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Can a 2nd level Warden Ranger with a hunting lodge vanity take 20 on Survival Day Job rolls?


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

Lantern Lodge ***

Here's an interesting combination.
The Warden archetype ability from Ultimate Combat:

From UC pg. 68:
Live in Comfort (Ex):
At 2nd level, a warden is truly at home within his favored terrains. He knows all the signs of the wilderness. He rarely gets lost. He can easily live off the land in comfort, and can provide for companions. The warden can take 10 on any Survival check involving any of his favored terrains, even when in immediate danger and distracted. If the warden is not in immediate danger and distracted, he can take 20 even if the check has a penalty for failure. This ability replaces all combat style feats.

The hunting lodge vanity from PFS Field Guide:
From PFSFG pg. 61:
Hunting Lodge(2 PP):
You are a master hunter and have been recognized as such by being invited to join an elite hunting lodge. As a member, you may take part in special hunts for rare and exotic prey each year, both on restricted hunting grounds and in the wild. You can use Survival to make Day Job rolls.

The way I see it, is that if you become a member of a hunting lodge in a favored terrain of yours, you could use Survival with all the bonuses favored terrain grants you, including the live in comfort ability, if you possessed it. I just wanted to make sure this was a legit combination, considering all the neat things you give up taking that archetype(favored enemy, combat styles).

**

I think not. The taking 20 refers to a Survival check. The day job roll is not a Survival check, it just lets you use your Survival skill to make a Day Job roll. Technically Day Job is not even a skill check, it is its own roll. IIRC This is part of the reasoning why animal companions can not help on Day Job checks. I could be wrong if things have changed since Josh FWIW. Hopefully someone smarter can chime in :)

*

Well you can already take 10 on a day job check and the Guide specifically says that you can not take 20 on a day job check (pg 22 - last sentance of second paragraph in Day job section). So the answer would be no.

Lantern Lodge ***

Lab_Rat wrote:
Well you can already take 10 on a day job check and the Guide specifically says that you can not take 20 on a day job check (pg 22 - last sentance of second paragraph in Day job section). So the answer would be no.

This may be true, but Live in Comfort gives exceptions to the normal take 10/take 20 rules. I'm just wondering if these exceptions could be applied to the Day Job roll, or not.

***

No... I mean, who's to say he's not "in danger or distracted" at some point during the day job?

And as some have mentioned, it's not a "roll" in the conventional sense (a check for a specific instance), but just a way of quantifying aggregate "doing jobs" activity (like leading various groups on hunts or whatever).

There IS actually one scenario which specifically allows a "take 20" on a day job roll, IF you've eschewed the roll in the prior scenario (they are two parts of a series) and IF you play the scenarios back-to-back. The presence of such a special instance of "take 20" obviates it's not being permitted otherwise.

Consider this: my Ranger (I have the same day job) has Survival +16. I *could* lead groups of wealthy thrillseekers through slums (my favored terrain - urban - would give me +4 here) to hunt human beings (who will miss a few slum dwellers? besides, humans are my favored enemy (+6)) for a mighty +26 on my day job rolls. BUT, my day job roll isn't *really* a survival skill; PFS simply allows me to *use* my survival skill as an abstract representation of running my hunting business out of the Lodge, so it really isn't fitting for me to add modifiers (favored terrain, favored enemy) or to use the mechanic for "doing it twenty times until I succeed" (taking 20).

I actually don't think one should be able to "take 10" with day jobs, but as a practical player I'll always grab a thrown bone :)

*

It's one thing to say that there are exceptions within the core rules. The book is full of specific vs general. However, I have NEVER seen an example of someone saying that a character ability or rule overruled the actual guide for pathfinder society play. In my opinion the guide overrules ALL.

