paizo.com Recent Posts in Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?paizo.com Recent Posts in Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?2012-11-05T19:19:23Z2012-11-05T19:19:23ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Paulcynichttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#382013-01-28T01:01:39Z2013-01-28T01:01:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Yosarian wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">cartmanbeck wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
You can absolutely "adopt" a real tiger as your companion, using the Leadership feat. </blockquote><p>:blinks:
<p>Leadership? Really? For a tiger?</p>
<p>Why not with the Handle Animal skill? That actually has rules for rearing a wild animal yourself and then training it for combat, and it makes a lot more sense for a druid. </blockquote><p>Yeah, exactly true. Handle Animal allows the taming or purchasing of a domesticated Dire Tiger, which can be trained for combat. With a +11 bonus to Handle Animal at level 1, one could rear up to a 6 HD animal. That includes Lions and Tigers. I have specialized in Handle Animal on a thought-experiment Bard and got his Handle Animal to +14 at level 1, that's a Dire Lion.
<p>Even if one reels it in, having a +8 at level 1 allows for the domestication and training of Leopards (3 HD) which are medium animals, can be purchased for 100g, and who have 5 attacks with pounce. No leopards? how about some Aurochs then, they're 50g apiece, train 2 of them and now you've got two combat animals with Trample (2d6+9), who can also Stampede. </p>
<p>I agree with the many voices saying that Animal Companions are weaker because they are a class feature. But also looking at their stats, they're juvenile until level 4 or 7, at which point they gain full size and stats of a mature animal of their type.</p>
<p>Honestly, just go with Handle Animal in the early levels /wreck the campaign. And ;P If your Aurochs dies, now you have dinner.</p>Yosarian wrote:cartmanbeck wrote:
You can absolutely "adopt" a real tiger as your companion, using the Leadership feat.
:blinks: Leadership? Really? For a tiger?
Why not with the Handle Animal skill? That actually has rules for rearing a wild animal yourself and then training it for combat, and it makes a lot more sense for a druid. Yeah, exactly true. Handle Animal allows the taming or purchasing of a domesticated Dire Tiger, which can be trained for combat. With a +11 bonus to Handle...Paulcynic2013-01-28T01:01:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Shar Tahlhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#372013-01-25T20:02:31Z2013-01-25T20:02:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">AnimateDream wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Two words:
</p>
Weapon Finesse </blockquote><p>Only if their dex is higher than their strength, which is not the cast for most.AnimateDream wrote:Two words:
Weapon Finesse
Only if their dex is higher than their strength, which is not the cast for most.Shar Tahl2013-01-25T20:02:31ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Ed-Zerohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#362013-01-25T19:37:25Z2013-01-25T19:37:25Z<p>Just one last excercise in being ridiculous with this.</p>
<p>Dire Tiger Fighter Pugilist via Leadership: CR 8
<br />
Levels: Fighter 12
<br />
Size: Large
<br />
AC: 17 (2 dex, +6 nat, -1 size)
<br />
HP: 171 (14d8+42+12d10) [average roll, max is: 274 hp]
<br />
BAB: 12/7/2
<br />
2 claws +36 (2d4+18 plus grab), bite +34 (2d6+18/19-20 plus grab)
<br />
Rake: (2 claws, +34, 2d4+16)
<br />
Stats:
<br />
STR: 30, DEX: 15, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
<br />
Saves: Fort: 20, Ref: 15, Will 9
<br />
Feats: Weapon Focus (+1 atk, Claw), Weapon Specialization (+2 dam, Claw), Greater Weapon Focus (+1 atk), Greater Weapon Specialization (+2 dam, Claw)
<br />
Fighter Bonuses: Weapon Training 2 (+2 atk, +4 dam)
