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Pathfinder'izing Suikoden, is it possible?


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3 people marked this as a favorite.

I liked those a few years ago, and some of the fluff and stuff were nice.

Would it be possible/easy to convert that to Pathfinder/d20?

Some info:

Wikipedia

Suikoden Wikia

Suikosource

And... (sorry)... Tv Tropes

Star Voter 2013

Probably easier than Pathfinderizing Sudoku.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I've been thinking about this as well... Suikoden I think would be easier to convert than a lot of video game rpgs b/c its rune system uses spell slots instead of magic points. Really, you might be able to kajigger a system where every rune is like a domain or bloodline, and you can swap them out for a certain amount of cash to a runemaster.

Sharpening blades- you can already simulate this with the existing magic item creation rules, since you can improve a magic weapon by paying the cost difference from what the total cost of the new magic and the old magic weapon.

For the unite attacks, you might work these out as bonus teamwork feats.

There's also a few systems for mass combat in PF, so I would pick one you would like and go with it.

The biggest issue I think you'll run into is the sheer amount of characters that is typical for a Suikoden game. Get yourself a character generator, stat! (Hero Lab, PCGen, etc).


Dreaming Psion wrote:

I've been thinking about this as well... Suikoden I think would be easier to convert than a lot of video game rpgs b/c its rune system uses spell slots instead of magic points. Really, you might be able to kajigger a system where every rune is like a domain or bloodline, and you can swap them out for a certain amount of cash to a runemaster.

Sharpening blades- you can already simulate this with the existing magic item creation rules, since you can improve a magic weapon by paying the cost difference from what the total cost of the new magic and the old magic weapon.

For the unite attacks, you might work these out as bonus teamwork feats.

There's also a few systems for mass combat in PF, so I would pick one you would like and go with it.

The biggest issue I think you'll run into is the sheer amount of characters that is typical for a Suikoden game. Get yourself a character generator, stat! (Hero Lab, PCGen, etc).

Ha ha ha, yeah the hundreds of characters "needed". but mainly the classes/magic/equipment.

Suikoden could probably fit a retooled system as well.


A Suikoden would work very well for a Kingmaker game, gives you a reason to try and build up the 108 stars of destiny... yes I like this.


Maybe the Runes can be system used like Domains, for example: Maybe you could steal from the fire domain and maybe add some abilities from lets say..the fire Oracle..as you level up of course. We could make a sort of Ritual like system to bond Runes to character, that way our martial characters can get benefits.


Teiidae wrote:
Maybe the Runes can be system used like Domains, for example: Maybe you could steal from the fire domain and maybe add some abilities from lets say..the fire Oracle..as you level up of course. We could make a sort of Ritual like system to bond Runes to character, that way our martial characters can get benefits.

Advanced Runes, "True" Runes...

Some runes could give class features/abilities.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Belle Mythix wrote:

Ha ha ha, yeah the hundreds of characters "needed". but mainly the classes/magic/equipment.

Suikoden could probably fit a retooled system as well.

As far as classes go, I'd center it around magic and physical combat progression. From memory of my past experience, there was like three major general "tiers" of characters. On the one end you had really weak but magically powerful characters you always wanted to stick in back but who could equip more runes and often had a unique rune or two. And on the other your really tough physical tanks who really sucked at magic and could only have one or two runes. Most of the characters as I remember were somewhere in between (so might be reflected in the d8, average BAB classes like magus, oracle, bard, etc being the most common sort of character classes).

Of course, you also had the really uber characters who could do everything (the hero from Suikoden I, Jeane, etc) and your useless lump characters, but these might not make for good pcs for some players.

I would base most of the spell-casting on some version of the domain or bloodline mechanics for PF, where each rune gives youa preset list of spells known for you to choose from. You can switch out your (admittedly limited) spells known by finding a runemaster to switch out runes you own, but this takes time and money akin to crafting a magic item or scribing spells into a spellbook.

Ideally, most characters (even normally nonspellcasters and monsters!) should have the potential of equipping one rune and casting spells from it- perhaps with a delayed progression.


Dreaming Psion wrote:
Belle Mythix wrote:

Ha ha ha, yeah the hundreds of characters "needed". but mainly the classes/magic/equipment.

Suikoden could probably fit a retooled system as well.

As far as classes go, I'd center it around magic and physical combat progression. From memory of my past experience, there was like three major general "tiers" of characters. On the one end you had really weak but magically powerful characters you always wanted to stick in back but who could equip more runes and often had a unique rune or two. And on the other your really tough physical tanks who really sucked at magic and could only have one or two runes. Most of the characters as I remember were somewhere in between (so might be reflected in the d8, average BAB classes like magus, oracle, bard, etc being the most common sort of character classes).

