Could you give someone purple hair with Prestidigitation, and then use the feat Destructive Dispel to dispel it, stunning or sickening them?

I don't see any reason why not. You're dispelling your own spell, therefore, Destructive Dispel goes off.

As written, that feat would potentially force multiple saves to the same creature on a targeted greater dispel.... Nasty.

This prestidigitation thing seems almost too good to be true - I quicken a prestidigitation (at CL1) on someone, then cast a (greater) dispel. If I get some spells off them, great, but in any case they're stunned or sickened (with no SR.) It's almost too cheesy, but for my gnome prankster, it's perfect!

As written, that feat would potentially force multiple saves to the same creature on a targeted greater dispel.... Nasty.

Don't believe so, because it says on a successful check, and you only make one check for Greater Dispel.

From Greater Dispel:

"Targeted Dispel: This functions as a targeted dispel magic, but it can dispel one spell for every four caster levels you possess, starting with the highest level spells and proceeding to lower level spells."

So, you're saying that with a single roll, you either dispell all the possible spells or none?

I don't think that's how it works RAW, and I'm positive that's not the intent...

I thought with greater dispel you only made one roll, just like a regular dispel check. I could be wrong, in which case this feat is even better.

I think greater dispel would be pretty unbalanced if it were only one roll to determine all of the dispels. Way to much riding on one d20 roll.

I'd rather they just errata'd this feat to only apply once per use of the dispel ability, rather than unbalance the core spell with such an interpretation.

1) I am almost sure that there is only 1 dispel check when using greater dispel. It say that explicitly for the area dispel and nowhere it say that you make different checks for the tageted dispel.

2) Prestidigitation say " It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters". I think that the RAI is that you can't directly affect a unwilling target, only indirectly.
Your tactic would work with Wizard mark.

You're also burning an action and a third level spell to sicken someone. Sickened is about as powerful as shaken, which you can put on with a skill check and a standard action. It stacks, but I'm not terribly impressed here.

Sickened isn't great, but stunned is, and it gets past SR.

An arcane mark wouldn't work because "the mark cannot be dispelled".

Facepalm
:-)

Prestidigitation works fine. You hit someone with it and change their hair color. That doesn't do anything to them.

Dispelling the Prestidigitation effect, however, is a different story. It doesn't matter what spell you dispel, as long as something gets dispelled. The act of succeeding on a dispel check, is what triggers that feat.

If you're up against an enemy caster, and you hit them with a Glitterdust, they are covered in glitter regardless of if they made their save or not. If you then hit them with a Dispel Magic, you automatically succeed on dispelling the glitter, which triggers the Feat.

If you cast Bless and choose to affect the enemy with it, and then hit them with a dispel, the Bless is automatically dispelled, and triggers the feat.

It doesn't matter what spell you dispel, as long as you succeed on dispelling something.

Although RAW I concur...
RAI (dm powah) i would say no.. I would require you to dispel one of the target's own spells (or his allies'). Sorry, but it just sounds like too much of a loophole for me

Although RAW I concur...

RAI (dm powah) i would say no.. I would require you to dispel one of the target's own spells (or his allies'). Sorry, but it just sounds like too much of a loophole for me

you think using 2 standard actions to MAYBE stun someone powerful?

to do it in one round you'd have to quicken a 0 level spell, so that's a 4th level spell and a 3rd level spell to MAYBE stun someone.

i don't see that as powerful.

This prestidigitation thing seems almost too good to be true - I quicken a prestidigitation (at CL1) on someone, then cast a (greater) dispel. If I get some spells off them, great, but in any case they're stunned or sickened (with no SR.) It's almost too cheesy, but for my gnome prankster, it's perfect!

Fortitude save on a caster = win.

Makes sense if you ask me, since you basically blow up the arcane (or divine) energy of the spell involved with your dispel.

The explosion itself doesn't care about who's spell you are dispelling, so long as you succeed in doing so and thus trigger the effect.

You can use Dispel Synergy to possibly stack -2 penalties for each spell dispelled with a greater dispel...

Fluff text: "When you dispel an enemy’s magical defenses, those defenses crash down with debilitating effects.

