RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re: RL training vs gaming.
Gentlemen, I (personally) don't really don't care about how things work in real life in a game where a wizard can turn bat crap into a small artillary piece.
You do raise an interesting point in your style comparisons though. It does seem possible to use a weapon differently than it was intended. (assuming that the katana wasn't meant as a slicing weapon or wasn't meant as a hacking weapon, it's clear one of you is using a stile it wasn't meant for.)
This would seem to indicate that spending more feats to make a weapon serve a new purpose does make sense. For example my Curveblade Carioca bit above would require 4 feats, meaning the earliest a human warrior/aristocrat could have it is 5th level, and that's dedicating every feat to it (and baring traits or racial traits). (Fighter could have it sooner (3rd level) but they are exceptional.
If you look at it from an E6 method, you're talking about a master of arms.
(aside: Katana fanboys (katana beats everything!) irritate me as a rule. Why do I like the katana/scimitar/no-dachi? Because I like curved blades. Nothing more special than that)
Also, depending on the length, a daito could weigh as little as 5 lbs or as much as 12lbs. Fencing with a katana is a mater of fractions of an inch between a nick and bleeding out. Also when fighting with katana and shoto, the shoto turns into a paryying and slashing while the katana turns to a stabbing weapon.Yes...but the katana is a HORRIBLE stabbing weapon. It's not balanced for it. If the target is the entire body...yeah sure, you can stab at it...but need to aim for the arm pit or the space between the do and mempo? Yeah...your boned.
Also as LITTLE as 5 lb for a daito? Really? That is about as heavy as daito got before they became cerimonial pieces. That kinda makes me think you really don't practice any form of kenjitsu.
And when using a shoto and daito, you use the daito to stab while the shoto parries and slashes? Sure your not mistaking the usage of a rapier and main gauche there? The most famous usage of the daito and shoto is from musashi and he DEFINATELY said to slash with both weapons. Not many ryu teach the use of both swords...and of the few that do, I don't know of a single one that teachs you to use them like a rapier and main gauche. This seriously makes me think you are not taking kenjitsu...and if you paying for classes...your not paying for kenjitsu classes.
There are more Ryu Ha than modern iterations of Kenjuitsu. The most popular that doesn't teach suki is Kendo because it's a wasted move in the sport. However, once you get into Koryu....its a different animal all together. I do suggest you try fencing with a training shoto and bokken and see how easy it is to do slash a daito one handed.
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There are more Ryu Ha than modern iterations of Kenjuitsu. The most popular that doesn't teach suki is Kendo because it's a wasted move in the sport. However, once you get into Koryu....its a different animal all together. I do suggest you try fencing with a training shoto and bokken and see how easy it is to do slash a daito one handed.
I am not saying you should NEVER tsuki. However to do so entirely with a katana because you have a shoto in the other hand is not a known style in any known school. Yes there MAY have been a lost school who did such a thing...but the key word there is LOST...as in nobody does this anymore (and for damn good reason...it's not a good way to use a katana). In anycase, stabbing with a longsword is even easier then a katana...and stabbing with a rapier is almost effortless compared to a katana. Then you look at cutting. Cutting a tatami mat with a longsword is much easier then a rapier and cutting a may with a katana is almost effortless compared to a rapier. The katana is on the far spectum of weapons not like a rapier (a finessable none-light weapon).
edit: I know how to use a katana one handed. I can use a miao dao one handed. Hell I even use long spears and glaives one handed. So I am not saying that is even the issue...the issue is HOW your using that katana one handed.
