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A world where all the bad things in APs come true


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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Let's assume PCs all over Golarion have failed in the same continuum,

That would leave a post apocalyptic world with some real nasties wandering around who would eventually bump into each other, presumably.

Who would win out?

Kazavon vs Tar Baphon?

Etc. etc.

The Idea of Ultimate BBEG that vie for power and control against each other amuses me somewhat, any opinions?

Sczarni

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

This reminds me of the graphic novel "Old Man Logan" where all the villains in the Marvel Universe win and split the world into several parts.

I suspect that a few of the BBEGs would do the same at first, but seek to overthrow each other over time.


Check out who appears in Runelords if a certain device is not disabled.

Yea.


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I think this would be a really cool Epic level AP for the Paizo to write.

Revisit the old bad guys, failure style.

The Pc's merge from say SD just having saved elves from epic destruction only to find other adventurer's around Golarion failed at CC, RotRL, CotCT and Serpent's Skull!

Oh no what to do!

An AP for Character levels 19 and beyond! hah!

Sczarni

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

CotCT could have a few big guys that need to be taken care of. There is a sleeping Old One with infinite tentacles under a mountain that could possibly be woken up by stupid adventurers. The mountain would be gone, and Korvosa would have two problems to worry about.

Taldor

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

It would be interesting to see Karzoug revelling glory and destruction for a short while until Mhar fully manifested...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ydersius would be back to his former power and leading his chosen people to reclaim their empire.


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I think Mhar wins.
Against everyone.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Unless, of course, the drow of Second Darkness, ah... miscalculate... if that happens?

Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber

Mhar wouldn't wake up if Karzoug wins - K would use the device to transport his army to the present, and Mhar would continue snoozing away. Unless things have changed in the hardcover release, Mhar only wakes up if the Denizens of Leng are left to screw with the time machine after Karzoug's out of the picture. Right?

I'd say either Ydersius or Tar-Baphon. This isn't an easy match to determine, because Ydersius was defeated (but not killed) by a mythic mortal in the past, and Tar-Baphon has killed (not just defeated) a god, so... flip a coin I guess.


The funny thing is with Karzoug the players are coming for him. Mhar is just a sideline. I think it was possible to defeat K and not foil the Denizens. I could be wrong. It's been a long time since I ran that one.


so what Kazavon was a punk? poor dragons they go no respect.

hat about this continent of mad genies warping reality? and what about the kobold king who NEVER gets thwarted in bloodsworn vale?? eeeep!


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Well, let's see what would happen, in order. Warning, Spoilers abound

Rise of the Runelords: Assuming the players screw up the portal, the Runelord of Greed (Level 20, 25 point build as per Anniversary Edition) would win and begin a campaign of giant domination, then absorbing most of the lands of Varisia around him.

Curse of the Crimson Throne: Meanwhile, Kazavon, a Great Wyrm blue dragon (CR 21, with some abilities granted by Zon-Kuthon implied), comes back to life and being about a match with Karzoug, they would at least come to a stalemate between the army of giants and Kazavon's army of orcs from Belkzen. He'd probably own Korvosa and the Cinderlands.

Second Darkness: This is a tough one because technically, Karzoug ran away from the first Earthfall and so a second one would probably be enough to send him back into hiding. We'll come back to this later

Legacy of Fire: Xotani would wreck all of Pale Mountain and Kelmarane, but afterwards depart for the Plane of Fire to find Ymeri. For the moment, Karzoug and Kazavon wouldn't have to deal with him until he returned, so in the meantime, Xotani is out of the fight. If he returned, Xotani would be CR 22 (CR 24 with the d20pfsrd Pathfinder Conversion).

Council of Thieves: Ecarridian, while powerful, is quite the lightweight compared to the likes of Kazavon and Karzoug. With those two probably fighting each other, I think it'd give Ecarridian enough time to gain further power from his father, Mammon and become a real heavy hitter.

Kingmaker: Nyrissa isn't as 'world threatening' as the others above. I'd imagine that she'd be happy to have her ability to love back as well as having a place amongst the Eldest. I see little reason for her to come back to the Material Plane.

Serpent's Skull: Alright, now here is a heavyweight. Ydersius is a powerful demigod, probably a CR 20 with 10 Mythic Levels. With him waking and rallying the serpentfolk to arms, both Karzoug and Kazavon will have their hands full trying to keep the serpent god at bay.

Carrion Crown: Assuming the players lose, Adivion is still trapped inside of Gallowspire. While he is closer to bringing Tar-Baphon back, he still needs time to break the seals. He'd spend much of his time doing so, freeing a level 20+ necromancer that killed a demigod, making him a real contender against Ydersius.

Jade Regent: Takahiro and Anamurumon would probably focus the majority of their attention on Tian Xia, rather than duking it out with the others.

