paizo.com Recent Posts in Destructive Dispel + Prestidigitationpaizo.com Recent Posts in Destructive Dispel + Prestidigitation2012-11-06T05:02:34Z2012-11-06T05:02:34ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationIlja (alias of stringburka)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#492012-11-09T10:05:33Z2012-11-09T10:05:33Z<p>You're right about effect not stacking. Sorry 'bout that.</p>
<p>Actually, the spell doesn't deal damage, the poison does, by "the RULES". Since you know, we're in a RULES forum. And creating poison is not a weapon, since the rules doesn't state it as a weapon (and is actually quite consistent in using "weapon" about something completely different).</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Archamus wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote>RAWy-RAW-RAW isn't a good idea to aim for at all. </blockquote>Also, why are you in this section of the messageboard? It is for rules. If you don't like the rules or want to be helpful in helping to interpret them, then please either don't post here, or be civil and post the way you think they're intended and leave it at that. </blockquote><p>My argument is that if we disregard how it is _INTENDED_ just as you say, we get a broken spell. That is exactly what Tels did when going: (paraphrased) "saving throw: see text" but it never says in the text it allows save so it doesn't, and it doesn't specify material cannot be a person so it can".
<p>I'm saying if "material" can be a person and if we can ignore the saving throw line because it doesn't tell us more in the text, we're already ignoring intent in several places and arguing for it by saying, as Tels, "the RULES [sic] state".</p>
<p>Some people in these forums claim that what is written in the text is the relevant thing and that intent is irrelevant. I'm trying to show how that isn't a good position because it leads to weird results like "the RULES state" I can't use it as a weapon, but the rules don't state creating poison inside of someone is a weapon (especially since weapon usually has a quite specific meaning in PF).</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Serum wrote:</div><blockquote><p>You guys are concentrating on the wrong part of the spell.</p>
<p>" Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour"</p>
<p>When you use prestidigitation, you aren't placing any spells on anyone that can be dispelled.</blockquote><p>The spell is badly written, but also note it's Target/Effect/Area line. It's not as simple as a Target: You.
<p><b>Personally, I believe the intent</b> to be that the spell is cast on you, and that the target/effect/area line is just badly written. I believe that it's not intended to affect people, though I'm unsure of that. I do believe that there is a saving throw for magic items, carried items, and, IF the spell is intended to affect creatures, for creatures.</p>You're right about effect not stacking. Sorry 'bout that.
Actually, the spell doesn't deal damage, the poison does, by "the RULES". Since you know, we're in a RULES forum. And creating poison is not a weapon, since the rules doesn't state it as a weapon (and is actually quite consistent in using "weapon" about something completely different).
Archamus wrote:Ilja wrote:RAWy-RAW-RAW isn't a good idea to aim for at all.
Also, why are you in this section of the messageboard? It is for rules....Ilja (alias of stringburka)2012-11-09T10:05:33ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationSerumhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#482012-11-09T07:19:07Z2012-11-09T01:37:04Z<p>You guys are concentrating on the wrong part of the spell.</p>
<p>" Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables <b>you</b> to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour"</p>
<p>When you use prestidigitation, you aren't placing any spells on anyone that can be dispelled.</p>You guys are concentrating on the wrong part of the spell.
" Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour"
When you use prestidigitation, you aren't placing any spells on anyone that can be dispelled.Serum2012-11-09T01:37:04ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationArchamushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#472012-11-09T01:15:07Z2012-11-09T01:15:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote>RAWy-RAW-RAW isn't a good idea to aim for at all. </blockquote><p>Also, why are you in this section of the messageboard? It is for rules. If you don't like the rules or want to be helpful in helping to interpret them, then please either don't post here, or be civil and post the way you think they're intended and leave it at that.Ilja wrote:RAWy-RAW-RAW isn't a good idea to aim for at all.