I would houserule it that it applies only on enemy buffs probably, but again, this would be houserule only.

That on side, it's not nearly as powerful as other higher level spells which you will probably be casting at that level.

Could you give someone purple hair with Prestidigitation, and then use the feat Destructive Dispel to dispel it, stunning or sickening them?

If you're doing this in combat, note that the prestidigitation won't work since you can't use the spell to inflict effects on unwilling targets.

I guess the prestidigitation part is just to make sure you dispell something.
If you dispell some buff currently on the target all the better.

RumpinRufus wrote:

Could you give someone purple hair with Prestidigitation, and then use the feat Destructive Dispel to dispel it, stunning or sickening them?

If you're doing this in combat, note that the prestidigitation won't work since you can't use the spell to inflict effects on unwilling targets.

I don't see where you can't affect a hostile target. (though they'd get a trivial save).

The Devil We Know spoilers.

Also First Steps spoiler

Prestidigitation isn't affecting the person. casting destructive-dispel on someone is.

For those wondering, Prestidigitation was chosen because it allows no SR and no save. Tels' Glitterdust suggestion is also great, I didn't realize it had no SR. Does anyone else know any continuous effect spells that aren't negated by a save and don't allow SR that could also work this way?

RumpinRufus wrote:

Could you give someone purple hair with Prestidigitation, and then use the feat Destructive Dispel to dispel it, stunning or sickening them?

If you're doing this in combat, note that the prestidigitation won't work since you can't use the spell to inflict effects on unwilling targets.

Reference?

RumpinRufus wrote:

Could you give someone purple hair with Prestidigitation, and then use the feat Destructive Dispel to dispel it, stunning or sickening them?

If you're doing this in combat, note that the prestidigitation won't work since you can't use the spell to inflict effects on unwilling targets.

I'm not sure if it's part of the AP or something our GM added but in Kingmaker an NPC did it to other NPCs:

Must have been DM interpretation, because prestidigitation has a one hour limit and you can have only one active...

But since i'm a dm too.. YEY!! Good find dude! ;)

When the plot starts to ignore the rules too often in favour of "good story-telling", the whole game eventually suffers for it.

That's how I believe it to be. I didn't even mention that scenario to the players since I knew the Wizard would point out the flaws in that plan.

School universal; Level bard 0, magus 0, sorcerer/wizard 0

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT

Range 10 ft.
Target, Effect, or Area see text
Duration 1 hour
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no

[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
DESCRIPTION

Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

Please, tell me where exactly, it requires the target of the spell to be willing?

Target, Effect, and Area say "see text" so we need to read the text.
Saving Throw also says "see text" so again, we need to read the text.

Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Nothing here about willing creatures.

Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. Nothing here.

The effects are minor and have severe limitations. Nope.

A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. Oh look, 1 pound of material, doesn't need to be willing either.

It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. 1-foot cube is mention, that's roughly the size of your head. No mention of willing though.

It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. Hmm, again, 1 pound of material, doesn't need to be willing.

It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Can't deal damage or affect concentration. Ok, so I turn your hair pink. Did that deal damage or affect your concentration? Nope.

Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. No mention of willing creatures here.

The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. I'm seeing a pattern...

Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Ok, no willing mentioned.

Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour. And to wrap it up, it still doesn't mention creatures have to be willing.

So, you can move 1 pound of material, color, clean, or soil 1-foot cube of material, or chill, warm or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. No where int he entirety of the spell description does it say, "target must be willing" for the spell to work. It gives size, and weight requirements only.

So there is nothing in the Prestidigitation that prevents the plot device in Kingmaker from working. There is also nothing in Prestidigitation that prevents you from coloring an enemies hair Pink, then hitting them with Dispel to trigger the effects of the Destructive Dispel feat.

It don't say "willing" anywhere.

As I did say I think that the RAI is that it should not affect a unwilling target. RAW they work perfectly.
Sadly, a few cantrips have a problem: they bypass any magical resistance and ST. Probably the Developers thought: "They are only 1/2 spells, so they will be used only for flavour, no need to give them a ST or be affected by spell resistance".

