Getting victimized by that spell is pretty far down on the list of mean things a GM can do to a PC.
Back when I played D&D, I'd take having PW:K cast on my low-hp character long before I'd ever want to see that other 9th level spell - the most feared, terrifying spell in the game before Pathfinder nerfed it - cast on any of my characters.
You must be talking about meteor swarm!
Man, ground zero of that spell was like being hit by a tacnuke.
In 1st edition...playing since 1978...power word kill against 1 target only kills you if your at or below 60 hit points...with no save.
I roll in plain sight of my player so if I roll a 1...I rolled a 1...fairs fair since my players liked to use the reversed heal spell to reduce a huge elder dragon to 1-4 hit points with a single blown save...until I started to do the same.
If the party is high enough level that they're getting Power Word: Kill spells tossed at them, then they've probably encountered arbitrary random death long before that point.
The only thing I might be peeved at is the "no chance to avoid" bit, depending on how it's defined.
if the party is level 14 or under, a "generic" opponent would typically not have 9th level spells on scrolls. That to me states a specific (named/important) NPC/adversary and thus i'm afraid i can't contribute much aside from. Raise Dead is level 5. you're not gone for good.
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Wait, Power Word: Kill offers no save? Tough call.
Meh, sometimes death is random and unceremonious. Sometimes, you investigate a strange noise only to find yourself getting triple-criticalled by a random minotaur and dying from massive damage. Things happen, my friend, and unfortunately, most of them aren't good things. Unless the GM was going out of his way to kill you off...in which case, I'd be pretty pissed, yeah.
Getting victimized by that spell is pretty far down on the list of mean things a GM can do to a PC.
Back when I played D&D, I'd take having PW:K cast on my low-hp character long before I'd ever want to see that other 9th level spell - the most feared, terrifying spell in the game before Pathfinder nerfed it - cast on any of my characters.
You must be talking about meteor swarm!
Man, ground zero of that spell was like being hit by a tacnuke.
In 1st edition...playing since 1978...power word kill against 1 target only kills you if your at or below 60 hit points...with no save.
I roll in plain sight of my player so if I roll a 1...I rolled a 1...fairs fair since my players liked to use the reversed heal spell to reduce a huge elder dragon to 1-4 hit points with a single blown save...until I started to do the same.
Lol, Meteor Swarm. I'm talking about a spell that Pathfinder nerfed, not buffed (d6 damage from d4, ranged touch attack to hit and inflict some extra damage and make the save harder).
I would say that if you've got 7th level spells (access to resurrection so you could be raised) and there was a reason why the enemy caster had such a scroll and used it successfully then if a DM did that it would suck but not be the end of the world. It's a close range spell (25ft+5/2 levels), it allows spell resistance, and you have to be at 100 hit points or less before the spell works at all. By 7th level spells I'd expect some enemies with 8th leveled spells, and power word stun works at less than 151hp and can be as much of a death sentence if the power wording wizard has allies to take advantage.
Plus there's the classics like disintegrate, flesh to stone, greater invisibility two weapon fighting ninja assassins, charging massive raging barbarian two handed sword wielders, and hundreds of other ways to die or be taken out at all levels. If it happens, whatever the circumstance, the DMs I play with (and players I DM for) trust each other enough to know it wasn't a purposely built encounter to kill for spite.
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In 1st edition...playing since 1978...power word kill against 1 target only kills you if your at or below 60 hit points...with no save.
I've also been playing since 1978!
The loudest cheer that ever escaped my lips when role-playing, occurred in a second edition game in the late nineties. I was the only player with any real AD&D experience, the rest were college students draughted in to take over pre-existing characters that were already over 12th level. We were in the final epic battle on top of a plateau near the cliff edge. Gem golems, Red Wizards (including two-count 'em-two Zulkirs), black unicorns (you don't want to know!), enemy cavalry, etc, ad pants-wettium.
At one point the tougher Zulkir(!) looked at the ranger played by the new girl. DM asks, innocently, 'How many hit points do you have right now?'
She had no idea of the significance of the question and looked at her scratch paper.
'Sixty-one', she said.
'YYYESSSS!!!', from my corner! She just looked at me funny until I explained.
Later in the battle I was down to fifty-odd HPs when there was a lull in the battle and Cunningham (my dual-classed ex-Red Wizard/Paladin of Mystra) was faced with the big Zulkir (who Cunningham used to work for and who shared a mutual hatred). He was going to PW:K me, and I was going to throw a +5 shuriken from my Robe of Stars at him; it was all down to initiative....!
