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Cackle twice


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Can you use cackle twice in the same turn?


As a move action.. So I would assume, yes, RAW..
Would not allow it on the same person more than 1/round, my RAI.


I don't see any reason why you couldn't.


Rickmeister wrote:

As a move action.. So I would assume, yes, RAW..

Would not allow it on the same person more than 1/round, my RAI.

It would be impossible for it to do anything and not affect the same target twice. Cackle affects everyone within 30' of you. If you use it twice, you didn't move, so it's not going to affect anyone but the same guys twice. And that's ok by the rules. Extending the duration by using both of your significant actions for the turn is not really a good trade.


mplindustries wrote:
Rickmeister wrote:

As a move action.. So I would assume, yes, RAW..

Would not allow it on the same person more than 1/round, my RAI.
It would be impossible for it to do anything and not affect the same target twice. Cackle affects everyone within 30' of you. If you use it twice, you didn't move, so it's not going to affect anyone but the same guys twice. And that's ok by the rules. Extending the duration by using both of your significant actions for the turn is not really a good trade.

There are cases where it's useful. If you want to take a full action next round for some reason - a full round spell for example. It's nice to have a buffer, so you have freedom to move and cast if you need too.

The biggest and potentially abusive use is the fortune hex. Put it on all party members before entering the dungeon and cackle twice a round for a couple of hours. Now everyone has fortune up and you don't have to waste actions in combat or keep cackling every round.

Qadira

cackling twice is more useful when you have a familiar with a wand that ddoors you....cackle ddor cackle again.


thejeff wrote:
The biggest and potentially abusive use is the fortune hex. Put it on all party members before entering the dungeon and cackle twice a round for a couple of hours. Now everyone has fortune up and you don't have to waste actions in combat or keep cackling every round.

Yeah, but then whatever monsters lurk within have had a few hours of warning to get themselves ready and cause some serious pain on parties who take advantage of rules loopholes. Maybe even ambush them with a few groups of baddies who wouldn't normally work together (that were planned as separate encounters within) who don't want to be beaten up by some witch and her friends.

What is the Perception DC for hearing a witch cackling? It can't be too high.


Abyssian wrote:
thejeff wrote:
The biggest and potentially abusive use is the fortune hex. Put it on all party members before entering the dungeon and cackle twice a round for a couple of hours. Now everyone has fortune up and you don't have to waste actions in combat or keep cackling every round.

Yeah, but then whatever monsters lurk within have had a few hours of warning to get themselves ready and cause some serious pain on parties who take advantage of rules loopholes. Maybe even ambush them with a few groups of baddies who wouldn't normally work together (that were planned as separate encounters within) who don't want to be beaten up by some witch and her friends.

What is the Perception DC for hearing a witch cackling? It can't be too high.

So you do it while riding from town to the dungeon. Or in the morning at your camp.

What's the Perception DC for hearing a witch cackling a half mile away?

There are situations where it won't work, of course. But they're not that common.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thankfully we have GMs :)


thejeff wrote:
Abyssian wrote:
thejeff wrote:
The biggest and potentially abusive use is the fortune hex. Put it on all party members before entering the dungeon and cackle twice a round for a couple of hours. Now everyone has fortune up and you don't have to waste actions in combat or keep cackling every round.

Yeah, but then whatever monsters lurk within have had a few hours of warning to get themselves ready and cause some serious pain on parties who take advantage of rules loopholes. Maybe even ambush them with a few groups of baddies who wouldn't normally work together (that were planned as separate encounters within) who don't want to be beaten up by some witch and her friends.

What is the Perception DC for hearing a witch cackling? It can't be too high.

So you do it while riding from town to the dungeon. Or in the morning at your camp.

What's the Perception DC for hearing a witch cackling a half mile away?

There are situations where it won't work, of course. But they're not that common.

So what exactly is the loophole because i'm not seeing it?

Cheliax

The witch takes a -2 penalty to constitution, because her ribs hurt from cackling that long.

