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Building a gunslining rogue


Advice

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I had an idea of a feat intensive gunslining rogue which at 20th lvl would attack 7 times using speed on both pistols, 2 weapon fighting and multishot so my attack bonus would be 11/11/11/11/6/6/1/1 starting out with fient so subtract dex and armor ac while dealing 261 damage a round on average. What else could I add to increase damage output, and what else should I do for optimization? Thanks in advance.


Just checking, which of the methods are you using to dual wield when using pistols? Weapon cords (I assume since this seems to be a pure rogue from the first post) Also, do these feats include exotic weapon proficiency, or are you in a "guns everywhere" setting where they are simple weapons?

The amateur gunslinger feat will let you get grit. Not very useful, since it is just a bit, but you are shooting up to 7 times a round. If you are not using revolvers, I would think they would misfire at least once during all that. A grit point will let use use quick clear. That is one of the main advantages of it.


I assume you mean Many shot not multi-shot. Also Many Shot does not work with guns.


Ah, since you are looking at level twenty, might as well suggest the rogue talent stealthy sniper. If you use stealth to snipe, you only take a -10 instead of the usual -20 to stealth. It is mostly hilarious since you are acting like a poor man's machine gun, but it is entirely possible not to be seen doing it.

"where did that full six seconds of gun fire come from?" *they look around* "I...don't...know..."


exotic weapon proficiency firearm. and yes whisperknives I did mean many shot.


Lemres thanks for the sugestion which I will take although my main way of getting sneak attack is using fient to to make them lose dex.


Wait, never mind about taking amateur gun slinger, just noticed there is a rogue talent for it, and that one also gives you a free grit feat (if you can apply for it). There is also a talent for getting fire arm proficiency too (prerequisite for the grit talent).

So maybe ignore guns in the beginning, just do bows and take the feats that work for all ranged weapons, and just collect those two talents. Frees up your feats. Also, try to get good at ranged weapons before you try doing the whole two weapon fighting thing. It will just make your life a lot better.


I could see it being even funnier if you used dragon pistols, nothing says sneaky like 6 blasts of pistol shotguns.


thanks lemres, do you have any good build sugestions, also what about two hand crossbows in beginning?

Sczarni

There are rogue talents that make guns viable for a rogue-- granting (I believe) proficiency, Amateur Gunslinger, and Gunsmithing plus one additional grit feat. All for I think two rogue talents (one of which is an advanced talent).

The problems are: Speed doesn't stack if you have two speed weapons, and you can't benefit from a feint with ranged attacks-- the rules for feint specifically say melee attacks.

Between the Point-Blank Shot feat tree and the 2WF feats, I don't know if you can pull off two pistols without being a gunslinger. Or possibly a fighter.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just finished a campaign where a player was Rogue 11/Gunslinger 3. It was a viscious combo. He didn't see a need to go higher than GS3 because he was more attached to the Rogue abilities, as a Sniper archetype.


Get an alchemical cartridge and make them into flame throwers too. See how far you can take your GM before he calls bull.

Ah, gunsmithing is the feat you'll need though, due to the aforementioned misfire rate. It might just be easier to take a few levels in gun slinger at this rate though than using the talents. 5 levels of gunslinger in the pistolero archetype would net you gun training, which adds your DEX to damage. You'd lose a couple of sneak attack die, but from the added damage to each hit...it would be worth it. Plus a bonus feat and nimble +1 to your AC as icing on the cake.


thanks Silent although I might go more towards xorial suggests.


Lemres the advanced firearms have no missfire and I would save up for those although I will probably go pistelero for a few levels.


xorial wrote:
Just finished a campaign where a player was Rogue 11/Gunslinger 3. It was a viscious combo. He didn't see a need to go higher than GS3 because he was more attached to the Rogue abilities, as a Sniper archetype.

That looks really fun to me! Although I might be inclined to get 5 levels of Gunslinger in order to get Gun Training (Add DEX to gun damage). It would give up a rogue talent for a bonus feat, and 1d6 of sneak attack in favor of +DEX to damage.


Is your DM allowing advanced firearms? Because based on my general knowledge in my game as well as hearsay on the forums the vast majority don't.


Bleeding attack and Crippling strike are always good to have. One does bleed points equal to your sneak attack (goes through DR and does not stack over multiple attacks) and the other does 2 STR damage per sneak attack. Both of those look like they'd apply. With upwards of 6 or 7 attacks, you would probably put anything that survived the assault out of commission (since usually the enemies with that kind of hp are the warriors, who rely on strength.)


As a point I'd go Rogue X/GS(Musket Master 5) if I was aiming for a sniper just because it's more thematically appropriate. Gun Training is definitely worth going far enough to get it's probably the singe ability that makes a gunslinger come close to tying up with a equivalent level archer.

