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Qinggong Monk and Zen Archer Monk


Rules Questions

Andoran

7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.

On another site, a guy ha posted a guide for Zen Archer that basically states that all monks are Qinggong monks now and that a monk can be built using both archetypes. When I asked if that was legal under the rules, I was rebuffed by several people stating that since all of the abilitie4s of the Qinggong Monk were optional, that they did not fall under the rule prohibiting two archetypes if both of them targeted the same ability.

I originally was willing to accept this as correct, but the more I think about it I am thinking that it is not the case. Regardless of whether the ability is swapped out or not, is the ability still not targeted? If the answer to that is yes, then I do not see how both of those archetypes could ever possibly be taken together, as there are several levels where both archetypes target the same ability.

Opinions?


Unlike a typical archetype, the Qinggong archetype is customizable--you only alter the features you trade. This means that yes, all monks can be Qinggong Monks.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
mplindustries wrote:
Unlike a typical archetype, the Qinggong archetype is customizable--you only alter the features you trade. This means that yes, all monks can be Qinggong Monks.

See, I completely disagree with this assessment. The specific wording of the Qinggong Monk says:

"A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power."

Nowhere in there does it say that it is customizable, only that it replaces a monk ability at 4th, 5th, 7th, 11th, 12, 13th, 15th, 17th, 17th, 19th, and 20th level. By targeting an ability at each of those levels, it would seem to make sense to me that under the rules for multiple archetypes no other archetype could be chosen that also targets abilities at those levels. The specific rule for this is on page 72 of the Advanced Players Guide:

"A character can take more than one archetype and
garner additional alternate class features, but none of
the alternate class features can replace or alter the same
class feature from the core class as another alternate
class feature."

Those two quoted sections seem to directly oppose one another........


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I know of no official developer clarification.

My personal view is that since quinggong is quite specifically presented as an archetype, not merely a list about generally substitutable monk abilities, it should be construed as an archetype that modifies all of slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th) by making them swappable, and thus is incompatible with any monk archetype that touches any of those features.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

The last sentence of that first quoted paragraph gives you the official answer:

"This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power."

Nothing is replaced or altered until and unless you give up a feature. It specifically only replaces the abilities you choose. It can combine with any archetype because you can just choose not to give up the abilities that are changed.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:

The last sentence of that first quoted paragraph gives you the official answer:

"This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power."

Nothing is replaced or altered until and unless you give up a feature. It specifically only replaces the abilities you choose. It can combine with any archetype because you can just choose not to give up the abilities that are changed.

But aren't the abilities altered by the fact that they're now a list of options instead of a hard ability?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ssalarn wrote:
But aren't the abilities altered by the fact that they're now a list of options instead of a hard ability?

No, the abilities are not altered unless you choose to alter them.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Definitely not altered until you alter them

Sczarni

The only archetypes it wouldn't stack with would be those that give up Ki Pool, such as the Martial Artist.

At least, that's how I read it.


I'm with MPL on this one. It makes for some really broken combos, but nothing illegal. Though I don't know how long it will stand in PFS, since they are quicker to restrict options (holy gun).


Dawsjax wrote:
I'm with MPL on this one. It makes for some really broken combos, but nothing illegal. Though I don't know how long it will stand in PFS, since they are quicker to restrict options (holy gun).

I disagree that it allows for broken combos considering that a RAW monk is probably the weakest class in the game.


Qingong Monk shouldn't so much be an archetype as Monk errata. Maybe for 2nd Ed.


Dawsjax wrote:
I'm with MPL on this one. It makes for some really broken combos, but nothing illegal. Though I don't know how long it will stand in PFS, since they are quicker to restrict options (holy gun).

Broken combos? Such as?


Viktyr Gehrig wrote:
Qingong Monk shouldn't so much be an archetype as Monk errata. Maybe for 2nd Ed.

This.