Now I understand the whole corset thing.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Brain in a Jar wrote:
So what exactly is the loophole because i'm not seeing it?

Use the fortune hex. It lasts until round 2. In round 2, cackle twice, extending the fortune hex until round 4. In round 3, cackle twice, extending the fortune hex until round 6....

...in round 1000, cackle twice, extending the fortune hex until the end of round 2000.

Then, stop cackling and go adventuring. Your companion has 1000 more rounds of fortune, and you don't have to do anything further to maintain it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think loophole here is used in the sense of "GM didn't think of it, first." Perception of such will vary along the RAWful/RAIotic alignment axis.

I have two houserules I make sure every player hears early:

"If we're all having fun, we're doing it right."

and

"Owlbears love the smell of cheese."


Thornborn wrote:
...the RAWful/RAIotic alignment axis.

That is fantastic and I hope you don't mind me borrowing it.

I usually just remind my players that "anything you can do, I can do with an npc".


Like Ron and Thornborn were saying; maybe not a loophole per se, but an exploitation that seems to be counter to RAI. Also I'm not saying that it can't be done - it certainly can be done. I'm just saying that if, as a GM, you don't want it to be done that there are simple enough measures that can be taken to make players think twice about sitting around cackling all day to extend a hex.

EDIT: My use of a hyphen instead of an em-dash is technically incorrect ;)


Thornborn wrote:

I think loophole here is used in the sense of "GM didn't think of it, first." Perception of such will vary along the RAWful/RAIotic alignment axis.

Not so much GM didn't think of it first, but a probably not intended consequence of rules interaction. I don't think the fortune hex was intended to give a reroll each round for the whole adventure.

It also falls into the category of using combat actions in a untracked non-combat fashion that I'm always a little suspicious of.
"OK, I'm going to do this every 3 seconds for the next 2 hours and everyone else is going to stay within 30' of me the whole time." No piss breaks. No conversation. No one walks away for any reason. Don't take more than a couple of steps. The noise doesn't drive the rest of the group mad. You don't lose your voice. Etc.
Since it's all happening off-stage, it's easy to just ignore the hassle of it all.
Granted, not everyone has to be within 30' the whole time, you can stop briefly and then start again, but none of that gets tracked. Unless you're going to go through the whole thing round by round while everyone does their morning breakfast, break camp, etc routine, you'll just have to assume it's the whole time for everyone.

And I didn't say "loophole", just potentially abusive.


Abyssian wrote:

Like Ron and Thornborn were saying; maybe not a loophole per se, but an exploitation that seems to be counter to RAI. Also I'm not saying that it can't be done - it certainly can be done. I'm just saying that if, as a GM, you don't want it to be done that there are simple enough measures that can be taken to make players think twice about sitting around cackling all day to extend a hex.

Since I don't particularly care about RAW, I'd rather tell the player up front I won't allow something than allow him to base his character around it then go out of my way to keep him from using it.

I'm undecided on this one though.


Ron Lundeen wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
So what exactly is the loophole because i'm not seeing it?

Use the fortune hex. It lasts until round 2. In round 2, cackle twice, extending the fortune hex until round 4. In round 3, cackle twice, extending the fortune hex until round 6....

...in round 1000, cackle twice, extending the fortune hex until the end of round 2000.

Then, stop cackling and go adventuring. Your companion has 1000 more rounds of fortune, and you don't have to do anything further to maintain it.

Cackle doesn't double the duration it only adds +1 round. So Using Cackle twice would only add +2 rounds to the duration.

Round 1: Fortune lasts until round 2.
Round 2: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 4.
Round 3: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 5.
Round 4: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 6.

This is also assuming the Witch does nothing but Cackle in a round.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Ron Lundeen wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
So what exactly is the loophole because i'm not seeing it?

Use the fortune hex. It lasts until round 2. In round 2, cackle twice, extending the fortune hex until round 4. In round 3, cackle twice, extending the fortune hex until round 6....