<br />
Attack Bonuses: Racial 18, BAB 12, WF 1, GWF 1, Weapon Training 2, Leveling 2 = 36
<br />
Damage Bonuses: STR 10, WS 2, GWS 2, Weapon Training 4</p>
<p>Attack Structure (Due to BAB, not sure if this is correct):
<br />
1) Claw +36, Claw +36 , Claw +36, Bite +32
<br />
2) Claw +31
<br />
3) Claw +26 </p>
<p>Note: I'm only including the fighter only feats here as the other animals would be able to get all the same feats that are not fighter only otherwise.</p>
<p>vs</p>
<p>Dire Tiger Monk via Leadership: CR 8
<br />
Levels: Monk 12
<br />
Size: Large
<br />
AC: 20 (2 dex, +9 nat, -1 size)
<br />
HP: 159 (14d8+42+12d8) [average roll, max is: 250 hp]
<br />
BAB: 9/4
<br />
2 claws +36 (2d6+18 plus grab), bite +34 (2d6+18/19-20 plus grab)
<br />
Rake: (2 claws, +36, 2d6+18)
<br />
Stats:
<br />
STR: 30, DEX: 15, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
<br />
Saves: Fort: 20, Ref: 19, Will 18
<br />
Monk Bonuses: Unarmed Base Damage 2d6, NA +3
<br />
Attack Bonuses: Racial 18, BAB 9, Leveling 2 = 29
<br />
Damage Bonuses: STR 10, Leveling 2, 2d6 (instead of 2d4)</p>
<p>Attack Structure (Due to BAB, not sure if this is correct):
<br />
1) Claw +29, Claw +29, Claw +26, Bite +29
<br />
2) Claw +21</p>
<p>Flurry
<br />
1) Claw +33, Claw +33, Claw +28, Claw +28, Claw +24</p>
<p>Note: I'm almost positive I have something wrong posted in this one. It's interesting to note that Fighter is stronger than Monk here.</p>
<p>vs</p>
<p>Dire Tiger with the Animal Companion bonuses at 20:</p>
<p>Dire Tiger: CR 8, advanced to 20 via AC Table
<br />
Size: Large
<br />
AC: 32 (6 dex, +18 nat, -1 size)
<br />
HP: 176 (maxed out), HD:16d8
<br />
2 claws +30 (2d4+12 plus grab), bite +30 (2d6+12/19-20 plus grab)
<br />
Rake: (2 claws, +30, 2d4+12)
<br />
Stats:
<br />
STR: 33, DEX: 21, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
<br />
Saves: Fort: 22, Ref: 11, Will 10</p>Just one last excercise in being ridiculous with this.
Dire Tiger Fighter Pugilist via Leadership: CR 8
Levels: Fighter 12
Size: Large
AC: 17 (2 dex, +6 nat, -1 size)
HP: 171 (14d8+42+12d10) [average roll, max is: 274 hp]
BAB: 12/7/2
2 claws +36 (2d4+18 plus grab), bite +34 (2d6+18/19-20 plus grab)
Rake: (2 claws, +34, 2d4+16)
Stats:
STR: 30, DEX: 15, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
Saves: Fort: 20, Ref: 15, Will 9
Feats: Weapon Focus (+1 atk, Claw), Weapon Specialization (+2 dam, Claw),...Ed-Zero2013-01-25T19:37:25ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?AnimateDreamhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#352013-01-25T07:00:38Z2013-01-25T07:00:38Z<p>Two words:
<br />
Weapon Finesse</p>Two words:
Weapon FinesseAnimateDream2013-01-25T07:00:38ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Shar Tahlhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#342012-11-07T02:23:33Z2012-11-07T02:23:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ed-Zero wrote:</div><blockquote><p> To all the naysayers and dream slayers, let us then compare a level 8 Tiger AC to a Dire Tiger since the AC is "alreadly evolved".. I wasn't counting rake before so let's do that.</p>
<p>Dire Tiger: CR 8
<br />
Size: Large
<br />
AC: 17 (2 dex, +6 nat, -1 size)
<br />
HP: 105 (14d8+42) [average roll, max is: 154 hp]
<br />
2 claws +18 (2d4+8 plus grab), bite +18 (2d6+8/19-20 plus grab)
<br />
Rake: (2 claws, +18, 2d4+8)
<br />
Stats:
<br />
STR: 27, DEX: 15, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
<br />
Saves: Fort: 12, Ref: 11, Will 5</p>
<p>AC: Level 8
<br />
Size: Large
<br />
AC: 16 (10 base, 4 natural, 3 dex, -1 size)
<br />
HP: 88 (maxed out), HD:7d8
<br />
2 claws +5(BAB)+6(Str)=+11 (1d6+6 plus grab), Bite +5 (1d8+6 plus grab)
<br />
Rake: (2 claws, +11, 1d6+6)
<br />
Stats:
<br />
STR: 23, DEX: 17, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 16, CHA 10
<br />
Saves: Fort: 5, Ref: 5, Will 2</p>
<p></blockquote><p>Recalculating what you have done there...
