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Crown of the Kobold King: Why does it have such powerful treasure!?


Pathfinder Modules


Pathfinder Cards Subscriber

It can't be just me....

Spoiler:
This adventure gives the players a Heartripper Dagger and the Crown of the Kobold King

Heartripper Dagger

Crown of the Kobold King

Why does this adventure grant these items?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, I think they are awesome.
The half-elf sorcerer in my group never used the crown, because he would look pretty weird with it on its head! He kept it, but never really used it.

The dagger is only +1, as long as your pcs don't do an evil ritual, not speaking of eating a fresh ripped out heart. And even than its powers are only for an hour.


Pathfinder Cards Subscriber

Okay, the characters do have to do an evil-ish ritual. But the ritual grants them way higher levels spells like restoration or divination!

The crown grants +1 to sorcerer caster level! I guess my players don't particularly worry about how things look sometimes or rituals, especially when the items powers are ridiculously good.

Dark Archive

Dryder wrote:

Well, I think they are awesome.

The half-elf sorcerer in my group never used the crown, because he would look pretty weird with it on its head! He kept it, but never really used it.

The dagger is only +1, as long as your pcs don't do an evil ritual, not speaking of eating a fresh ripped out heart. And even than its powers are only for an hour.

For +1 caster level, I don't care how weird the crown looks! It wouldn't be so much use to our sorcerer (who uses Wisdom as casting stat) except the GM has modified it to give +2 Wis. He has also allowed us to pay to improve he Wisdom bonus. Of course, he may be influenced by the fact it is the novice player who is playing the sorcerer - he might not have been so accommodating if it had been one of the power-gaming veterans.

He has also changed the dagger so it is not Evil (as that fits in better with the rest of his campaign, apparently). The dagger is a big help as we have a 3 character party and no cleric.

Our party consists of a goblin, a half orc and a half elf. The goblin, in particular, will eat absolutely anything so hearts are not an issue. The half orc also isn't too bothered about eating hearts. I imagine the half elf has a pretty sick look on her face when she does it ...

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

You're ignoring the best item: Manfeller, a +1 human-bane battleaxe.

Dark Archive

One of my PCs decided to use the ritual tied to Heartripper. I then punished him by making it intellegent & it took control of him after about 4 lvls forcing him to need to slay a living int being once a week of lose points of CON. Kinda like if you catch your kid smoking, you make them smoke the whole pack

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
Kinda like if you catch your kid smoking, you make them smoke the whole pack

WTF.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Orthos wrote:
Quote:
Kinda like if you catch your kid smoking, you make them smoke the whole pack
WTF.

If you've never smoked before, or rarely, and you chain-smoke a whole pack you'll vomit like you've eaten rotten oysters.

I suppose the message is meant to be that this stuff is poison, plus aversion therapy because the last time you smoked one you were in chest-heaving-vomit-hell.

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's more a reaction "WHY THE HELL would you do that to a KID", because I can't imagine that NOT having severe health repercussions.

The Exchange Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

If the characters are 2nd level by the time they finish the adventure, a sorcerer PC gaining the crown will get a +2 to Cha. Yes, that's significant, but not overpowering. He'll also gain a +1 caster level. So...one extra magic missile and an extra minute on the duration of his sleep or shield spell. Big deal. +1 caster level really isn't that big of a boost, even for low-level characters.

As for the dagger, taking a coup de grace isn't that easy. Also, the actions implied for its use are rather evil. A DM can institute a change in alignment for use of the item over time.

Really, not that big a deal. It's not like they're handing out a sphere of annihilation and a staff of the magi.


Pathfinder Cards Subscriber
Geraint Elberion wrote:
You're ignoring the best item: Manfeller, a +1 human-bane battleaxe

You're right! I forgot about that item, that is also really powerful! And the cursed Grasp of Drosker was really good too!

Shadowborn wrote:

If the characters are 2nd level by the time they finish the adventure, a sorcerer PC gaining the crown will get a +2 to Cha. Yes, that's significant, but not overpowering. He'll also gain a +1 caster level. So...one extra magic missile and an extra minute on the duration of his sleep or shield spell. Big deal. +1 caster level really isn't that big of a boost, even for low-level characters.

