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An honest question


Pathfinder Online

Taldor RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I like video games and I like Pathfinder. I've been vaguely glancing at updates discussed in this forum for the PFO game. There's a question lurking in my head that I'm hoping someone who is better informed can answer for me.

How is this upcoming game actually a Pathfinder game? It doesn't seem like it's going to use the PF rules. Abilities will refresh more quickly and level advancement will be less dramatic. It almost certainly won't use the d20 rule set. So are we just having PF labels on things? I assume a PFO paladin will wear heavy armor and "smite evil" and "lay on hands" but all of those abilities will be different than their tabletop counterparts.

Tabletop PF is also a very PvE experience for most people. Generally most people play cooperatively versus the AP/GM's plot. While the PvP emphasis may be fun and make for exciting and engaging combat, it doesn't really capture the essence of what Pathfinder is really about, for me. I have enjoyed PvP in other MMOs so please don't take this as a knock on PvP gaming in general. To me, a MMO with long PvE questlines ("adventure paths", if you will) would be more representative of the PF experience.

As far as I can tell, we basically have a game where the races and classes will vaguely resemble their tabletop counterparts, and is set on Golarion. In no other way will it actually be an electronic version of Pathfinder. Is that an accurate assessment? Basically I'm asking what makes this a Pathfinder experience and not just Eve or GW set on Golarion?

Goblin Squad Member

ryric wrote:


As far as I can tell, we basically have a game where the races and classes will vaguely resemble their tabletop counterparts, and is set on Golarion. In no other way will it actually be an electronic version of Pathfinder. Is that an accurate assessment? Basically I'm asking what makes this a Pathfinder experience and not just Eve or GW set on Golarion?

Well many parts are more closely related to the pathfinder type rules set than most games, IE the stamina system revolving around 6 seconds, the fact that while abilities do come faster, it still is closer to a daily type of system than any other MMO has really dabbled.

But the key is Golarion is what makes something pathfinder. Same reason why pathfinder tales isn't intently set on mirroring the tabletop rules set within the context of a book. Pathfinder is a setting, and a rules set, while drawing some inspiration from parts of the rules, pathfinder online is primarally about the setting.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
ryric wrote:
How is this upcoming game actually a Pathfinder game?

Ryan says this better than I will be able to, but in essence, the Pathfinder universe exists (in our imaginations) entirely separately from the rules that define how we interact with it. PFRPG is one way to experience that universe. Pathfinder Novels are another. PFO will be yet another.

Goblin Squad Member

This is discussed in the Thornkeep pdf really well actually. A threadbare summary (loses the creative explanation but is succinct):

1. Fantasy RP is well represented by Pathfinder system amongst others, ie as Nihimon says rule-system for the imagination.
2. This involves GMs and TBC and a small group of adventurers whereas MMOs involve computer programming (instead of GM's/PCs imagination) and many more players is the fundamental change, in real-time.

Thornkeep, p.73 wrote:

Other rules from the tabletop gaming

experience just don’t work in an electronic game. The turnbased
combat system was among the first to go. “The idea that
a couple of hundred people might be left waiting while one
person dithers over an action that takes 6 seconds to resolve
just didn’t make sense,” says Dancey.
In most cases, however, Pathfinder RPG rules weren’t
preserved or cut in their entirety. Instead, the designers made
calculated choices, altering rules to varying degrees “to capture
the feel of the tabletop rules, if not the actual mechanics.

3. They're keeping Abilities and Alignment from Pathfinder as systems that are viable in both forms.

Thornkeep, p.72-3 wrote:

“We knew that we wanted to use the alignment

system,” says Dancey, “giving players an ethical
background composed of their attitudes toward law
and chaos, good and evil. We also wanted to quantify
characters using core attributes immediately
recognizable to everyone who has played the
tabletop game.”

4. The background and artists are consulting via Paizo to visually represent and be consistent with previous such style.

There's a ton more discussion on this in the Thornkeep book.

In terms of not Pathfinder -> MMORPG, but MMORPG -> Pathfinder; the game is set to be 4 pillars: (1) Adventure, (2) Exploration, (3) Development, (4) Dominion. So the first 2 are good fits with RPG (party group), but the second 2 add context to this gameplay (eg Kingdoms: Many players). Adventure involves Dungeons and the map and mobs etc, but that also feeds into the "wider world" of eg resources that fund the adventurers for further equipment and expeditions.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think I like the 'interface' explaination myself.