Also, why are you in this section of the messageboard? It is for rules. If you don't like the rules or want to be helpful in helping to interpret them, then please either don't post here, or be civil and post the way you think they're intended and leave it at that.Archamus2012-11-09T01:15:07ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationArchamushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#462012-11-09T01:11:51Z2012-11-09T01:11:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Oh, and note that the 5d3 str damage is per _turn_. But don't worry, the bile will LOOK crude and artificial!</p>
<p>(oh, and note too that poisons are not weapons, tools or spell components by the rules. just have to point that out). </blockquote><p>It seems like you are just trying to be argumentative. As you point out the spell cannot be used as a weapon, which I would say covers the creation of poison. But even if you don't think that section of the spell description covers creating a poison to damage someone, then you can always just refer back to this bit:
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Prestidigitation wrote:</div><blockquote> It <b>cannot deal damage</b> or affect the concentration of spellcasters.</blockquote><p>Ilja wrote:Oh, and note that the 5d3 str damage is per _turn_. But don't worry, the bile will LOOK crude and artificial!
(oh, and note too that poisons are not weapons, tools or spell components by the rules. just have to point that out).
It seems like you are just trying to be argumentative. As you point out the spell cannot be used as a weapon, which I would say covers the creation of poison. But even if you don't think that section of the spell description covers creating a poison to...Archamus2012-11-09T01:11:51ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationRynjinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#452012-11-09T00:38:14Z2012-11-09T00:38:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote> Is there any rule saying a substance isn't an object? Also, the Dragon Bile might as well be frozen. There's no rule saying it has to be in fluid form to work. And note the plural in "objects". You can create five doses at the same time, so it's five saves of varying DC (those poison DC stacking rules). The poison would cause a total of 5d3 str damage and since there's no rule on the poison having to stay in the body for the damage to stay in the body, it would last until normally healed.</blockquote><p>Dragon Bile is a contact poison.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time</blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Oh, and note that the 5d3 str damage is per _turn_. But don't worry, the bile will LOOK crude and artificial!</p>
<p>(oh, and note too that poisons are not weapons, tools or spell components by the rules. just have to point that out). </blockquote><p>Also:
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote> Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative. Multiple doses do not alter the cure conditions of the poison, and meeting these conditions ends the affliction for all the doses. For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.</blockquote><p>Duration stacks, effect doesn't.Ilja wrote:Is there any rule saying a substance isn't an object? Also, the Dragon Bile might as well be frozen. There's no rule saying it has to be in fluid form to work. And note the plural in "objects". You can create five doses at the same time, so it's five saves of varying DC (those poison DC stacking rules). The poison would cause a total of 5d3 str damage and since there's no rule on the poison having to stay in the body for the damage to stay in the body, it would last until normally...Rynjin2012-11-09T00:38:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationIlja (alias of stringburka)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#442012-11-09T00:30:40Z2012-11-09T00:30:40Z<p>Is there any rule saying a substance isn't an object? Also, the Dragon Bile might as well be frozen. There's no rule saying it has to be in fluid form to work. And note the plural in "objects". You can create five doses at the same time, so it's five saves of varying DC (those poison DC stacking rules). The poison would cause a total of 5d3 str damage and since there's no rule on the poison having to stay in the body for the damage to stay in the body, it would last until normally healed.</p>
<p>Oh, and note that the 5d3 str damage is per _turn_. But don't worry, the bile will LOOK crude and artificial!</p>
<p>(oh, and note too that poisons are not weapons, tools or spell components by the rules. just have to point that out).</p>Is there any rule saying a substance isn't an object? Also, the Dragon Bile might as well be frozen. There's no rule saying it has to be in fluid form to work. And note the plural in "objects". You can create five doses at the same time, so it's five saves of varying DC (those poison DC stacking rules). The poison would cause a total of 5d3 str damage and since there's no rule on the poison having to stay in the body for the damage to stay in the body, it would last until normally healed.
...Ilja (alias of stringburka)2012-11-09T00:30:40ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationRynjinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#432012-11-09T00:23:59Z2012-11-09T00:23:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
That's just... silly. Your intrepretation clearly goes outside of the spells intended effect. Buuut, if you wanna go rawy-raw: I could basically lift you too, by just lifting your ears. The rest of your body might follow too, but nothing in the description says it can't!</blockquote><p>The description "can lift 1 pound of material" says you can't.
