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Still spell is now utterly useless?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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I saw a thread a while ago where if was argued that even a silent stilled spells people notice when you are casting.

And with the recent clarification of SKR caster can cast any kind of spells while grappled (not only the ones without somatic components)

So I really do not see any use of still spell, I am missing something?


12 people marked this as a favorite.

You know, I'm starting to get tired of clarifications...


Do you have a link to any of this? Or is this your assumption from memory. (Which could be slightly wrong.)


Casting while holding objects in your hands.

So no, it's not utterly useless.

Scarab Sages

The only use I see for still spell currently is avoiding the ASF if casting while wearing armor.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Do you have a link to any of this? Or is this your assumption from memory. (Which could be slightly wrong.)

Jason's post on how there'd still be a spellcraft check allowed.

"no somatic in grapple" was a legacy of how grapple worked in 3.5.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Do you have a link to any of this? Or is this your assumption from memory. (Which could be slightly wrong.)

I do not have the quote for the silent and stilled spell but

http://paizo.com/threads/gbikg5nd/favorites?Grapple-and-Spellcasting-re-Som atic-Components

"I pointed out to Jason that the no-somatic text only appears in the rules on concentration, not on grapple, and is a legacy of when grapple was a whole-body thing instead of a just-an-arm thing. The no-somatic rule is being errata'd out of the game, it shouldn't have been left in."

EDIT: ninjaded by 26 seconds.


hogarth wrote:
You know, I'm starting to get tired of clarifications...

You don't like that there is less of a feat and spell slot tax for this now?


Cheapy wrote:
hogarth wrote:
You know, I'm starting to get tired of clarifications...
You don't like that there isn't a feat and spell slot tax for this now?

it reduces the ussefulness of grapple, so I see whay hogarth do not like it.


Ah yes. I was coming at it from the wrong perspective. Ah hah! Freedom of Movement isn't so important now for casters worried about being grappled.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Alternatively, one less line in the book means 1 more line for the monk changes :p

I'm going to find a positive way to spin this no matter what..


Nicos wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
hogarth wrote:
You know, I'm starting to get tired of clarifications...
You don't like that there isn't a feat and spell slot tax for this now?
it reduces the ussefulness of grapple, so I see whay hogarth do not like it.

First off thanks for the links Cheapy and Nicos.

"Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell."

They still have to make a concentration check if grappled.

Also even with those changes Pinned wouldn't change.

Pinned:
Pinned

A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Still Spell also helps with Arcane Spell Failure.


Paralysis, anyone?


Cheapy wrote:
hogarth wrote:
You know, I'm starting to get tired of clarifications...
You don't like that there is less of a feat and spell slot tax for this now?

To be fair, I didn't read this particular clarification.

To be unfair, that's because I was turned off by the previous 6 clarifications that I read.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Was Still Spell ever about making magic subtle? I always though it was for avoiding ASF, casting while tied up, and that sort of thing.

I am sad that Pathfinder has no mechanic for disguising spellcasting, but that's another topic.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

2 people marked this as a favorite.
ryric wrote:
I am sad that Pathfinder has no mechanic for disguising spellcasting, but that's another topic.

Not going to derail the thread either, but I agree.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
ryric wrote:

Was Still Spell ever about making magic subtle? I always though it was for avoiding ASF, casting while tied up, and that sort of thing.

I am sad that Pathfinder has no mechanic for disguising spellcasting, but that's another topic.

There is this

Secret Signs:
Secret Signs

You are particularly adept at communicating with others via innuendo, gestures, and secret hand signs.

Prerequisite: Int 13.

Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to pass secret messages. In addition, you are adept at hiding the somatic components of spellcasting. If you cast a spell that has only somatic components, an observer must make a Perception check opposed by your Sleight of Hand check to notice your spellcasting. Spellcraft checks made to identify any spell you cast that has somatic components take a –2 penalty.

There might be others i just did a quick check.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ryric wrote:
I am sad that Pathfinder has no mechanic for disguising spellcasting, but that's another topic.

Spellsong.


There is also a way for bards to disguise spell casting within a performance. While I like these feats in certain contexts (illusions and enchantments) I wish they had made it a universal rule in regards to the Bluff skill instead.

Silver Crusade

Lab_Rat wrote:
There is also a way for bards to disguise spell casting within a performance.

