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Getting the most bang for my buck. WIzard Questions. Feats / Spells / ACTION ECONOMY


Advice


Howdy guys, as the subject line suggest, im trying to optimize squeezing the most juice I can out of MY turn, not necessarily that of adding more and more minions, although I plan on using those too ;)

so here are the specs

Elven Wizard (Conjuration school (korvosa), with Teleportation Sub-school) Opposition Schools (Enchantment or Necromancy)
Familiar (Compsognathus)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 22

Feats
1) Scribe Scroll, Acadamae Graduate
3) Spell Focus(conj)
5) Augment Summoning, Inscribe Magical Tatto
7) Improved Familiar

Traits
Reactionary = +2 Ini
Magical Lineage (No spell yet selected)

Pretty robust spell list currently, and some nice DCs to boot, BUT here is where im going with this.

I've found that I dont use my move or swift action as often as I'd like, even with my Shift(su). Also I'd like to use my move action with spells like aqueous orb. I'll explain why in a bit.

I like several spell combinations, but by far my favorite are cold spells, (mainly backstory reasons). Anyways he has an inclination towards the cold, even though he has yet to be able to show to the group. Two metamagic feats come to mind, 1 of which is already approved by my GM. Rime and Freezing. Rime is a +1 to the Spell, and Freezing is a +0. So any spell with both those properties immeadiately has a fort save, and gains the entangled condition. Combine that with most damage spells that target reflex, any cold damage spell, will target two saves with one spell. Hell if i could throw in a Will save there too id do it, but thats not top priority.

I have 3 actions. Standard, swift, and move. Standard will be taken up by summoning, except the first round where Ill be summoning some spell that uses my movement action to move it i.e. flaming sphere, aqueous orb? Yes I said standard. Acadamae Graduate allows summons on a standard action with a passed fort save if not i gain the fatigued condition. Well, I have found a way to delay the onset of the fatigued condition using the bard spell Invigorate in a wand cheap level 1 cost, that my familiar will use on me at the beginning of battle.

So battle Scenario
Round 1
Familiar casts invigorate with UMD invigorate wand
Standard follow that with casting my movement spell (aqueous orb)

Swift action (shift for better positioning, some cold damage spell that targets multiple saves, or some sort of defensive spell? anything that isnt a stadard like vanish?)

Move into position.

Round 2
Standard Summon using acadamae graduate

Swift action (shift for better positioning, some cold damage spell that targets multiple saves, or some sort of defensive spell? anything that isnt a stadard like vanish?)

Move the aquoeus orb around the battlefield and laugh at the ridiculous amount of s@$$ i have out by the second round.

Here's the main issues. WHAT SPELL?!?! I'm planning long term here guys. There is going to be a single spell that defines my character besides the crazy amount of summons ;). Hence the swift and movement action economy being so important. I'm talking preferred spell / spell perfection / magical lineage. I need the lowest possible spell slot that is only a swift action to cast. I need it to be pretty much spammable by level 15. So either using Quickened metamagic, or already starting that way. 2 come to mind. Cold Ice Strike starts as a swift action level 6 spell, and cone of cold starts as a 5th level standard action, but can be quickened for free using spell perfection, and adding rime and freezing would still leave it at a level 5 spell after magical lineage. Add a +1 metamagic rod to taste disruptive? selective so im not hitting team mates? etc...

ALSO which spell for movement? Aqueous orb ive looked into is a really solid choice, no pun intended, because when you hit it with a cold damaging spell it freezes solid with the enemy trapped inside. Really awesome spell combo IF it works... It allows like 3-4 saves to prevent that from happening. That being said without a metamagic feat added in its only a level 3 spell making it quite useful across multiple encounters. (spell economy)

Finally comes Feat progression. You all saw the feats I had that were already done, but what next and in what order? which metamagic feats should be rods? (remember im a wizard no spontaneous casting for me, unless you count preferred spell). Disruptive , rime, freezing, quickened, dazing, selective all seem like solid choices, and thats not including spells that can extend the range, width duration or linger for multiple save attempts.

All of these questions are tough guys i know, but they cant really be split up without giving you the whole picture.

Thanks again to all those that take the time to read through this Gigantic post and respond! Hopefully i was as clear as to what i wanted as possible.