<p>You can lift my ears. The rest of me won't follow. Once you lift my ears past the point where they start straning against my body and elasticity comes into play, you are now trying to lift at least the weight of my head, which is more than one pound.</p>
<p>So you're wrong.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Also, I move your fist backwards when you try to strike me. No save prevent all attacks. ooooh, nifty!</blockquote><p>See above. With the added caveat that this only works if the person has no armor on his hand and the hand is completely stationary (even a simple wave of the hand creates much more than 1 pound of force, which you would have to counteract before you could move the material).
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Oh, and I can create small objects, like toxic waste within your body! Note that only conjuration spells has a limit on where they can create stuff, and this is a universal spell! So I can create a nice batch of Dragon Bile in your tummy, yummy yummy! Note that the spell doesn't cause damage, the poison does!</blockquote><p>Dragon Bile is not an object, it is a substance.
<p>Even if I were to defer to that, it's got a save attached to it (DC 26), is a contact poison (since we're going by RAW, it has no effect on ingestion if you never came into contact with it) and it would only cause 1d3 Str damage for 1 hour at the most even if it did work.</p>
<p>GG no re</p>Ilja wrote:That's just... silly. Your intrepretation clearly goes outside of the spells intended effect. Buuut, if you wanna go rawy-raw: I could basically lift you too, by just lifting your ears. The rest of your body might follow too, but nothing in the description says it can't!
The description "can lift 1 pound of material" says you can't. You can lift my ears. The rest of me won't follow. Once you lift my ears past the point where they start straning against my body and elasticity comes...Rynjin2012-11-09T00:23:59ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationIlja (alias of stringburka)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#422012-11-09T00:00:50Z2012-11-09T00:00:50Z<p>I agree that that post by me was badly written and I apologize for that, but:
<br />
My interpretation is also within the parameters of the spell.</p>I agree that that post by me was badly written and I apologize for that, but:
My interpretation is also within the parameters of the spell.Ilja (alias of stringburka)2012-11-09T00:00:50ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationDiego Rossihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#412012-11-09T01:17:37Z2012-11-08T23:53:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Tels wrote:</div><blockquote> A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material.[/i] It doesn't say nonliving material, or living material. It just says material. If there is a 1 pound mushroom, you can lift it. If there is a 1 pound rock, you can lift it. That's the limit of this use.</blockquote><p>That's just... silly. Your intrepretation clearly goes outside of the spells intended effect. Buuut, if you wanna go rawy-raw: I could basically lift you too, by just lifting your ears. The rest of your body might follow too, but nothing in the description says it can't!
<p>Also, I move your fist backwards when you try to strike me. No save prevent all attacks. ooooh, nifty!</p>
<p>Oh, and I can create small objects, like toxic waste within your body! Note that only conjuration spells has a limit on where they can create stuff, and this is a universal spell! So I can create a nice batch of Dragon Bile in your tummy, yummy yummy! Note that the spell doesn't cause damage, the poison does!</p>
<p>RAWy-RAW-RAW isn't a good idea to aim for at all. </blockquote><p>No strawman, please!
<p>Tels interpretation is within the parameters of the spell, the problem is that the spell power is badly defined.</p>Ilja wrote:Tels wrote: A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material.[/i] It doesn't say nonliving material, or living material. It just says material. If there is a 1 pound mushroom, you can lift it. If there is a 1 pound rock, you can lift it. That's the limit of this use.
That's just... silly. Your intrepretation clearly goes outside of the spells intended effect. Buuut, if you wanna go rawy-raw: I could basically lift you too, by just lifting your ears. The rest of your body...Diego Rossi2012-11-08T23:53:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationDiego Rossihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#402012-11-09T01:17:32Z2012-11-08T23:48:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Grick wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Umbranus wrote:</div><blockquote> You can do tricks for one hour. </blockquote><p>And in order to do so, you must cast it on yourself. Using prestidigitation to turn an orc blue isn't casting it on the orc.