Of course, you also had the really uber characters who could do everything (the hero from Suikoden I, Jeane, etc) and your useless lump characters, but these might not make for good pcs for some players.

I would base most of the spell-casting on some version of the domain or bloodline mechanics for PF, where each rune gives youa preset list of spells known for you to choose from. You can switch out your (admittedly limited) spells known by finding a runemaster to switch out runes you own, but this takes time and money akin to crafting a magic item or scribing spells into a spellbook.

Ideally, most characters (even normally nonspellcasters and monsters!) should have the potential of equipping one rune and casting spells from it- perhaps with a delayed progression.

S4 hero is a bit more melee focussed while S5 prince is more balanced, there are also special skills/abilities and all.

... If my PS2 didn't break...


What would be the Rune slot/level progression? 0 to 9 or 1 to 4 (then 2 to 5 then 3 to 6) like Suikoden?


interesting note, The True Runes should be treated like artifacts. I think it would be interesting maybe if they were intelligent, kinda makes me think back to Luc.


I've always wanted to run a Suikoden game, but it just seemed like too much work. Premise would be playing Suikoden 2 from Jowy's side, basically, with a core support cast including Sarah (from Suikoden 3) as a counter to Luc in Riou's army, Lucia, etc... Ultimately, story would portray Leknaat as a more morally grey, neutral entity than the series tends to depict her as, queitly orchestrating and encouraging the two friends to renew the battle between their runes for her own ends.

Would have stats for lots of characters and different sessions, missions, or quests would involve having players pick up sheets for and playing as specific stars of destiny, rather than the same party all the time.

But...way too much work.

I'm not too well versed in D&D 4E, and I really don't like it, but unfortunately I think it may be a better base system to do this with.


Keep everything the same, just come up with your own story and 108 stars of destiny. You can Make Rune magic items or magic tattoo they can wear, and true rune artifacts. That takes the rings and face slots. Have the runes cast X spell so many times a day based on level of character.

No need to make new spells you there enough spell in all the book to simulate. I ran a Campaign in 3.0 D&D and use Suikoden as style. Started off with a quest find the 1st star (who was an npc child of destiny). They where to protect him and keep him safe at all cost. The group had to raise the child. Until he was 17 and he started out at age 8. The PC took the roles of the NPC general and closest friends. I ran it for over 3 years. They got to about level 27 before I got burnt out and need a break. I made the game to go all the way to level 40. I the main quest was inspired by dragon quest games 1 and 4. Castlevina Symphony of the Night and necro lord Inspired me, they had to help half vampire Prince destroy his dad. They got to keep me to how my group got there castle at about level 15. They had to rebuild it. I also had touch of Chrono Trigger and Chrono cross in there as well as Disney Gargoyle that they had to help protect there land. The Chinese Novel Journey West. and more lead to this huge world that they only got to explore half of it.

I even did some of the mini games from Suikoden Cooking challenges. They had to hunt down rare ingredients so the cook can win the competition.

Just bring the character and current rules in a Suikoden style world. Don't try to implement all the little things weapon sharping, or making new rules for classes it a lot of work will just complected thing more then need and could break the game.

Make your pcs the guys like Victor,Hix,Flik,Gremio. Make the Hero an npc, Strong Quite type. The pc have been child friends or in his stead for years, or you can make them quest him, out then get castle and build army. That was the best part of Suikoden was finding the 108 stars. Watching the castle grow. You could give the pc team up feat free, that they can take at any point and apply to each other or to one of the 108 npc you place in the game.

So give your players that you will get what you want and save your self a ton of work. You will have to come up with your on rules for any mini game style stuff you want to put in or mass combat battles for army fights.

oh yeah for the characters only make like 20 or 30 battle ready npcs the rest just the kind that stay in the castle type. even if you do a castle raid you can just say they defend there section with out issue or they fail. you don't really need there stats. For black smiths just say they are expert of x level with craft magic arms and armor feats. and have the pc give them money to have magic items made for them. Just say there craft skill is x you don't need to justify because they are npcs. The pcs won't care as long as they can get gear cheaper then normal.


And the silly selection of weapons.


I believe DeathQuaker was working on this a few years ago. I'm not sure where she is with it now.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Belle Mythix wrote:

And the silly selection of weapons.

I wouldn't worry about designing hundreds of offbeat or oddball weapons. Between the APG, Inner Sea World Guide, and Ultimate Combat, you've got plenty of weapons to pick your choice to reskin for any given Suikoden item you could wish for. Just pick the closest weapon and take the rules from it.