Any one any ideas? are my questions too confusing / difficult? is further clarification necessary?


i guess ill put a TL;DR version see if people are more willing to assist.

Leveling Wizard wants to pick a solid ice (descriptor) spell, that is the lowest spell slot possible, and that can be cast as a swift action, and one solid spell ( any descriptor ) that can be used as a move action.

If you want more details look at the post above, or just ask, i really dont mind re-typing if i can get some help on this

Cheliax

People probably doesn't answer because your post is extremely long... as for your about feats I would recommend that you at lvl 10 took the arcane discovery "opposition research". I don't what you could do about your action economy "problem" except for quicken spell perhaps with a rod.

Cheliax

Keep in mind, the moment you use that Shift, your turn is done. It doesn't work the same as dimensional door, and you can't augment it with feats to improve that.


The Sleeping Dragon wrote:

i guess ill put a TL;DR version see if people are more willing to assist.

Leveling Wizard wants to pick a solid ice (descriptor) spell, that is the lowest spell slot possible, and that can be cast as a swift action, and one solid spell ( any descriptor ) that can be used as a move action.

If you want more details look at the post above, or just ask, i really dont mind re-typing if i can get some help on this

AFAIK, Cold Ice Strike is the only cold descriptor spell that comes out of the box as a swift action. As such, it's not bad for what you're trying to do, but you won't have the option to cast 2 per round like you can for the traditional spell perfection approach of quickening a spell and using a standard action to cast it again (possibly modified by other MM feats/rods). You only get one swift action per turn, regardless of what else you do, and can't use your move/standard to cast a second swift action or quickened spell.

For that reason, and the fact that you'd have to wait an eternity to start using it, IMO cold ice strike starts looking pretty bad for spell perfection/magical lineage (its still a fine spell in its own right though).

Cone of cold isn't bad either, but again, we're talking quite a while before you can start reaping the benefits. Ice Storm comes online a couple levels earlier. The damage is pretty unappealing, but it provides very nice control, especially when you stack rime on top of its vanilla effects. Aqueous Orb is a great control spell on its own, but adding Rime to it doesn't really add much (except that they stay entangled after escaping the orb...probably not worth the investment).

Otherwise, with your option to change non-fire spells to cold via the 3PP freezing spell feat (which will then qualify for rime), I'd really target a lower level alternative to get this up and running asap. Plus choosing a 3rd level (or lower) spell, you can use lesser metamagic rods to supplement your options for cheap.

Contenders IMO, in no particular order:

1) Magic Missile for long range, auto-hit, auto-entangles out of 1st level slots. Can affect multiple targets. Downside is 1 round duration on the entangle.

2) Acid arrow for continual single target damage/lockdown and forced concentration checks out of 2nd level slots. Since they take cold damage each round (due to freezing spell damage/descriptor conversion), the duration of the entangle will continually refresh, so it'll last as long as the spell normally does + 2 rounds. If you hit, they're hosed for a while.

3) Frost Fall can be a pretty darn good control option for the same reason (the damage is over time if you can force them to stay in the area so rime duration refreshes itself; plus staggered + entangled is pretty mean). Its also a 2nd level spell, and is already a cold spell. You may occasionally be able to get additional targets in the 5ft. radius, but enlarge might also be worth considering for that spell to make it somewhat larger.

4) Force Punch to push the target away from you (or back into a hazard/spell) while also adding entangled (via freezing/rime) to keep them where you put them. Sounds pretty brutal. 3rd level spell.

5) Lightning Bolt for okay damage, multi-target, and virtual auto-damage/entangle (for anything without evasion at any rate). Solid for a 3rd level slot.

Plus, you can always heighten any of these on the fly via preferred spell to increase DC as you see fit.

I'm going to include one more option for those without access to freezing spell, or if you're really in love with a fire spell for this kind of application. Likely not worth it for the OP, but for completeness sake:

You can also take a 1 level dip in tattooed sorcerer. This grants the free varisian tattoo feat (+1 CL for school of choice, this gets the CL you lose from the level dip refunded to you), which is solid (plus the ability to have your familiar meld with you, which is nice and also cool). Regardless, you'll need the Elemental (water/cold) bloodline to access the relevant arcana. Note this is the vanilla elemental bloodline, and not the primal version that adds damage. If one were to also go crossblooded, just pick another arcana you think could be useful to get that as well, but that's certainly not necessary.

Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to match the type of your bloodline. This also changes the spell's type to match the type of your bloodline.

Since your bloodline will be water/cold, you may now freely change any energy spell to a cold spell. Whether you can also apply rime spell to it is debatable (because rime would need to be applied upon memorization, when the spell isn't yet a cold spell). Many DMs will let that fly regardless, but even if they don't, use of rods to apply the effect after conversion should work just fine.

Of course, this opens up all of the previous options for use by those without access to freezing spell, but relevant to the OP, it also opens up fire descriptor spells to rime metamagic.

Most notably:

1) Fireball. Fantastic range, okay damage, awesome AoE. There's a reason its the controller/blaster staple spell.

2) Burning Arc/Scorching Ray for flexible spells combining solid damage with potential for multiple targets. Reflex or Ranged touch, respectively.

3) Snapdragon Fireworks. Lasts 1 round per level. After initial standard action cast, you can now use a MOVE action for the duration to do negligible (1d4) damage while applying entangled + dazzled to what you target. Obviously, this combines quite well with virtually anything once you get it rolling, since you've still got your standard action to do with as you please, especially if you have the shift(Su) ability to still be able to move.

Happy hunting.


Taesla
Yea I figured as much and hence wrote the TL;DR version after 2 days of no response. That being said, I feel as though especially when talking specific need / wants you need to give the whole picture, not just a piece, if not your responses will be just that pieces, that dont really fit with your puzzle. As far as opposition research goes its already been considered, but im trying to focus more on metamagic feats especially for taking perfected spell. Anyways thanks for your contribution


Lamontius
I understand that it works as per the spell Dimension Door, but there are a lot of gray areas there. Lets talk about the feat you are probably referring too, which many posts have already brought up, Dimensional Agility. Shift is a (su), and the text reads as follows..

At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Well from a couple of threads that I have read, and I may be in fact wrong from this, most people agree that house-ruling that dimensional agility works for shift is not a problem, but according to RAW that it cannot be applied because it is neither a spell, or a spell-like ability. On the same note it either works as the spell dimension door or it doesnt, if it does not due to RAW, then it is just an example of how the supernatural ability funtions and not the spell itself. Hence not only does dimensional agility feat not apply but neither does the restriction of your turn ending upon its use. This is not written anywhere in the description of Shift(su), but clearly stated in Dimension door.

I agree with most, that if you are willing to spend a feat to only allow you to continue your turn uninterrupted while still spending your only swift action to do so that it is not game-breaking and can be a very useful *o poop* button, but also still keeping the prerequisites in mind.
Dimensional Agility Prereq. : Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.
Hence you would still need to be able 1 of the 2 to meet the prereq. So as a 5th level wizard w/ dimension door learned, you meet that requirement.

So either it works or it doesnt. Just my two cents for what its worth. :)


What level are you starting the adventure at?

As soon as possible, you should prestige into bloatmage. Bloatmage allows you to grab one of each spell and use the spells multiple times with blood points. Also, Spellslinger archetype is great. Gives you a +1 to +5 on the saves for a variety of attacks.

Make sure to look at your Arcane Discoveries. Replace your 5th level bonus feat with opposition research(one less opposition school) or Fast Study(for quick on demand spell).

And at 15th levle, learn the true name of an outsider and force him to help you with things.

Cheliax

johnlocke90 wrote:

Make sure to look at your Arcane Discoveries. Replace your 5th level bonus feat with opposition research(one less opposition school) or Fast Study(for quick on demand spell).

And at 15th levle, learn the true name of an outsider and force him to help you with things.

He is more interested in metamagic feats than arcane discoveries, besides opposition research requires you to be lvl 9.

@the sleeping dragon
You ninjaed me on the TL:DR wasn't there when I began reading.


MT

As per usual your insight and advice is always welcome. ;)

That being said i think there might have been some mix up. I am not going to be casting the cold spell twice in one round. The standard action should be taken up by summons, while my move action should be taken up by spells like you suggested, snapdragon fireworks, flaming sphere, aqueous orb.. etc. any others

The Swift action is my concern although I think you have hit the nail on the head with this one.