<p>If you cast it on the orc, then <i>he</i> can turn other things blue. </p>
<p></blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">PRD wrote:</div><blockquote>Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. </blockquote><p>Prestidigitation allow the caster to perform simple magical effects, you never cast prestidigitation on another target. You use the "simple magical effects".Grick wrote:Umbranus wrote: You can do tricks for one hour.
And in order to do so, you must cast it on yourself. Using prestidigitation to turn an orc blue isn't casting it on the orc. If you cast it on the orc, then he can turn other things blue.
PRD wrote:Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour.
Prestidigitation allow the caster to perform simple magical effects, you never cast prestidigitation on another target. You use the "simple...Diego Rossi2012-11-08T23:48:10ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationDennis Baker (Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#392012-11-08T23:38:14Z2012-11-08T23:38:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Matthew Morris wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).</p>
<p>It would probably be possible to use it on undead though. </blockquote><p>Precident: First Steps part 1.
</p>
•• spoiler omitted ••
<br />
So it appears <i>prestidigitation</i> can work on living targets. </blockquote><p>... for 3d20 minutes, <b>Will DC 11</b> resists); ...
<p>If you want to treat that as precedence, then it also has a Will save to resist which is consistent with the Saving throw line (and makes a heck of a lot more sense).</p>
<p>The only reason I pointed it out is because people are claiming it is the RAW when it's not cut-and-dry.</p>Matthew Morris wrote:Ilja wrote:I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).
It would probably be possible to use it on undead though.
Precident:...Dennis Baker (Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16)2012-11-08T23:38:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationIlja (alias of stringburka)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#382012-11-08T23:31:42Z2012-11-08T23:31:42Z<p>RAW I don't duplicate the spell poison. The spell poison has very specific effects that I do not duplicate (for example, touch range, allowing a saving throw vs the spell, being a necromancy effect). Thus it is not a duplicate but rather something similar in some ways, just like how your recoloring is similar to Change Self in some ways (though with different target and duration).</p>
<p>So, if we do it your style:
<br />
The RULES state I can create small objects without specifying where. Therefore, I can create small objects like dragon bile. I'm not quite certain why your brain is failing to grasp that fact, but just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it isn't true.</p>RAW I don't duplicate the spell poison. The spell poison has very specific effects that I do not duplicate (for example, touch range, allowing a saving throw vs the spell, being a necromancy effect). Thus it is not a duplicate but rather something similar in some ways, just like how your recoloring is similar to Change Self in some ways (though with different target and duration).
So, if we do it your style:
The RULES state I can create small objects without specifying where. Therefore, I...Ilja (alias of stringburka)2012-11-08T23:31:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationTelshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#372012-11-09T01:17:14Z2012-11-08T23:23:45Z<p>How would you know what the intended effects of the spell are? Did you create it? I doubt that. <b>You</b> are saying what <b>you</b> believe the intention behind the spell is. Just because <b>you</b> believe it's true, doesn't mean it is.</p>
<p>The <span class=messageboard-bigger><b>RULES</b></span> state I can move 1 pound of material. Therefore, I can move 1 pound of material. I'm not quite certain why your brain is failing to grasp that fact, but just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it isn't true.</p>
<p>Also, while we're on it, that fist you're trying to stop moving is connected to my arm, which is connected to my body, which is wearing armor, and carrying a weapon. Sorry, you can't stop some 300 pounds from moving with your cantrip.</p>
<p>Neither can you lift up my body because my ears are attached to my head, which is, again, attached to my body, and my gear.</p>
<p>RAW RAW RAW you can't duplicate the effects of other spells.</p>
<p>RAW RAW RAW there is a spell called Poison.</p>
<p>RAW RAW RAW you can't poison someone by creating it with Prestidigitation.</p>
<p>RAW RAW RAW stop being a child.</p>
<p>RAW RAW RAW you can create a stain on someone's shirt.</p>
<p>RAW RAW RAW you can change the color of a Kobold's scales.</p>
<p>RAW RAW RAW you're still wrong.</p>How would you know what the intended effects of the spell are? Did you create it? I doubt that. You are saying what you believe the intention behind the spell is. Just because you believe it's true, doesn't mean it is.