So I want to embarrass the countess during a important social gathering?
Use prestidigitation and make her smell as she has soiled herself.
I need to be a bit careful not to be seen, but it isn't hard to do.

I want to create trouble at a banquet? Change the flavour or food, making it appear spoiled or even poisoned. 0% chance of noticing that it is a unreal effect unless you use detect magic (it isn't even an illusion).

Prestidigitation doesn't even say in the text it affects creatures at all. It says what "won't" work on a creature, but not what will. Nor does it ever clarify Saving Throw 'see text'.

I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).

It would probably be possible to use it on undead though.

Must have been DM interpretation, because prestidigitation has a one hour limit and you can have only one active...

You can only have one active but this one can be used for one hour to do the tricks it describes again and again.

Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour.

You can do tricks for one hour. Not just one trick that lasts one hour.

I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).

It would probably be possible to use it on undead though.

Precident: First Steps part 1.

That doesn't tell us that much. It's a specific trap, so it might well be specific > general. Note that it also allows a save which is unusual for prestidigitation.

You can do tricks for one hour.

And in order to do so, you must cast it on yourself. Using prestidigitation to turn an orc blue isn't casting it on the orc.

If you cast it on the orc, then he can turn other things blue.

I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).

It would probably be possible to use it on undead though.

You say it can't work on living creatures, but nowhere in the spell does it say it can't work on living creatures.

Prestidigitation has exactly 3 targets as defined by the spell.

A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It doesn't say nonliving material, or living material. It just says material. If there is a 1 pound mushroom, you can lift it. If there is a 1 pound rock, you can lift it. That's the limit of this use.

It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. 1-foot cube is the limit of this use. Your head is roughly 1-foot cube. That means I could turn your whole head pink. I could turn a soccer ball pink. I could turn your arm pink. I could turn a pile of rocks pink. I could turn the skin on your belly pink. Anything that fits within the 1-foot cube is a viable target for the spell.

It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. This is the only target that limits what can and cannot be targeted. Only nonliving material can be the target of this effect. The other two effects can be used on both living and nonliving material.

If you want to prevent Prestidigitation from targeting living creatures, then as a GM, that is your prerogative. But that would be a house rule.

Umbranus wrote:

You can do tricks for one hour.

And in order to do so, you must cast it on yourself. Using prestidigitation to turn an orc blue isn't casting it on the orc.

If you cast it on the orc, then he can turn other things blue.

Actually you cast a spell, and then are able to use that spell to do a variety of things. You don't have to cast the spell on another person, you simply cast it, and then you are able to target other things for a variety of tricks for 1 hour.

When I cast Prestidigitation, I can then turn the the skin of orcs around me blue. It'll take a couple actions to totally change their skin color to blue, as I can only color 1-foot cube of material at a time, but I'll eventually be able to do so.

A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material.[/i] It doesn't say nonliving material, or living material. It just says material. If there is a 1 pound mushroom, you can lift it. If there is a 1 pound rock, you can lift it. That's the limit of this use.

That's just... silly. Your intrepretation clearly goes outside of the spells intended effect. Buuut, if you wanna go rawy-raw: I could basically lift you too, by just lifting your ears. The rest of your body might follow too, but nothing in the description says it can't!

Also, I move your fist backwards when you try to strike me. No save prevent all attacks. ooooh, nifty!

Oh, and I can create small objects, like toxic waste within your body! Note that only conjuration spells has a limit on where they can create stuff, and this is a universal spell! So I can create a nice batch of Dragon Bile in your tummy, yummy yummy! Note that the spell doesn't cause damage, the poison does!

RAWy-RAW-RAW isn't a good idea to aim for at all.

Except there are no rules for called shots...

How would you know what the intended effects of the spell are? Did you create it? I doubt that. You are saying what you believe the intention behind the spell is. Just because you believe it's true, doesn't mean it is.

The RULES state I can move 1 pound of material. Therefore, I can move 1 pound of material. I'm not quite certain why your brain is failing to grasp that fact, but just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Also, while we're on it, that fist you're trying to stop moving is connected to my arm, which is connected to my body, which is wearing armor, and carrying a weapon. Sorry, you can't stop some 300 pounds from moving with your cantrip.