This build also nets you 2 freebie feats and lets you reload as a free with 0 investment by level 3. And I would definitely start as GS simply because I feel it's easier to roleplay and more so because the GS scales better than the Rogue, while they both have poor early games the GS becomes good by 5 while if you went rogue into GS you lose BAB and slow down getting the crucial abilities.

So lets say you're going to start GS.

Human Gunslinger Musket Master lvl 1 20pb
Str 10
Dex 16+2 racial
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10

Feats: Gunsmithing(free), Rapid Reload(muskets)(free), Point Blank shot, Precise shot(Human bonus)

At level 3 grab Rapid Shot
At level 4 grab Deadly Aim
At 6 grab Clustered Shots(Or Skill Focus: Stealth if you like)
From then on it's all gravy. Pick up an Agile dagger in case you get swallowed or something and enjoy.


yes my gm allows advanced firearms,good idea leemres on crippling/bleeding and yeah 5 lvls gunslinger for +dex to damage.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Blueluck wrote:
xorial wrote:
Just finished a campaign where a player was Rogue 11/Gunslinger 3. It was a viscious combo. He didn't see a need to go higher than GS3 because he was more attached to the Rogue abilities, as a Sniper archetype.
That looks really fun to me! Although I might be inclined to get 5 levels of Gunslinger in order to get Gun Training (Add DEX to gun damage). It would give up a rogue talent for a bonus feat, and 1d6 of sneak attack in favor of +DEX to damage.

Actually, now that you mentioned that, he may have gone to Gunslinger 5. I will have to pull that HL file back up & look.


Weapon cords - Meh.
Use:
GLOVE OF STORING
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 6th
Slot hands; Price 10,000 gp (one glove); Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This device is a single leather glove. On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. While stored, the item has negligible weight. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the item is a free action. The item is shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Spell durations are not suppressed, but continue to expire. If the glove's effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. A glove of storing uses up your entire hands slot. You may not use another item (even another glove of storing) that also uses the hands slot.

CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, shrink item; Cost 5,000 gp

PRD LINK

Note it is ONE glove, so you need two, one for each hand/pistol.

Sequence:
Fire Left Pistol,
Fire Right Pistol,

Free Action: Left Pistol to Left Glove of Storing.
Free Action: Reload Right Pistol (Rapid Reload (Pistol) + Alchemical Cardridge (Paper) = Free Action reload)
Free Action: Left .Pistol back from Glove of Storing.
Free Action: Right Pistol to Right Glove of Storing.
Free Action: Reload Left Pistol (Rapid Reload (Pistol) + Alchemical Cardridge (Paper) = Free Action reload).
Free Action: Right Pistol back from Glove of Storing.

You have now reloaded both pistols with one hand free for each reload and have two loaded pistols back in your grubby little hands to fire.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Mind the AoOs ...

(If you are a righty, switch the order, concept remains the same)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Arizhel wrote:


DESCRIPTION
This device is a single leather glove. On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. While stored, the item has negligible weight. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the item is a free action. The item is shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Spell durations are not suppressed, but continue to expire. If the glove's effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. A glove of storing uses up your entire hands slot. You may not use another item (even another glove of storing) that also uses the hands slot.

CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, shrink item; Cost 5,000 gp

PRD LINK

You need to read closer. You can only use one glove.


Meh! So use one glove, and pop different pistols in and out of the single glove. Will still work.


I'm usually a single-class kinda guy, but this Gunslinger/Rogue thing is pretty cool.

Here's a level 10 build I like.

Gunslinger(Musket Master) 5/Rogue(Sniper) 10:

