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As a player, would this piss you off?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

151 to 191 of 191 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

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Ravingdork wrote:
Having your long time character suddenly snuffed out by a Power Word: Kill spell from the GM? No save, no chance to avoid. Nothing. Just an unceremonious collapse unto death in front of "Enemy Spellcaster A."

No. I would probably feel bad losing a favored character if there was no way to get it back but I w0ould not be pissed at the GM unless the situation was total b*+!$%+&, like power word kill being used on us at a level where we could not hope to deal with such.

If it is a situation as you clarified then no. I trust my gm and know she does not just screw us to be petty or cruel.

But frankly adventuring is dangerous. I find the general assumption that seems common these day that nothing bad should ever happen to your characters to be pretty silly.


wraithstrike wrote:
OP is subject. I don't think it is OP. The players can do it also. At best you can say it is not how YOU like to play. Table flipping is a terrible idea. Walking away is easy if playstyles don't match up.

It's not overpowered for an NPC to step out of nowhere and cast a spell that that is totally out of his and the party's league? Just because "a PC could do it too" doesn't mean that it's not overpowered. It is.

A level 13 PC should NOT have to deal with a hostile 9th level spell, ESPECIALLY something like Power Word Kill. Yes it is overpowered, and it's a d**** GM move.

I am absolutely FOR presenting a worthy challenge, and also making PCs deal with the consequences of their actions (for example, if a PC sneaks into the tower of a necromancer he KNOWS is out of his league, he may very well become part of the necromancer's next experiment... or simply killed - yes, even by a Power Word Kill spell)...

but just out of the blue for no apparent reason other than "boom, deal with this. Good luck,"...? Bad GM.


Brain in a Jar wrote:

Wow. Lot of entitlement in this thread.

Would you also get upset if instead of a Power Word Kill it was another form of 100 damage?

What if you got pushed of a cliff and died from fall damage?

What if a Cavalier rode by and hit you with a Lance for that much?

Or any number of spells, attacks, abilities, that could easily render someone with 100 HP dead.

Can the PC do the exact same thing? Yes, they can use Power Word Kill. Keep in mind there is no NPC section and PC section for spells and such. If it's allowed by one it's allowed by all.

I know I just said it, but it's worth repeating: just because "PCs can do it too" doesn't mean it's not overpowered. A 13 Hit Dice character being able to cast Power Word Kill IS OVERPOWERED, regardless of whether it's a PC or an NPC. It's an exploit that's been around since 3rd edition and Pathfinder just never addressed it.

In all of your many examples you presented, they all miss the original poster's point: there are very few ways to avoid PWK, especially if you're below level 17. If you don't have more than 100 HP (which is EASY for the caster to overcome, especially in the middle of combat), you don't have substantial SR (which almost NO PC invests resources in), then you're basically screwed unless you for some reason invested 38,000 GP to get a Scarab of Protection. It's kinda BS.

If you're willfully fighting on the edge of a cliff, you deserve to be pushed off. You can take 100 damage in 1 round from ANY OTHER SOURCE and you MIGHT STILL LIVE. You have AC, HP, saving throws, and other defenses to give you a fighting chance against pretty much ANY OTHER ATTACK. But gods forbid you get dinged up a few times and anyone with a scroll of Power Word Kill comes along with all sources dumped into UMD...! Your life is suddenly in their hands, regardless of what level or CR they are, or how many hit dice they have.

I'm sorry, but some of you think this is fair? If I'm the one out of MY mind, maybe I should just quit now and rethink everything.


Sinatar wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
OP is subject. I don't think it is OP. The players can do it also. At best you can say it is not how YOU like to play. Table flipping is a terrible idea. Walking away is easy if playstyles don't match up.

It's not overpowered for an NPC to step out of nowhere and cast a spell that that is totally out of his and the party's league? Just because "a PC could do it too" doesn't mean that it's not overpowered. It is.

A level 13 PC should NOT have to deal with a hostile 9th level spell, ESPECIALLY something like Power Word Kill. Yes it is overpowered, and it's a d**** GM move.

