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Do I need to buy Masterwork TWICE on a shield I want to bash with?


Advice

Grand Lodge

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Do I need to pay the armour cost and the weapon cost both? 450gp?

That said, I only need to add in the special materials value once? Or is it twice? Living steal for instance... would it be just the single purchase?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Star Voter 2014

Helaman wrote:

Do I need to pay the armour cost and the weapon cost both? 450gp?

That said, I only need to add in the special materials value once? Or is it twice? Living steal for instance... would it be just the single purchase?

No, you should not have to pay for masterwork twice. You can make a masterwork shield (paying 150gp) and it will be treated as both a masterwork shield and a masterwork weapon for shield bashing. You also shouldn't have to double-pay on special materials, since the materials are based on the weight (or volume, if you want to think of it that way) of material used to create the shield.

Magic enhancement bonuses are a different breed, since theoretically the magic "knows" whether it's supposed to give a bonus to AC or to attacking, which is why the shield has to be enchanted separately for attacking.

This brings up an interesting point though... do you have to pay the masterwork cost for armor spikes, since they're technically listed as a separate item from your armor? I would guess yes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think you pay both as they are different things. 150 for reduction in -1 ACP and 300 for +1 damage. You could choose just do one. Say 150 for the -1 ACP but then you can only enchant the thing defensively. Basically it was never made to be weapon and can't be enchanted.

Grand Lodge

voska66 wrote:
I think you pay both as they are different things. 150 for reduction in -1 ACP and 300 for +1 damage. You could choose just do one. Say 150 for the -1 ACP but then you can only enchant the thing defensively. Basically it was never made to be weapon and can't be enchanted.

I think you may be right on that. Question is do I pay once for shield cost of special materials AND again the weapon cost of the special materials?

If thats the case, its gonna get HIDEOUSLY expensive for say a shield of living steel to both bash and defend with... do I even have the option of not buying the weapon upgrade for the materials but still buying the MW weapon bonus for the same?

Its becoming a wee bit complicated


FAQing this, but...

I'm in agreement that you SHOULDN'T have to pay twice to have a shield be masterwork for the purposes of bashing with it and defending with it.

You don't have to make a shield twice to use it for both defense and offense. Masterworking is typically done at the time of creating the item, and once an item it masterwork, you can't go back and REALLY masterwork it with the spell. And then you have special materials, especially those that are always masterwork to begin with. Would I have to pay for a mithral shield twice?

Let's get really stupid and say that you DO have to pay for it separately. If I have to pay for it to be a weapon and a shield separately, could I then make the argument that I'm making it Mithral for the purposes of defending, but adamantine for the purposes of attacking? I have to pay for the two separately, so why can't I pay for different material costs?

Shadow Lodge

I'm in the camp of a masterwork shield costs 150gp for all functions.


Masterwork shields cost 150g above the normal price to be made masterwork. You do not pay to make them masterwork as both a weapon and as armor.

It is important to note, however, that masterwork shields do not grant a bonus to hit for being masterwork. You must enchant them to get any bonuses on your attacks.

As for special materials, I would say you probably price it as armor if you can and do not add the weapon pricing. I will look to see if I can find anything to confirm this later when I get the chance.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Helaman wrote:
voska66 wrote:
I think you pay both as they are different things. 150 for reduction in -1 ACP and 300 for +1 damage. You could choose just do one. Say 150 for the -1 ACP but then you can only enchant the thing defensively. Basically it was never made to be weapon and can't be enchanted.

I think you may be right on that. Question is do I pay once for shield cost of special materials AND again the weapon cost of the special materials?

If thats the case, its gonna get HIDEOUSLY expensive for say a shield of living steel to both bash and defend with... do I even have the option of not buying the weapon upgrade for the materials but still buying the MW weapon bonus for the same?

Its becoming a wee bit complicated

I think by RAW you have to pay it twice. Personally I'd rule you just pay the higher of the two prices. Like an Admantine Heavy Shield, it's 10,000 as armor and 3000 as a weapon. RAW you'd pay +13,000 gp for me I think 10,000 gp makes more sense as it is more material the weapon uses.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter 2014

I'd say pay twice. You're trying to get something that's crafted to be the perfect offense AND defense at the same time.

In all likelyhood, unless you're Pallybash, skeleton hunter, you're slapping a shield spike on the shield anyway, which definitely takes the extra cash and special material, making this a moot point.

Shadow Lodge

voska66 wrote:
I think by RAW you have to pay it twice. Personally I'd rule you just pay the higher of the two prices. Like an Admantine Heavy Shield, it's 10,000 as armor and 3000 as a weapon. RAW you'd pay +13,000 gp for me I think 10,000 gp makes more sense as it is more material the weapon uses.

Making a shield out of adamantine has zero benefit except as a weapon (shields aren't armor).


If you are looking to do specifically Living Steel, you would just use the "Shield" pricing of the item which, if the SRD is correct, is +100g. It also doesn't say that it's always masterwork, so a masterwork living steel shield would cost +250g over the normal cost. It would have its ACP reduced by 1, having the special ability of living steel, and would be ripe for enchanting.


Dominigo wrote:

Masterwork shields cost 150g above the normal price to be made masterwork. You do not pay to make them masterwork as both a weapon and as armor.

It is important to note, however, that masterwork shields do not grant a bonus to hit for being masterwork. You must enchant them to get any bonuses on your attacks.

As for special materials, I would say you probably price it as armor if you can and do not add the weapon pricing. I will look to see if I can find anything to confirm this later when I get the chance.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor#TOC-Masterwork-Armor

"The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon."

Dominigo has it right. You only have to pay once.

So even if you somehow could make the case you could masterwork it as a weapon, you don't gain the benefit of a masterwork weapon with a shield anyway.


Helaman wrote:

Do I need to pay the armour cost and the weapon cost both? 450gp?

That said, I only need to add in the special materials value once? Or is it twice? Living steal for instance... would it be just the single purchase?

You pay for the materials once (it is a finite volume of material your using and your buying one shield not two) but must pay for the masterwork for each type of masterwork you want on the shield (defensive and offensive) just like enchanting the shield has seperate costs.

Balancing the + to hit and still keeping the reduction to armor penalty is represented by the two seperate masterwork costs and effects.

Note that any shield can bash, it does NOT have to be masterwork for that. If you want the +1 to hit and want to enchant it as a weapon I beleive you need to spend the extra gold on the weapon Masterwork cost.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Star Voter 2014

Harrison wrote:
Dominigo wrote:

Masterwork shields cost 150g above the normal price to be made masterwork. You do not pay to make them masterwork as both a weapon and as armor.

It is important to note, however, that masterwork shields do not grant a bonus to hit for being masterwork. You must enchant them to get any bonuses on your attacks.

As for special materials, I would say you probably price it as armor if you can and do not add the weapon pricing. I will look to see if I can find anything to confirm this later when I get the chance.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor#TOC-Masterwork-Armor

"The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon."

Dominigo has it right. You only have to pay once.

So even if you somehow could make the case you could masterwork it as a weapon, you don't gain the benefit of a masterwork weapon with a shield anyway.

This is pretty concrete, right here. You can make a masterwork shield for 150gp + shield cost, but it never gives you a bonus to attack as if it were a masterwork weapon. You have to enchant it as a weapon to get that +1 to attack (and damage).

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