Perhaps combos is the wrong word. I was typing just before I went to sleep, my apologies. The qinggong monk becomes capable (with the correct build) of incredible bursts of power and methods to escape many predicaments a base monk could not. The player in our game uses Zen Archer and Qinggong, I'm fact I think I mentioned him before which may have sparked this discussion. Thanks to feat selection, he has an attack bonus and AC higher than the fighter, can fire his bow without provoking AoOs, holds onto the option of Scorching Ray, and can take gaseous form when bad things happen, such as an expert grappler enemy trying to hold him down. So, sorry, Finnish was the wrong word, but I disagree with the statement if monks being the weakest class. If built properly, they are beasts.


Dawsjax wrote:
Perhaps combos is the wrong word. I was typing just before I went to sleep, my apologies. The qinggong monk becomes capable (with the correct build) of incredible bursts of power and methods to escape many predicaments a base monk could not. The player in our game uses Zen Archer and Qinggong, I'm fact I think I mentioned him before which may have sparked this discussion. Thanks to feat selection, he has an attack bonus and AC higher than the fighter, can fire his bow without provoking AoOs, holds onto the option of Scorching Ray, and can take gaseous form when bad things happen, such as an expert grappler enemy trying to hold him down. So, sorry, Finnish was the wrong word, but I disagree with the statement if monks being the weakest class. If built properly, they are beasts.

Well some of this is you misunderstanding the rules in his benefit.

For instance, spell like abilities still require a concentration check to make while grappled and still provoke an attack of opportunity.

So in order for him to gaseous form out of a grapple he has to make two concentration checks, one for being grappled(10+CMD of grappler+spell level) and a second based on damage taken.

Spell casting in melee has a similar requirement.

Second, it sounds like he has a much higher level of system mastery than the other players. He shouldn't have an attack bonus and AC higher than a fighter.


Because of his large ki pool due to vows, he saves his hero points for cases like grappling. He has a high Wis (as a monk should) than the fighter has Str and gets to it to his attack bonus with the bow. His AC is higher because of this as well. Although the fighter uses heavy armor with a low dex, so it is not uncommon to get a better AC than him. The fighter still does much more damage, but it is not unheard of for a monk to pass the attack bonus. Monk level 12: bab +9 Wis mod +7, weapon focus +1, intuitive shot +3 and a +3 bow for +23. Fighter level 12: bab +12, Str mod +6, weapon focus +2, weapon training +2 and a +1 sword for +23, but the fighter usually power attacks, leaving him at +20


Dawsjax wrote:
Because of his large ki pool due to vows, he saves his hero points for cases like grappling. He has a high Wis (as a monk should) than the fighter has Str and gets to it to his attack bonus with the bow. His AC is higher because of this as well. Although the fighter uses heavy armor with a low dex, so it is not uncommon to get a better AC than him. The fighter still does much more damage, but it is not unheard of for a monk to pass the attack bonus. Monk level 12: bab +9 Wis mod +7, weapon focus +1, intuitive shot +3 and a +3 bow for +23. Fighter level 12: bab +12, Str mod +6, weapon focus +2, weapon training +2 and a +1 sword for +23, but the fighter usually power attacks, leaving him at +20

It sounds like your monk is just very min/maxed. An archer fighter would have all of that plus weapon training. You may have to talk to your monk about toning down his character to match his allies.

Second, I don't think hero points would save him. He would have to blow two to cast a spell while casting and even then his concentration checks are only +26. A grapple focused enemy will have a CMD of at least 30, which would put the check at 43.


Wait, a Monk being useful?

Don't get hit by a nerf bat!!


I'm not the GM in this one, so it's really not my call. As min/maxed as the monk is, the player is an active role player and uses his vows to create a rather hilarious persona. Our GM plays hero points a little different though, so the few times the ol monk got in a jam, he's been able to get out of it. The game the monk really hated though, was against the wizard who kept casting Wall of Wind, and the ghost. Fighter has a +1 corrosive, ghost touch weapon, so he shined in that battle.

Sczarni

Anyone who doubts the power of a Qinggong Zen Archer really has no idea what they are capable of. Soloing a creature with a CR = APL +3 in a round or two without sustaining any damage is pretty easy to do.