Lantern Lodge ***

The FAQ states that the street performer's gladhandling ability doubles the amount of money made on a Day Job check made with Perform skills, so the precedent exists that a character's abilities can, in fact, override the PFS guide's rules. I'm just curious whether or not this could be another case where a character's class ability overrules what is in the guide.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Multiple people above have given you the answer. Day jobs checks are not a skill check. You use your ranks and skill bonuses to make a day job check. It's a fine distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

Quote:
The warden can take 10 on any Survival check involving any of his favored terrains, even when in immediate danger and distracted.

Even here, the warden's ability states you can use the Live in Confort ability on survival checks. As stated, day job rolls are not survival checks, even with a hunting lodge.

Second, the game doesn't allow any "situational" modifiers to your day job roll. You can only use Live in Comfort when involved in your favorite terrain. When making a Day Job roll, you don't take into account any modifiers based on location, etc... For example there is a Taldor trait that gives +1 to a Perform skill when dealing with the Oppara music scene. This would not apply to a day job roll.

There are other ways to add to a day job roll. In fact, there is a boon in a specific scenario that explicitly adds to your day job and day job only. Gladhandling affects the result of how much money you get, not what you roll. Again, subtle difference, but a difference.

*

I would suggest the following to the people who are adamantly stating that no you do not get to do this (possibly because they thing it's horrible cheese-mongering, maybe just because they think Josh just isn't listening) you might recall that this is the proper forum to hope for an answer from our PFS GMs, Michael Brock and Mark Moreland as to whether they think that such a combination would work.

I might answer the question with: "Based on pg 22 - last sentence of second paragraph in Day job section* you cannot take 20 on day job rolls, but maybe Mike or Mark will step in here and say this combination is okay. In the meantime, YMMV/expect table variation, and you might do better to just not do so until you've gotten approval."

*Thank you Lab_rat for the citation!

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Netherlands—Leiden

Even with the Live in Comfort extraordinary ability taking 20 would still take 20 times as much time and time for your dayjob is the limiting factor. So no you can't.

Liberty's Edge ***

Auke Teeninga wrote:
Even with the Live in Comfort extraordinary ability taking 20 would still take 20 times as much time and time for your dayjob is the limiting factor. So no you can't.

Ummm. This one doesn't make sense.

The time between scenarios/modules is indefinite, so there is no time factor applying to day job rolls.

Indefinite times 20 equals indefinite, yes?

Limiting factors between scenarios/modules:
Only one day job roll, if a day job roll is allowed at all (no day job rolls after modules, or if you were the GM).
Attempt to train your animal/animal companion in a number of tricks equal to your ranks in Handle Animals.
Use Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items up to your cash limit, if the PC is an Alchemist.
Copy any number of spells into your spellbook/familiar, up to your monetary limits for purchasing scrolls and paying scribing costs.
Buy as much or as little item upgrades/magical items as your funds and Fame allow.

Upgrading a MW weapon to +1 takes 2 game days.
Similarly, upgrading a weapon from +1 to +2 takes 6 game days.

Is this time tracked? No.

*

Josh Spies wrote:
The FAQ states that the street performer's gladhandling ability doubles the amount of money made on a Day Job check made with Perform skills, so the precedent exists that a character's abilities can, in fact, override the PFS guide's rules. I'm just curious whether or not this could be another case where a character's class ability overrules what is in the guide.

I know all about Gladhandling. But lets get one thing straight. Nothing about Gladhandling overrules a statement in the Guide Gladhandling allows you to double what you earn while using a Perform skill check. I was actually going to mention the Gladhandling FAQ as a precedent for the use of abilities that modify a skill used for a day job roll. Nothing in the Guide says that you can NOT modify the value you get from a day job roll with class abilities (i.e. Gladhandling doubling). However, there is specific text that says you can not take 20 on a day job roll. That text overrides your ability.

You may get Mike on here to give his opinion and / or FAQ your specific question. Until then, I don't think the rules support Live in Comfort allowing you to bypass the take 20 rule for day jobs.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Netherlands—Leiden

kinevon wrote:

Ummm. This one doesn't make sense.

Is this time tracked? No.