I won! Hit and killed him!
I did a happy dance! I am not given to dancing, but in this case I made an exception!
According to the NPC creation rules, NPCs should not have expendable magic items, such as scrolls, of 9th-level spells until they are level 17 or thereabouts.
That means the earliest you should expect this without GM finagling is around level 16, where you would be regularly facing CR 16 encounters.
Probably safe to say the caster mook got the scroll from the BBEG, but since you could normally cast 8th-level spells at level 16, it's coming out of the blue a little early in this particular scenario.
(Also, I want it known that I don't create these kinds of threads just to mess with people, but rather to better gauge appropriate GM behavior and player reactions on a large scale--so as to be a better host in my own games.)
As you approach level 18 you should begin to expect an ward against 9th level spells.
I'd be a little miffed, and I'd want to make sure the NPC made his use scroll role.
but this could have been the GM being nice to let you know what's coming. There are a lot of 8th & 9th level spells that are really potent. Character death might not sound like a nice reminder, but maybe it could have been worse?
Ya it'd piss me off a little. But then I'd step up my game. I have an entire folder dedicated to the characters killed by just ONE GM. Puntar the Swamp Pirate might just find another life because I recycle all the good character concepts (and a good many of the 2nd rate ones too).
Hmm...maybe this theoretical character / party should invest in a wand of Death Ward.
In a typical party of four, such a wand would keep everyone protected for a grand total of 87.5 minutes before being completely exhausted. Let's hope those death spells rain down on you that Tuesday, rather than Thursday, or during lunch rather than breakfast.
Death Ward is a joke as a defensive buff. Its duration is just too short. Unless you're expecting it, such as when taking on a cult of death, or have already witnessed a fellow PC being murdered by such an effect, it's not likely to ever get seriously cast.
The only way I've found to have such an effect up consistently, is to carry around a darkskull with the spell keyed to it, but doing so is EVIL.
Lol, Meteor Swarm. I'm talking about a spell that Pathfinder nerfed, not buffed (d6 damage from d4, ranged touch attack to hit and inflict some extra damage and make the save harder).
Then maybe you should be more specific.
RD says he is always clear about when his post are hypothetical and when they are real. We shall we which one this falls into when he responds again. For now there is no point in debating the point until he give more info on this real or false scenario. :)
Only when he is cornered on it. In this case the Op certainly wasn't clear.
Since this depends HEAVILY on the facts and circumstances (and we have none of either) then there can be no answer. It's not even a good hypothetical.
Then maybe you should be more specific.
Lol, Meteor Swarm. I'm talking about a spell that Pathfinder nerfed, not buffed (d6 damage from d4, ranged touch attack to hit and inflict some extra damage and make the save harder).
I'm not trying to be a jackass, I'm just wondering if anyone else feared the dreaded Mordenkainen's Disjunction like me and my group. Getting killed is one thing; a Raise Dead or Resurrection will fix that. Losing all your magic items? That's the true dagger to the heart.
If you are 14th level, the BBEG should be about CR 16 (17th level NPC). If you were in the middle of a campaign with recurring villains, and one of your BBEGs is a wizard with other spell-chucking minions, then you should expect them to have some big guns on loan from their masters.
That said, the minion shouldn't teleport in with greater invisiblity on and just read the scroll at you. It's just not that fun. Hopefully your PC allies can get you raised or rezzed or whatever, and you can hopefully have more fun next time.
At least future battles will be more exciting because you know anyone can die at any time.
You're a leaf on the wind. Watch how you soar.
A permanent deathward belt buckle would only cost about 184,000G.
I wouldn't charge my players more than 60,000gp (the price of a darkskull) for a homebrew ongoing death ward effect. Maybe even half that, since a darkskull can do a lot more.
You're a leaf on the wind. Watch how you soar.
That was also a terrible way to kill off a major character.
Personally, I think GMs should work with their players to design campaigns, encounters, and adventures that are fun and challenging for everyone. There should be a chance of failure, but there should also be a fair chance of success. Even moments to shine, and not merely survive. It is a game, after all. The main goal should be fun for everyone, in all the different ways that different people like to have fun.
It is not a play or novel the GM is reading to his players.
If there is a tricky encounter on the way, there should be fair warning. Death by GM fiat is just not fun.
Death by GM fiat is just not fun.
Even if the only thing the GM got wrong, per the rules, is that the NPC was slightly over-geared?
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That's the way she goes, mate. That's the way she goes.