I am absolutely FOR presenting a worthy challenge, and also making PCs deal with the consequences of their actions (for example, if a PC sneaks into the tower of a necromancer he KNOWS is out of his league, he may very well become part of the necromancer's next experiment... or simply killed - yes, even by a Power Word Kill spell)...

but just out of the blue for no apparent reason other than "boom, deal with this. Good luck,"...? Bad GM.

No. Bad GM in your opinion,and it could be dealt with by having more HP. The PC in my scenario was level 14, and even at level 13 they have access to resurrection so they can deal with it, but that would not fit RD's scenario since the caster is "run of the mill", and APL+1 is not "run of the mill". It is challenging, IIRC.


I would not say you are out of your mind. I will say that what is OP is hard to prove as an across the board statement. Those evil GM's I played under have tried to do worse.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Sinatar wrote:
I'm sorry, but some of you think this is fair? If I'm the one out of MY mind, maybe I should just quit now and rethink everything.

Don't over react. Some people can't handle the game as written. That is what house-rules are for. If you and your group think its overpowered that's fine, you'll change it.

Others like myself don't see it as overpowered, since i know of ways to help protect against it as i level up. The game changes as you get higher level.

Tactics need to change as you level. At Level One saves and AC might be all you need but as you continue leveling you start to add things; Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis, Remove Disease, Restoration, Raise Dead, Death Ward, Contingency, Spell Resistance, etc. If you use the same tactics you used at level one to defend yourself at level 13 then it's kinda your own fault when you die a horrible death.

Sinatar wrote:
A 13 Hit Dice character being able to cast Power Word Kill IS OVERPOWERED, regardless of whether it's a PC or an NPC. It's an exploit that's been around since 3rd edition and Pathfinder just never addressed it.

Is it really overpowered?

Is a 9th level Wizard using a Scroll of a 7th level spell overpowered?

Or is it more about you think Power Word spells are overpowered?

Or maybe you just don't understand it properly and how easy it is to thwart by the time you'll see it used.

For a 13th level Wizard to use a Scroll of Power Word Kill they need;

1. Spend 3,825 gold for the scroll

2. Make a caster level check DC 18. There is a 25% chance of failure. If they fail there is a least a 5% chance of a mishap.

So at that level there is a chance of failure after spending a large sum of gold on a single use item that might work.

That's also assuming the target isn't protected in any manner against death effects, and has less than 100 HP.

My main point is that by 13th-level you should have thought about protecting yourself and allies against death effects. They are deadly by nature and more common as you get into higher levels.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
idilippy wrote:
Everyone seems to be bringing up Raise Dead,
Yes, because some of us have moved on from the Power Word Kill discussion to the broader topic of being prepared for character death and the like.

Ah, ok. I noticed a few people bringing up Raise Dead about this particular scenario but if the rest are bringing that up for general scenarios then that's cool, just figured I'd point that out about the spell.

Quote:
It should also be noted that you can bounce back from it with a raise dead spell, and you could have avoided it with a death ward spell.
Quote:
if the party is level 14 or under, a "generic" opponent would typically not have 9th level spells on scrolls. That to me states a specific (named/important) NPC/adversary and thus i'm afraid i can't contribute much aside from. Raise Dead is level 5. you're not gone for good.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Then yes, those people are wrong and should feel bad. :)


Perhaps you should bargain with your GM about finding out some way to bring your PC back from the dead. Or perhaps you might create a new character that can summon an army of Goblins to attack your GM sometime in the middle of the night.


Well, I didn't intend for anyone to feel bad or anything if they screwed up regarding raise dead, I actually just screwed this up myself in game to a player who died to a death effect. This scenario reminded me of my DM mistake (though power word kill in particular wasn't involved) and figured it'd be worth pointing out.

Anyways, I've given my 2 cents about the topic at hand, which seems to be a hypothetical and not an in-game situation anyways, so don't really have any more to add.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Charlie Bell wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Implosion or bust.
You haven't lived until you've turned a PC into a sugar cube with implosion.

It is a horrifyingly visceral spell, ain't it?