Dreaming Psion wrote:
Belle Mythix wrote:

And the silly selection of weapons.

I wouldn't worry about designing hundreds of offbeat or oddball weapons. Between the APG, Inner Sea World Guide, and Ultimate Combat, you've got plenty of weapons to pick your choice to reskin for any given Suikoden item you could wish for. Just pick the closest weapon and take the rules from it.

Eating Chopsticks, Books, conductor wand, kniting needles, Demonic Hand-Puppet! ...

Grand Lodge

Improvised Weapon! Heh heh... or like that trait that allows you to use your "End of the World Sign" as an improvised weapon with no penalty!


Aeshuura wrote:
Improvised Weapon! Heh heh... or like that trait that allows you to use your "End of the World Sign" as an improvised weapon with no penalty!

They aren't "improvised" in suikoden, they can be enchanted/upgraded like other weapons.

Grand Lodge

That doesn't stop you from making the damage equivalent of the improvised weapon. ^_^


+5 Keen Human-Bane Hand Puppet.

8D


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I always love the Idea love the idea of +5 Merciful mug of never ending Ale. I don't think a hand puppet could be keen, it not a slashing weapon lol. I like said just use fluff and style from game but make your own story. It is fun as help. My players did not want to give me a break after 3 years. They where alwasy wonding who the next recurit would be to the and what they could do.

Grand Lodge

Actually, that hand puppet had these sharp fangs! :p


Hand Puppet User


I totally forgot about her. Yeah those claws are slashing they can be keen. I need to play part III again I don't remember to much about it other then the main characters and Luc part in the story. I am not I could make it thru IV again. V was awesome.


I my opinion 4 wasn't that bad, the setting was kinda cool and the rune canon are awesome, it was just the Cast of characters that kinda sucked. I was spoiled with the characters from 3 and 5... I loved Shiba(poor lizard, thinks he's fat) and Zegai is just a badass. However 4 was the first game where I got all 108 stars and i beat the game at lvl 57, most people say you need to be atleast 80( i proved them wrong).


Teiidae wrote:
I my opinion 4 wasn't that bad, the setting was kinda cool and the rune canon are awesome, it was just the Cast of characters that kinda sucked. I was spoiled with the characters from 3 and 5... I loved Shiba(poor lizard, thinks he's fat) and Zegai is just a badass. However 4 was the first game where I got all 108 stars and i beat the game at lvl 57, most people say you need to be atleast 80( i proved them wrong).

what were your weapon(s) level(s)?


the weapon were roughly around 15...if I remember correctly, too a long ass time to beat and countless thought of destroying the Game.


Dotting for when I can dig up my notes on converting Suikoden and FFT/FFTA (both in the same notebook).

I remember Suikoden required little work to actually accomplish in a usable manor.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Freehold DM wrote:
I believe DeathQuaker was working on this a few years ago. I'm not sure where she is with it now.

Yes I was. Drafts I had posted online:

Overview is here on GoogleDocs

Races are on my blog here

Runes and Rune Magic are here

Some of these items might have been revised since, I'd have to go through my notes and see. I think I may have updated the Runes document.

Anything posted here are DRAFTS, and surely need lots of work.

I had also started working on classes and feats. New classes included the Mage, Rune Sage, and Mastercrafter (which had trees where you focused on inventing gadgets, crafting magic consumables, or enhancing weapons and equipment). Somewhere here on the Paizo boards are my Mystic and Martial Artist classes which I was thinking about using to replace the Monk, which in my opinion as written doesn't quite reflect how martial artists or mystical hermit types in Suikoden worked.

And I wrote up the 108 Stars as a massive list of campaign traits.

I kind of burned out on the project and while I had people who offered to look at the stuff--as I was needing both feedback and ideas--I didn't get a lot of responsiveness, so I gave up. I may return to it at some point, but I had since turned my attention to my Slayers d20 conversion project and a d20 Modern revision instead.

If anything here appears to be of use to you, you are welcome to use it, but please do me the courtesy of giving me credit. Even as unfinished as it is, it still took a long time to develop.

Good luck! :)

Grand Lodge

I'd love to help proof reading, but time might be scarce... Suikoden is one of my favorite RPGs and really like the flavor. If I use anything of yours, I will certainly give you credit! Thanks for sharing!

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aeshuura wrote:
I'd love to help proof reading, but time might be scarce... Suikoden is one of my favorite RPGs and really like the flavor. If I use anything of yours, I will certainly give you credit! Thanks for sharing!

