the villain shooting me or setting a thousand people on fire?
</p>
Id say "shoot" in a heartbeat. Not to do so is extremely selfish and, honestly so egotistical...</p>yellowdingo wrote:Icyshadow wrote:I feel like throwing my objection on the whole Greater Good thing, but I'd rather not start a huge morality argument.
However, I will say that between killing 2 people to save 1000 or doing the reverse, I'd believe that most would go for the first option.
As one of the 2 people likely to be sacrificed I say go sacrifice your self... As Sigourney Weaver Said: "Well Screw That!" Sorry, extreme opinions never work. 1 person dying instead of a 1000 is much...Hama2014-02-14T21:06:26ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardRob Godfreyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#302014-02-14T20:17:48Z2014-02-14T20:17:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">yellowdingo wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">jemstone wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Everything Ross just said. Seriously.</p>
<p>I'd also like to add my own two cents here, if I could, in the form of reminding you that a villain need not necessarily be <i>evil</i>, so long as the goals of the villain go against the perceived greater good of the rest of civilization.
<br />
</blockquote>Greater Good? The Greater Good is Evil. To make a decision to take the life of another no matter how you spin it - no matter the laws or justification - That's evil. The only life you have the right to take is your own. </blockquote><p>then all people of good alignment have to be actual pacifists, in your view? Never taking up arms in any circumstances?yellowdingo wrote:jemstone wrote:Everything Ross just said. Seriously.
I'd also like to add my own two cents here, if I could, in the form of reminding you that a villain need not necessarily be evil, so long as the goals of the villain go against the perceived greater good of the rest of civilization.
Greater Good? The Greater Good is Evil. To make a decision to take the life of another no matter how you spin it - no matter the laws or justification - That's evil. The only life you have...Rob Godfrey2014-02-14T20:17:48ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardTelshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#292014-02-16T02:13:09Z2012-11-10T03:32:52Z<p>This whole thread is full of anti-win!</p>This whole thread is full of anti-win!Tels2012-11-10T03:32:52ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil Bastardyellowdingohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#282012-11-10T02:17:27Z2012-11-10T02:17:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Icyshadow wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I feel like throwing my objection on the whole Greater Good thing, but I'd rather not start a huge morality argument.</p>
<p>However, I will say that between killing 2 people to save 1000 or doing the reverse, I'd believe that most would go for the first option. </blockquote><p>As one of the 2 people likely to be sacrificed I say go sacrifice your self...
<p>As Sigourney Weaver Said: "Well Screw That!"</p>Icyshadow wrote:I feel like throwing my objection on the whole Greater Good thing, but I'd rather not start a huge morality argument.
However, I will say that between killing 2 people to save 1000 or doing the reverse, I'd believe that most would go for the first option.
As one of the 2 people likely to be sacrificed I say go sacrifice your self... As Sigourney Weaver Said: "Well Screw That!"yellowdingo2012-11-10T02:17:27ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardKobold Catgirlhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#272012-11-09T20:36:04Z2012-11-09T20:36:04Z<p>Well, there are varying degrees of crazy, to be fair. A smug, sociopathic doppleganger who tries to turn the PCs against each other by any means necessary, for instance.</p>Well, there are varying degrees of crazy, to be fair. A smug, sociopathic doppleganger who tries to turn the PCs against each other by any means necessary, for instance.Kobold Catgirl2012-11-09T20:36:04ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardNephertihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#262012-11-09T20:32:15Z2012-11-09T20:32:15Z<p>well, i do use serial killers, but not all plots can be about hunting them. That's what my slasher plot is with wod hunter. I need to learn non-psychopath evil.</p>well, i do use serial killers, but not all plots can be about hunting them. That's what my slasher plot is with wod hunter. I need to learn non-psychopath evil.Nepherti2012-11-09T20:32:15ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardChief Cook and Bottlewasher (alias of diana ratcliffe)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#252012-11-09T20:09:00Z2012-11-09T20:09:00Z<p>Would you be tempted to make Hannibal Lector redeemable?</p>
<p>Or Matthew Hopkins, the Witchfinder General (brilliantly acted by Vincent Price)?</p>
<p>(Although I don't know that I'd want to get into their heads to play them properly as villains.)</p>Would you be tempted to make Hannibal Lector redeemable?
Or Matthew Hopkins, the Witchfinder General (brilliantly acted by Vincent Price)?
(Although I don't know that I'd want to get into their heads to play them properly as villains.)Chief Cook and Bottlewasher (alias of diana ratcliffe)2012-11-09T20:09:00ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Make me into an Evil BastardNephertihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4yp?Make-me-into-an-Evil-Bastard#242012-11-09T19:40:58Z2012-11-09T19:40:58Z<p>I like the way you talk, kobold cleaver. That has always been my problem. I let the redeeming quality take charge in villains, to the point I don't want to let them be taken down by the party.</p>
<p>I need irredeemable villains. Athelstan could be one.</p>I like the way you talk, kobold cleaver. That has always been my problem. I let the redeeming quality take charge in villains, to the point I don't want to let them be taken down by the party.
I need irredeemable villains. Athelstan could be one.Nepherti2012-11-09T19:40:58Z