Nothing sets up a high level villain or sells the idea of "this is someone to run away from at this time" for lower level parties quite like watching a powerful NPC knight charging the bad guy and suddenly crumple into a blood-seeping ball of mangled steel rolling to a stop at their killer's feet. :O

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

I really need to start a "If your GM suddenly assaulted sexually your dog, would that make you happy?" thread some day...


I think you missed the message of "do not make provocative parody threads" that was sent to a similar thread before it got locked.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

The only missing thing here is your sense of sarcasm, Icy ;)


Knowing you, I was worried you'd be crazy enough to say that with a straight face.

And I am referring to your idea, not the post about sarcasm. I feel really tired right now.


Nah, I'd be fine with it. That's what happens at high level play. It's what, 10,000gp to get better? Annoying, but not anger-inducing. I'd be pretty peeved if this happened before 13th level, honestly, though you shouldn't anyways because it's a 9th level spell.


Depends on the level of the game. At high levels, this should totally be in play.

I have a MUCH better story though.

I was playing in a 5th level game. I had a GM teleport my character against my will to the deck of a galley four hundred miles away, without any sort of save, had the captain of the ship chop my arm off without any sort of roll to hit, damage, or save, and teleport me back to my prior location.

5th level character.

I was dumbfounded. I didn't even know how that was within the rules, and apparently neither did he, because I spent the next half hour trying to figure out if it was even legal. I discovered the only way to do it is with a Wish spell, and you still get a save on the unwanted teleport. So apparently the pirate captain had Fistandantalus and Elminster as deck hands on his boat, and was willing to burn reagents equal to five times the value of his entire vessel to 'teach me a lesson' or whatever. I called him on it, and he made some crap up about how he had special spells his NPCs were using that weren't in the book.

Most of his players quit within a month of that stunt. I quit that night.


Gorbacz, just work the terms "Monk" and "DPR" into your thread title.

Silver Crusade

It really depends. I play PFS, which has an extreme amount of lethality at lower levels. One of my friends had his oracle killed in two rounds by a @#$% pair of hobgoblin rogues. I was mad at the Hobgoblins, but the dude took it in stride, having no investment in him whatsoever. (We ended up getting the GM a little skull sticker.) On the other hand, if something happpened to my Cavalier, or a Sorceror I have in the works called Skygazer, a character I love the story behind, I would be mad. It hurts more when you give your characters a life of their own.


I have a player who gets too attached to his PCs to the point of a seemingly unhealthy level. I told him a long time ago that if he wanted to play in my games he needed to learn to let go a bit. If you cannot stand the thought of your character getting killed doing incredibly dangerous things then you should probably leave that character for your novel, your personal imagination, or back on the farm.

He's gotten better about it. Especially after he realized that I wasn't going to fudge for his character to survive. If anything I think his characters have gotten better (and he seems to try and make them OP less and less as well).

I love players who can take danger in stride. I have a friend who was playing a Fighter and an assassin NPC death-attacked him. He made his save and was like "She just used a Death-Attack on me? And she killed me horse? Why that cheeky...". In his mind, it wasn't an issue that the GM just used an NPC with a save-or-die effect at around 5th level or so. It was more than she was gonna totally gonna pay for murdering his horse. XD

Liberty's Edge

Ashiel wrote:
I love players who can take danger in stride. I have a friend who was playing a Fighter and an assassin NPC death-attacked him. He made his save and was like "She just used a Death-Attack on me? And she killed me horse? Why that cheeky...". In his mind, it wasn't an issue that the GM just used an NPC with a save-or-die effect at around 5th level or so. It was more than she was gonna totally gonna pay for murdering his horse. XD

Your example shows that the player was ok with his PC's horse dying. Not that he would have been ok with his 5-th level PC dying with no chance to act and try to prevent it.

How was the latter going to enhance the story of his character ?

Dying merely because of bad luck is not a hero's death IMO.

(BTW, I am talking about irremediable end-of-the-story death here. Not about a little stroll on Pharasma's lawn and back to the Material Plane)


Have we all not had Dark Dungeons moments though?