Neither can you lift up my body because my ears are attached to my head, which is, again, attached to my body, and my gear.

RAW RAW RAW you can't duplicate the effects of other spells.

RAW RAW RAW there is a spell called Poison.

RAW RAW RAW you can't poison someone by creating it with Prestidigitation.

RAW RAW RAW stop being a child.

RAW RAW RAW you can create a stain on someone's shirt.

RAW RAW RAW you can change the color of a Kobold's scales.

RAW RAW RAW you're still wrong.

RAW I don't duplicate the spell poison. The spell poison has very specific effects that I do not duplicate (for example, touch range, allowing a saving throw vs the spell, being a necromancy effect). Thus it is not a duplicate but rather something similar in some ways, just like how your recoloring is similar to Change Self in some ways (though with different target and duration).

So, if we do it your style:
The RULES state I can create small objects without specifying where. Therefore, I can create small objects like dragon bile. I'm not quite certain why your brain is failing to grasp that fact, but just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Ilja wrote:

I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).

It would probably be possible to use it on undead though.

Precident: First Steps part 1.

** spoiler omitted **
So it appears prestidigitation can work on living targets.

... for 3d20 minutes, Will DC 11 resists); ...

If you want to treat that as precedence, then it also has a Will save to resist which is consistent with the Saving throw line (and makes a heck of a lot more sense).

The only reason I pointed it out is because people are claiming it is the RAW when it's not cut-and-dry.

Umbranus wrote:

You can do tricks for one hour.

And in order to do so, you must cast it on yourself. Using prestidigitation to turn an orc blue isn't casting it on the orc.

If you cast it on the orc, then he can turn other things blue.

Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour.

Prestidigitation allow the caster to perform simple magical effects, you never cast prestidigitation on another target. You use the "simple magical effects".

Tels wrote:

A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material.[/i] It doesn't say nonliving material, or living material. It just says material. If there is a 1 pound mushroom, you can lift it. If there is a 1 pound rock, you can lift it. That's the limit of this use.

That's just... silly. Your intrepretation clearly goes outside of the spells intended effect. Buuut, if you wanna go rawy-raw: I could basically lift you too, by just lifting your ears. The rest of your body might follow too, but nothing in the description says it can't!

Also, I move your fist backwards when you try to strike me. No save prevent all attacks. ooooh, nifty!

Oh, and I can create small objects, like toxic waste within your body! Note that only conjuration spells has a limit on where they can create stuff, and this is a universal spell! So I can create a nice batch of Dragon Bile in your tummy, yummy yummy! Note that the spell doesn't cause damage, the poison does!

RAWy-RAW-RAW isn't a good idea to aim for at all.

No strawman, please!

Tels interpretation is within the parameters of the spell, the problem is that the spell power is badly defined.

I agree that that post by me was badly written and I apologize for that, but:
My interpretation is also within the parameters of the spell.

That's just... silly. Your intrepretation clearly goes outside of the spells intended effect. Buuut, if you wanna go rawy-raw: I could basically lift you too, by just lifting your ears. The rest of your body might follow too, but nothing in the description says it can't!

The description "can lift 1 pound of material" says you can't.

You can lift my ears. The rest of me won't follow. Once you lift my ears past the point where they start straning against my body and elasticity comes into play, you are now trying to lift at least the weight of my head, which is more than one pound.

So you're wrong.

Also, I move your fist backwards when you try to strike me. No save prevent all attacks. ooooh, nifty!

See above. With the added caveat that this only works if the person has no armor on his hand and the hand is completely stationary (even a simple wave of the hand creates much more than 1 pound of force, which you would have to counteract before you could move the material).

Oh, and I can create small objects, like toxic waste within your body! Note that only conjuration spells has a limit on where they can create stuff, and this is a universal spell! So I can create a nice batch of Dragon Bile in your tummy, yummy yummy! Note that the spell doesn't cause damage, the poison does!

Dragon Bile is not an object, it is a substance.

Even if I were to defer to that, it's got a save attached to it (DC 26), is a contact poison (since we're going by RAW, it has no effect on ingestion if you never came into contact with it) and it would only cause 1d3 Str damage for 1 hour at the most even if it did work.

