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Clarification on Dragon Style / Dragon Ferocity


Rules Questions


Okay, this has been driving me batty for a while. I'm not sure exactly how I'm supposed to calculate the extra damage for this.

I have a +5 Str mod currently, would it come out to (for just Dragon Style):

1A.) Take your regular Str mod (+5) and then add 1.5x Str mod to that (7) for a total of +12 damage.

or

1B.) Take your regular Str mod (+5) and then add half (an extra +2) for a total of +7?

And going off that, does Dragon Ferocity:

2A.) Add another 1.5x Str mod to damage (another +7 total) for a total of +19 (which seems a mite ridiculous to me)

2B.) Add another half of your Str mod to all attacks (an extra +2 off of the previous 1A) for a total of +14

2C.) 2A or 2B added to the previous 1B (for a total of either +14 or +9)

or, finally

2D.) Just applies the Dragon Style damage bonus to ALL Unarmed Strikes made in a round, instead of just the first.

You'd think this would be obvious, but it's been scratching around inside my brain for a week now.

And while we're here, how does Two Weapon Fighting work for a MoMS? I assume it just lets me make a full attack that does 2 attacks, with no penalty on attack rolls since neither hit would be made with an off hand?


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As i read it
Dragon Style: you add 1-1/2 times your strength bonus to the unarmed strike damage (as damage for 2HW) INSTEAD OF 1 time as used to.
Valid only for:
- unarmed strike
- once a round: you must wait the begining of your next turn to recuperate this power if you used it.
- first unarmed strike: only for the first strike

Dragon Ferocity:
As long as you use Dragon Style, you gain an "untyped bonus" to damage rolls of unarmed strike (this bonus = 1/2 bonus strength)
Valid for all your unarmed strikes.

So with +5 bonus strength

First unarmed strike of the round:
+7 bonus strength (Dragon style) +2 bonus "untyped" (Dragon ferocity)

Other unarmed strike of the round:
+5 bonus strength (normal damage for a monk) +2 bonus "untyped" (Dragon ferocity)


Rynjin wrote:

I have a +5 Str mod currently, would it come out to (for just Dragon Style):

1A.) Take your regular Str mod (+5) and then add 1.5x Str mod to that (7) for a total of +12 damage.

or

1B.) Take your regular Str mod (+5) and then add half (an extra +2) for a total of +7?

1A. It changes your multiplier from 1 to 1.5.

That means +7 on your first attack and +5 on all the others.

Rynjin wrote:

2A.) Add another 1.5x Str mod to damage (another +7 total) for a total of +19 (which seems a mite ridiculous to me)

2B.) Add another half of your Str mod to all attacks (an extra +2 off of the previous 1A) for a total of +14

2C.) 2A or 2B added to the previous 1B (for a total of either +14 or +9)

or, finally

2D.) Just applies the Dragon Style damage bonus to ALL Unarmed Strikes made in a round, instead of just the first.

I have no idea what your answers are saying, so here's the correct one.

All of your strength multipliers increase by .5. So your first attack deals Str x 2, and your other attacks deal Str x 1.5.

That would mean +10 on your first attack and +7 on all the others.

Rynjin wrote:
And while we're here, how does Two Weapon Fighting work for a MoMS? I assume it just lets me make a full attack that does 2 attacks, with no penalty on attack rolls since neither hit would be made with an off hand?

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for the Monk's unarmed strike and two weapon fighting explicitly requires an off-hand weapon, so you can only use the monk's special unarmed strike as the "main hand" weapon during TWF (which is kind of sucky because non-monks can dual wield just unarmed strikes). You'll need an actual weapon to use as an off-hand attack if you want to TWF unless your GM rules Monks have both their special Unarmed Strike and the regular unarmed strike everyone has.


I'm not sure if you can combine two .5 strength multipliers to one 1 strength multiplier.
I think that you really have to use both times the .5 with rounding down both times.
So the first attack would end up being at +9 not +10.
But I might be wrong.


Umbranus wrote:

I'm not sure if you can combine two .5 strength multipliers to one 1 strength multiplier.

I think that you really have to use both times the .5 with rounding down both times.

They're two different effects.

Dragon Style: "you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round."

Dragon Ferocity: "you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus."

The first one changes your normal Strength bonus to damage from whatever it was into 1-1/2. This doesn't result in 2.5x or anything like that because it's altering your existing Strength bonus to damage.

The second one adds a bonus that is equal to half your Strength bonus. This is a new untyped bonus that adds to your damage, just like Power Attack or Weapon Specialization. It's just variable in that the bonus is equal to half of your Strength bonus at the time.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Bear in mind that your STR mid is still only +5. So when you are adding extra .5 STR mid you are calculating that off +5 rather then +7.

So Dragon Ferocity would be +9 rather then +10 for your first UAS wouldn't it?


Krodjin wrote:

Bear in mind that your STR mid is still only +5. So when you are adding extra .5 STR mid you are calculating that off +5 rather then +7.

So Dragon Ferocity would be +9 rather then +10 for your first UAS wouldn't it?

Strength bonus: +5

Dragon Style: 1.5x5 = 7
Dragon Ferocity: .5x5 = 2

7+2 =9

So yes. mplindustries was shorthanding it as 1.5+.5 = 2x Str, but given the rounding that isn't always correct.

-edit-
Which is exactly what Umbranus was saying. Man, I'm slow.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Umbranus wrote:

I'm not sure if you can combine two .5 strength multipliers to one 1 strength multiplier.

I think that you really have to use both times the .5 with rounding down both times.
So the first attack would end up being at +9 not +10.
But I might be wrong.