Sure. When I get home, I'll see if I can upload the other documents as well -- the runes link goes to spell runes, but I also wrote up support runes, amongst the other stuff mentioned above. I'd rather the material get used (even if only possibly) by someone than just sit on my hard drive.

I also look forward to seeing anything you come up with --- it is an awesome universe and has some truly unique traits that would be worth exploring in a table top RPG.


Colour me interested in helping out!


DeathQuaker...You're truly anointed by fate, I cannot way to see this thread grow. I will help in anyway I can.


Hmm, think a form of Modular Spell Slots would work for this?


I'm impressed...

maybe in the end we will end up with an Homebrew system.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
I believe DeathQuaker was working on this a few years ago. I'm not sure where she is with it now.

Yes I was. Drafts I had posted online:

Runes and Rune Magic are here

Some of these items might have been revised since, I'd have to go through my notes and see. I think I may have updated the Runes document.

Good luck! :)

... Your ideas about which ability score is used for casting make sense for most case... Viki would be one of the odd one, WIS would make some sense for her.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Belle Mythix wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
I believe DeathQuaker was working on this a few years ago. I'm not sure where she is with it now.

Yes I was. Drafts I had posted online:

Runes and Rune Magic are here

Some of these items might have been revised since, I'd have to go through my notes and see. I think I may have updated the Runes document.

Good luck! :)

... Your ideas about which ability score is used for casting make sense for most case... Viki would be one of the odd one, WIS would make some sense for her.

.... Little Viki, maybe. I don't see Viki being high Wis myself, she is the antithesis of alertness or common sense. She might be intuitive. I do see her as high Cha -- superficially, she IS part of the "cute girls" attack, and moreover she is generally likeable and has a notable personal presence. But that gets into character interpretation realms which often get tricky.

Thanks for bumping this, it reminded me to upload my Star of Destiny Traits list:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2OerAuy7RmwSVBjSmdCeVJ5a00/edit

It is a ROUGH DRAFT. There are bound to be inconsistencies and bad ideas. You'll note some stars have listed the characters who occupied the stars in the first 5 games, which was from a Stars list I had elsewhere, they're just a reminder of who was in the star to display why I might have given a character a certain ability.

What on god's green earth possessed me to write up 108 traits (even if many are similar) I will never know...

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also:

Command Runes (non spell runes that you activate to use its power):
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2OerAuy7RmwSGZrR04tZWxlZm8/edit

Effect Runes (non spell runes which provide a passive bonus or effect):
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2OerAuy7RmwTkpFRjBQSC1tRFE/edit

Same caveat about rough drafts apply, I know some effects are not explained well and I've got capitalization and italics all over the place where they shouldn't be.

I should also note all of this was written well before Ultimate Magic or Ultimate Combat came out so there aren't references to things like UC weapons and such.


Yowza...


DeathQuaker wrote:
Belle Mythix wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
I believe DeathQuaker was working on this a few years ago. I'm not sure where she is with it now.

Yes I was. Drafts I had posted online:

Runes and Rune Magic are here

Some of these items might have been revised since, I'd have to go through my notes and see. I think I may have updated the Runes document.

Good luck! :)

... Your ideas about which ability score is used for casting make sense for most case... Viki would be one of the odd one, WIS would make some sense for her.

.... Little Viki, maybe. I don't see Viki being high Wis myself, she is the antithesis of alertness or common sense. She might be intuitive. I do see her as high Cha -- superficially, she IS part of the "cute girls" attack, and moreover she is generally likeable and has a notable personal presence. But that gets into character interpretation realms which often get tricky.

Adult Viki is one of the characters that make me think "they have an ability score just for magic", or her score is just high enough to cast the spells but not to get bonus slots (3rd and 4th).


The thing is in order to cast higher level spells they would have to get the bonus spell slots.


I am so glad this thread started up again, it's kinda funny too, I just started playing Suikoden 3 again.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd be concerned about adding an ability score just for magic (such as "spirit") if it's something that only spellcasters will take and it is a dump stat for everyone else. Especially since this is a game where technically nearly anyone can cast a spell with a rune to some extent, so you'd lose out on people with minor degrees of talent, which is less reflective of how many characters in the game worked. (Although that's sometimes a problem with Cha anyway.)

I will note, in case the runes document didn't say it, one of the abilities of the mage class (which is only half written up) would be to be allow the character to swap Cha for Int (character's choice). So little Viki could be high Int, big Viki high Cha.

I suppose the rune sage class could have the same option, with Wisdom, if it were an issue.

And of course if anyone's adapting for their own works, do what works for you.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Yowza...

Is that a good yowza or a bad yowza?

Also, in other news, how did I not know a new Suikoden game had been released in Japan last year for the PSP?