RD: a level 14 npc has 27,000gp. A lvl 9 scroll is just a fraction of this. CRB p453 states that leftover gp from a category may be spent on any other category. Because of this it is reasonable for a lvl14 wizard to spend some gold from weapons on something else, like a 9th level scroll.
- Gauss
RD: a level 14 npc has 27,000gp. A lvl 9 scroll is just a fraction of this. CRB p453 states that leftover gp from a category may be spent on any other category. Because of this it is reasonable for a lvl14 wizard to spend some gold from weapons on something else, like a 9th level scroll.
- Gauss
Tell that to the player whose character was just assassinated. :P
A scroll 3 caster levels higher isnt unreasonable at level 10 why is it unreasonable at level 14?
- Gauss
Even if the only thing the GM got wrong, per the rules, is that the NPC was slightly over-geared?Death by GM fiat is just not fun.
Yes.
A scroll 3 caster levels higher isnt unreasonable at level 10 why is it unreasonable at level 14?
- Gauss
All it takes is 2 rounds to outright kill somebody.
1st Round is Nuke Spell, 2nd Round is Power Word: Kill Scroll. You'd have to spend the party's entire resources of healing in order to counter this, and it's just delaying the inevitable.
Even if an NPC can obtain this spell, they would also have to follow the same rules that PCs have to in terms of it being available for purchase.
Let me ask you; how many merchants at 14th level are going to casually have hundreds of Power Word: Kill Scrolls? Do you know of any 14th level characters running around with Power Word: Kill Scrolls just floating around in their belongings?
It's ridiculous not only in terms of realism/mechanics, but also in terms of balance. You think that it's even realistically fair to throw a Power Word: Kill Scroll at characters that are 4-5 levels below the actual level they can learn the spell, let alone a bunch of them since they appear to be dirt cheap?
"I'm the BBEG, and I have garbage equipment and can't really do anything cool, but I am a big enough d****bag to carry hundreds of these awesome scrolls that make you die instantly. I have +40 UMD, so I can just use the scroll at-will and not fudge it, meaning I just pull out a Scroll, read it, and you all die."
Worst. BBEG. Ever. Not even the Tarrasque compares in terms of how bulls*** he is. (And for you a**hole DMs, take notes. Want to get away with Falling Rocks scenarios without it really being Falling Rocks, then do what I just explained.)
I did not say the NPC would have 10 of these scrolls, I said it is not unreasonable for an NPC to own A (read: one) scroll of a spell that is 3 caster levels higher. After all, PCs do find, buy, steal, whatever scrolls that are higher level. Heck, Paizo APs hand out scrolls that are way more than 3 caster levels higher to PCs.
- Gauss
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I'd just like to note that the question "Would you be pissed?" puts the discussion firmly in the realm of the subjective. Getting pissed about something doesn't have anything much to do with objective facts, or what someone else has done. It's all about the way you react to something.
Which is well demonstrated by the wildly differing views being put forth here. To make a simile, it's like driving. Some people get pissed at slow drivers, some laud them for their mindfulness and sense of responsibility. The slow drivers are not the cause of someone getting pissed, they're the catalyst. Which is entirely different.
So, a completely truthful answer from me would be: I think a GM doing that is perhaps a little on the harsh side, but I'd like to think I could roll with it. Of course in reality it would depend on many other, probably unrelated, factors - did I have a good day at work? Have I eaten dinner yet? Am I best friends with the GM?
Did someone drink all my milk?
9 x 17 x 12.5 gp seems like a reasonable investment into a minion if you are a 17th BBEG Wizard. Less than 2000 gps, a couple days effort (OK, maybe 4), and you can send a minion to assassinate a thorn in your side. Heck, the feat is even free!
But it is kind of a dick move for a GM to just teleport in a minion with greater invisiblity and see invisiblity on, a quickened lightning bolt or disintegrate (possibly via rod), and then read a power word kill a PC while he's in the bath. Especially if there is no relationship between the PC and the BBEG.
If the PC has been thwarting the schemes of the BBEG for several levels, then it MIGHT be expected, if not entirely fair (that's what the 2nd B and the E are for) or fun for the player.
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Having your long time character suddenly snuffed out by a Power Word: Kill spell from the GM? No save, no chance to avoid. Nothing. Just an unceremonious collapse unto death in front of "Enemy Spellcaster A."
No. There are reasons for spells like raise dead. People fighting things of godly power die.