Skull and Shackles is the only AP I do not own...

Shattered Star: it is alluded that Emperor Xin and his clockwork army rises from the depths. He'd probably be looking for revenge against Karzoug and the other Runelords.

So honestly, I'd see Karzoug and Kazavon as warring factions, with Ecarridian and Adivion as growing powers and Ydersius as a real heavyweight. Would make for a terrifying world.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Re: Curse of the Crimson Throne

Spoiler:
The situation is a bit less dire if the PCs fail outright: Kazavon doesn't come back(even in a diminished form), it's an immortal Queen Ileosa hopped up on Kazavon and devilade who jets off to play Sorshen somewhere else with whatever shiny new city or country catches her eye.

This still results in Korvosa ending up a dead husk of a city though.

And the "bit less" part probably comes into play when Ileosa just takes a bit of time to become as bad as either Kazavon or Sorshen ever were.


I thought Karzoug was good in diplomacy and trickery with blue dragons, I think given enough time, he'd make Kazavon his pet, or at least right hand ally.


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KingmanHighborn wrote:
I thought Karzoug was good in diplomacy and trickery with blue dragons, I think given enough time, he'd make Kazavon his pet, or at least right hand ally.

kazavon only submits to one


Well then bussiness partner.


Odraude wrote:

Well, let's see what would happen, in order. Warning, Spoilers abound

Rise of the Runelords: Assuming the players screw up the portal, the Runelord of Greed (Level 20, 25 point build as per Anniversary Edition) would win and begin a campaign of giant domination, then absorbing most of the lands of Varisia around him.

Curse of the Crimson Throne: Meanwhile, Kazavon, a Great Wyrm blue dragon (CR 21, with some abilities granted by Zon-Kuthon implied), comes back to life and being about a match with Karzoug, they would at least come to a stalemate between the army of giants and Kazavon's army of orcs from Belkzen. He'd probably own Korvosa and the Cinderlands.

Second Darkness: This is a tough one because technically, Karzoug ran away from the first Earthfall and so a second one would probably be enough to send him back into hiding. We'll come back to this later

Legacy of Fire: Xotani would wreck all of Pale Mountain and Kelmarane, but afterwards depart for the Plane of Fire to find Ymeri. For the moment, Karzoug and Kazavon wouldn't have to deal with him until he returned, so in the meantime, Xotani is out of the fight. If he returned, Xotani would be CR 22 (CR 24 with the d20pfsrd Pathfinder Conversion).

Council of Thieves: Ecarridian, while powerful, is quite the lightweight compared to the likes of Kazavon and Karzoug. With those two probably fighting each other, I think it'd give Ecarridian enough time to gain further power from his father, Mammon and become a real heavy hitter.

Kingmaker: Nyrissa isn't as 'world threatening' as the others above. I'd imagine that she'd be happy to have her ability to love back as well as having a place amongst the Eldest. I see little reason for her to come back to the Material Plane.

Serpent's Skull: Alright, now here is a heavyweight. Ydersius is a powerful demigod, probably a CR 20 with 10 Mythic Levels. With him waking and rallying the serpentfolk to arms, both Karzoug and Kazavon will have their hands full trying to keep the serpent god at bay....

And what if Mhar does get out instead of the portal getting broken?

Imagine the awesomeness of Karzoug, Ydersius, Xotani and Kazavon vs Mhar.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Odraude wrote:

Well, let's see what would happen, in order. Warning, Spoilers abound

Rise of the Runelords: Assuming the players screw up the portal, the Runelord of Greed (Level 20, 25 point build as per Anniversary Edition) would win and begin a campaign of giant domination, then absorbing most of the lands of Varisia around him.

Curse of the Crimson Throne: Meanwhile, Kazavon, a Great Wyrm blue dragon (CR 21, with some abilities granted by Zon-Kuthon implied), comes back to life and being about a match with Karzoug, they would at least come to a stalemate between the army of giants and Kazavon's army of orcs from Belkzen. He'd probably own Korvosa and the Cinderlands.

Second Darkness: This is a tough one because technically, Karzoug ran away from the first Earthfall and so a second one would probably be enough to send him back into hiding. We'll come back to this later

Legacy of Fire: Xotani would wreck all of Pale Mountain and Kelmarane, but afterwards depart for the Plane of Fire to find Ymeri. For the moment, Karzoug and Kazavon wouldn't have to deal with him until he returned, so in the meantime, Xotani is out of the fight. If he returned, Xotani would be CR 22 (CR 24 with the d20pfsrd Pathfinder Conversion).

Council of Thieves: Ecarridian, while powerful, is quite the lightweight compared to the likes of Kazavon and Karzoug. With those two probably fighting each other, I think it'd give Ecarridian enough time to gain further power from his father, Mammon and become a real heavy hitter.