I don't think I agree with that. I mean, I can see the argument and wouldn't fight anyone on the point, but I have always assumed that rounding off the decimals was the last thing you did before applying the damage, not something done to each modifier before adding.

To me, the calculation looks like this:

5 x 1.5 = 7.5
5 x .5 = 2.5
7.5 + 2.5 = 10

If there were another source of .5 multiplier somehow (not actually aware of anything that does this, just a hypothetical example), then I would say the total was 12.5, which rounds to 12.


going along this question line, how about combined with power attack?

power attack specifically states that natural attacks that get 1.5 strength bonus to attacks get a 50% increase in damage from power attack.

it states under the monk description that monk attacks are considered natural weapons (although i'm not sure that translates to ACTUAL 'natural attacks' for power attack), then all dragon ferocity attacks could get that 50% increase in power attack damage.

note that non-monk characters/creatures that have natural attacks can get 2 feats to do this regardless(weapon focus and feral combat training). i'm just wondering if people believe monks doing this would get the bonus because of the monk description of unarmed attacks.


asthyril wrote:
going along this question line, how about combined with power attack?

I don't think being able to add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round is the same as having a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

Further, it's not very clear that Power Attack is an effect that enhances or improves natural weapons.

People could effectively argue either point, though.


I think you can argue that Dragon Style lets you deal extra Power Attack damage on your first attack, but there's no way Dragon Ferocity does that for your later attacks.


Dragon Ferocity wrote:
While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus.

which gives 1 plus a half strength damage

Power Attack wrote:
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

this works fine with say, a lion who has (3+int and) dragon ferocity, weapon focus:claws, feral combat training, and power attack. it would increase claw and rake attacks (which are defined as claws) using power attack with the 50% increase

the question is whether or not the monk unarmed attack description counts as primary natural attacks, which is usually bite/claw/gore/slam/sting/talons

Monk wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

i read that to be just for things like magic fang OR magic weapon to work equally fine with fists, or some way to add fiery burst to fists, not actually making them natural attacks, but i can see the argument otherwise.


asthyril wrote:
Dragon Ferocity wrote:
While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus.
which gives 1 plus a half strength damage

That doesn't make it a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. That makes it whatever it is, with a bonus to damage equal to half your Strength bonus. Ferocity doesn't change your strength bonus to damage, it just gives you a bonus, like Weapon Specialization or Prayer.

asthyril wrote:
this works fine with say, a lion who has (3+int and) dragon ferocity, weapon focus:claws, feral combat training, and power attack. it would increase claw and rake attacks (which are defined as claws) using power attack with the 50% increase

A lion's bite and claws are primary natural weapons, yes, but they don't get 1-1/2 strength modifier to damage. Giving them a separate bonus equal to half it's strength modifier still isn't the same thing.


Thank you guys, you have no idea how much that was bothering me. I actually rounded down to 7 total before because I didn't want to be killing things I had no right to, so a +3 damage boost is great!


Grick wrote:
asthyril wrote:
Dragon Ferocity wrote:
While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus.
which gives 1 plus a half strength damage

That doesn't make it a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. That makes it whatever it is, with a bonus to damage equal to half your Strength bonus. Ferocity doesn't change your strength bonus to damage, it just gives you a bonus, like Weapon Specialization or Prayer.

asthyril wrote:
this works fine with say, a lion who has (3+int and) dragon ferocity, weapon focus:claws, feral combat training, and power attack. it would increase claw and rake attacks (which are defined as claws) using power attack with the 50% increase

A lion's bite and claws are primary natural weapons, yes, but they don't get 1-1/2 strength modifier to damage. Giving them a separate bonus equal to half it's strength modifier still isn't the same thing.

well i think we are just going to have to agree that we disagree. adding your str, then half you str is still a 1.5 increase in damage as far as i'm concerned. power attack makes no distinction in how you get there, just that the bonus is 1.5 times your strength score, which dragon ferocity always gives.

Cheliax

Let's break this down, shall we?

Umbranus and Grick have the right of it. 1.5x strength instead of 1.0x strength on the first UAS from dragon style, as well as untyped half strength bonus on all UAS for the round.

5x1.5 = 7.5 (round down to 7)
5x0.5 = 2.5 (round down to 2)
for a total of +9, assuming Strength of +5.

This does not allow you to increase power attack damage.

From the PRD:

Power Attack wrote:
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Unarmed Strike Damage wrote:
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).


Dezhem wrote:

Let's break this down, shall we?

Umbranus and Grick have the right of it. 1.5x strength instead of 1.0x strength on the first UAS from dragon style, as well as untyped half strength bonus on all UAS for the round.

5x1.5 = 7.5 (round down to 7)
5x0.5 = 2.5 (round down to 2)
for a total of +9, assuming Strength of +5.

This does not allow you to increase power attack damage.

From the PRD:

Power Attack wrote:
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Unarmed Strike Damage wrote:
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).

umm at the end we were talking about natural attacks, not unarmed strikes. the unarmed strikes rule you quoted doesnt really apply. power attack specifically states that primary natural attacks that get a 1.5 bonus in damage from str will get a 50% bonus in damage from power attack. dragon ferocity in the example i gave makes all your claws do 1.5 more strength damage.


No, Dragon Ferocity makes all your Unarmed Strikes deal extra damage equal to 50% of your Strength bonus. 1.5 x Str is not the same in this case as 1 x Str + .5 x Str.

Besides, Unarmed Strikes are not primary natural attacks. They're not natural attacks at all.

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