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Living Steel and Bills


Rules Questions


So when a shield is made out of living steel it gets to bonus effect that if the attacker rolls a 1 their weapon must make a Fort save DC 20 or their weapon is damaged (if damaged then it is broken) and Bills when you are fighting defensively or when using full defense get a +1 shield bonus to ac.

Now logically a Bill made out of Living Steel when you are fighting defensively or when using full defense are used as a shield and therefore would get the shield effect of the Living Steel material.

I'd appreciate some input on this.


A bill is not a shield. It is a weapon that provides a shield bonus. Living steel weapons do not get the bonus that living steel shields get.


Mauril wrote:
A bill is not a shield. It is a weapon that provides a shield bonus. Living steel weapons do not get the bonus that living steel shields get.

However the bill provides a shield bonus and since living steel has a physical property of being REALLY hard it would make sense that it should have the same effect if a weapon is hitting it just like you would expect if a weapon hits a sword while you are doing two-weapon defense, it is still the same material and it doesn't magically stop being really hard.


Two Weapon Defense and Shield of Swings also provide a shield bonus. This does not make you suddenly have a shield.

Sczarni

JasperPD, I think that would be a really cool houserule, and I'd totally play it that way myself. but I believe Mauril is correct concerning RAW.


Mauril wrote:
Two Weapon Defense and Shield of Swings also provide a shield bonus. This does not make you suddenly have a shield.

I understand, but my argument is that it is a PHYSICAL property of the material, there isn't some magic pixie inside Living Steel going, "Am I in a shield or armor? I'm not? Well then I guess this Living Steel won't be super hard!"

And the description of the material even has a logic behind why this should be the case.

"Some trees suck up potent minerals through their roots the same way others draw water from the ground. Though these trees blunt saws and axes used to hew them and shrug off fire, they eventually succumb to time or the elements. When properly harvested, these fallen trees produce nuggets of a metal called living steel. This glossy green metal slowly repairs itself. An item made from living steel repairs damage to itself at a rate of 2 hit points per day, or 1 hit point per day if it has the broken condition."

So by the description and the logic that it is a physical property of the material then any item that blocks an attack and the attacker rolls a 1 on their attack their weapon should gain the broken status.

Liberty's Edge

"Armor and shields made from living steel can damage metal weapons that strike them. Whenever the wielder of a metal weapon rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll against a creature wearing living steel armor or wielding a living steel shield, the item must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or gain the broken condition. If the weapon already has the broken condition, it is instead destroyed. Living steel cannot damage adamantine weapons in this way."

Is a bill armor? Nope. Is it a shield? Nope. So by the rules a bill made out of living steel does not gain the property to damage metal weapons. Maybe a bill isn't sturdy enough or doesn't have enough surface area for the effect. Rationalize it how you will, ultimately it does not work that way by the rules.


Trinite wrote:
JasperPD, I think that would be a really cool houserule, and I'd totally play it that way myself. but I believe Mauril is correct concerning RAW.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the RAW in this case makes no logic sense


Ssalarn wrote:

"Armor and shields made from living steel can damage metal weapons that strike them. Whenever the wielder of a metal weapon rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll against a creature wearing living steel armor or wielding a living steel shield, the item must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or gain the broken condition. If the weapon already has the broken condition, it is instead destroyed. Living steel cannot damage adamantine weapons in this way."

Is a bill armor? Nope. Is it a shield? Nope. So by the rules a bill made out of living steel does not gain the property to damage metal weapons. Maybe a bill isn't sturdy enough ordoesn't have enough surface area for the effect. Rationalize it how you will, ultimately it does not work that way by the rules.

However the Bill is used a shield like item in that you are blocking with it for the +1 shield ac so I still don't see why it shouldn't apply.

I guess I'm just trying to say that they should consider adding it to errata.

Liberty's Edge

JasperPD wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

"Armor and shields made from living steel can damage metal weapons that strike them. Whenever the wielder of a metal weapon rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll against a creature wearing living steel armor or wielding a living steel shield, the item must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or gain the broken condition. If the weapon already has the broken condition, it is instead destroyed. Living steel cannot damage adamantine weapons in this way."

Is a bill armor? Nope. Is it a shield? Nope. So by the rules a bill made out of living steel does not gain the property to damage metal weapons. Maybe a bill isn't sturdy enough ordoesn't have enough surface area for the effect. Rationalize it how you will, ultimately it does not work that way by the rules.

However the Bill is used a shield like item in that you are blocking with it for the +1 shield ac so I still don't see why it shouldn't apply.

I guess I'm just trying to say that they should consider adding it to errata.

It's not a shiel-like item. It in fact no way resembles a type of shield. It is designed in such a way, however, that it is particualry useful when fighting defensively, giving you a shield [b]bonus[/i] to AC. Meaning it doesn't stack with other shield bonuses. Every bonus has to have a type, and the type determines what it does and does not work with. In this instance, someone benefiting from the improved coverage of a bill could not also benefit from a shield (or vice versa). The bill doesn't transform from a weapon into a shield when you fight defensively.


Ssalarn wrote:
JasperPD wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

"Armor and shields made from living steel can damage metal weapons that strike them. Whenever the wielder of a metal weapon rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll against a creature wearing living steel armor or wielding a living steel shield, the item must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or gain the broken condition. If the weapon already has the broken condition, it is instead destroyed. Living steel cannot damage adamantine weapons in this way."

Is a bill armor? Nope. Is it a shield? Nope. So by the rules a bill made out of living steel does not gain the property to damage metal weapons. Maybe a bill isn't sturdy enough ordoesn't have enough surface area for the effect. Rationalize it how you will, ultimately it does not work that way by the rules.

However the Bill is used a shield like item in that you are blocking with it for the +1 shield ac so I still don't see why it shouldn't apply.

I guess I'm just trying to say that they should consider adding it to errata.

It's not a shiel-like item. It in fact no way resembles a type of shield. It is designed in such a way, however, that it is particualry useful when fighting defensively, giving you a shield [b]bonus[/i] to AC. Meaning it doesn't stack with other shield bonuses. Every bonus has to have a type, and the type determines what it does and does not work with. In this instance, someone benefiting from the improved coverage of a bill could not also benefit from a shield (or vice versa). The bill doesn't transform from a weapon into a shield when you fight defensively.

And the Living Steel doesn't transform from being really hard when it is armor or a shield to not being really hard when it is a weapon, so if you are blocking with something made out of Living Steel the effect should still apply.


All I'm looking for is some consistency in the rules, if a material has a special physical property it should still apply to other items made of the same material. Iron isn't going to stop being magnetic, silver isn't going to stop hurting lycanthropes, mythral won't stop being an amazing material for armor, and cold iron won't stop doing massive damage to the fey.


JasperPD wrote:
I'd appreciate some input on this.

I believe at this point you've had the input you requested.


RAW is RAW. You can find it logically inconsistent all you want, but it doesn't change the RAW. To do else is a houserule, which are you encouraged to do. Just know that you are making a houserule and thus this would need to get moved to the Homebrew forum for continued critique.

Sczarni

JasperPD, I think you should totally houserule it to make it work the way you think it should.

I believe the RAW is written the way it is just because it would be pretty complicated to list all of the various exceptions or conditions in which a weapon might confer a bonus to AC and bring the living steel's property into play. Paizo probably didn't want to spend like a whole page describing corner cases.

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