Ok, so what's stopping me from working on my dayjob a million times in between scenario's? So yes, there's a limit: You are only allowed a single roll, taking 20 is like rolling 20 times, so not a single roll.

Grand Lodge ****

Auke Teeninga wrote:
kinevon wrote:

Ummm. This one doesn't make sense.

Is this time tracked? No.
Ok, so what's stopping me from working on my dayjob a million times in between scenario's?

Time.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Josh Spies wrote:
The FAQ states that the street performer's gladhandling ability doubles the amount of money made on a Day Job check made with Perform skills, so the precedent exists that a character's abilities can, in fact, override the PFS guide's rules. I'm just curious whether or not this could be another case where a character's class ability overrules what is in the guide.

This is not one of those cases. Several people answered your question here already but I just wanted to confirm. The Guide specifically says that you can not take 20 on a day job check (pg 22 - last sentance of second paragraph in Day job section). So the answer would be no.

*

Thx Mike for being on the ball through all these rules clarifications that have come up recently. We all appreciate you and the job you do!

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Lab_Rat wrote:
Thx Mike for being on the ball through all these rules clarifications that have come up recently. We all appreciate you and the job you do!

+1

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Has anyone bothered to mention that Taking 20 literally means making 20 checks? Taking 20 for your Day Job isn't just disallowed, it's impossible.

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Fresno aka Sarta

Jiggy wrote:
Has anyone bothered to mention that Taking 20 literally means making 20 checks? Taking 20 for your Day Job isn't just disallowed, it's impossible.

Normally true, but there are some exceptions, such as the Bard's "Lore Master" ability: "... once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action."

The Warden's "Live in Comfort" ability definitely creates an exception to the ordinary rules of taking 20. So, certainly introduces confusion. It was a legit question.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Will Johnson wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Has anyone bothered to mention that Taking 20 literally means making 20 checks? Taking 20 for your Day Job isn't just disallowed, it's impossible.
Normally true, but there are some exceptions, such as the Bard's "Lore Master" ability: "... once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action."

And a knowledge check doesn't take any time, so he can instantaneously make 20 checks.

Quote:
The Warden's "Live in Comfort" ability definitely creates an exception to the ordinary rules of taking 20. So, certainly introduces confusion. It was a legit question.

The only thing it changes is that it removes the prohibition against things with a penalty for failure. It doesn't say you can do it in a certain amount of time, or as a single check, or anything else.

The confusion seems to be less about what Live in Comfort does and more about how Take 20 works in the first place. Sort of like how 99% of questions about Spellstrike are less about what Spellstrike changes and more about people not knowing all the touch spell rules.

But in any case, Mike's got it handled, 'cuz he's a boss. :D

Lantern Lodge ***

Michael Brock wrote:
Josh Spies wrote:
The FAQ states that the street performer's gladhandling ability doubles the amount of money made on a Day Job check made with Perform skills, so the precedent exists that a character's abilities can, in fact, override the PFS guide's rules. I'm just curious whether or not this could be another case where a character's class ability overrules what is in the guide.
This is not one of those cases. Several people answered your question here already but I just wanted to confirm. The Guide specifically says that you can not take 20 on a day job check (pg 22 - last sentance of second paragraph in Day job section). So the answer would be no.

Thanks for the clarification, Mike. As Lab Rat said, we definitely appreciate you taking time to clear things up amongst the confused people here (mainly me).

Odea wrote:
I would suggest the following to the people who are adamantly stating that no you do not get to do this (possibly because they thing it's horrible cheese-mongering, maybe just because they think Josh just isn't listening) you might recall that this is the proper forum to hope for an answer from our PFS GMs, Michael Brock and Mark Moreland as to whether they think that such a combination would work.

Yes, I was completely aware that this is terribly cheesy, which is why when I saw it, I had to make certain, without a shadow of a doubt, that it does not work. Telling your GM to write 100gp on the Day Job portion of the chronicle sheet starting at 2nd level is a really easy way to butcher the WBL early on(and gets even more egregious if you can get your hands on a Prosperity boon).

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