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Scenario: Hypothetical PC/NPC battle (not a "murder in the market" as it were)
Level: Low enough that the party doesn't have 8th-level spells, much less 9th-level spells; coming back from the dead possible, but costly or otherwise highly inconvenient
Enemy: Generic spellcaster (of the faceless stormtrooper variety) with a scroll, not the BBEG and not high enough to cast 9th-level spells in his own right
Rank-and-file casters having in their arsenal such a spell with a group of level low enough to be highly vulnerable to them is bad adventure design, not only something to be be pissed about.
It should be noted that the same caster would probably have to make an appropriate check to cast that spell from a scroll, as he shouldn't be of high level too.
Power Word Kill going awry in your face is a somewhat acceptable risk.
If things are going well, I get about one game and one new pre-made character (which is unlikely to ever see play) each week. So, yeah, it's fair to say I spend more time on these forums than in games. I imagine most people on here fall into that category. :P
I'd be somewhat interested in seeing a demographic of that. Just for knowledge' sake.
So was this the case of a killer DM?
Having your long time character suddenly snuffed out by a Power Word: Kill spell from the GM? No save, no chance to avoid. Nothing. Just an unceremonious collapse unto death in front of "Enemy Spellcaster A."No. There are reasons for spells like raise dead. People fighting things of godly power die.
They weren't fighting a thing of godly power though, which is where the issue comes in. They were fighting something that by all rights would not have had a scroll containing this spell for at least another level or two.
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Having your long time character suddenly snuffed out by a Power Word: Kill spell from the GM? No save, no chance to avoid. Nothing. Just an unceremonious collapse unto death in front of "Enemy Spellcaster A."It shouldn't give you a pissed off feeling... it should make you feel relieved. Never again will you need to play with that particular GM.G&!++$n it, REALLY? You're gonna write off a GM just because he used a spell that the party's caster probably spams like it's going out of style?
I've got news for you, the spell list isn't divided into sections for PCs and NPCs. What's fair for the goose is fair for the gander.
G~@@!+n, I get the feeling some of you guys run away screaming if your 20th level characters encounter anything above a CR 5 challenge.
Amusing rant aside, CyderGnome is absolutely right.
In this example, clearly the GM and the player cannot have fun together. It does not really matter whose fault it is. The answer is still the same : if they cannot find a middle ground, they should stop playing together.
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RD says he is always clear about when his post are hypothetical and when they are real. We shall we which one this falls into when he responds again. For now there is no point in debating the point until he give more info on this real or false scenario. :)Ask and you shall receive.
Scenario: Hypothetical PC/NPC battle (not a "murder in the market" as it were)
Level: Low enough that the party doesn't have 8th-level spells, much less 9th-level spells; coming back from the dead possible, but costly or otherwise highly inconvenient
Enemy: Generic spellcaster (of the faceless stormtrooper variety) with a scroll, not the BBEG and not high enough to cast 9th-level spells in his own rightThere probably is no information to get, This is most likely yet another [one of his posts] where he's figured out another topic guaranteed to [start an interesting discussion]. From what I can see RD spends far more time theorycrafting and building his dream batch leveled concept characters than actually playing.Fixed it for you.
If things are going well, I get about one game and one new pre-made character (which is unlikely to ever see play) each week. So, yeah, it's fair to say I spend more time on these forums than in games. I imagine most people on here fall into that category. :P
An aside, something that bothers me about most of your threads is that you rarely put the context in the first post. It's very misleading and dishonest. Make an effort in the future to put in all the information for your 'scenarios' in the first post please.
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(Also, I want it known that I don't create these kinds of threads just to mess with people, but rather to better gauge appropriate GM behavior and player reactions on a large scale--so as to be a better host in my own games.)
As someone who is sometimes very interested in your threads, and sometimes mightily annoyed, many of us would take you more seriously if you put the whole scenario into the original post. Posting the two-sentence version first is, whether intentional or not, simply "bait" - the hallmark of an troll.
They weren't fighting a thing of godly power though, which is where the issue comes in. They were fighting something that by all rights would not have had a scroll containing this spell for at least another level or two.Having your long time character suddenly snuffed out by a Power Word: Kill spell from the GM? No save, no chance to avoid. Nothing. Just an unceremonious collapse unto death in front of "Enemy Spellcaster A."No. There are reasons for spells like raise dead. People fighting things of godly power die.
My bad. I was responding to the post in my response. The post I was responding to was a rather generic and general sort of question.
I'll look at the rest of it when I wake up and revise based on new info.
If the group has been tipped off to expect such powerful necromancy (and can be prepared for it) then no, I wouldn't be pissed. It was my fault for not being properly warded.
If the group had no way of knowing that this nobody mook npc was toting around 9th-level death? Yeah, I'd be pretty miffed.