<p>AC at level 8</p>
<p>Str:23 (13 Base)+(+8 level 7 boost)+(+2 from AC Table)
<br />
Dex:17 (17 base)+(-2 level 7 boost)+(+2 from AC Table)
<br />
Con:17 (13 base)+(+4 level 7 boost)
<br />
Int:3 (2 base)+(+1 from ability increase)
<br />
Wis:15
<br />
Cha:10</p>
<p>Nat Arm: +7 = (+1 base)+(+2 level 7 boost)+(+4 AC Table)
<br />
Feats: Armor Prof(Light), Armor Prof (Medium), Power Attack, Weapon Focus(Claw)
<br />
Equipment: Mithril Breastplate Barding (6 Armor, 4 max dex, -1 ACP)</p>
<p>HP: 77 (Max 7•{8+3 Con})
<br />
Saves: F=8 R=8 W=4
<br />
BAB: +5</p>
<p>Attacks: (-2 Att/+4 Dmg with Power Attack)
<br />
Claw: +12(+5 BAB + 7 Str + 1 focus - 1 size) Attack, 1d6+7
<br />
Bite: +11(+5 BAB + 7 Str - 1 size) Attack, 1d8+7
<br />
AC: 25 (10 + 6 Armor + 7 NA + 3 Dex - 1 Size)
<br />
Skill Ranks: 1 Linguistics, 6 distributed elsewhere</p>
<p>Now, comparing it to a totally different creature is not valid for argument purposes. You have admitted this, but still are comparing to a CR8 creature. Compare this to what the creature is, which is a lion/tiger. This is one bad-ass tiger. He-Man would be proud of old Cringer</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>Ed-Zero wrote:To all the naysayers and dream slayers, let us then compare a level 8 Tiger AC to a Dire Tiger since the AC is "alreadly evolved".. I wasn't counting rake before so let's do that.
Dire Tiger: CR 8
Size: Large
AC: 17 (2 dex, +6 nat, -1 size)
HP: 105 (14d8+42) [average roll, max is: 154 hp]
2 claws +18 (2d4+8 plus grab), bite +18 (2d6+8/19-20 plus grab)
Rake: (2 claws, +18, 2d4+8)
Stats:
STR: 27, DEX: 15, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
Saves: Fort: 12, Ref: 11, Will 5
AC:...Shar Tahl2012-11-07T02:23:33ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?DeusTerranhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#332012-11-07T01:50:45Z2012-11-07T01:50:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chuck Wright wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">DeusTerran wrote:</div><blockquote><p> As me and Lord Tsarkon pointed out, you can't compare an Animal Companion animal to it's encounter equal because unlike the one of the wild, the AC animal can have gear, buffs, modifications (magical tattoos on a rhino are HARD TO DO) and if you put their INT at 3+ their entire tactics can change.</p>
<p>Once you take into account all factors, a Druid AC needs a nerf </blockquote>A tribal human design for the tattoo, I assume? </blockquote><p>Actually scarrification swirls. Like the tattoos that the giants in Skyrim haveChuck Wright wrote:DeusTerran wrote:As me and Lord Tsarkon pointed out, you can't compare an Animal Companion animal to it's encounter equal because unlike the one of the wild, the AC animal can have gear, buffs, modifications (magical tattoos on a rhino are HARD TO DO) and if you put their INT at 3+ their entire tactics can change.
Once you take into account all factors, a Druid AC needs a nerf
A tribal human design for the tattoo, I assume? Actually scarrification swirls. Like the tattoos...DeusTerran2012-11-07T01:50:45ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Chuck Wright (Frog God Games)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#322012-11-06T22:31:51Z2012-11-06T22:31:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DeusTerran wrote:</div><blockquote><p> As me and Lord Tsarkon pointed out, you can't compare an Animal Companion animal to it's encounter equal because unlike the one of the wild, the AC animal can have gear, buffs, modifications (magical tattoos on a rhino are HARD TO DO) and if you put their INT at 3+ their entire tactics can change.</p>
<p>Once you take into account all factors, a Druid AC needs a nerf </blockquote><p>A tribal human design for the tattoo, I assume?DeusTerran wrote:As me and Lord Tsarkon pointed out, you can't compare an Animal Companion animal to it's encounter equal because unlike the one of the wild, the AC animal can have gear, buffs, modifications (magical tattoos on a rhino are HARD TO DO) and if you put their INT at 3+ their entire tactics can change.