As for the dagger, taking a coup de grace isn't that easy. Also, the actions implied for its use are rather evil. A DM can institute a change in alignment for use of the item over time.

Caster level is important, extra 1d6 damage for fireball eventually. Its also worth a lot of gp! You're forgetting the immunity to frightful presence of dragons! That is soooo good as well!

But there isn't a limit on how many uses it can have per day! The characters could eat hearts for restoration, Remove disease, and Cure Serious Wounds! (a 4th and 3rd levels spells! What!) Thats also ignoring the Divination or Flaming Burst abilities it has as well!

They can Coup de grace when they knock someone unconscious...doesn't say they have to be in positive HP.

But its 2nd level...how could someone give treasure like that such low level!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If they use the items irresponsibly then someone's bound to notice and come after them. More adventure and plot hooks!

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Orthos wrote:
It's more a reaction "WHY THE HELL would you do that to a KID", because I can't imagine that NOT having severe health repercussions.

In terms of health effects, I don't think intensity matters.

If someone has 10 smokes and is put off for life, that's much better than having 10 a day (moving up to 20 a day) for the next 40 years.

Not that I would advocate the tactic, just recognising the thoughts.

Dark Archive

Shadowborn wrote:
As for the dagger, taking a coup de grace isn't that easy. Also, the actions implied for its use are rather evil. A DM can institute a change in alignment for use of the item over time.

As others have mentioned, the easiest way is to reduce enemies to dying and then use the dagger.

The alignment thing is a DM call (although I haven't read the item description, since I'm a player not the DM) and it would be a typical D&D alignment call to rule that slaughtering kobolds in their homes is perfectly fine, but eating their hearts afterwards to cure yourself from the effects of their poisoned weapons makes you a monster.

If a DM thinks playing a "fall to the Dark Side" campaign would be interesting then the dagger makes a great plot device. Otherwise, my recommendation is to either treat it like any other magic item, or take it out of the adventure.


+1 CL is pretty good but not game ending. An extra die on the fireball is only a bonus 3.5 damage on average, which isn't going to be an issue. Unless the player starts tossing maximized fireballs, but even then...

They are cool and unique items. They don't really break the game all that much and make the players feel powerful.

Remember that as the GM, you control the difficulty of the game. Player power is an illusion; giving your party +4 armor and weapons will make them feel awesome! However you can turn around and increase the CR of every fight by 2-3 and the math settles back down to even (even a bit in favor of the monsters).


GeraintElberion wrote:
You're ignoring the best item: Manfeller, a +1 human-bane battleaxe.

"Me wants!"

favored enemy #1 humans


prepping to run this module, know the half-orc barbarian is going to love this axe! so I want to make sure I get the stats right, when she loots it, but as a noob gm im having trouble.

I'm not 100% I'm figuring the 2d6/x3 part right. But I am very confused on the base stats of the item because it lists damage as...

Melee +1 human bane battleaxe +9 (1d8+14/x3)(against humans: +11, 1d8+16 plus 2d6/x3)

but then has this text as well...
"The kobold king casts bull's strength, mage armor and enlarge person on himself" and " He wields his human bane battleaxe two handed in melee and uses Power Attack (already figured in)"

and then latter reads...
Without enlarge person, make the following adjustments:
+1 human bane battleaxe +9 (1d8+13/x3)(against humans: +11, 1d8+15 plus 2d6/x3)

So I see, power attack is a +1 mod, but then it reads...
Without bull's strength, enlarge person, and mage armor, make the following adjustments:
+1 human bane battleaxe +7 (1d8+10/x3)(against humans: +9, 1d8+12 plus 2d6/x3)

and I think, ok is that ^^ the base stats on this weapon, or do I need to remove +str mod or any other stats I am missing to get the weapon base?

So close, yet still so confused lol
Thanks in advance, for help sorting this out.

Has been a fun adventure, DO looking forward to running the others in this set...on a side note: anyone know a good module/campaign to move to from falcons hollow, would like to stay in same section of the world if possible? maybe better in another thread. :) rambling thanks again!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Probably because it was initially intended as a stand-alone one-shot adventure, so why not give out some cool items at the end.