GG no re

Is there any rule saying a substance isn't an object? Also, the Dragon Bile might as well be frozen. There's no rule saying it has to be in fluid form to work. And note the plural in "objects". You can create five doses at the same time, so it's five saves of varying DC (those poison DC stacking rules). The poison would cause a total of 5d3 str damage and since there's no rule on the poison having to stay in the body for the damage to stay in the body, it would last until normally healed.

Oh, and note that the 5d3 str damage is per _turn_. But don't worry, the bile will LOOK crude and artificial!

(oh, and note too that poisons are not weapons, tools or spell components by the rules. just have to point that out).

Is there any rule saying a substance isn't an object? Also, the Dragon Bile might as well be frozen. There's no rule saying it has to be in fluid form to work. And note the plural in "objects". You can create five doses at the same time, so it's five saves of varying DC (those poison DC stacking rules). The poison would cause a total of 5d3 str damage and since there's no rule on the poison having to stay in the body for the damage to stay in the body, it would last until normally healed.

Dragon Bile is a contact poison.

Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time

Oh, and note that the 5d3 str damage is per _turn_. But don't worry, the bile will LOOK crude and artificial!

(oh, and note too that poisons are not weapons, tools or spell components by the rules. just have to point that out).

Also:

Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative. Multiple doses do not alter the cure conditions of the poison, and meeting these conditions ends the affliction for all the doses. For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.

Duration stacks, effect doesn't.

Oh, and note that the 5d3 str damage is per _turn_. But don't worry, the bile will LOOK crude and artificial!

(oh, and note too that poisons are not weapons, tools or spell components by the rules. just have to point that out).

It seems like you are just trying to be argumentative. As you point out the spell cannot be used as a weapon, which I would say covers the creation of poison. But even if you don't think that section of the spell description covers creating a poison to damage someone, then you can always just refer back to this bit:

It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters.

RAWy-RAW-RAW isn't a good idea to aim for at all.

Also, why are you in this section of the messageboard? It is for rules. If you don't like the rules or want to be helpful in helping to interpret them, then please either don't post here, or be civil and post the way you think they're intended and leave it at that.

You guys are concentrating on the wrong part of the spell.

" Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour"

When you use prestidigitation, you aren't placing any spells on anyone that can be dispelled.

You're right about effect not stacking. Sorry 'bout that.

Actually, the spell doesn't deal damage, the poison does, by "the RULES". Since you know, we're in a RULES forum. And creating poison is not a weapon, since the rules doesn't state it as a weapon (and is actually quite consistent in using "weapon" about something completely different).

Ilja wrote:

RAWy-RAW-RAW isn't a good idea to aim for at all.

Also, why are you in this section of the messageboard? It is for rules. If you don't like the rules or want to be helpful in helping to interpret them, then please either don't post here, or be civil and post the way you think they're intended and leave it at that.

My argument is that if we disregard how it is _INTENDED_ just as you say, we get a broken spell. That is exactly what Tels did when going: (paraphrased) "saving throw: see text" but it never says in the text it allows save so it doesn't, and it doesn't specify material cannot be a person so it can".

I'm saying if "material" can be a person and if we can ignore the saving throw line because it doesn't tell us more in the text, we're already ignoring intent in several places and arguing for it by saying, as Tels, "the RULES [sic] state".

Some people in these forums claim that what is written in the text is the relevant thing and that intent is irrelevant. I'm trying to show how that isn't a good position because it leads to weird results like "the RULES state" I can't use it as a weapon, but the rules don't state creating poison inside of someone is a weapon (especially since weapon usually has a quite specific meaning in PF).

You guys are concentrating on the wrong part of the spell.

" Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour"

When you use prestidigitation, you aren't placing any spells on anyone that can be dispelled.

The spell is badly written, but also note it's Target/Effect/Area line. It's not as simple as a Target: You.

Personally, I believe the intent to be that the spell is cast on you, and that the target/effect/area line is just badly written. I believe that it's not intended to affect people, though I'm unsure of that. I do believe that there is a saving throw for magic items, carried items, and, IF the spell is intended to affect creatures, for creatures.