Once you take into account all factors, a Druid AC needs a nerf
A tribal human design for the tattoo, I assume?Chuck Wright (Frog God Games)2012-11-06T22:31:51ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?DeusTerranhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#312012-11-06T21:09:39Z2012-11-06T21:09:39Z<p>As me and Lord Tsarkon pointed out, you can't compare an Animal Companion animal to it's encounter equal because unlike the one of the wild, the AC animal can have gear, buffs, modifications (magical tattoos on a rhino are HARD TO DO) and if you put their INT at 3+ their entire tactics can change.</p>
<p>Once you take into account all factors, a Druid AC needs a nerf</p>As me and Lord Tsarkon pointed out, you can't compare an Animal Companion animal to it's encounter equal because unlike the one of the wild, the AC animal can have gear, buffs, modifications (magical tattoos on a rhino are HARD TO DO) and if you put their INT at 3+ their entire tactics can change.
Once you take into account all factors, a Druid AC needs a nerfDeusTerran2012-11-06T21:09:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Wrathhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#302012-11-06T04:07:34Z2012-11-06T04:07:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">johnlocke90 wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
This isn't how the CR system works. A CR 8 encounter isn't roughly equal to the strength of the party(otherwise we would expect some people to die every equal leveled encounter). A single level 8 NPC would be considered a CR 8 encounter. It would probably be a 50 percent increase in the strength of a druid. </blockquote><p>Yeah, I realised that once I read my post again. Dodgy maths and all. Effectively you get 4 encounters of CR per day, which should use up 1/4 of parties resources. So in effect a CR equivalent creature is basically 1/4 of an adventuring party or there abouts.
<p>Again I know that's not how the maths works exactly, but for comparison purposes it works.</p>
<p>As to the OP, I understand they're not equivalent in power to the wild caught animal of the same name, but as we said, balance and all that. I guess you could relate it to the AC not going through the natural selective process of the wilds and therefore not necessarily being the biggest and baddest of its kind. It may be healithier in terms of grooming and feeding, but it hasn't had to fight every day of its life just to live, and therefore doesn't quite match up to its wilder relatives in terms of sheer survival instinct and brutality.</p>
<p>Of course, that's just one story method of explaining a mechanical disparity, but it works for me. I'll accept stories if similar ilk if it satisfies game balance issues.</p>
<p>Cheers</p>johnlocke90 wrote:This isn't how the CR system works. A CR 8 encounter isn't roughly equal to the strength of the party(otherwise we would expect some people to die every equal leveled encounter). A single level 8 NPC would be considered a CR 8 encounter. It would probably be a 50 percent increase in the strength of a druid.
Yeah, I realised that once I read my post again. Dodgy maths and all. Effectively you get 4 encounters of CR per day, which should use up 1/4 of parties resources. So in...Wrath2012-11-06T04:07:34ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Lord Tsarkonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#292012-11-06T04:04:49Z2012-11-06T04:04:49Z<p>You Can't just straight up compare Stats.. Although one Stat comes to mind you can compare and thats intelligence.. most animals have 1 or 2... </p>
<p>In our Kingmaker campaign last year I played a Level 5 Gnome Druid with a LARGE APE Companion and gave a +1 to INtelligence (Giving the APe a 3 Intelligence meant it can understand spoken language and communicate back via sign language)...</p>
<p>I used linguistics to train the Ape in Sign Language... (just like in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla)" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">REAL LIFE</a>)</p>
<p>3 Intelligence means no Tricks or handle animal checks(no need... animal Companion understands your speech).</p>
<p>Our Party needed a Tank so I gave the APe some Leather Armor (Dm said no to Mythral Armor lol), Combat Reflexes, and the Ape had a 20 something Strength. I would just sit on the shoulders (as a Gnome) and turn into an Eagle while the Ape would do his thing (Combat Reflexes + Reach = Lots of Attacks of Opportunities). I would blast with spells from above.</p>
<p>After 1 Game session the DM had to force me to change Characters... Even at Level 5 the Ape Animal Companion was too powerful (Party still needed a Tank so I played a Paladin next session).</p>
<p>Reason the Animal Companions seemed Nerfed at low Levels is because they are so powerful.</p>
<p>Animal Companion will always be more powerful than a regular animal in my opinion.</p>You Can't just straight up compare Stats.. Although one Stat comes to mind you can compare and thats intelligence.. most animals have 1 or 2...
In our Kingmaker campaign last year I played a Level 5 Gnome Druid with a LARGE APE Companion and gave a +1 to INtelligence (Giving the APe a 3 Intelligence meant it can understand spoken language and communicate back via sign language)...