The biggest challenge the QZAM will face after about level 3 is letting the Fighter feel like he still contributes in combat (because even the Fighter is smart enough to know he doesn't contribute much out of combat). Poor Fighter. Maybe they'll double his skill points and Weapon Training boni in PF 2.0 so he can carry the Monks lunch.


How right you are Krodjin. With the QZAM getting 7 attack per round at 11th level and throwing perfect strike and all the other bonus feats monks get, they are formidable indeed. Fighters still get the advantage if the player is very wise with feat selection, nut if the two classes went two to two, my money is on the monk.


Stats or it didn't happen. At what level is this? I have a hard time seeing a level 1 monk soloing a sea hag or forest drake in a round or two. Or a level 5 monk soloing a Marai or two-headed troll.

Hit and runs might work but hardly in a round or two and hardly without the monster going "well okay, I'll go home and eat some villagers instead of caring about this annoying wasp".

I think qui-gon archers are useful and a balanced class, but I can't see them pulling those stunts.


I listed basic stats above Ilja.


no, you posted attack bonus calculations. proper build would be required or it's a bad case of Shroedinger Character.


Gotcha. Sorry to disappoint, but I don't have their full builds on hand.


What is that intuitive shot I cant seem to find it in the SRD or any of the books I have? I am playing and Oread qzam in our Carrion Crown Ap and I just got to level 4 and other then blowing through arrows it has been a pretty good build.


It's a 3rd party feat, I don't recall the company off hand. Yeah, the monk does cycle through ammo. We're in a dungeon crawl now, and he's already used about half his supply and is hoping some show up soon in treasure piles.


Wait what you're saying monks are powerful if you use 3pp feats? yeah sure and orc rogues are completely broken just look at this from Ilja Games:

Orc Rogue Superpower [Combat]
Benefit: As a standard action you may win the game


Is it this one? http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=1410.html


As someone who has published works in third party publishers; Open Design to be specific, I take a bit of offense here Ilja. Yes, some things are overpowered, but we work hard to make sure everything balances with existing rules. There is already a feat allowing elves to add their Int bonus to damage from bows, so why not one to add the bonus to the attack roll, especially when you give it proper prerequisites? It's not a PFS game, and the player and GM discussed the feat before allowing it in game.

Zerocool: same feat name, different bonus, and different company. I'll ask the player where it's from and report back when I find it.


no sorry i didn't mean 3pp is overpowered, there's a lot of good stuff that's 3pp and i often use it, i just wanted to poke a bit fun of it. however, 3pp is just homebrew by people with a company so if we're discussing pf we should keep it pf, not use homebrew sources regardless of company status.

it might be perfectly balanced for them to have it but its still better than what they'd have otherwise (or you can just swap it for what they would have otherwise) so it really shouldn't be included when discussing things like this (just like Kirthfinder or ciretose's suggested fixes should be used)


Point taken. I guess I just consider 3pp stuff made for pathfinder to be pathfinder. As a rules discussion though, I agree with you; should've kept it straight Paizo product line, my bad.


Dawsjax wrote:
Perhaps combos is the wrong word. I was typing just before I went to sleep, my apologies. The qinggong monk becomes capable (with the correct build) of incredible bursts of power and methods to escape many predicaments a base monk could not. The player in our game uses Zen Archer and Qinggong, I'm fact I think I mentioned him before which may have sparked this discussion. Thanks to feat selection, he has an attack bonus and AC higher than the fighter, can fire his bow without provoking AoOs, holds onto the option of Scorching Ray, and can take gaseous form when bad things happen, such as an expert grappler enemy trying to hold him down. So, sorry, Finnish was the wrong word, but I disagree with the statement if monks being the weakest class. If built properly, they are beasts.

I don't get the OP part. Sounds like he made a monk with some cool tricks. And he didn't even really min-max. Taking scorching ray over the ability to be completely immune to difficult terrain is not a good choice imo. I have never once though, 'if only I could cast a scorching ray right now.' Gaseous form also does not make you immune to damage, particularly at the higher levels when things have magic weapons and/or spells, and it kills your movement. It also eats 2 ki points. Yeah, the ZAM has a lot of ki, but that's still expensive. If you're fighting more than once per day he's really not going to want to waste ki on GF. And being grappled isn't really high on the worry list for any monk with their CMD.