Yes the freezing metamagic feat makes all spells that do not originally have the descriptor (fire) to turn to a cold spell, (although Id like one that already was, to add an additional save to the BBEG). Thusly, allowing for the rime to also entangle said creature. Im searching for lower level spell slots because I do want to be able to use lesser rods to enchance them. Many of the spells you named are good choices, but im not sure I would have them as magical lineage / preferred spell / Spell Perfection. The one that id have to say that looks tastiest there id have to say is the lightning bolt. Its the same tier as fireball, using a reflex save, bad vs. rogues, good for most other things, hits multiple targets while still dishing out decent damage

You hit a nail on the head with the fireball. It unfortunately only works if you have the build you stated or are an evoker, in which case spell penetration, and the like become must have feats. While for the conjurer thats his whole gimmick. Battlefield control with mooks that just hit your face or find some other alternatives to your SR. So Spell Penetration takes a backseat to some other more necessary feats.

I was also looking at dragons breath. It is no longer a 3rd level spell or under (so much for lesser metamagic rods), but if variety is the spice of life the choice between a conal spell or a line, not to mention the change of types for the JIC, it really is useless fighting with cold spells, now I can change the type that suits me no longer benefit from say rime, and freezing, but maybe heighten it? or some other meta magic effect? Selective? something to that effect. Spell perfection means its always a swift action for me with quickened. makes it a 8th level spell, plus selective for 9th level spell equivalent for still only a 4th level spell slot. Dazing would be great , but I think it becomes past the point that you can no longer quicken it. Thoughts?

Again thanks always for contributing in my crazy ass posts! :D


Also MT +1
Always <3 completelness sake! :D

for

Quote:


Likely not worth it for the OP, but for completeness sake:


Taesla
Hey sorry about the ninja! :P


MTCityHunter wrote:
The Sleeping Dragon wrote:

i guess ill put a TL;DR version see if people are more willing to assist.

Leveling Wizard wants to pick a solid ice (descriptor) spell, that is the lowest spell slot possible, and that can be cast as a swift action, and one solid spell ( any descriptor ) that can be used as a move action.

If you want more details look at the post above, or just ask, i really dont mind re-typing if i can get some help on this

1) Magic Missile for long range, auto-hit, auto-entangles out of 1st level slots. Can affect multiple targets. Downside is 1 round duration on the entangle.

2) Acid arrow for continual single target damage/lockdown and forced concentration checks out of 2nd level slots. Since they take cold damage each round (due to freezing spell damage/descriptor conversion), the duration of the entangle will continually refresh, so it'll last as long as the spell normally does + 2 rounds. If you hit, they're hosed for a while.

Unfortunately the Freezing Spell meta feat cannot be applied to a spell without a saving throw, so these two are out. Other than that though some good suggestions here.

Dotting for future ref! :)


Rumtum wrote:
Unfortunately the Freezing Spell meta feat cannot be applied to a spell without a saving throw, so these two are out.

Right you are, good catch. You can tell my rules familiarity goes out the window when 3rd party stuff shows up, since my group never uses those sources, lol. I was thinking those two were pretty powerful options considering what's normally possible with rime. Automatic entangles (without the normal exceptions like evasion), even at 1 round duration is pretty powerful out of 1st level slots. And the Acid Arrow version would be just sick. It'd be a virtual game over button for any caster, and still be good against anything else (long as you hit). I suppose its definitely for the best that those two don't work.

The Sleeping Dragon wrote:
As per usual your insight and advice is always welcome. ;)

No worries, always fun to spitball ideas.

The Sleeping Dragon wrote:
That being said i think there might have been some mix up. I am not going to be casting the cold spell twice in one round.

Yeah I know spamming/casting the same spell twice isn't your intent, just wanted to make sure you'd considered it wouldn't even be an option with cold ice strike.