My own reaction would depend on what happened right before the scroll use. Was a fight already in progess? Was the group in some kind of negotiation and the NPC pulled out the scroll to "provide his master's terms." For me, it all depends on context.
A friend once ran a long campaign that took my buddy's monk and my rogue from 1st to 14th level. It was a great, immersive game and I loved my character. One day, we ran across a sphinx and we had a classic riddle duel. We came up with a riddle the sphinx couldn't figure out. In turn, the sphinx scratched a drawing on a nearby tree. My rogue looked at it first and was immediately slain by a symbol of death. The monk killed the sphinx in retribution. The rogue had cut ties with the region's church so there was no friendly source to raise him. My last memory of events was standing in a misty area and being approached by a shadowy figure who offered to bring him back. The figure's malevolence was palpable, so my rogue declined, telling the figure "I'll find my own way back." before stepping into the mist.
It may seem like an ignominious end but it was actually very satisfying for the character, who spent his career being manipulated by different parties Machiavellian schemes. He preferred death to becoming someone eles's pawn.
It's all about context.
Yes a fight is in progress (everyone aware, nobody flat-footed). No there was no indication that such powerful magic was going to appear (it's just another cultist or something). Yes, there was an indication of forthcoming danger prior to the fight ("let's go root out those cultists").
An aside, something that bothers me about most of your threads is that you rarely put the context in the first post. It's very misleading and dishonest. Make an effort in the future to put in all the information for your 'scenarios' in the first post please.
Most of the time, these threads come to me in the spur of the moment, and I've rarely thought out the scenario in full at the time of the first post's writing.
I'll work at adding a little more forethought and detail into the first post of future threads.
RD says he is always clear about when his post are hypothetical and when they are real. We shall we which one this falls into when he responds again. For now there is no point in debating the point until he give more info on this real or false scenario. :)Ask and you shall receive.
Scenario: Hypothetical PC/NPC battle (not a "murder in the market" as it were)
Level: Low enough that the party doesn't have 8th-level spells, much less 9th-level spells; coming back from the dead possible, but costly or otherwise highly inconvenient
Enemy: Generic spellcaster (of the faceless stormtrooper variety) with a scroll, not the BBEG and not high enough to cast 9th-level spells in his own rightThere probably is no information to get, This is most likely yet another [one of his posts] where he's figured out another topic guaranteed to [start an interesting discussion]. From what I can see RD spends far more time theorycrafting and building his dream batch leveled concept characters than actually playing.Fixed it for you.
If things are going well, I get about one game and one new pre-made character (which is unlikely to ever see play) each week. So, yeah, it's fair to say I spend more time on these forums than in games. I imagine most people on here fall into that category. :P
That level should be more specific. Not having 8th level spells is not good enough IHMO.
If he can afford the scroll within NPC wealth guidelines then I don't see an issue with it. I mean he has to make the UMD check to use the scroll so he is taking a risk that the spell might not even go off.
According to the NPC creation rules, NPCs should not have expendable magic items, such as scrolls, of 9th-level spells until they are level 17 or thereabouts.
That means the earliest you should expect this without GM finagling is around level 16, where you would be regularly facing CR 16 encounters.
Probably safe to say the caster mook got the scroll from the BBEG, but since you could normally cast 8th-level spells at level 16, it's coming out of the blue a little early in this particular scenario.
(Also, I want it known that I don't create these kinds of threads just to mess with people, but rather to better gauge appropriate GM behavior and player reactions on a large scale--so as to be a better host in my own games.)
That is not true.
Limited Use: Items that fall into this category include alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands with few charges. Charged wondrous items fall into this grouping as well.
There is a chart here
RD says he is always clear about when his post are hypothetical and when they are real. We shall we which one this falls into when he responds again. For now there is no point in debating the point until he give more info on this real or false scenario. :)Only when he is cornered on it. In this case the Op certainly wasn't clear.
Since this depends HEAVILY on the facts and circumstances (and we have none of either) then there can be no answer. It's not even a good hypothetical.
I actually only said that because he has said it before. It was more of a reminder for him than anyone else. :)
I would be upset.
I put a lot of time into this character.
On the other hand I would get over it after a while (probably about the time I recover from being raised) and wouldn't take it out on the GM...
...Unless it was a direct provocation against me as a player. Yes I have played under GMs that would strike me dead on the spot. But those aren't game issues. Those are social dynamic issues. And having a GM who strikes you dead (no roll or save) because you criticized his continuity errors is just sad.