The RULES state I can move 1 pound of material. Therefore, I can move 1 pound of material. I'm not quite certain why your brain is failing to grasp that fact, but just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it isn't true.
Also, while we're on it, that fist you're...Tels2012-11-08T23:23:45ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + Prestidigitationdeuxherohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#362012-11-08T23:04:25Z2012-11-08T23:04:25Z<p>Except there are no rules for called shots...</p>Except there are no rules for called shots...deuxhero2012-11-08T23:04:25ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationIlja (alias of stringburka)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#352012-11-08T22:59:37Z2012-11-08T22:59:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tels wrote:</div><blockquote> A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material.[/i] It doesn't say nonliving material, or living material. It just says material. If there is a 1 pound mushroom, you can lift it. If there is a 1 pound rock, you can lift it. That's the limit of this use.</blockquote><p>That's just... silly. Your intrepretation clearly goes outside of the spells intended effect. Buuut, if you wanna go rawy-raw: I could basically lift you too, by just lifting your ears. The rest of your body might follow too, but nothing in the description says it can't!
<p>Also, I move your fist backwards when you try to strike me. No save prevent all attacks. ooooh, nifty!</p>
<p>Oh, and I can create small objects, like toxic waste within your body! Note that only conjuration spells has a limit on where they can create stuff, and this is a universal spell! So I can create a nice batch of Dragon Bile in your tummy, yummy yummy! Note that the spell doesn't cause damage, the poison does!</p>
<p>RAWy-RAW-RAW isn't a good idea to aim for at all.</p>Tels wrote:A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material.[/i] It doesn't say nonliving material, or living material. It just says material. If there is a 1 pound mushroom, you can lift it. If there is a 1 pound rock, you can lift it. That's the limit of this use.
That's just... silly. Your intrepretation clearly goes outside of the spells intended effect. Buuut, if you wanna go rawy-raw: I could basically lift you too, by just lifting your ears. The rest of your body might follow...Ilja (alias of stringburka)2012-11-08T22:59:37ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationTelshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#342012-11-08T22:46:42Z2012-11-08T22:46:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).</p>
<p>It would probably be possible to use it on undead though. </blockquote><p>You say it can't work on living creatures, but nowhere in the spell does it say it can't work on living creatures.
<p>Prestidigitation has exactly 3 targets as defined by the spell.</p>
<p><i>A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material.</i> It doesn't say nonliving material, or living material. It just says material. If there is a 1 pound mushroom, you can lift it. If there is a 1 pound rock, you can lift it. That's the limit of this use.</p>
<p><i>It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round.</i> 1-foot cube is the limit of this use. Your head is roughly 1-foot cube. That means I could turn your whole head pink. I could turn a soccer ball pink. I could turn your arm pink. I could turn a pile of rocks pink. I could turn the skin on your belly pink. Anything that fits within the 1-foot cube is a viable target for the spell.</p>
<p><i>It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material.</i> This is the only target that limits what can and cannot be targeted. Only nonliving material can be the target of this effect. The other two effects can be used on both living and nonliving material.</p>
<p>If you want to prevent Prestidigitation from targeting living creatures, then as a GM, that is your prerogative. But that would be a house rule.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Grick wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Umbranus wrote:</div><blockquote>You can do tricks for one hour.</blockquote><p>And in order to do so, you must cast it on yourself. Using prestidigitation to turn an orc blue isn't casting it on the orc.
<p>If you cast it on the orc, then he can turn other things blue.</blockquote><p>Actually you cast a spell, and then are able to use that spell to do a variety of things. You don't have to cast the spell on another person, you simply cast it, and then you are able to target other things for a variety of tricks for 1 hour.
<p>When I cast Prestidigitation, I can then turn the the skin of orcs around me blue. It'll take a couple actions to totally change their skin color to blue, as I can only color 1-foot cube of material at a time, but I'll eventually be able to do so.</p>Ilja wrote:I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).
It would probably be possible to use it on undead though.
You say it can't work on living...Tels2012-11-08T22:46:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationGrickhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#332012-11-08T17:05:35Z2012-11-08T17:05:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Umbranus wrote:</div><blockquote> You can do tricks for one hour. </blockquote><p>And in order to do so, you must cast it on yourself. Using prestidigitation to turn an orc blue isn't casting it on the orc.