I'm playing a ZAM/QG right now as well, and I gotta say it's a blast. I went a slightly different route though, preferring to avoid difficult terrain and took hydro torrent instead of GF.(It's naval campaign, I wanted to be able to blow people off our boat) ;) I also took snake style, which is amazing for a zam...

It's so rare we get monk envy threads here, it's a nice change of pace from the usual torrent of monk hate... =p

Andoran

How does a Zen Archer get to take Vows? Vows require the character to give up Still Mind and the ZAM swaps Still Mind for Point Blank Master at level 3.

Sczarni

Midnighter wrote:
How does a Zen Archer get to take Vows? Vows require the character to give up Still Mind and the ZAM swaps Still Mind for Point Blank Master at level 3.

How do Ninja's take vows? By RAW they are entitled to - so I presume the Zen Archer takes them the same way... An errata on that (or the Ninja's at least) would be nice.

Sczarni

Ilja wrote:

Stats or it didn't happen. At what level is this? I have a hard time seeing a level 1 monk soloing a sea hag or forest drake in a round or two. Or a level 5 monk soloing a Marai or two-headed troll.

Hit and runs might work but hardly in a round or two and hardly without the monster going "well okay, I'll go home and eat some villagers instead of caring about this annoying wasp".

I think qui-gon archers are useful and a balanced class, but I can't see them pulling those stunts.

Starting around 6th level is when it begins for the ZAM. But specifically I was referring to level 20. And I was a bit off earlier (the post was made off the cuff without researching). In the link below you'll see it's actually CR +5 (Tarrasque), but does take considerably longer then a round or two. But still, no damage received so all is well in Monk land.

You can read about it in this Guide to the Zen Archer

Granted the fight rules outlined in the Trial of Beastmass don't reflect actual game play, I believe they are designed to represent average rolls whenever possible.

And while I am fairly sure that other classes could handle Beastmass as well as One, the ZAM, I'm still waiting (eagerly) to read about it.

The guide after the link is an entertaining read in the very least.

Cheers,

D


Midnighter wrote:
How does a Zen Archer get to take Vows? Vows require the character to give up Still Mind and the ZAM swaps Still Mind for Point Blank Master at level 3.

Huh, thanks for pointing that out. Never noticed that. Guess my ZAM has two less ki than I thought. (But now I can start lying!) lol


Dawsjax wrote:
It's a 3rd party feat, I don't recall the company off hand. Yeah, the monk does cycle through ammo. We're in a dungeon crawl now, and he's already used about half his supply and is hoping some show up soon in treasure piles.

IMO, this is why the monk is so strong. From what you have described, your group uses 3rd party feats and house rules that benefit the monk.


Wait, so it's not "monks can take CR+3 in a round or two" it's "20th level monks can take out this specific monster if given enough time"?

ANY class can make a char that can easily take out the tarrasque at 20 if given enough time. The issue with the tarrasque is that it's probably eating through a city or something so you might not have time, even if it can't hurt you flying far up there.


What about you make a 6th level and a 12th level monk and we can pit them against some random CR9 and CR15 monsters and some things from the NPC gallery? That'd be a more adequate challenge :)

Sczarni

Read the guide then make a level 20 character that can pass the trial of beastmass if you think any character can do it. Report back when done because I'm sure lots of people would love to read about it. I started trying this with a Fighter Archer 20 but failed - admittedly though my optimization skills are weak.

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qnl


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Viktyr Gehrig wrote:
Qingong Monk shouldn't so much be an archetype as Monk errata. Maybe for 2nd Ed.

I hope not. While the Qingong monk is a vast improvement on the core monk, he still has the core monk's core problems: MAD, poor enhancement availability for the monk's supposed 'primary weapon', poor ability to deal with DR, and poor synergy with his primary features (flurry of blows & fast movement). I would hope these problems are addressed without going to a 2nd edition that may never happen.

Anyway, the design team have answered the original question.

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