I used linguistics to train the Ape in Sign Language... (just like in REAL LIFE)
3 Intelligence means no...Lord Tsarkon2012-11-06T04:04:49ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?DeusTerranhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#282012-11-06T03:41:57Z2012-11-06T03:41:57Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chuck Wright wrote:</div><blockquote> That's just wrong, DeusTerran. </blockquote><p>It's oh so wrong, but when the rhino charges it's oh SO RIGHTChuck Wright wrote:That's just wrong, DeusTerran.
It's oh so wrong, but when the rhino charges it's oh SO RIGHTDeusTerran2012-11-06T03:41:57ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Chuck Wright (Frog God Games)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#272012-11-06T03:38:22Z2012-11-06T03:38:22Z<p>That's just wrong, DeusTerran.</p>That's just wrong, DeusTerran.Chuck Wright (Frog God Games)2012-11-06T03:38:22ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?DeusTerranhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#262012-11-06T03:09:31Z2012-11-06T03:09:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Charlie Bell wrote:</div><blockquote> The one that blows me away is that the bear AC is Small, and the wolf is Medium. Since when are bears smaller than wolves? </blockquote><p>Totally agree here.
<p>Although the last druid I played had one VERY confused animal companion.</p>
<p>Level 7 Large Rhino AC, wearing Propperly made for it Rhino Hide Armor (the armor that gives extra damage on a charge)</p>Charlie Bell wrote:The one that blows me away is that the bear AC is Small, and the wolf is Medium. Since when are bears smaller than wolves?
Totally agree here. Although the last druid I played had one VERY confused animal companion.
Level 7 Large Rhino AC, wearing Propperly made for it Rhino Hide Armor (the armor that gives extra damage on a charge)DeusTerran2012-11-06T03:09:31ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Cheapyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#252013-01-25T15:20:02Z2012-11-06T02:25:41Z<p>One system allows you to have a T-Rex at first level.</p>
<p>The other does not. That's good enough an answer for me!</p>One system allows you to have a T-Rex at first level.
The other does not. That's good enough an answer for me!Cheapy2012-11-06T02:25:41ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Charlie Bell (RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#242012-11-06T02:21:05Z2012-11-06T02:21:05Z<p>The one that blows me away is that the bear AC is Small, and the wolf is Medium. Since when are bears smaller than wolves?</p>The one that blows me away is that the bear AC is Small, and the wolf is Medium. Since when are bears smaller than wolves?Charlie Bell (RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16)2012-11-06T02:21:05ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Shuriken Nekogami (alias of Luminiere Solas)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#232012-11-06T00:26:32Z2012-11-06T00:26:32Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Yosarian wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">cartmanbeck wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
You can absolutely "adopt" a real tiger as your companion, using the Leadership feat. </blockquote><p>:blinks:
<p>Leadership? Really? For a tiger?</p>
<p>Why not with the Handle Animal skill? That actually has rules for rearing a wild animal yourself and then training it for combat, and it makes a lot more sense for a druid. </blockquote><p>leadership can get you an advanced unique heroic dire tiger with 12 fighter levels, 18th level NPC gear, human intelligence, and a boatload of HP by level 20. or just an advanced dire tiger at level 11. i am talking about freaking battle cat from eternia over here. who wouldn't want this epic armored feline warrior?Yosarian wrote:cartmanbeck wrote:
You can absolutely "adopt" a real tiger as your companion, using the Leadership feat.
:blinks: Leadership? Really? For a tiger?
Why not with the Handle Animal skill? That actually has rules for rearing a wild animal yourself and then training it for combat, and it makes a lot more sense for a druid. leadership can get you an advanced unique heroic dire tiger with 12 fighter levels, 18th level NPC gear, human intelligence, and a boatload of HP by level 20....Shuriken Nekogami (alias of Luminiere Solas)2012-11-06T00:26:32ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Ed-Zerohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#222012-11-06T00:25:17Z2012-11-06T00:25:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shuriken Nekogami wrote:</div><blockquote><p>If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.</p>
<p>Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.</blockquote><p>Wow, I've never seen those rules before. That is pretty interesting. It does make sense for the class to best fit a animal would be the fighter. Thank you for showing me this, I appreciate it :) (Doubt I'll ever get to use it, but it's still interesting)Shuriken Nekogami wrote:If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character...Ed-Zero2012-11-06T00:25:17ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Yosarianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#212013-01-28T00:53:25Z2012-11-05T23:54:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">cartmanbeck wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
You can absolutely "adopt" a real tiger as your companion, using the Leadership feat. </blockquote><p>:blinks:
<p>Leadership? Really? For a tiger?</p>
<p>Why not with the Handle Animal skill? That actually has rules for rearing a wild animal yourself and then training it for combat, and it makes a lot more sense for a druid.</p>cartmanbeck wrote:You can absolutely "adopt" a real tiger as your companion, using the Leadership feat.