<p>If you cast it on the orc, then <i>he</i> can turn other things blue.</p>Umbranus wrote:You can do tricks for one hour.
And in order to do so, you must cast it on yourself. Using prestidigitation to turn an orc blue isn't casting it on the orc. If you cast it on the orc, then he can turn other things blue.Grick2012-11-08T17:05:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationIlja (alias of stringburka)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#322012-11-08T17:00:11Z2012-11-08T17:00:11Z<p>That doesn't tell us that much. It's a specific trap, so it might well be specific > general. Note that it also allows a save which is unusual for prestidigitation.</p>That doesn't tell us that much. It's a specific trap, so it might well be specific > general. Note that it also allows a save which is unusual for prestidigitation.Ilja (alias of stringburka)2012-11-08T17:00:11ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationMatthew Morris (RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#312012-11-08T13:53:15Z2012-11-08T13:53:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ilja wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).</p>
<p>It would probably be possible to use it on undead though. </blockquote><p>Precident: First Steps part 1.
</p>
[Spoiler omitted]
<br />
So it appears <i>prestidigitation</i> can work on living targets.</p>Ilja wrote:I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).
It would probably be possible to use it on undead though.
Precident: First Steps part 1.
...Matthew Morris (RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8)2012-11-08T13:53:15ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationUmbranushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#302012-11-08T11:37:46Z2012-11-08T11:34:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rickmeister wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Must have been DM interpretation, because <a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/prestidigitation.html#prestidigitation" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> prestidigitation</a> has a one hour limit and you can have only one active...
</p>
</blockquote><p>You can only have one active but this one can be used for one hour to do the tricks it describes again and again.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour.</blockquote><p>You can do tricks for one hour. Not just one trick that lasts one hour.
</p>
You could even read it so that you can use the tricks for one hour and each effect lasts for one hour after you did it. So if you turn your green apple red when the spell only has 1 minute duration left the apple will still stay red for one hour. Enough time to cast a new prestidigitation to make it red again... and again.. undtil you go to sleep.</p>Rickmeister wrote:Must have been DM interpretation, because prestidigitation has a one hour limit and you can have only one active...
You can only have one active but this one can be used for one hour to do the tricks it describes again and again. Quote:Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour.
You can do tricks for one hour. Not just one trick that lasts one hour.
You could even read it so that you can use the tricks for one hour and...Umbranus2012-11-08T11:34:37ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationIlja (alias of stringburka)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#292012-11-08T10:23:07Z2012-11-08T10:23:07Z<p>I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).</p>
<p>It would probably be possible to use it on undead though.</p>I agree with Dennis Baker. Prestidigitation cannot affect living creatures at all. While it could be argued that things like hair and scales are nonliving, that ignores the game's tendency to treat creatures as a single entity (hence no "i attack the arm"), and otherwise, you could sunder the scales of a creature (and I assume there are other spells that can break with that interpretation).
It would probably be possible to use it on undead though.Ilja (alias of stringburka)2012-11-08T10:23:07ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationDennis Baker (Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#282012-11-08T10:20:14Z2012-11-08T10:07:52Z<p>Prestidigitation doesn't even say in the text it affects creatures at all. It says what "won't" work on a creature, but not what will. Nor does it ever clarify Saving Throw 'see text'.</p>Prestidigitation doesn't even say in the text it affects creatures at all. It says what "won't" work on a creature, but not what will. Nor does it ever clarify Saving Throw 'see text'.Dennis Baker (Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16)2012-11-08T10:07:52ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationDiego Rossihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#272012-11-08T07:28:14Z2012-11-08T07:28:14Z<p>It don't say "willing" anywhere. </p>
<p>As I did say I think that the RAI is that it should not affect a unwilling target. RAW they work perfectly.
<br />
Sadly, a few cantrips have a problem: they bypass any magical resistance and ST. Probably the Developers thought: "They are only 1/2 spells, so they will be used only for flavour, no need to give them a ST or be affected by spell resistance". </p>
<p>So I want to embarrass the countess during a important social gathering?