I mean, when I see a rendered Goblin, I know it's a Pathfinder Goblin. Not an Eberron Goblin, or a Greyhawk Goblin. It's a Pathfinder goblin running towards me with a tor-

AHHHHHHHH GET IT OFF GET IT OFF GET IT OFF!!!

Goblin Squad Member

But PFO is also Pathfinder (and D20) in design terms as well.

A lot of the concepts from TT are in PFO: the core 11 roles (classes), weapon types (blunt, vorpal, etc.), class features and feats (sneak attack, detect evil, etc.), auras, alignment, rounds (abstracted as a 6-second stamina pool), the six basic attributes, multi-classing vs. pure character builds, and so on. The particular instantiations of these concepts will be adaptions by necessity, but there's a lot of familiar game concepts in PFO.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

It's not a secret that there's a Pathfindet Adventure Card Game in the pipeline. I imagine that it is "Pathfinder" in the same sense that the novels and miniatures are-- art direction, setting, and some characters.

Bards being able to improve both speech making (perform: oratory) and lie detecting (sense motive) with a masterwork lectern (via a class feature) is not required in everything which is Pathfinder.

Taldor RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

It being Pathfinder in the same sense the novels are pretty much answers my question. I tend to see Pathfinder as being the game engine and Golarion as being the setting, which is where this query came from. If I expand my conception to include the setting the discord mostly disappears.

Goblin Squad Member

These quotes from Ryan are useful also (sans reply-context):

Clipping:

Quote:

The Pathfinder intellectual property is built around conflict. Many of the deities in the Pathfinder pantheon are at odds with, and actively seek to confront and destroy the minions of their brethren. There are humanoid organizations similarly at odds, like the Pathfinder Society and the Aspis Consortium. Conflict, including physical combat, is not only common in the Pathfinder IP, it's an important pillar of the forces that drive the drama in the Golarion setting.

The only difference between what we're doing in Pathfinder Online and what happens in other expressions of the Pathfinder IP is that all of the people involved in the conflicts are players.

And:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Instead of a game that JUST has adventurers, this game is bigger. Much bigger. It has all sorts of people in it who would, in a traditional tabletop RPG, be NPCs. But in Pathfinder Online, those characters are real people.

And what's better, those real people want to make content for you to consume. Helping them achieve their goals opens doorways for you to achieve yours.

The defining features of Pathinder Online are:

* Exploration
* Adventure
* Development
* Domination

Of those 4, the only thing you get in a traditional tabletop RPG is Adventure. (You might think there's exploration, but it's an illusion. The physical space you "explore" is effectively Adventure content except in very rare cases like Kingmaker, and even then your exploration is mostly just revealing Adventure content.

In the MMO, you get access to all 4 features. Which doesn't diminish in any way the amount of Adventure content you get. The other three aspects of the game enhance that Adventure content.

They make it meaningfull. Other real people will be affected by what happens when you adventure. Stir up an Orc horde and real people will be hurt - unless you can smash it. Unchain a demon and souls will be corrupted - unless you figure out how to destroy it. Wake a dragon, and the hillsides burn - unless you are capable of becoming a Dragonslayer.

They make it persistent. Others will find the husks of the orc village - or the smoking ruins of the nearby Settlement. Even after a demon is destroyed, the taint of its evil may linger. And who knows what powerful - and dangerous - treasure you could recover from a dragon's horde, and what further adventures might spawn from that discovery?

They make it fulfilling. Other real people will hate you for your failings, or love you for your successes. Like ripples from a stone thrown into a pond, your actions will resonate, reverberate, and echo across the land. Who knows how many lives you'll touch? Far more than a traditional small group of friends you might throw dice with, to be certain. The sense of accomplishment, magnified by the response of the community, is awesomely rewarding. It's a rush like no other.Source

So it's an opportunity potentially (number of people), but that's also it's biggest challenge, to build a community as interesting and friendly to interact with as you find in the RPG experience. That's definitely my experience from back when I last played DnD compared to the "difficulties" with online game communities.