Brain in a Jar wrote:


What if you got pushed of a cliff and died from fall damage?

Requires a successful bull rush against my CMD first.

Quote:


What if a Cavalier rode by and hit you with a Lance for that much?

AC/Crane wing/etc

Quote:


Or any number of spells, attacks, abilities, that could easily render someone with 100 HP dead.

Saves.

Quote:


Can the PC do the exact same thing? Yes, they can use Power Word Kill. Keep in mind there is no NPC section and PC section for spells and such. If it's allowed by one it's allowed by all.

DM metagamingly knows how much hps you have. He knows whether it will succeed or fail. Can PCs know the same? Unlikely.

Plus, DMs determine whether you can buy high level scrolls.

You can't raise the dead from Death effects like Power Word kill, you need Resurrection.


The black raven wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
I love players who can take danger in stride. I have a friend who was playing a Fighter and an assassin NPC death-attacked him. He made his save and was like "She just used a Death-Attack on me? And she killed me horse? Why that cheeky...". In his mind, it wasn't an issue that the GM just used an NPC with a save-or-die effect at around 5th level or so. It was more than she was gonna totally gonna pay for murdering his horse. XD

Your example shows that the player was ok with his PC's horse dying. Not that he would have been ok with his 5-th level PC dying with no chance to act and try to prevent it.

How was the latter going to enhance the story of his character ?

Dying merely because of bad luck is not a hero's death IMO.

(BTW, I am talking about irremediable end-of-the-story death here. Not about a little stroll on Pharasma's lawn and back to the Material Plane)

Not all characters get to be heroes. Some are only given the opportunity to do so.


Some are born to do great things.

Some are born to die in a great way.

It's up to the Dice to choose what path you take.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Tels wrote:
It's up to the Dice to choose what path you take.

And it's up to my players how much I listen to the dice.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Tels wrote:
It's up to the Dice to choose what path you take.
And it's up to my players how much I listen to the dice.

My Dice speak louder than my players; I really don't pull punches. I let everyone know when they join my table I play dangerous games and there is always the chance you will die.


I've had the BBEG in more than one of my campaigns die to death attack, so no more disappointed than that. Also, it is funny to see grown men cheering over a successful death attack.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Tels wrote:
My Dice speak louder than my players; I really don't pull punches. I let everyone know when they join my table I play dangerous games and there is always the chance you will die.

That's nice. I do the same.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Tels wrote:
My Dice speak louder than my players; I really don't pull punches. I let everyone know when they join my table I play dangerous games and there is always the chance you will die.
That's nice. I do the same.

I always love it when someone posts something like this statement.

I know what you both mean, but I get a good chuckle out of how you have both said you warn players that they might die rather than that their characters might.


I have a D20 made out of steel. I call it my 'Hit Die' for people who aren't paying attention (texting, playing on phone etc). If I hit you, there's a chance you die.


Ashiel wrote:

I have a player who gets too attached to his PCs to the point of a seemingly unhealthy level. I told him a long time ago that if he wanted to play in my games he needed to learn to let go a bit. If you cannot stand the thought of your character getting killed doing incredibly dangerous things then you should probably leave that character for your novel, your personal imagination, or back on the farm.

I try my best to get people involved with their characters so this sits poorly with me. I feel a player's pain when they lose a treasured character. Death should matter. It is the final tragic end of a player's story. I am not saying the GM should pull punches, but neither should he use excessive force. There is a balance that should be observed. I don't want players to get so callused over their character's mortality that the story of the game no longer matters. This may even be part of the reason my games struggle at high level when death becomes a temporary setback.


Aranna wrote:
I don't want players to get so callused over their character's mortality that the story of the game no longer matters.

True.

You can't really do much story-wise with players that don't care about their character dying to the point that they will throw them headlong into danger like a sacrificial pawn in a chess strategy.

You also are limited in what events can occur in the story if you have a player so attached to a character that death of said character shuts down his ability to keep playing.

I found that the best approach is to simply tell players "character death will happen - but it is only as permanent as you let it be. A return to life, like anything else, is just a quest away."