<br />
Use prestidigitation and make her smell as she has soiled herself.
<br />
I need to be a bit careful not to be seen, but it isn't hard to do. </p>
<p>I want to create trouble at a banquet? Change the flavour or food, making it appear spoiled or even poisoned. 0% chance of noticing that it is a unreal effect unless you use detect magic (it isn't even an illusion).</p>It don't say "willing" anywhere.
As I did say I think that the RAI is that it should not affect a unwilling target. RAW they work perfectly.
Sadly, a few cantrips have a problem: they bypass any magical resistance and ST. Probably the Developers thought: "They are only 1/2 spells, so they will be used only for flavour, no need to give them a ST or be affected by spell resistance".
So I want to embarrass the countess during a important social gathering?
Use prestidigitation and make her...Diego Rossi2012-11-08T07:28:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationTelshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#262012-11-07T21:29:52Z2012-11-07T21:29:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Prestidigitation wrote:</div><blockquote><p>School universal; Level bard 0, magus 0, sorcerer/wizard 0
</p>
CASTING</p>
<p>Casting Time 1 standard action
<br />
Components V, S
<br />
EFFECT</p>
<p>Range 10 ft.
<br />
Target, Effect, or Area see text
<br />
Duration 1 hour
<br />
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no</p>
<p>[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
<br />
DESCRIPTION</p>
<p>Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.</blockquote><p>Please, tell me where exactly, it requires the target of the spell to be willing?
<p>Target, Effect, and Area say "see text" so we need to read the text.
<br />
Saving Throw also says "see text" so again, we need to read the text.</p>
<p><i>Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice.</i> Nothing here about willing creatures.</p>
<p><i>Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour.</i> Nothing here.</p>
<p><i>The effects are minor and have severe limitations.</i> Nope.</p>
<p><i>A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material.</i> Oh look, 1 pound of material, doesn't need to be willing either.</p>
<p><i>It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round.</i> 1-foot cube is mention, that's roughly the size of your head. No mention of willing though.</p>
<p><i>It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material.</i> Hmm, again, 1 pound of material, doesn't need to be willing.</p>
<p><i>It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters.</i> Can't deal damage or affect concentration. Ok, so I turn your hair pink. Did that deal damage or affect your concentration? Nope.</p>
<p><i>Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial.</i> No mention of willing creatures here.</p>
<p><i>The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components.</i> I'm seeing a pattern...</p>
<p><i>Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects.</i> Ok, no willing mentioned.</p>
<p><i>Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.</i> And to wrap it up, it still doesn't mention creatures have to be willing.</p>
<p>So, you can move 1 pound of material, color, clean, or soil 1-foot cube of material, or chill, warm or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. No where int he entirety of the spell description does it say, "target must be willing" for the spell to work. It gives size, and weight requirements only.</p>
<p>So there is nothing in the Prestidigitation that prevents the plot device in Kingmaker from working. There is also nothing in Prestidigitation that prevents you from coloring an enemies hair Pink, then hitting them with Dispel to trigger the effects of the Destructive Dispel feat.</p>Prestidigitation wrote:School universal; Level bard 0, magus 0, sorcerer/wizard 0
CASTINGCasting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range 10 ft.
Target, Effect, or Area see text
Duration 1 hour
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no
[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
DESCRIPTION
Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation...Tels2012-11-07T21:29:52ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Destructive Dispel + PrestidigitationIcyshadowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4mj?Destructive-Dispel-Prestidigitation#252012-11-07T14:24:09Z2012-11-07T14:24:09Z<p>When the plot starts to ignore the rules too often in favour of "good story-telling", the whole game eventually suffers for it.</p>
<p>That's how I believe it to be. I didn't even mention that scenario to the players since I knew the Wizard would point out the flaws in that plan.</p>When the plot starts to ignore the rules too often in favour of "good story-telling", the whole game eventually suffers for it.
That's how I believe it to be. I didn't even mention that scenario to the players since I knew the Wizard would point out the flaws in that plan.Icyshadow2012-11-07T14:24:09Z