Goblin Squad Member

Like the others have said; Pathfinder is the setting. How that setting is presented is flexible.

Star Wars is not just movies, but it also includes games, cartoons, novels, comics, toys, models.... It's all Star Wars, it's just presented differently.

Taldor RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

So here's another question. I'll admit that PvP clashing over territory and resources doesn't interest me that much. However, I get the impression that some of the available player conflict may go deeper than that - what if a player finds the orc tribe and wants to recruit them to ravage the territory of his enemies? What if I want to summon a herald of a dark god and let it loose upon the land(or of a good god either, for that matter)? Will evil PCs be able to create AP-like plot for good PCs to tackle? Can PCs be major villains without being griefers, but by simply hatching evil plots that need stopping? That sort of stuff would be awesome but I'm not sure we have the capability to have that level of freeform PC-driven plot.

Goblin Squad Member

ryric wrote:
Can PCs be major villains without being griefers, but by simply hatching evil plots that need stopping?

Explore this.

The way I see this happening is PCs setting themselves up as, in effect, quest-givers who are giving quests to other PCs to do things like poison town wells, or burn crops, or even just attack a town. PFOs Contract system might very well support all of that.

Would that be griefing? (( I don't think so... ))

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
ryric wrote:
Can PCs be major villains without being griefers, but by simply hatching evil plots that need stopping?

Explore this.

The way I see this happening is PCs setting themselves up as, in effect, quest-givers who are giving quests to other PCs to do things like poison town wells, or burn crops, or even just attack a town. PFOs Contract system might very well support all of that.

Would that be griefing? (( I don't think so... ))

I would not see this as griefing as long as the evil person is willing to compensate the person (or persons) that follow through on the crop burning and so forth. Its another layer added to the game IMO.

just like that good aligned players will steer clear of the 'evil bad guys lands' so they won't be attacked or they themselves will try to invade it to take back the old widows farmland from him.

Pretty much its a more overt way of being evil instead of a thieves guild asking the innkeep for 'protection' money.

Goblin Squad Member

ryric wrote:
So here's another question. I'll admit that PvP clashing over territory and resources doesn't interest me that much. However, I get the impression that some of the available player conflict may go deeper than that - what if a player finds the orc tribe and wants to recruit them to ravage the territory of his enemies? What if I want to summon a herald of a dark god and let it loose upon the land(or of a good god either, for that matter)? Will evil PCs be able to create AP-like plot for good PCs to tackle? Can PCs be major villains without being griefers, but by simply hatching evil plots that need stopping? That sort of stuff would be awesome but I'm not sure we have the capability to have that level of freeform PC-driven plot.

Honestly that sounds very much like what has been implied for the game in terms of evil as well as in terms of enemies and things being turned into weapons of war

Goblin Squad Member

ryric wrote:
Can PCs be major villains without being griefers, but by simply hatching evil plots that need stopping?

I largely think the difference between being "evil" in terms of RP, and being a griefer is that a griefer is actively seeking to frustrate others, to diminish the enjoyment they receive from the game.

I'll use an example from an old game I played. A clan known as "The Lord Clan" set themselves up in the most major trade hub of the game we were playing. They declared it their territory, and that any coming through it had to pay them a tax. You either pay the tax of they kill you.

The tax was actually pretty reasonable. Something that barely cut into your profits and they even scaled it down based on how much cargo you had so that newbs were not impacted much by it either. They even didn't a pretty good job protecting those who paid it from pirates.

For the traders of the game their fun was not majorly impacted. Those who could simply not deal with losing their cargo just paid the tax. Those like me who were too stubborn to pay... the conflicts between GL and Lords which I refer to as The Lord Wars were the most fun I have ever had in any game. They lasted years, and they were server wide wars for the most part. I'll never forget fighting Lords outside Planet New Berlin for hours on end, or slipping my precious cargo past their tax collectors into the relative safety of the Dresden system.

In PFO I would like to see bandits demand (reasonable) tolls as opposed to just killing everyone they see and taking their goods. I would like to see wars fought where the hostilities don't extend to the meta game. I would like to see necromancers practicing their craft, and paladins hunting them for it.