That way a player that doesn't mind a dead character can just move on like they want to, and an attached player can be assured that this is just another chapter in the still ongoing story of their favorite character.


If the game is more fun for everyone if the heroes do NOT get permanently killed, then go with that. If you're sure the players will enjoy it more when they are reminded of their mortality, then go with that. My players know you can die in the game, but I as a DM would prefer to see their characters make it to the end. However, I don't pull punches despite that, since two sessions ago the Dwarf Cleric got killed by a two-headed troll. Thing is, they had a Cleric in the vicinity who was able to Ressurect him so he didn't need to give up his character.

Grand Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
Having your long time character suddenly snuffed out by a Power Word: Kill spell from the GM? No save, no chance to avoid. Nothing. Just an unceremonious collapse unto death in front of "Enemy Spellcaster A."

It's a level 9 spell. If we don't have something to deal with death by then, then I I get what I deserve. So no it doesn't bother me.


I do think there's an inconsistency between saying "as a GM, I let the dice fall where they may", and using PW:K, which doesn't use dice.

Shadow Lodge

Ok, then how about using the phrase: "I don't put rubber bumpers on the games I run."

Like that any better?


Aranna wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

I have a player who gets too attached to his PCs to the point of a seemingly unhealthy level. I told him a long time ago that if he wanted to play in my games he needed to learn to let go a bit. If you cannot stand the thought of your character getting killed doing incredibly dangerous things then you should probably leave that character for your novel, your personal imagination, or back on the farm.

I try my best to get people involved with their characters so this sits poorly with me. I feel a player's pain when they lose a treasured character. Death should matter. It is the final tragic end of a player's story. I am not saying the GM should pull punches, but neither should he use excessive force. There is a balance that should be observed. I don't want players to get so callused over their character's mortality that the story of the game no longer matters. This may even be part of the reason my games struggle at high level when death becomes a temporary setback.

"Excessive" is subjective though. That is why the players and GM's should have a mutual understanding of how lethal the game will be.


Kthulhu wrote:

Ok, then how about using the phrase: "I don't put rubber bumpers on the games I run."

Like that any better?

That sounds insulting, and nobody is trying to be insulting, at least I don't think so. People are just stating their preference for more lethal games at their table. Neither way is wrong. Now if the GM shifts from fudging for players to using more lethal methods without any warning, I would think that is a bad idea.


Ascalaphus wrote:
I do think there's an inconsistency between saying "as a GM, I let the dice fall where they may", and using PW:K, which doesn't use dice.

It does if the target has spell resistance.

One could even say that many dice were involved by that point if the players have been rolling hit points.

There is also the possibility that the GM has determined a way to randomly roll spell assignments for his NPC spell casters.

Now that I got one bit of rules and a pair of silly statements out of the way, a little personal opinion:

The phrase "let the dice fall where they may," has always meant to be a evocation of the idea that - good result or bad - you are going to keep playing the game because doing so is fun, even when the dice come up against you.

The Exchange

Starbuck_II wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:


What if you got pushed of a cliff and died from fall damage?

Requires a successful bull rush against my CMD first.

Quote:


What if a Cavalier rode by and hit you with a Lance for that much?

AC/Crane wing/etc

Quote:


Or any number of spells, attacks, abilities, that could easily render someone with 100 HP dead.

Saves.

Quote:


Can the PC do the exact same thing? Yes, they can use Power Word Kill. Keep in mind there is no NPC section and PC section for spells and such. If it's allowed by one it's allowed by all.

DM metagamingly knows how much hps you have. He knows whether it will succeed or fail. Can PCs know the same? Unlikely.

Plus, DMs determine whether you can buy high level scrolls.

You can't raise the dead from Death effects like Power Word kill, you need Resurrection.

I play wizards. There isn't a single game I'm not aware of the 100 PWK.

Its like grapples, opponents that ready, the need for high initiative just one of many things you should have a plan for.

Its one of the few things that favors "fighters" over wizards - that lends a small amount of balance - and I would be disappointed with a ref that DIDN'T use such tactics.

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