The Sleeping Dragon wrote:
The one that id have to say that looks tastiest there id have to say is the lightning bolt. Its the same tier as fireball, using a reflex save, bad vs. rogues, good for most other things, hits multiple targets while still dishing out decent damage

I'd also consider LB one of the frontrunners for you, although it does lose one of FB's major advantages: the range. Its certainly not deal breaking, but having to start the line at your fingertips is somewhat limiting. But its obviously more precise than FB and you won't blow everything in the room (or your allies) to pieces with it, so there's that.

The Sleeping Dragon wrote:
You hit a nail on the head with the fireball. It unfortunately only works if you have the build you stated or are an evoker, in which case spell penetration, and the like become must have feats. While for the conjurer thats his whole gimmick. Battlefield control with mooks that just hit your face or find some other alternatives to your SR. So Spell Penetration takes a backseat to some other more necessary feats.

Note, that while still nice to have, spell penetration isn't actually vital for a FB user since if you care about the damage at all, you'll likely be pumping CL via varisian tattoo, spell specialization, ioun stones, etc. And then when spell perfection kicks in, all the feat based bonuses (the 2 above and SP if you have it) all double, so you'll pretty much blow through SR anyway (off the top of my head, with spell perfection, you can hit CL 22 by 15th level even without spell penetration...or up to CL 26 with SP and GSP; and I'm sure there are plenty more ways to boost CL that I'm overlooking). Resistances/immunities are always an issue of course, but if you can convert your fireballs to iceballs, at least nothing is outright immune to both damage types.

The Sleeping Dragon wrote:
I was also looking at dragons breath...Thoughts?

I like dragon's breath a lot as a spell. But I sort of lump it into the same category as cold ice strike in your situation. Its still a great thing to memorize, just not a great thing to full on specialize in. It can be for the right build I suppose, but its main advantage is obviously versatility in targeting and damage type. And losing compatibility with lesser rods hurts a lot.

Still,if its versatility you want to emphasize, it can certainly work since you can apply different MM to it as the situation calls while also changing energy type and AoE shape. Unfortunately for a build focusing on the freezing spell/rime mechanic, you lose a lot of that focus if you ever switch the energy type away from cold, and you can already switch damage type (to cold at least), so it loses some degree of its luster. So I guess its a choice of specialization vs. versatility, and IMO Wizards don't have a versatility problem out of the box. I prefer to build a powerful specialty with feats, etc. and fall back on other options when that tool isn't ideal. Of course YMMV.


The Sleeping Dragon wrote:
The standard action should be taken up by summons, while my move action should be taken up by spells like you suggested, snapdragon fireworks, flaming sphere, aqueous orb.. etc.

BTW, I think you're on a good track with this line of thinking. Its really quite effective to specialize heavily in a direct damage option with a layer of control via rime/dazing/both in a conjuration heavy build. Even more so when you can still switch damage types. And maintaining the ability to move even if you use your move action for something else via Shift is very useful despite it ending your turn (and its also still an auto-grapple-escape).

For perspective/example, I'm playing a Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard currently who focuses heavily on Fireball via Varisian Tattoo, Magical Lineage, Spell Specialization (was burning hands until FB came online), and ultimately working towards dazing spell and spell perfection. He's taken a 1 level dip in crossblooded sorcerer as I described above (cold elemental bloodline to gain the ability to switch to cold as the situation calls and apply rime spell for more control, and draconic (gold) bloodline to do more damage with fire when its just damage I'm after).

[Note: Orc bloodline would have been more optimal than draconic to apply bonus damage on all spells, and would have been more optimal than cold elemental for pure raw damage purposes, but that bloodline, and stacking of per die damage bonuses were disallowed after we played a few levels and my burning hands was one-shotting everything and completely overshadowing the group. I agreed to tone it down since playing rocket tag with the GM doesn't lead anywhere good.]

Anyway, he's been really effective even post-nerf since anytime someone has fire immunity or resistance (or anytime I don't want to melt the room...we're playing CotCT, so largely urban setting), I can switch to cold to bypass that. Or if control is more important than raw damage, with rime I can go cold to add entangled. Dazing will come online later and add a whole other option. Plus with Preferred Spell, I never memorize fire/iceball, filling my slots with BFC/summons/situational spells and converting as needed, while adding appropriate metamagic on the fly. Its been really very fun so far.