There are more Ryu Ha than modern iterations of Kenjuitsu. The most popular that doesn't teach suki is Kendo because it's a wasted move in the sport. However, once you get into Koryu....its a different animal all together. I do suggest you try fencing with a training shoto and bokken and see how easy it is to do slash a daito one handed.I am not saying you should NEVER tsuki. However to do so entirely with a katana because you have a shoto in the other hand is not a known style in any known school. Yes there MAY have been a lost school who did such a thing...but the key word there is LOST...as in nobody does this anymore (and for damn good reason...it's not a good way to use a katana). In anycase, stabbing with a longsword is even easier then a katana...and stabbing with a rapier is almost effortless compared to a katana. Then you look at cutting. Cutting a tatami mat with a longsword is much easier then a rapier and cutting a may with a katana is almost effortless compared to a rapier. The katana is on the far spectum of weapons not like a rapier (a finessable none-light weapon).
edit: I know how to use a katana one handed. I can use a miao dao one handed. Hell I even use long spears and glaives one handed. So I am not saying that is even the issue...the issue is HOW your using that katana one handed.
I don't know how to embed, but if you watch this, you can see the japanese sword is not a weapon of brute strength.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0oSM-z5714&feature=related
And sense you essentially said tsuki is rare....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqm2m9Igii0&feature=related
I don't know how to embed
There is a button at the bottom of every post box that says "how to format your text." There is a url tag.
but if you watch this, you can see the japanese sword is not a weapon of brute strength.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0oSM-z5714&feature=related
Having watched the video, I don't really understand what it has to do with your point. Showing that a fighting style requires proper technique is like showing me that fire is hot. Having technique doesn't mean it's not about power.
The first few moments of that video even showcase the power involved. Fast swings require strength--I don't know where this idea came from that swinging a weapon fast doesn't have to do with muscle power. If you're weak, you can't swing fast.
The technique this video showcases even kind points out how there's so much power involved that you have to rest the blade along your arm/shoulder to absorb it because otherwise your blade will just get smashed into your own body.
Kenjutsu is a power game--yes, you need to apply that power with the proper technique, but it doesn't change a thing. Swinging around a Greataxe also requires proper technique or you'll hurt yourself/leave yourself open on the recovery.
But seriously, I speak from experience--the only weapon you can really excel using without being especially strong is a long polearm.
And sense you essentially said tsuki is rare....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqm2m9Igii0&feature=related
One video does not prove something isn't rare. But I do want to point out, that even if it's common in Kendo, it's not necessarily common in Kenjutsu. Kendo has become a sport and (much like Tae Kwon Do and Fencing) has lost it's "warrior's edge" in favor of point scoring. Bokken aren't especially curved--not nearly as much as a Katana is, for example--and they're balanced very differently. Oh, and the other guy isn't wearing the sort of armor that could catch your blade and make it harder (even if only for a short moment) to pull it back to a defensible position. Stabbing with a Katana is risky.
I don't know how to embed, but if you watch this, you can see the japanese sword is not a weapon of brute strength.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0oSM-z5714&feature=related
And sense you essentially said tsuki is rare....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqm2m9Igii0&feature=related
Just below the 'Preview' 'Cancel' 'Submit Post' buttons it says, "How to format your text 'Show'"
If you click on that, it tells you how to do everything from Bolding to Shrinking in your post.
The code for Embeding is [ url=Insert URL ] Insert name of Link [ /url ] Without the spaces.
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I don't know how to embed, but if you watch this, you can see the japanese sword is not a weapon of brute strength.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0oSM-z5714&feature=related
Dude that first strike is SO brute force that it isn't even funny. That cut in WMA is known as the wrath strike...and that cut is ALL about power. The rest of the strikes they do isn't all that much finesse either...it's a lot of power strikes...almost as if katana are used as powerful cleaving weapons of bloody death (which they are).
If you see a WMA video here Link you will see a much more finesse style of fighting. Using steel swords that weight closer to what the real weapons would have instead of wooden ones no less. If you think a katana should be a finesse weapon, then it applies even more so to longswords, bastard swords and greatswords.
And sense you essentially said tsuki is rare....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqm2m9Igii0&feature=related
One match of kendo...really?!? Do I even have to explain to you what is wrong with this video to you?
Trying to precisely pigeon hole weapons that evolved over hundreds of years and were used by creative and resourceful killers is going to errupt into a lot of relatively futile talk.