...in round 1000, cackle twice, extending the fortune hex until the end of round 2000.

Then, stop cackling and go adventuring. Your companion has 1000 more rounds of fortune, and you don't have to do anything further to maintain it.

Cackle doesn't double the duration it only adds +1 round. So Using Cackle twice would only add +2 rounds to the duration.

Round 1: Fortune lasts until round 2.
Round 2: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 4.
Round 3: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 5.
Round 4: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 6.

This is also assuming the Witch does nothing but Cackle in a round.

Your math is off. You're right that it doesn't double the duration, but cackling for X rounds still gives you 2X total rounds of cackle or X rounds left when you stop.

Round 1: Fortune lasts until round 2. (1 more round)
Round 2: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 4. (2 more rounds)
Round 3: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 6. (3 more rounds)
Round 4: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 8. (4 more rounds)


Shoot, if you’re going to be cheesy, why not go all the way? Buy your witch a ring of sustenance and have her cackle 24 hours a day in between adventures. Build up a Fortune Hex buffer of weeks, months, even years! Have her on a platform in the center of a 30’ sphere with companions and cohorts squeezed into every 5’ cube!

...actually, this might make an entertaining villain. An undead witch sealed in a tomb, a mass grave of undead packed tight as sardines. The local villagers live in terror of the ceaseless cackling from beneath the earth. Then, one horrible night, the tomb is opened and the undead pour out, bolstered by centuries of Fortune Hex...


Who cares. So you spend 1 round to get 2 rounds. In the case above were you are extending the fortune out to 1000 rounds, you are spending 1 hour and 40 minutes cackling just to get 1 hour and 40 minutes of fortune after that. Seems kind of a complete waste of time. There are much better things to do with 1000 rounds of action than sitting around and cackling.


Lab_Rat wrote:
Who cares. So you spend 1 round to get 2 rounds. In the case above were you are extending the fortune out to 1000 rounds, you are spending 1 hour and 40 minutes cackling just to get 1 hour and 40 minutes of fortune after that. Seems kind of a complete waste of time. There are much better things to do with 1000 rounds of action than sitting around and cackling.

Like what?

It's rare you're going to spend 8 hours actively "adventuring". Never 8 hours in combat. If you're exploring dangerous wilderness or a large very spread out underground area, this won't work so well. But if, as is often the case, you're off to explore a relatively small complex, spending some time banking Fortune rounds before hand isn't a waste of time. If you're dealing with 5-6 encounters without long distances in between, it's not going to take that much game time. Even a dozen or more encounters in a single lair will exhaust your resources long before you've used up 8 hours of game time.
It's the travel time that kills this.


Or maybe it's the fact that some people tend to forget that even though this is a game that some real life consideration should be used.

In a game where i can Cackle for hours at a time is alright, then i suppose that these would be alright as well.

- Being dead doesn't stop me from taking actions.

- My Wizard doesn't sleep anymore ever. The only possible penalty doesn't effect my magic so whatever. Sleep is for martial players.

- Food/Water those are for the weak. I don't see a mechanic that tells me otherwise.

- Bathing and being clean. Just for "role-playing" i don't need to do that.

- Etc.

Sometimes you need to use a little common sense. Using Cackle and Fortune to give a few rounds extra isn't a problem. Abusing the system to spend hours and days cackling because "there isn't a mechanical penalty" is the problem.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
thejeff wrote:

Round 1: Fortune lasts until round 2. (1 more round)

Round 2: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 4. (2 more rounds)
Round 3: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 6. (3 more rounds)
Round 4: Cackle Twice; Fortune lasts until Round 8. (4 more rounds

For completeness, the witch would also need to cackle once in round 1, so that the hex is still active during her turn in round 2 and can then be extended further by more cackling.


Since it's presumably unforeseen, GMs have a duty to examine this for houseruleability. Here's a couple that occur to me:

"Cackle can only be done once a round" < that would annoy me as a player, when I come up with a cool use, and it gets nerfed, a part of me stops looking for cool. I should ALWAYS be looking for cool. I should always be finding it, and that should always be rewarded. Okay, rewardING, maybe not rewardED. So I recommend against my proposed strawman houserule.