Many times, he'll just cast those traditional wizard battlefield control spells and occasional summons he has memorized. While I'm heavily specialized in dealing damage/control with blasts, he still plays very much like a normal conjurer most of the time. Its just that BFC spells are so good out of the box, you don't really need to invest in them (edit: although as you know, investing in summons is very worthwhile also).

But ultimately, even playing like a "God-Wizard", having that can of direct damage whoop-ass up your sleeve is always fun!

Cheliax

TDS:

I think this is the part where I go dig up a bunch of RAW and argue with you about which one of us Shifting correctly with our Wizard characters...but...

...nah, just have fun with it. If it's cool in your game, it's cool in your game. If my GM wasn't so mean, I'd do it too.

And if my GM is reading this, I'm totally not who you think I am, I'm some other person not in your gaming group.

And I love you.

I mean, in a platonic, awesome-GM kind of way.


Why not just play a master summoner? They can summon as a standard action without needing any tricks to do it. They have slightly fewer spells, but then they get +11 summon monster spells per day which are at your maximum ability. And they last minutes per level instead of rounds per level.


I think he wants to stick to wizard without multi/prestige-classing

Cheliax

demontroll wrote:
Why not just play a master summoner? They can summon as a standard action without needing any tricks to do it. They have slightly fewer spells, but then they get +11 summon monster spells per day which are at your maximum ability. And they last minutes per level instead of rounds per level.

You could pretty much make this post in any thread, about any class.

Want to play a barbarian?

Might I suggest Master Summoner, instead?


Well, he is building his wizard to summon creatures as a standard action, so I thought why not compare that to a Summoner which can summon creatures as a standard action, but do it better. I am comparing Apples to Apples.


MTCityHunter wrote:
No worries, always fun to spitball ideas.

Agreed! I find it entertaining especially since this is really the first time I've ever really I personally started opening myself up to the possibility of Metamagic, and everything it can do.

As far as Cold Ice Strike is concerned, I worked out something a little crazy in my head... and bear with me it can mess with yours if you arent careful. Cold Ice Strike. Lvl 6 spell slot. Magical Lineage + Rime, still lvl 6. Freeze +0. Spell Perection CIS with Dazing Metamagic. You now target ALL saves. At level 15 this is 15d6 points of damage, as a swift action, that can leave a target at a quarter speed, -3 to attack rolls, -4 to dex, -1 to reflex save ( not including the lowered dex). An added concentration check for CASTYS (INSERTS AMBARBARIAN PLUG HERE). Oh, and wait lets not forget without a turn because they are dazed. All for a level 6 spell slot. The combined metamagic for that should come out to level 9 if I checked my math right.

Another spell I found last night, that isnt listed pretty much ANYWHERE and I found in the nether reaches of the D20pfsrd database, Ice Spears.

This one is... interesting. It tastes like Toppling Magic Missle... but well hasnt been done by my fellow players. :P

Ice Spears is a level 3 conjuration spell (benefits from my SF conj.)with rime, freezing, and magical lineage still level 3, and eligible for lesser rods. Good so far. Damage is mediocre, but then again its only a level 3 spell slot. 2d6 cold +2d6 bludgeoning. Heres the awesome part.

:
"The explosive growth can also trip foes. When the spears erupt from the ground, they make a combat maneuver check against any targets that take damage from the spears, with a total bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. Each additional ice spear beyond the first that strikes a single foe grants a +10 bonus to this CMB check. If the check succeeds, the ice spears knock the foe prone. A successful Reflex save halves the damage and prevents the trip attempt."

So at a CL of 16, plus an INT mod of +6. You are now looking at a 22 BASE trip attempt. If the creature is Large, you then get 3 more attempts on the same creature... adding it all the ways to a 52 CMB vs, they're CMD check. Short of a tarrasque, or something immune to being tripped, it is now on the floor prone. Add in that its still a level 3 spell, with an avg of 44 pts of damage, albeit not yet swift. Metamagic rod quicken anyone? Spell perfection for... well s++# anything you want if they fail one of the 4 reflex saves they are SLOWED, meaning only 1 move or standard action... and they are entangled and you know... Prone. NGL makes my mouth water a bit.