That is cool. Unlikely it will be released in the US, though, sadly. (I don't have a PSP anyway.) The... (spoilered because OT rant follows, probably best to not read it if you don't want to read about ranting against fanboys)

Spoiler:

... idiot fanboys ruined Tierkreis's release in the US. The new game takes place in another world, like Tierkreis did. Suikoden Tierkreis was fantastically good, and all the fanboys shat on it because the creators dared to do something different. Really, given the original creator of Suikoden stopped after the first 2 or 3 games, the fanboys then shat on the later games because they weren't by the original creator, ALL WHILE still demanding more Suikoden games. Then a new creative team goes, "look, we can't make the fanboys happy with what we do in the original world, so let's make a new world using similar themes" -- and then that is criticized purely because it isn't in the original world and uses a different (though very similar) magic system. Even though actually Tierkreis uses broad Suikoden themes -- in my opinion -- extremely, extremely well. The excellent scope of characterization, interesting world build, unique races, complex politics, deep story about the effects of war on sentient beings, the themes of the importance of friendship... all there. And those to me are what is essential to a game labeled "Suikoden."

All ignored and hated on because it wasn't just Suikoden II in a new package.

So the fanboys wouldn't support the game and it otherwise wasn't marketed well, so it didn't sell well in the U.S., and now we in America probably won't ever see a localized Suikoden game ever again, because fanboys can't accept change or new ideas.

All of the above is emotional spew that is entirely my personal opinion. Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited by law.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Yowza...

Is that a good yowza or a bad yowza?

Also, in other news, how did I not know a new Suikoden game had been released in Japan last year for the PSP?

That is cool. Unlikely it will be released in the US, though, sadly. (I don't have a PSP anyway.) The... (spoilered because OT rant follows, probably best to not read it if you don't want to read about ranting against fanboys)

** spoiler omitted **...

There are a few differences between Spiritual Successor and New-Edition/Brand-Reboot

Final Fantasy barely manage the "Name's the same" thing at times, so Suikoden Tierkreis's problem might have been having Suikoden in the title. (just a thought)


TMDQ...

Spoiler:
I think it was more suikoden tactics than tiekiers, but that's just me. I willklook for my copy tonight and start it up. The suikoden world is simply too beloved and works on too many levels to be deviated from for very long.


Belle Mythix wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Yowza...

Is that a good yowza or a bad yowza?

Also, in other news, how did I not know a new Suikoden game had been released in Japan last year for the PSP?

That is cool. Unlikely it will be released in the US, though, sadly. (I don't have a PSP anyway.) The... (spoilered because OT rant follows, probably best to not read it if you don't want to read about ranting against fanboys)

** spoiler omitted **...

There are a few differences between Spiritual Successor and New-Edition/Brand-Reboot

Final Fantasy barely manage the "Name's the same" thing at times, so Suikoden Tierkreis's problem might have been having Suikoden in the title. (just a thought)

Also, this.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Spoiler:

But it was Suikoden -- it was a gathering of the 108 outlaw-warriors joining together to fight a war against tyrants (just like the original Chinese novel, which also does not take place in the same world as the Genso Suikoden RPGs ;) ). If they did it without calling it "Suikoden" then they'd just be accused of ripping Suikoden off.

I'm okay with differentiating the 5 Genso Suikoden games from the other games named Suikoden. That it was called Suikoden Tierkreis showed enough that it was different at a glance. IMO. Likewise this one's got some kind of subtitle going on.

I will stop talking about this now. Please resume discussing ideas for a Suikoden d20/Pathfinder game.

What would be the best class for a martial arts expert like Riou? Discuss.


I have Suikoden Tierkreis. Got it and my DSi XL on black friday two months ago. Wanting to make sure I got a copy before it became impossible to find was actually what spurred me to *get* a DS finally. I'll probably begin playing it soon, I got completely side tracked by Radiant Historia, which turned out to be one of the best RPGs I've ever played and completely engrossed me these past months. :)
(Glad I got RH when I did, too, just a few weeks later the print run seemed to have sold out on amazon and independent seller prices are climbing back up; apparently before Atlus released the 2nd print run, sellers were asking for up to $1000 for it!)

I do hope for a Suikoden 6 someday, I really like the setting. Even if it's the last one, just something centered in Harmonia and with Leknaat in a more prominent role to explain the remaining mysteries and tie up loose ends would be phenominal. I still like my concept of S2 from Jowy's perspective w/ Leknaat playing both sides to further some greater agenda involving having the rune of beginning wage war, and coming off far greyer and less good than she has up to now to lead into the "final game," too.

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