:blinks: Leadership? Really? For a tiger?
Why not with the Handle Animal skill? That actually has rules for rearing a wild animal yourself and then training it for combat, and it makes a lot more sense for a druid.Yosarian2012-11-05T23:54:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?cartmanbeck (RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#202012-11-05T23:53:25Z2012-11-05T23:53:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">johnlocke90 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Wrath wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Ed, it's not a generous GM who'll allow this, it's a short sighted one.</p>
<p>The animal companions are well balanced as a class feature. They are meant to provide support combat options as another melee frontliner of sorts. </p>
<p>If you're playing a druid who runs a tiger animal companion then you're obviously planning on using it in combat. Most likely this means that you've cast buff spells on the thing for just such purposes (magic fang, barkskin etc) So when you run your comparison, you should give the AC those buffs. That's a legal AC build vs a Legal creature at level 8.</p>
<p>Also, you've failed to grasp that the dire tiger is only available to a druid at level 11 if he/she can manage to get one as a cub and train. Once again, you need to compare the two animals at the time the druid can legally obtain the dire tiger (so CR8 for teh dire tiger vs level 11 Animal companion.) This time build the companion with the feats it's entitled to (such as the healing one available to animals - ungodded healing or something like that). </p>
<p>The Dire tiger is a combatant against 4 players of level 8.</p>
<p>If you're DM allows a druid to take it as an animal companion at level 8, he is effectively giving the druid 4 times more power than the other players.</p>
<p>Balance is very important, and whishsing to uber your character needs to be weighed agains that.</p>
<p>cheers </blockquote>This isn't how the CR system works. A CR 8 encounter isn't roughly equal to the strength of the party(otherwise we would expect some people to die every equal leveled encounter). A single level 8 NPC would be considered a CR 8 encounter. It would probably be a 50 percent increase in the strength of a druid. </blockquote><p>Actually a single level 8 NPC is considered a CR7 encounter in Pathfinder.johnlocke90 wrote:Wrath wrote:Ed, it's not a generous GM who'll allow this, it's a short sighted one.
The animal companions are well balanced as a class feature. They are meant to provide support combat options as another melee frontliner of sorts.
If you're playing a druid who runs a tiger animal companion then you're obviously planning on using it in combat. Most likely this means that you've cast buff spells on the thing for just such purposes (magic fang, barkskin etc) So when you run...cartmanbeck (RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16)2012-11-05T23:53:25ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Shuriken Nekogami (alias of Luminiere Solas)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#192012-11-05T23:48:40Z2012-11-05T23:48:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ed-Zero wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">cartmanbeck wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Theoretically? Yes, that would be pretty close to equal to a CR 4 or "4.5" creature, so yes. However, an animal companion is pretty much always going to backed up by a full spellcaster, so putting the poor tiger all by himself against a "CR-appropriate" group wouldn't really be fair to the tiger either. </p>
<p>I'm sorry I sounded harsh before, but it's really annoying when someone seemingly completely ignores what you post when you're trying very hard to answer their question. It's like when someone asks you to edit their paper, you spend several hours with the red pen fixing errors, then a week later they ask you to edit their final revision and you realize that they NEVER LOOKED AT YOUR OLD EDITS. Drives me bonkers.</p>
<p>Again, I apologize for sounding mean.</blockquote><p>Yeah, get what you're saying. Just thought it'd be fun to analyze the differences between the companion and actual animal.
<p>I'm fairly sure there aren't a great many people that like being ignored hehe. No worries :)</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shuriken Nekogami wrote:</div><blockquote><p> you can have a dire tiger cohort via the leadership feat. it counts as a level 8 cohort on it's own, and you can give it class levels to make it tougher, bump it's int to 3 so it can understand you, and every 3 class levels gives it an additional class level, up until the 4th additional level.</p>
<p>essentially, the ECL 18 dire tiger cohort to a 20th level character would have 13 class levels for a total of 29 hit die. which could be spent on fighter levels to improve it's natural weapons. and give it a bab of +25. it also has the gear of an 18th level NPC. it could sacrifice a level for +4 to all stats and +2 natural armor. a decent tradeoff for this beast. </blockquote>This is interesting, can you link the section of rules that allow you to give an animal class levels or are you going off of the fact that if it gains a level then it's able to acquire a class if it qualifies (which it would or should for fighter) or am I missing something and it has to do with some interaction between the... </blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">PRD wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>Monsters as PCs
<br />
Using one of the monsters presented in this book as a character can be very rewarding, but weighing such a character against others is challenging. Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully.</p>
<p>There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.</p>
<p>For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.</p>
<p>If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.</p>
<p>Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.</p>
<p>GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>note it says nothing about animals or elementals being unable to gain levels in PC classes. it's just that some would be rather silly. but a war trained tiger (hence the fighter levels) who fights with augmented natural weapons actually makes sense.