In game terms simplifing something as complex of as human fighting is always going to leave holes (weak points in the armor of the system, Ha ha) that we can all talk about adnausem. Our adjustments to them will have different holes. The goal is to find a system that reduces the size of the holes. In that sense I think PF is genious in its simplicity.
If you ignore Dervish Dances cultural context in Golorian you still have a number of factors that keep it from being over powered imho. It requires nothing in your other hand, this means no shields. This means that while Dex is now covering a lot of bonuses, unlike other one handed weapon builds you will not have room for a shield. Also even with the feat a two handed weapon combatant gets 1.5 str so will out damage a dervish dancer.
Game balance wise I think keeping the damage at 1d6 is really important. It might be only a +1 average damage but I think if we are honest damage die is a big part of weapon choice.
Lastly I have always understood that weapon finesse is about prescion placement AND speed, not just speed. It is limited in weapon choice because heavier weapons become impractical for precision placement but still can be extreemly fast.
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Greatswords and the such were generally the rage of barbarian Germanic tribes whose fighting style was all about brute strength and the need to chop into armor.
Actually, greatswords were still pretty popular in the age of blackpowder. The Landesknecht were known for their greatsword usage in the 15th and 16th cent for example. So really...not that far off as you would think.
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If you ignore Dervish Dances cultural context in Golorian you still have a number of factors that keep it from being over powered imho. It requires nothing in your other hand, this means no shields. This means that while Dex is now covering a lot of bonuses, unlike other one handed weapon builds you will not have room for a shield. Also even with the feat a two handed weapon combatant gets 1.5 str so will out damage a dervish dancer.Game balance wise I think keeping the damage at 1d6 is really important. It might be only a +1 average damage but I think if we are honest damage die is a big part of weapon choice.
Lastly I have always understood that weapon finesse is about prescion placement AND speed, not just speed. It is limited in weapon choice because heavier weapons become impractical for precision placement but still can be extreemly fast.
The no shield is less of an issue for somebody using dervish dance then you think as they will be focused pretty much excusively on dex (or are a magus and has acess to the shield spell). That means that even if they don't have the shield bonus to AC, they will still have about the same AC as somebody who doesn't DD and use a shield anyways...only with more damage. Now compared to THF...yes you do less damage...but you have better defense...which is the bonus of the sword and board style so not really directly comparable. Compared to TWF style...well unless that TWF style is to use a shield as the off hand, DD kinda blows that away like everything else...and using a shield TWF style is pretty dang feat intensive. Is DD game breaking? No...it isn't spell casting after all. Is it more powerful then other styles? Nope archery still wins. THF can be argues better as well...but it does kind win vs the other styles...and I think that is why people have issues with it. People not fighter types tend to use those other fighting styles...so this style becomes a top teir for a LOT of classes and basically a no brainer for the magus.
And yes you are right about precision AND speed for finesse.
Something of note is the design of the Katana. It's handle is much longer in relation to it's blade if compared to say a greatsword. This means that the katana sacrifices power for speed, the same as choking up on a baseball bat would do. I'm not sure what this proves or whose side of the argument it falls on... or even if there is an argument, it seems like people just want to show off how much Japanese they know which seems a little underwhelming since with google even someone who has no knowledge can sound like a master, but to each their own I suppose.
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Something of note is the design of the Katana. It's handle is much longer in relation to it's blade if compared to say a greatsword. This means that the katana sacrifices power for speed, the same as choking up on a baseball bat would do. I'm not sure what this proves or whose side of the argument it falls on... or even if there is an argument, it seems like people just want to show off how much Japanese they know which seems a little underwhelming since with google even someone who has no knowledge can sound like a master, but to each their own I suppose.
That's not entirely true. If you hold the great sword at the ricosso and the full end of the hilt, you end up with a greater ratio of hilt to blade then a katana. Katana has on average a 28 inch blade a 10 inch handle. Which means blade to hilt is 2.8:1. A greatsword on average has a 14 inch handle and a 42 inch blade. Which means it's 3:1/...BEFORE you choke up as you said. Once you do that, the greatsword is now 20 inches of hilt and 36 inches of blade for a ratio of just 1.8:1.