"Rule of Five." < inherited this lovely concept from TFT. It's roughly equivalent to saying, 'magic can only count to five'. So that's how far you can stack. Use the witch's INT or CHA or whatever as a limiter, instead, if that feels better to you. This feels a whole lot less like the (strawman, yes) GM saying "Cleverness will be ignored or punished."


Brain in a Jar wrote:

Or maybe it's the fact that some people tend to forget that even though this is a game that some real life consideration should be used.

In a game where i can Cackle for hours at a time is alright, then i suppose that these would be alright as well.

- Being dead doesn't stop me from taking actions.

- My Wizard doesn't sleep anymore ever. The only possible penalty doesn't effect my magic so whatever. Sleep is for martial players.

- Food/Water those are for the weak. I don't see a mechanic that tells me otherwise.

- Bathing and being clean. Just for "role-playing" i don't need to do that.

- Etc.

Sometimes you need to use a little common sense. Using Cackle and Fortune to give a few rounds extra isn't a problem. Abusing the system to spend hours and days cackling because "there isn't a mechanical penalty" is the problem.

I actually agree. I think it doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd let you do it for a minute or so before kicking down the door if the situation was right, but not to these extremes.

I'm just pointing out why it's potentially a problem.

Cheliax

Anything like this that causes you to grin smugly at your GM usually results in you being killed by a falling boulder later on.

It all evens out.

Unless your GM uses spiders instead. That's just mean.


cannon fodder wrote:
Thornborn wrote:
...the RAWful/RAIotic alignment axis.

That is fantastic and I hope you don't mind me borrowing it.

No, go ahead, it's mine to give away. Someplace there's a rant where I vent on the whole RAWful MEvil - RAIotic Dude spectrum.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Thornborn wrote:

Since it's presumably unforeseen, GMs have a duty to examine this for houseruleability. Here's a couple that occur to me:

"Cackle can only be done once a round" < that would annoy me as a player, when I come up with a cool use, and it gets nerfed, a part of me stops looking for cool. I should ALWAYS be looking for cool. I should always be finding it, and that should always be rewarded. Okay, rewardING, maybe not rewardED. So I recommend against my proposed strawman houserule.

"Rule of Five." < inherited this lovely concept from TFT. It's roughly equivalent to saying, 'magic can only count to five'. So that's how far you can stack. Use the witch's INT or CHA or whatever as a limiter, instead, if that feels better to you. This feels a whole lot less like the (strawman, yes) GM saying "Cleverness will be ignored or punished."

I'd probably say something like, "Sure you can cackle twice a round. Don't try to abuse it." If forced, "You get hoarse after cackling straight for a minute."

I might also emphasize that cackling is loud and will be heard farther than even a non-sneaking party. This limits some other, less ugly but still annoying abuses. Like keeping fortune going between encounters by cackling.


thejeff wrote:


I'd probably say something like, "Sure you can cackle twice a round. Don't try to abuse it." If forced, "You get hoarse after cackling straight for a minute."

I think that's a lovely way to handle it.

People play the way that makes them happy, but stuff like this (the cackling for 3 hours) tends to make me a bit sad. The guy who carries a bag of 100 rats around just to let them lose in combat so he can Greater Cleave until the cows come home just isn't the guy I want in my party.

I know it's silly to cry "unrealistic" in a game where my talking fox can direct me where to aim my 10' long prehensile hair to sap a two headed ogre of its intellect, but I think it's better to follow some sort of internal logic with a system, rather than exploit its RAW just because one can. There's clever interpretation and application and then there's just playing silly buggers with the rules, IMO.

But then a lot of folks would probably be annoyed by my relentless need to ask every Innkeep we encounter if the town we're in has a bathhouse, too. :P


I think it's healthy to say on the outset that as a GM you consider the Thousand Cackle to be cheesy and that it's not allowed. Then you can negotiate about how much cackle-stacking is fair; Thornborn's idea seems fair to me.