What is this way?

In 3.5 there was a skill trick (conceal spellcasting) and a feat aimed at bards (Disguise Spell). What's in PF?


Cheapy wrote:

Ah yes. I was coming at it from the wrong perspective. Ah hah! Freedom of Movement isn't so important now for casters worried about being grappled.

It's a good erratum that makes sense, so I'm glad it's being introduced to the game. On a personal note, it sadly invalidates the coolest thing I received in the Grand Convocation at Paizocon (my choice of free 1st or 2nd level metamagic on a 1st through 4th level cleric spell; I chose Still Spell on Freedom of Movement). I doubt I can get a rebuild on that boon though.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
There is also a way for bards to disguise spell casting within a performance.

What is this way?

In 3.5 there was a skill trick (conceal spellcasting) and a feat aimed at bards (Disguise Spell). What's in PF?

Evil Lincoln wrote:
ryric wrote:
I am sad that Pathfinder has no mechanic for disguising spellcasting, but that's another topic.
Spellsong.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Yep.

I don't think concealed casting should be exclusive to bards, but I am okay with them being the best at it.

My favored explanation for stilled, silent spells is the "swirling magical rune" rule. If you look in Pathfinder art, casters always have swirling magical runes surrounding their hands when they cast. I figure these persist even when the spell is silenced and stilled.

You could tack on yet another metamagic to conceal just the runes, but I think it would be best to have a +3 level metamagic that took care of all visible and audible spellcasting evidence, including the lingering aura. That way we don't have to worry about some loophole in the rules. "Hidden Spell" (+3) perhaps?

Bards would still be best at concealed casting, because Spellsong is better than that. But it would be a nice tool to have in the box, I think.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
hogarth wrote:
You know, I'm starting to get tired of clarifications...
You don't like that there isn't a feat and spell slot tax for this now?
it reduces the ussefulness of grapple, so I see whay hogarth do not like it.

First off thanks for the links Cheapy and Nicos.

"Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell."

They still have to make a concentration check if grappled.

Also even with those changes Pinned wouldn't change.

** spoiler omitted **

Still Spell also helps with Arcane Spell Failure.

Well i do not want to derail my own thread but it is not the same but before the wizard were forrced to cast dimension door to scape the grapple now they can just target the grappler so it is not the same.

but cheapy and arthantos have pointed two uses of still spell(Rods of still have only one use though). so the question in the title of the thread is already answered

Silver Crusade

Thankyou. : )

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.

*shrug* It's always been that way.

Anyway, paralysis, polymorph, being bound, restrained, ASF, missing a limb... lots of different situational reasons.

Old line from a G.I. Joe Comic

Shipwreck: We don't need a fireman, we're in the ocean!
Barbeque: Ayup, everyone says that. Until their house is on fire.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nicos wrote:

I saw a thread a while ago where if was argued that even a silent stilled spells people notice when you are casting.

And with the recent clarification of SKR caster can cast any kind of spells while grappled (not only the ones without somatic components)

So I really do not see any use of still spell, I am missing something?

You're missing that the primary purpose of still spell is not to sneak cast spells. It's used to...

1. Bypass the Arcane Spell Failure chance due to armor

2. Cast spells while otherwise immobilisers, pinned, (and gagged in the case of silent) or some other condition which prevents normal gestures.

3. Cast spells while your hands are full.

4. Preserve the use of capstones for Eldritch Knights

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Nicos wrote:
(Rods of still have only one use though)

Nitpick: Rods of Still Spell don't exist unless you custom make them. Probably because it doesn't make much sense to have to get a rod out and wave it around in order to not move to cast.


ryric wrote:
Nicos wrote:
(Rods of still have only one use though)
Nitpick: Rods of Still Spell don't exist unless you custom make them. Probably because it doesn't make much sense to have to get a rod out and wave it around in order to not move to cast.

I stand corrected.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I like the swirling runes explanation. It's evocative and cool.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm not too into the swirling runes explanation since it is never mentioned in the books (as much as I love the flavor).

In fact, there is a section in the rules that specifically talks about what targets of a spell with no visible presence feel when they make their saving throws. If casting a spell sent runes flying around everywhere then this would almost never happen.

Then again, maybe I'm biased because I have a character who has been making liberal use of Silent+Stilled Charm Person ;)

Silver Crusade

So still spell is a useless feat for a cleric (the idea had been to be able to cast freedom of movement while grappled/paralysed/entangled/held).