Gunslinger/Rogue
Male Human Gunslinger (Musket Master) 5 Rogue (Sniper) 5
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 25, touch 15, flat-footed 21 (+9 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 84 (5d10+5d8+20)
Fort +9, Ref +17, Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, uncanny dodge
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 Rapier +16/+11 (1d6+1/18-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Distance Musket +17/+12 (1d12+8/x4)
Special Attacks accuracy, deadly range (40'), sneak attack +3d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +8; CMD 23
Feats Clustered Shots, Gunsmithing, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Musket), Rapid Reload (Musket), Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Musket)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +17 (+13 jump), Climb +1, Craft (alchemy) +4, Craft (firearms) +4, Diplomacy +13, Disable Device +17, Escape Artist +17, Fly +4, Heal +6, Linguistics +4, Perception +15, Ride +8, Sense Motive +6, Sleight of Hand +8, Stealth +17, Survival +6, Swim +1
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ deed: deadeye, deed: fast musket, deed: gunslinger initiative, deed: pistol-whip, deed: quick clear, deed: steady aim, grit, musket training (+7, misfire value -2), rogue talents (fast stealth, finesse rogue)
Other Gear Celestial armor, +1 Distance Musket, +1 Rapier, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Cloak of resistance +2, Ring of protection +1, 3630 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Accuracy (Ex) Halve all range increment penalties with a bow or crossbow.
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Range (40') (Ex) Ranged sneak attacks may be made within 40'
Deed: Deadeye (Ex) Use 1 grit per extra range increment to make a touch attack beyond the first.
Deed: Fast Musket (Ex) At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm. This deed replaces the utility shot deed.
Deed: Gunslinger Initiative (Ex) While have Grit, can use a free hand to draw a non-hidden firearm as part of the initiative check.
Deed: Pistol-Whip (Ex) Use 1 grit, melee attack with firearm gains enh. bonus and free CMB check to knock prone.
Deed: Quick Clear (Ex) While have grit, remove the effects of a misfire. Use 1 grit to do as move action.
Deed: Steady Aim (Ex) At 1st level, as long as a musket master has at least 1 grit point, she can take a move-equivalent action to increase the accuracy of a two-handed firearm. When she does, she increases the range increment of the firearm she is firing by 10 feet. This
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Grit (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on firearm crit/killing blow.
Gunsmithing You can use a gunsmithing kit to craft/repair firearms and ammo.
Musket Training (+7, misfire value -2) (Ex) Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Ev
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Rapid Reload (Musket) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Reload (Musket) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Sneak Attack +3d6 +3d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Gunslinger Vivisectionist works better.

Especially if you nab some extra arms.


why rapid reload twice blueluck? Otherwise not bad but not two sneak attacks a round, which is ok. Why distance musket I can only deal SA from 40ft away anyway. Finally why stick with the musket instead of upgrading to a rifle? I will keep all suggestions in mind and one final question. how do you reliably SA with a brutal -10- to SA. Also is rogue or ninja a better stealth class for this build?


why rapid reload twice blueluck? Otherwise not bad but not two sneak attacks a round, which is ok. Why distance musket I can only deal SA from 40ft away anyway. Finally why stick with the musket instead of upgrading to a rifle? I will keep all suggestions in mind and one final question. how do you reliably SA with a brutal -10- to SA. Also is rogue or ninja a better stealth class for a gunslinging rogue build?

Sczarni

I'm still a little dicey on dual-wielding pistols, but another benefit of 5 levels of Gunslinger is that the extra BAB will get you iterative attacks quicker. Also Nimble is quite a nice ability for a rogue-like character.

It's a shame gunslingers (and rogues) can't pick Weapon Specialization.

But I've done enough nay-saying, so here's some practical advice: as feat starved as you'll be in the early game, you'll want to make room for Secret Stash Deed, as it'll basically let you cheat on ammo costs. You should definitely have that feat before you get your third attack per round, as once you get Speed pistols, you'll burn through money right quick.


I think you could dual wield Silent Saturn just as you can dual wield hand crossbows.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Vivisectionist/Musket Master with x2 Vestigial Arms will work better, and deal more damage.

Goblin is a choice race pick, as the +4 to Dex, and feat that allows you to wield medium sized guns make it quite good.


yes, I like that blackblood troll, although I may go for 2 double barelled shotguns so I can do SA damage to a group of in a 30 ft cone since SA range is limited. What do you think of that vs. 2 rifles?

Sczarni

Run, Just Run wrote:
I think you could dual wield Silent Saturn just as you can dual wield hand crossbows.

Oh, you definitely CAN do it, I'm just worried that it isn't really as good of a strategy as the UC artwork might make it look.

Hand crossbows don't break when you roll a 1, and broken crossbows don't explode on a 1. If you plan to make upwards of 6 attacks in a round, a single 1 can hamstring your attack routine and force you to stop everything and spend your next round Quick Clearing. And with that many attacks, you've got plenty of opportunities for a 1. Plus, the alchemical cartridges you need to pull this off increase your misfire range.

Add to that the fact that as feat-starved as a gunslinger is (they need Rapid Reload, PBS, Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim, plus a feat for what to do in melee, possibly Quick Draw...) you're adding the Two-Weapon Fighting tree onto that.


Silent Saturn wrote:
Run, Just Run wrote:
I think you could dual wield Silent Saturn just as you can dual wield hand crossbows.

Oh, you definitely CAN do it, I'm just worried that it isn't really as good of a strategy as the UC artwork might make it look.

Hand crossbows don't break when you roll a 1, and broken crossbows don't explode on a 1. If you plan to make upwards of 6 attacks in a round, a single 1 can hamstring your attack routine and force you to stop everything and spend your next round Quick Clearing. And with that many attacks, you've got plenty of opportunities for a 1. Plus, the alchemical cartridges you need to pull this off increase your misfire range.