I would also like to add that were bandits to start tolling a trade route, clearing that road would not be near as high on GL's priority list as dealing with bandits who are killing everyone they see, or people camping newb spawns. Not saying we won't come fight you. But I am saying we wouldn't focus on you as much, or use nearly as harsh of tactics when we did as we do against griefers. Well, unless the toll were unreasonably high or you didn't let people who paid it pass peacefully 100% of the time.

Goblin Squad Member

ryric wrote:
Can PCs be major villains without being griefers, but by simply hatching evil plots that need stopping?

I would almost be sure of it, simply because I've seen that exact thing played out in MUDS/MUSH'S and other venues that offered far less mechanical support for it then PFO is aiming to do.

"Griefers" (IMO) have absolutely nothing to do with playing "villains" or not..... they really aren't even playing the same game that the rest of us are....thier goal is to wreck the enjoyment of the other PLAYERS of the game...and that's often more by being major annoyances then anything else.

"Villains" both major and minor can often significantly enhance the enjoyment of the game, just as when a GM plays them. "Villains" exist within the game world and have specific goals, agenda's and personality traits that they fullfill within the game world...but they don't have any sort of goals in relation to the PLAYERS controling other characters in the world.

I really think the key to playing a "Villain" in that context is to have some sensitivity to the other players behind the characters in the world and have some sense of judgement of where it's appropriate to "draw the line". Even if they go ahead and do something that they know makes another player upset, a simple whispered "no hard feelings" can make a world of difference as to the other players experience of the day.

It's kinda the difference between a player that beats the heck out of you during a sports game then dances around trash-talking and taunting you after the game and a player that beats the heck out of you during a sports game and then lines up to shake your hand and pat you on the back after the game.

Goblin Squad Member

There is going to be a lot of confusion between griefing and being an evil character. truly evil characters won't be stupid, they won't be the ones setting up ambushes in lawful territory, they won't take the risk that leads to little rewards. Theses characters will also not pursue you constantly killing you, they may do it a few times, but more than that has little meaning, if you pissed someone off, they will probably get an assassination contract on you. An evil character is less likely to go camp lower 'level' zones, and if they do, it will be to kill the protectors that are similar in 'level' to the evil character.

There will be people who ambush everyone who crosses their hideout.

There will be people who kill everyone they think they can on-sight.

There will be people that kill everyone that comes into 'their territory'

There will be organizations who build up until they can take over other's territory.

As the game grows, the percentage of RP players will slowly decline(RP-pvp is one of the smallest categories in the market), and there will be less people that want to 'play villains' for others enjoyment, and more people who want to 'be villains' for their own enjoyment.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think "evil" is the correct counterpoint to "griefer"--evil is an alignment mechanic in PFO. I think the contrast is between being an "adversary" and being a griefer, and the answer is pretty obviously yes, since we'll all be acting as adversaries. So if there's a group of players organized as an Aspis Consortium outpost, and they are opposed by a group of Eagle Knights, there well might be all kinds of violent interactions and oppositional relationships between them, but who's the hero and who's the adversary?

Taldor RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

See, the RP-style PvP is much more interesting to me than factions fighting constantly over territory.

Here's a scenario I'd like to be possible:
Fairly cliche concept: fledgling necromancer who seeks immortality through lichdom. Could a player make a PC wizard with the goal of becoming a powerful undead? As he gains power, he creates for himself an isolated wilderness tower and fills it with traps, undead, and other hazards. Perhaps he has to do things to achieve his lichdom that good aligned characters might object to and try to stop, like ritually killing a friendly village. Basically, this player is doing all the things that traditional fantasy heroes would want to stop.

I just wonder at the ability of a player to create plot like this - I've never seen a computer game freeform enough that a player could just up and decide "I think I'll go summon a demon and bargain with it for power today." Often villains have access to powers and templates traditionally off limtis to PCs.

Is it griefing if a PC cleric of Rovagug spends months questing to release a Spawn and lets it loose in a civilized area to wreak havoc on low level players and NPCs? How would the good guys even know the cleric was doing this to try and stop him?

Goblin Squad Member

I'd love to see devs have dev-controlled NPCs/Monsters... or a few, trustworthy players. It would give that sort of RP flavor directly to players.

By comparison the system of Alignment eg of evil-aligned vs good-aligned is dependent on flagging and measuring your actions in different contexts so it guides who and how you interact with, and how you SHOULD react/interact with, I think!