<p>CR8+10 levels =ECL18, every 3 class levels gives you and additional free class level, up to a maximum of half your CR (Rounded down). 10/3 =3 and 8/2=4. so you would have 3 extra levels. you would be entitled to 1 more in 2 levels. for a total of 16CL at ECL 20.</p>
<p>it is an interaction between the leadership feat and the monsters as PCs rules in the back of the bestiary. the reason for the 4/3 class level progression (up to 1/2 Cr in free class levels before going 1=1 each level after) is because racial abilities are eventually eclipsed by class features. the tiger would also get stats as a heroic monster of it's CR.</p>Ed-Zero wrote:cartmanbeck wrote:Theoretically? Yes, that would be pretty close to equal to a CR 4 or "4.5" creature, so yes. However, an animal companion is pretty much always going to backed up by a full spellcaster, so putting the poor tiger all by himself against a "CR-appropriate" group wouldn't really be fair to the tiger either.
I'm sorry I sounded harsh before, but it's really annoying when someone seemingly completely ignores what you post when you're trying very hard to answer their...Shuriken Nekogami (alias of Luminiere Solas)2012-11-05T23:48:40ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Ed-Zerohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#182012-11-05T23:33:48Z2012-11-05T23:33:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">cartmanbeck wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Theoretically? Yes, that would be pretty close to equal to a CR 4 or "4.5" creature, so yes. However, an animal companion is pretty much always going to backed up by a full spellcaster, so putting the poor tiger all by himself against a "CR-appropriate" group wouldn't really be fair to the tiger either. </p>
<p>I'm sorry I sounded harsh before, but it's really annoying when someone seemingly completely ignores what you post when you're trying very hard to answer their question. It's like when someone asks you to edit their paper, you spend several hours with the red pen fixing errors, then a week later they ask you to edit their final revision and you realize that they NEVER LOOKED AT YOUR OLD EDITS. Drives me bonkers.</p>
<p>Again, I apologize for sounding mean.</blockquote><p>Yeah, get what you're saying. Just thought it'd be fun to analyze the differences between the companion and actual animal.
<p>I'm fairly sure there aren't a great many people that like being ignored hehe. No worries :)</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shuriken Nekogami wrote:</div><blockquote><p> you can have a dire tiger cohort via the leadership feat. it counts as a level 8 cohort on it's own, and you can give it class levels to make it tougher, bump it's int to 3 so it can understand you, and every 3 class levels gives it an additional class level, up until the 4th additional level.</p>
<p>essentially, the ECL 18 dire tiger cohort to a 20th level character would have 13 class levels for a total of 29 hit die. which could be spent on fighter levels to improve it's natural weapons. and give it a bab of +25. it also has the gear of an 18th level NPC. it could sacrifice a level for +4 to all stats and +2 natural armor. a decent tradeoff for this beast. </blockquote><p>This is interesting, can you link the section of rules that allow you to give an animal class levels or are you going off of the fact that if it gains a level then it's able to acquire a class if it qualifies (which it would or should for fighter) or am I missing something and it has to do with some interaction between the cohort feat and some rules about leveling? Either way, I am interested in this as I think the levels of the animal would progress like it would for a character, every level = 1 level instead of every 3 levels = 1 level.cartmanbeck wrote:Theoretically? Yes, that would be pretty close to equal to a CR 4 or "4.5" creature, so yes. However, an animal companion is pretty much always going to backed up by a full spellcaster, so putting the poor tiger all by himself against a "CR-appropriate" group wouldn't really be fair to the tiger either.