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mrs Camelot wrote:
So still spell is a useless feat for a cleric (the idea had been to be able to cast freedom of movement while grappled/paralysed/entangled/held).

Why did you necro a 3 year old thread to say that?


ryric wrote:
Nicos wrote:
(Rods of still have only one use though)
Nitpick: Rods of Still Spell don't exist unless you custom make them. Probably because it doesn't make much sense to have to get a rod out and wave it around in order to not move to cast.

Only in PF, you didn't have to hold it in 3.5.


Still spell is great if you're a vampire.


Mrs Camelot wrote:
So still spell is a useless feat for a cleric (the idea had been to be able to cast freedom of movement while grappled/paralysed/entangled/held).

Is that a question?

You don't need Still Spell to cast while grappled or entangled - as long as you can pass a Concentration check.
You would need it to cast while pinned or paralysed.

Note the full component list of FoM, though:
V, S, M (a leather strip bound to the target), DF
So you'd need to keep a leather strip bound to yourself permanently - that should be possible. You'd need to keep a divine focus attached to yourself permanently - there are certainly ways to do this, such as wearing the Cassock of the Clergy. The Verbal components would be impossible while paralysed - you'd need Silent Spell I suppose? - but possible while Pinned.


7 people marked this as a favorite.
hogarth wrote:
You know, I'm starting to get tired of clarifications...

Hello from the future. They've only gotten worse...

Shadow Lodge

5 people marked this as a favorite.
hogarth wrote:
You know, I'm starting to get tired of clarifications...

I wonder how you feel now, after three more years of them...


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Holy simultaneous posting, batman.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Pinned, paralyzed, tied up, entangled (whoa, not entangled? Probably an oversight). Plenty of advantages.

Personally, I'd let Still and Silent spells go without Spellcraft. The only reason not to is to make those stupid "Let's rule out options by making a feat for it" feats work. ;P

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nicos wrote:

I saw a thread a while ago where if was argued that even a silent stilled spells people notice when you are casting.

And with the recent clarification of SKR caster can cast any kind of spells while grappled (not only the ones without somatic components)

So I really do not see any use of still spell, I am missing something?

It's for casting spells in armor with no worry of spell failure, or when you're tied up or otherwise immobolised and can't make somatic gestures. Stealth casting was not at the top of it's design list.


Pinning happens a lot to NPC casters, especially bosses. Still Spell can mean the difference between a dead monk and a dead mage.


Mrs Camelot wrote:
So still spell is a useless feat for a cleric (the idea had been to be able to cast freedom of movement while grappled/paralysed/entangled/held).

I don't know about that, but you can always be a Cleric with the Liberation Domain for some really cool Freedom of Movement Domain Powers if that's your thing!

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Neat necro.

Well, there is now this:

Cunning Caster:
Cunning Caster
Whether a smuggler or spy, you’ve learned to use misdirection and legerdemain to conceal your own magical abilities.
Prerequisites: Deceitful, ability to cast 1st-level spells.
Benefit: When casting a spell, you can attempt a Bluff check (opposed by observers’ Perception checks) to conceal your actions from onlookers. If the spell requires material components, you take a –4 penalty on the Bluff check. If the spell requires somatic components, you take a –4 penalty on the Bluff check. If the spell requires verbal components, you take a –4 penalty on the Bluff check. If the spell requires a focus or divine focus, you take a –4 penalty on the Bluff check. If the spell produces an obvious effect (such as a summoned creature or visible spell effect), you take a –4 penalty on the Bluff check, and even if your check is successful, observers still see the spell effect (though they fail to notice that you are responsible for it). All Bluff check penalties are cumulative.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Neat necro.

Well, there is now this:
** spoiler omitted **

Where is that from?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Paulicus wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Neat necro.

Well, there is now this:
** spoiler omitted **

Where is that from?

Mostly likely the Dirty tricks Toolbox... along with the awesome Dirty Fighting Feat :P


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I need the feat for my deaf cursed oracle witch build using shadow projection as my super saipan attack form.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's a s!~@ feat. Shouldn't have any penalties.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, the casters should be able to ignore another drawback with their expendable feats easily.

Wait, that isn't how these boards usually roll...

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