Goblin Squad Member

Put into another light, there's really no reason two Lawful Good organizations can't fight over who's got the rights to a certain section of the map, once all diplomacy and negotiations have failed. Neither is Evil, or even necessarily in the wrong. Neither would be griefing.

Conflict, and supplying others with opposition and adversity will be one of the primary "things players do". if that extends to the manipulation of "higher scale" mechanics like alignment, all the better. If any organization with proper resources and dedicated talent is capable of manipulating some huge engine of war, be it a dragon, angel, demon or elemental, then that would be triple awesome.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm pretty sure Ryan has said that there will not be anything along the lines of 'controlled NPC's'

@Ryric

You are talking about things that will be momentousness efforts, and long term goals. Players won't be creating 'plots' they will simply be 'living' in the world. I don't see your example as specifically RP, and us non-RP players don't just fight over territory. An up and coming necromancer would be a ripe target for any player who is pursuing a good alignment. And an alpha-class type achievement like becoming a lich would entail forcing the character into scenarios that put them against their opposition. I don't have to be RPing 'good' to not want an 'evil' lich in the game world. I would like to see a handful of alpha class achievements, and they would be things that take lots of time and cooperation(paying others to help you) to achieve. But a lot of people are opposed to alpha classes.

I would imagine anything of any serious magnitude will not be remotely easy to do quietly and probably impossible to do alone. Solo play is not something GW is really taking into consideration, everything is about maximizing human interactions, and your examples seem to be focused on solo endeavors.

Don't expect the epicness of late PF:PnP characters, It has been stated that the game will play out like the middle to upper middle of the level range in the PnP.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
ryric wrote:
How is this upcoming game actually a Pathfinder game?
Ryan says this better than I will be able to, but in essence, the Pathfinder universe exists (in our imaginations) entirely separately from the rules that define how we interact with it. PFRPG is one way to experience that universe. Pathfinder Novels are another. PFO will be yet another.

Ironically you ended up saying it very well.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh, stop... you'll make me blush :)

CEO, Goblinworks

ryric wrote:
an isolated wilderness tower

You should expect that any structure you create gets seen by hundreds of other characters daily even in points furthest from the busiest population centers.

Goblin Squad Member

@Ryric,

I can think of alot of scenario's in which you could play a "villian" outside of the straightforward PvP territory control aspects...

- You could "corrupt" an individual by offering them wealth, power, etc in order to get them to betray thier Kingdom.

- You could hire an Assasin to assasinate a prominant member of the settlement and then try to plant evidence or spread rumors that the deed was performed at the behest of an innocent third party, thereby wrongfully discrediting that 3rd party, sowing discord and possibly even starting a conflict.

- You could try to position yourself as a "neutral mediator" in a diplomatic dispute between 2 player organizations, acting as a go between and then purposefully sabotage the negotiations, causing conflict and possibly war.

- You could set yourself up under the guise of a "legitimate merchant" and then act as an agent for bandits, feeding them the information you aquired from your merchantile dealing about the coming and going of caravans or even adventuring parties so that the bandits could raid them.

- If you were a very successfull merchant you might be able to setup a situation where you manipulated resources in such a manor as to purposefully destabilize the economy in a particular area.

- We haven't learned all that much about the role of religion a dieties in the game, but I'd be willing to bet you could set yourself up as a leader of an Evil religious cult and try to attract followers, thereby increasing the dominance of a particular Evil God in a specific area.

- You might not be able to control/create monsters directly, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were ways you could indirectly increase the prevelence and threat posed by them (maybe by harrasing adventurers that went out to try to destroy them) in a specific location...thus bringing hard times on nearby player settlements.

These are just a few of the possibilties I could think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are plenty of others...and most of them seem pretty feasable within the context of the mechanics already described for PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

To get ready for online play our GM is going to recruit another group who's sole purpose is to grief us.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
ryric wrote:
an isolated wilderness tower
You should expect that any structure you create gets seen by hundreds of other characters daily even in points furthest from the busiest population centers.

Ryan, I had been under the impression that it would be possible to build "concealed" outposts. Bandit caves is the obvious one, but I would have thought 'ye olde necromantic lair' would also have been possible.