I'm sorry I sounded harsh before, but it's really annoying when someone seemingly completely ignores what you post when you're trying very hard to answer their question....Ed-Zero2012-11-05T23:33:48ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?johnlocke90https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#172012-11-05T23:07:54Z2012-11-05T23:07:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Wrath wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Ed, it's not a generous GM who'll allow this, it's a short sighted one.</p>
<p>The animal companions are well balanced as a class feature. They are meant to provide support combat options as another melee frontliner of sorts. </p>
<p>If you're playing a druid who runs a tiger animal companion then you're obviously planning on using it in combat. Most likely this means that you've cast buff spells on the thing for just such purposes (magic fang, barkskin etc) So when you run your comparison, you should give the AC those buffs. That's a legal AC build vs a Legal creature at level 8.</p>
<p>Also, you've failed to grasp that the dire tiger is only available to a druid at level 11 if he/she can manage to get one as a cub and train. Once again, you need to compare the two animals at the time the druid can legally obtain the dire tiger (so CR8 for teh dire tiger vs level 11 Animal companion.) This time build the companion with the feats it's entitled to (such as the healing one available to animals - ungodded healing or something like that). </p>
<p>The Dire tiger is a combatant against 4 players of level 8.</p>
<p>If you're DM allows a druid to take it as an animal companion at level 8, he is effectively giving the druid 4 times more power than the other players.</p>
<p>Balance is very important, and whishsing to uber your character needs to be weighed agains that.</p>
<p>cheers </blockquote><p>This isn't how the CR system works. A CR 8 encounter isn't roughly equal to the strength of the party(otherwise we would expect some people to die every equal leveled encounter). A single level 8 NPC would be considered a CR 8 encounter. It would probably be a 50 percent increase in the strength of a druid.Wrath wrote:Ed, it's not a generous GM who'll allow this, it's a short sighted one.
The animal companions are well balanced as a class feature. They are meant to provide support combat options as another melee frontliner of sorts.
If you're playing a druid who runs a tiger animal companion then you're obviously planning on using it in combat. Most likely this means that you've cast buff spells on the thing for just such purposes (magic fang, barkskin etc) So when you run your comparison,...johnlocke902012-11-05T23:07:54ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?Shuriken Nekogami (alias of Luminiere Solas)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#162012-11-05T22:48:40Z2012-11-05T22:48:40Z<p>you can have a dire tiger cohort via the leadership feat. it counts as a level 8 cohort on it's own, and you can give it class levels to make it tougher, bump it's int to 3 so it can understand you, and every 3 class levels gives it an additional class level, up until the 4th additional level.</p>
<p>essentially, the ECL 18 dire tiger cohort to a 20th level character would have 13 class levels for a total of 29 hit die. which could be spent on fighter levels to improve it's natural weapons. and give it a bab of +25. it also has the gear of an 18th level NPC. it could sacrifice a level for +4 to all stats and +2 natural armor. a decent tradeoff for this beast.</p>you can have a dire tiger cohort via the leadership feat. it counts as a level 8 cohort on it's own, and you can give it class levels to make it tougher, bump it's int to 3 so it can understand you, and every 3 class levels gives it an additional class level, up until the 4th additional level.
essentially, the ECL 18 dire tiger cohort to a 20th level character would have 13 class levels for a total of 29 hit die. which could be spent on fighter levels to improve it's natural weapons. and...Shuriken Nekogami (alias of Luminiere Solas)2012-11-05T22:48:40ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?oneplus999https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#152012-11-05T22:44:59Z2012-11-05T22:44:59Z<p>That said, the thread title is "why is AC so much weaker", to which the answer is a resounding "because otherwise it wouldn't be balanced". A CR3 creature, such as a level 4 druid, cannot include a CR4 creature.</p>That said, the thread title is "why is AC so much weaker", to which the answer is a resounding "because otherwise it wouldn't be balanced". A CR3 creature, such as a level 4 druid, cannot include a CR4 creature.oneplus9992012-11-05T22:44:59ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Animal Companion vs. same animal, why is Animal companion so much weaker?oneplus999https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4kl?Animal-Companion-vs-same-animal-why-is-Animal#142012-11-05T22:37:12Z2012-11-05T22:37:12Z<p>So the message from this thread is coming off as "wouldn't it be nice if this class was overpowered"... which I don't see the point of. </p>
<p>The simplest way to think about why this would be bad is to remember that enemies can be built by the same rules, so when you are level 5-6 your GM could "fairly" put you up against a level 8 druid with a fully buffed/equipped dire tiger AC. Then think about how "fun" that would be :)</p>So the message from this thread is coming off as "wouldn't it be nice if this class was overpowered"... which I don't see the point of.
The simplest way to think about why this would be bad is to remember that enemies can be built by the same rules, so when you are level 5-6 your GM could "fairly" put you up against a level 8 druid with a fully buffed/equipped dire tiger AC. Then think about how "fun" that would be :)oneplus9992012-11-05T22:37:12Z