Off-topic to Orthos

Spoiler:

Orthos wrote:
It's more a reaction "WHY THE HELL would you do that to a KID", because I can't imagine that NOT having severe health repercussions.

That's old school parenting. I knew a couple kids growing up that got caught smoking and their parents did that. As far as I know, the kids didn't smoke after that.

-Skeld


In our game i made manfelle4 low end intelligent. Mosly just conveyed its desire to kill humans. But had it do things like be ayng next t9 the human sorcere in the morning when he woke up. Told him he felt like iit was nching closer. Its ego was low enough the person using it had to roll a 1 but it tried to take him over every time there were incap humans about.


Sort of Beavis in axe form? "You gonna kill humans, huhh huhh huh huhh..."

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Buy a small farm animal, like a pygmy goat or rabbit. Normal people butcher farm animals and eat their hearts. It's not evil.

Star Voter 2013

oldcatnhat wrote:

prepping to run this module, know the half-orc barbarian is going to love this axe! so I want to make sure I get the stats right, when she loots it, but as a noob gm im having trouble.

I'm not 100% I'm figuring the 2d6/x3 part right. But I am very confused on the base stats of the item because it lists damage as...

(snip)

I don't have the module to hand. Without the stats for the kobold king himself, I can't say exactly. But:

A Medium +1 human-bane battleaxe is +1 to hit and will do 1d8+1 to most opponents, or 3d8+3 on a crit. Against a human it's +3 to hit and will do 1d8+2d6+3, or 3d8+2d6+9 on a crit. Because crits don't multiply extra dice. And against a 2nd level PC, 3d8+2d6+9 is plenty :)

When the kobold king enlarges himself, he becomes bigger (so loses the +1 to hit for being small) but also +2 stronger (so +1 to hit). So that's a wash. But he's stronger so does +1 damage, or possibly +2 as it's in two hands, depending on odd and even numbers.

Power attack will be -1 to hit and +3 (2H) damage, or -2 and +6 if he has +4 BAB.

Bull's Strength is +4 Str so +2 to hit and +3 (2H) damage.

The curious thing that doesn't quite add up in your numbers above is that the axe itself might be enlarged with the kobold. If it does, it now does more damage (2d6 base rather than 1d8) but it's probably too big for the kobold so it's -2 to hit. Conversely, if neither kobold nor axe are enlarged it should be -2 to hit. Unless of course he has some special ability to wield a big axe.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A Medium +1 human-bane battleaxe is +1 to hit and will do 1d8+1 to most opponents, or 3d8+3 on a crit. Against a human it's +3 to hit and will do 1d8+2d6+3, or 3d8+2d6+9 on a crit.

Great! thanks, will use those stats for the looted sword, and book stats when its with kobold. thanks much!


People really need to re examine their concept of moraity if they cant see why heart ripper is evil.


I ate a Liver last night, am I evil?


No but I am assuming the liver didn't come from someone capable of holding a conversation while alive. If it came raw from an animal while it was still alive you may want to discuss. Things witu your therapist.


What is the difference between ripping out a heart and hacking them up with a sword? They both are dead. Using a vorpal blade to cut off a head is acceptable but ripping out a heart is evil? Crazy. What about burning someone alive with burning hands or fireball? That is worse than cutting out their heart. Think what the spell blade barrier does. It is like putting someone in a blender but it is not evil.


Sigh i really wanted to avoid a thread derail but im going to assume your question is serious. How and why you do anything and to whom you are doing it.

First in PF good and evil are things that can be defined. Kobolds are not clever little miscreants, they are armed organzed thugs that would do aweful things to their surroundings if they can get away with it. They kidnapped children to cut out and eat their heart with.... heart ripper.

In rl if the police went in, there would be a big attempt to end things peacefully. And the idea of the pcs doing a swat action out side calling for negotiators is kind of funny but..

In most cases if all you do is kill the kobolds ( in this instance) its a lawful action done to save the children.

Cutting out the heart of a sentient creature while it is still alive then eating the heart you seriously cant see why that is evil? Id suggest trying it with your neighbor and see how the police feel but then id be an accomplice.