Thinking about it of course, it's problematic since there's bound to be players who choose to specialise in finding things that have been designed to be hidden and it also ties into other concepts that had been discussed in terms of game world size and the appearance of an empty landscape.

But this is at odds with some early design briefs that mentioned 'dangerous remote areas'. If an area is being traversed by hundreds of players a day, can it really be considered that dangerous or remote? If you could clarify what that means or if anything has changed that would be awesome.

Goblin Squad Member

The only thing we have been told is that hideouts will be concealed. And they will not be possible to see, you have to know the correct point in space to go to to access the hideout.

CEO, Goblinworks

Concealed buildings aren't reasonable in a world where hundreds of people are traipsing around the landscape 24x7x365. Anything that you build will get seen. Someone will poke behind that waterfall, or climb that mountain, or go down that canyon, or whatever. In fact, some people will think that's the most fun thing to do in the game. :)

This is why the 'hideout' mechanic is likely not going to involve any sort of visible portal. If there was a visible portal, it would get found almost instantly, and >poof< there goes the value of a hideout.

Being "remote" doesn't mean "vacant".

If there's 10,000 people in the game, and 2,000 of them are on-line at any given time (not an unreasonable percentage), even when we've built to the full 256 hexes of the Crusader Road, the average density would be 7 PCs per hex - 24x7x365. (We'll have way more people before we get to 256 hexes, so that's a gross underestimate of the density. I expect the average density to be a lot closer to 100 than 7). People will obviously cluster - some hexes will have 100x the average and some will have nobody in them from time to time. But PCs move around (a lot) so even a relatively sparsely visited hex will have a LOT of characters traveling through it over any reasonable timeframe.

This is just one of those "MMOs are special" things you have to wrap your brain around. That first M really is the difference between something like Skyrim and something like Pathfinder Online.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Concealed buildings aren't reasonable in a world where hundreds of people are traipsing around the landscape 24x7x365. Anything that you build will get seen. Someone will poke behind that waterfall, or climb that mountain, or go down that canyon, or whatever. In fact, some people will think that's the most fun thing to do in the game. :)

This is why the 'hideout' mechanic is likely not going to involve any sort of visible portal. If there was a visible portal, it would get found almost instantly, and >poof< there goes the value of a hideout.

Being "remote" doesn't mean "vacant".

If there's 10,000 people in the game, and 2,000 of them are on-line at any given time (not an unreasonable percentage), even when we've built to the full 256 hexes of the Crusader Road, the average density would be 7 PCs per hex - 24x7x365. (We'll have way more people before we get to 256 hexes, so that's a gross underestimate of the density. I expect the average density to be a lot closer to 100 than 7). People will obviously cluster - some hexes will have 100x the average and some will have nobody in them from time to time. But PCs move around (a lot) so even a relatively sparsely visited hex will have a LOT of characters traveling through it over any reasonable timeframe.

This is just one of those "MMOs are special" things you have to wrap your brain around. That first M really is the difference between something like Skyrim and something like Pathfinder Online.

Thanks for the response Ryan, I totally get the exploring side of it, I'm one of those people ;)

I guess then that means looking at the 'hideout' mechanic, is that something that could be 'themed'? I don't know if you guys are looking at that in terms of how they are laid out, or if it is even an explorable instance or what you have planned for them, but it would be cool if they came in 'flavours' like 'Necromantic Tower' 'Demon Worshiper Temple' 'Bandit Cave' etc.

Just a thought and I'll stop derailing this thread now. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:


If there's 10,000 people in the game, and 2,000 of them are on-line at any given time (not an unreasonable percentage),

actually... that implies the average player being online more than 30 hrs a week, which I think is unreasonable.

I would say 10% is more reasonable than 20%. US players will likely see the numbers Ryan estimated, though (while Aussies should expect far lower numbers).

CEO, Goblinworks

@randomwalker - I'm using industry-standard metrics, and figures supported by actual data. It will be about 20%.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

20% at peak times, not 20% averaged over the week.

Right? It isn't industry standard for the average player to spend 20% of their time playing?

Goblin Squad Member

It sounds to me like he's saying that, at any given moment, roughly 20% of the total user-base can be expected to be online, with significantly higher percentages during peak hours.

That doesn't mean each player is on 20% of their time. Some players will be on significantly more than that.

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