Lamontius,
Thanks! I really dont enjoy to argue, but I do enjoy to discuss! I'm quite sure you can dig up plenty of RAW to argue it. Our house has yet to decide on that particular yet, and I have just been playing it after my turn is over anyway, I usually err to the side of caution ,but it really doesnt interfere with most of my actions. So I havent used it in the middle of my actions mainly to just avoid the problem. Still waiting for a ruling though ;) It would make me think about what my natural feat progression would be accordingly. Also +1

Lamontius wrote:

And if my GM is reading this, I'm totally not who you think I am, I'm some other person not in your gaming group.

And I love you.

I mean, in a platonic, awesome-GM kind of way.

+2 for
Lamontius wrote:

Want to play a barbarian?

Might I suggest Master Summoner, instead?

:D

Demontroll,
You are probably right, but then again I really liked the teleportaion sub-school get out of jail free card with the Shift(su). Add in the 8th level ability to teleport your creatures on a stadard action, wherever you want ( within the range of the ability of course), to ensure they always get all of thier natural attacks... reeks of awesome.


The Sleeping Dragon wrote:
As far as Cold Ice Strike is concerned...Lvl 6 spell slot. Magical Lineage + Rime, still lvl 6. Freeze +0. Spell Perection CIS with Dazing Metamagic. You now target ALL saves. At level 15 this is 15d6 points of damage, as a swift action, that can leave a target at a quarter speed, -3 to attack rolls, -4 to dex, -1 to reflex save ( not including the lowered dex). An added concentration check for CASTYS (INSERTS AMBARBARIAN PLUG HERE). Oh, and wait lets not forget without a turn because they are dazed. All for a level 6 spell slot. The combined metamagic for that should come out to level 9 if I checked my math right.

I'm pretty sure I follow you, and it looks right to me. That's a pretty impressive combination. I see why you want to start with an Ice spell, but if I were playing the character at early levels, I just wouldn't want to wait that long. Still an awesome trick.

The Sleeping Dragon wrote:

Another spell I found last night, that isnt listed pretty much ANYWHERE and I found in the nether reaches of the D20pfsrd database, Ice Spears.

This one is... interesting. It tastes like Toppling Magic Missle... but well hasnt been done by my fellow players. :P

Ice Spears is a level 3 conjuration spell (benefits from my SF conj.)with rime, freezing, and magical lineage still level 3, and eligible for lesser rods. Good so far. Damage is mediocre, but then again its only a level 3 spell slot.

WOW, I really like that spell. Hadn't seen that before. Thanks for bringing that to my attention! Certainly the problem with toppling spell (and the 1 spear targeted version of this) is that CL + INT just doesn't scale fast enough to keep up with CMD scores. But targeting something larger that you can hit with more than one spear definitely more than mitigates that problem.

Quicken is probably the clear choice for metamagic on this one either via rod or spell perfection, with the other applying dazing. That's also a pretty nice combo. Ultimately you'll target 2 saves to have something dazed, entangled, and prone. Lol, GG. The damage IS pretty low though, so that's unfortunate I suppose.

Still a pretty nice option. I think I like it better than lightning bolt for your build. Probably still less than fireball for my build, although I'll definitely be learning this spell asap and using it in vanilla form!

Qadira

Combine with Ice storm for added fun.


Yea... Its pretty great. Im not 100% on ice storm though.

Qadira

Rime magical lineage ice storm followed by a <wayanged> ice spears is pretty strong.

Sleet storm also works, at one level lower. Rimed Icestorm means that the victims will be half move in difficult terrain.

Either of the storms, cast first, gives the victims -2 on their reflex safe, with +4 on the CMB check.

Entangling them with a rimed ice storm subtracks 2 from their reflex save against the ice sphere.

At 11th level, the save is -4 and the CMD is presuming +6 modifier is
4 + 6 + 4 +30 = +44 before dice...


maybe im missing something obvious here... but what is a <wayanged> ice spears?

Does anyone else have any interesting ideas or thoughts to add to this post? Really interested in what I should / could do with this build.


i believe he is referencing wayang spellhunter trait, which is a regional trait that is exactly like magical lineage, only it has to be a level 3 or less spell. since magical lineage is a magic trait you can have both. i could be wrong though i havent read the entire thread.

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