Wether its okay to eat an animals liver is a wholly seperate moral issue.

Dark Archive

Mojorat wrote:
Cutting out the heart of a sentient creature while it is still alive then eating the heart you seriously cant see why that is evil? Id suggest trying it with your neighbor and see how the police feel but then id be an accomplice.

Who is my neighbour in this instance?

Presumably not the kobold bleeding to death on the floor, after my character has broken into his home and put three feet of steel through his guts? The kobold whose meagre possessions my character is in the process of looting?

Seriously, this is the point at which you care about what happens to the kobold? I'm sure he'd have got more use out of your sympathy if he'd received it somewhat earlier in the proceedings.

D&D morality is not the same as any of the varied and mutually contradictory real world moralities. It is the morality of a game. In the game, if eating kobold hearts makes you more likely to survive long enough to rescue the children, then eating kobold hearts is not evil. It's just an extension of looting the bodies.


And a lot more fun than eating liver :)


Actually morality in pf is based on the idea of good and evil being absolute concepts that ate quantifiable through magic. The books definitions of good and evil are pretty clearly based on modern cpncepts of good and evil.

But clearly in your game its okay to eat the hearts of sentient cteatures and to get ahead.

Dark Archive

Mojorat wrote:
But clearly in your game its okay to eat the hearts of sentient cteatures and to get ahead.

Yes, it is. It's not big, it's not clever, it's not compulsory and it's definitely not good. What it is, is okay.

In your games is it okay to kill sentient creatures to get ahead? Usually after breaking into their homes, and just before you take everything of value they possess? Does your GM hand out XP for doing this?

If you are okay with that, I don't know why the bit about eating hearts is such a sticking point.

If we were talking about killing creatures specifically to eat their hearts, to get a flaming burst weapon for five minutes (say), then you'd have a point.

But these are creatures you were going to kill anyway.

They have been put in the adventure to be killed by the PCs. If the PCs decide not to kill them, there is no adventure, and the bad guys win. The children get sacrificed, the evil monarch imposes a reign of terror, the runelords rise again, Golarion is struck by catastrophe, etc. etc.

Having killed them, the pragmatic thing to do is to eat their hearts and get some of your lost hit points back. The hit points they took off you, after you told them their child-kidnapping days were at an end.

Dark Archive

Mojorat wrote:
The books definitions of good and evil are pretty clearly based on modern cpncepts of good and evil.

That's a whole different argument, and would derail this thread even more than we have already.

Clearly the game's good and evil are based on real world good and evil. Just as the game's weapons are based on real world swords and the like. However, based on is just that. Based on.

There have to be concessions for the fantasy elements. Unless you know of a real world concept for some magic spells being inherently good, lawful, chaotic, evil?

As far as I am aware, there is no real world concept for mindless creatures being inherently evil, like you find in Pathfinder.

As far as I am aware, using poison is not evil per se in the real world - tranquiliser darts are poison in Pathfinder terms.

Is cannibalism always evil in the real world? Not in my opinion.


In the real world theres no example of any creature being inherently evil. But the examples where cannabalism isnt evil are soley based on desperate survival. A presumably well fed adventurer voluntarily going ito a monsters lair and mimicing thulsa doom doesnt follow under this. See its not an issue of cannabalism its the cutting their heart out while their still alive then commiting cannabalism. But at this point i wonder if im being trolled.


Id dare say its more taboo than actual evil. Buts thats just my opionion.

On topic, purchase this module and havent received it yet but it does look like I will need to change some of the treasures. In a grp of half veterans and half noobies, I can see some of the items becoming as a way for one person to outshine the group with our current item system at that level. Higher lvl I woukd be okay with but a lvl 3 module....nah lol.


Getting back on topic we didn't run into a.y issues with any of the treasure when I ran it.


I could easily see a valiant knight slaying a dragon, then eating its heart. (native Americans used to do practices such as this to get the "spirit mojo of the buffalo, or wolf etc" in our RL history.

Back on topic, these items, + the items from TC haunted forest,(I tweeked those items a bit) seem to be the perfect starter set for dragon hunters...

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