<passive-aggressive>Alternatively, you threaten the witch that if he's going to do the thousand-cackle, that you insist that you actually track the rounds so spent one by one; he's going to have to say "and I spend round 569 cackling twice.. that's 1138 rounds of fortune left...". Meanwhile, give the other players stuff to hit the witch with. Oh, and insist on closing up the session on time, and between sessions lose any notes about how many rounds remaining; witch needs to start over </passive-aggressive>

"Owlbears love the smell of cheese.." that's a good line.

Contributor

Brain in a Jar wrote:
- Bathing and being clean. Just for "role-playing" i don't need to do that.

Unfortunately, many GenCon attendees seem to agree with this.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
I might also emphasize that cackling is loud and will be heard farther than even a non-sneaking party. This limits some other, less ugly but still annoying abuses. Like keeping fortune going between encounters by cackling.

Technically, Cackle is a supernatural ability and therefore wouldn't require a verbal component like a spell or a spell-like ability. You could Cackle in an area of silence, for example. Possibly the witch glares or makes rude gestures to achieve the effect.

As a GM I'd just say the Witch becomes fatigued/exhausted after a while and the magic dissipates. This is analogous to a sprinter running at full speed, eventually they are too tired to continue. You could pick something like your CON and/or INT bonus and say you could have that many extra rounds up with Cackle before getting tired. Also, Fortune and continuous Cackling would need to be limited to one encounter. It is too good to allow all the time.


You could point to the 'move action equivalent', and draw that parallel, as demontroll suggests. I don't know if that 'rawfully' results in a comfortable degree of restraint in this (ab)use of Cackle.

You could not, at my table, claim that anything called 'Cackle' can be silent. I have gone as far as allowing the witch to tunelessly Sing, in place of hideously Cackle, in keeping with her general (sweet*hot)-ness. But that's table rules.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thank you all, i feared there might be some abusing, anyway now i can make a more informed decision for my game.


I would let the character double round cackle as long as they could keep cackling themselves. You role play it you do it. No short hand of "I want to do it for 1000 rounds" from me.


Nothing RAW says that Cackle generates any sound at all.


Axolotl wrote:
Nothing RAW says that Cackle generates any sound at all.

Nothing other than the word itself.

Cackle: to laugh especially in a harsh or sharp manner

Which is not just the name of the effect, but in the description:

Quote:
A witch can cackle madly as a move action.

Try laughing madly without making any sound at all.

I would agree that it's not a sonic effect and thus the effect doesn't rely on the affected hearing the cackle. The witch could be under a Silence spell and it would still work. But she's still going to be laughing madly under that silence.


My witch has double cackled many times. It can be very tactically useful in certain situations. He's never "abused" it that I know of. But it can be useful.


For anyone who cares, if my maths is right and with a ring of sustenance:

14,400 rounds per day.
600, rounds per hour.

Assuming two hours for sleep:

13,200 cackle(able?) rounds per day
26,400 rounds extended in a day
14,400 rounds used in a day

Therefore you create
12,000 extra rounds per day or about 20 hours

and it would require 8.4 days to give a weeks worth of extra fortune.


thejeff wrote:
Axolotl wrote:
Nothing RAW says that Cackle generates any sound at all.

Nothing other than the word itself.

Cackle: to laugh especially in a harsh or sharp manner

Which is not just the name of the effect, but in the description:

Quote:
A witch can cackle madly as a move action.

Try laughing madly without making any sound at all.

I would agree that it's not a sonic effect and thus the effect doesn't rely on the affected hearing the cackle. The witch could be under a Silence spell and it would still work. But she's still going to be laughing madly under that silence.

Don't make me summon Ashiel to the thread. She will also slow your monk and summon efreeti.

Qadira

If I could house rule it, I'd make it so Cackle can only be used in combat.

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