Add to that the fact that as feat-starved as a gunslinger is (they need Rapid Reload, PBS, Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim, plus a feat for what to do in melee, possibly Quick Draw...) you're adding the Two-Weapon Fighting tree onto that.

Advanced firearms only get a -2 to attack when they missfire and I would definetly start out with a hand crossbow until I could afford an advanced gun then dip into gunslinger, do you still think I should stay with crossbows?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Run, Just Run wrote:
yes, I like that blackblood troll, although I may go for 2 double barelled shotguns so I can do SA damage to a group of in a 30 ft cone since SA range is limited. What do you think of that vs. 2 rifles?

Won't work with the Musket Master.

Stick with twin Muskets, or twin double-barreled Muskets.


not true blackblood "Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier"


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I forgot about that. Still won't be able to use your Rapid Reload with them, and will have to take it again.

Wear Armor Spikes to threaten adjacent squares.


Ah, thats true I'll have to take rapid reload again but I still think it would be worth it SA in a 30ft spread is awesome. Thanks for 2 2-handed weapon idea though.

Sczarni

Okay, I re-read the firearms rules, and I take it all back-- this idea WILL work, and here's how:

-Your GM allows advanced firearms, so dual-wield REVOVLERS.
-Take the Surprise Attack and Snap Shot rogue talents
-Don't you dare take a gunslinger archetype that trades away Gunslinger's Initiative
-Make sure you have max ranks in Perception and a decent Wisdom score (which you'll need for grit anyway)

-Kill everybody before the surprise round is over :-D

Blackbloodtroll, how would he use 2 muskets? They're 2-hand weapons.


Run, Just Run wrote:
why rapid reload twice Blueluck?

Just a clerical error.

Run, Just Run wrote:
Why distance musket I can only deal SA from 40ft away anyway.

Firearms use touch AC within their first range increment only. Going beyond your first measurement isn't just a -2 to attack, with a firearm it's more like -8 attack. Extending your touch AC range from 40' to 80' makes a big difference.

Also, the Sniper ability Deadly Range (Ex)
At 3rd level, a sniper increases the range at which she can apply her sneak attack damage by 10 feet. This range increases by 10 feet for every 3 levels after 3rd.

And the potential to buy Sniper Goggles and extend the sneak attack range even farther.

Run, Just Run wrote:
Finally why stick with the musket instead of upgrading to a rifle?

I made the build using Early Firearms. It's what the majority of games use, including mine.

Run, Just Run wrote:
how do you reliably SA with a brutal -10- to SA.

I don't think I understood the question. What does the number "10" refer to?


Blueluck the -10 is to stealth forgot to mention, it's what I would take to sniping after using Snipe which is the most reliable way of SA ranged, unless theirs another way, also I just realized SA with snipe would only allow one attack and so I would need a second way to sneak attack for full round damage. Sorry I didn't clarify.


Also I realized I could use dazzling display and that would seringe very well with two double shotgun build because it demoralizes them and then everyone in a 30 ft. spread would take 8d8+64d6. Do you think this would be a viable strategy?


bumb

Cheliax

Don't bump your thread after a single hour of inactivity; the forums aren't fast enough for that.

How are you using Feint to get opponents flat-footed, and still doing good damage later on? Do you have some way of using Feint that is faster than a move action?

It depends on your campaign of course, but I don't often see an opportunity to snipe most of the time; often it is the bad guys ambushing the good guys, not the other way around. The most reliable way of using sneak attack at range, IMO, is greater invisibility or tiny hut.


I realized feint won't work and I thought intimidate would but it does not. So I guess I'll just have to save for an invisibility ring and play a goblin for an insane bonus to stealth.

Sczarni

Obscuring Mist might also work, if the rogue is in the edge of the cloud and his target is outside the cloud. Grease works, until your target moves outside the 10-foot area you greased.

Then there was a whole thread about whether or not Blur lets you sneak attack at will. I don't know if a consensus was ever reached.

Here's hoping Run, Just Run has an arcane caster in his party!


Run, Just Run wrote:
I realized feint won't work and I thought intimidate would but it does not. So I guess I'll just have to save for an invisibility ring and play a goblin for an insane bonus to stealth.

Ninja Vanish trick.

or
Umd level 1 scroll. DC 21.


Errant can you do ninja/sniper, if so that is defienetly a good idea and I may do it even so.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Don't know if anyone addressed this, but I'm pretty sure Speed doesn't stack with another Speed weapon for a total of two extra attacks:

Speed: When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.


They did thanks though, I have to say though I'm not sure if I should go for shotgun instead of dual weiliding pistol so I can do a SA of 60ft. spread with 40ft. distance or peperbox rifle for dmg and range or 2 pistols know.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Silent Saturn wrote:

Blackbloodtroll, how would he use 2 muskets? They're 2-hand weapons.

Vestigial Arms Discovery.

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