Kingmaker: Nyrissa isn't as 'world threatening' as the others above. I'd imagine that she'd be happy to have her ability to love back as well as having a place amongst the Eldest. I see little reason for her to come back to the Material Plane.

Serpent's Skull: Alright, now here is a heavyweight. Ydersius is a powerful demigod, probably a CR 20 with 10 Mythic Levels. With him waking and rallying the serpentfolk to arms, both Karzoug and Kazavon will have their hands full trying to keep the serpent god at bay....

Solid Recap. Honestly Skull and Shackles would not contribute much to this. Cheliax would invade the Shackles, pirates would be spread out and the Hurricane King dethroned. Other then that not much would happen, and it sure would not effect the world in a way that most of the other APs do. Cheliax might become somewhat stronger, start to rebuild and have better trade, but I feel like any effect would take too long to show up in a world full of BBEG.


Doesn't Carrion Crown have another potential Big Bad (in wake of the watcher)?


Belle Mythix wrote:

Doesn't Carrion Crown have another potential Big Bad (in wake of the watcher)?

That is true, but the above assumptions was that the PCs beat everything up until the final boss. So that's why I didn't have Mhar erupt or any Old Ones come out.


Aaah, that explains the absence of Mhar.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber

Woops, I forgot that, after Count Galdana is rescued, there's no chance that Tar-Baphon would be freed. In fact, given that Adivion is forced to stay near Gallowspire as a forsaken lich, he'd probably be the most harmless BBEG of them all. At least for a while.

Thus, my vote goes for Ydersius. He's the only one with godlike powers, and at full strength, would thwomp the other BBEGs combined.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:

And what if Mhar does get out instead of the portal getting broken?

Imagine the awesomeness of Karzoug, Ydersius, Xotani and Kazavon vs Mhar.

That would be a hell of a fun one-shot to play.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Timothy Hanson wrote:
Odraude wrote:


Skull and Shackles is the only AP I do not own...

Solid Recap. Honestly Skull and Shackles would not contribute much to this. Cheliax would invade the Shackles, pirates would be spread out and the Hurricane King dethroned. Other then that not much would happen, and it sure would not effect the world in a way that most of the other APs do. Cheliax might become somewhat stronger, start to rebuild and have better trade, but I feel like any effect would take too long to show up in a world full of BBEG.

IMHO, Skull and Shackles might be largely negated by this. With the rise of numerous dangerous ancient powers to the north there would likely be little support for a military expedition to the Shackles.

Admiral Thrune might try to go ahead with her plans anyway in order to present the Empire with a fait accompli, only to find herself abandoned, becoming little more than another would-be claimant to the title of Hurricane King.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Son of the Veterinarian wrote:
IMHO, Skull and Shackles might be largely negated by this. With the rise of numerous dangerous ancient powers to the north there would likely be little support for a military expedition to the Shackles.

Likewise, I'd think that Shattered Star would be negated, or at least made considerably more difficult, if only due to the massive disruptions in society going on in the Varisia region if the earlier APs end badly.


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Rovagug.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Odraude wrote:

Well, let's see what would happen, in order. Warning, Spoilers abound

Rise of the Runelords: Assuming the players screw up the portal, the Runelord of Greed (Level 20, 25 point build as per Anniversary Edition) would win and begin a campaign of giant domination, then absorbing most of the lands of Varisia around him.

Curse of the Crimson Throne: Meanwhile, Kazavon, a Great Wyrm blue dragon (CR 21, with some abilities granted by Zon-Kuthon implied), comes back to life and being about a match with Karzoug, they would at least come to a stalemate between the army of giants and Kazavon's army of orcs from Belkzen. He'd probably own Korvosa and the Cinderlands.

Second Darkness: This is a tough one because technically, Karzoug ran away from the first Earthfall and so a second one would probably be enough to send him back into hiding. We'll come back to this later

Legacy of Fire: Xotani would wreck all of Pale Mountain and Kelmarane, but afterwards depart for the Plane of Fire to find Ymeri. For the moment, Karzoug and Kazavon wouldn't have to deal with him until he returned, so in the meantime, Xotani is out of the fight. If he returned, Xotani would be CR 22 (CR 24 with the d20pfsrd Pathfinder Conversion).

Council of Thieves: Ecarridian, while powerful, is quite the lightweight compared to the likes of Kazavon and Karzoug. With those two probably fighting each other, I think it'd give Ecarridian enough time to gain further power from his father, Mammon and become a real heavy hitter.

Kingmaker: Nyrissa isn't as 'world threatening' as the others above. I'd imagine that she'd be happy to have her ability to love back as well as having a place amongst the Eldest. I see little reason for her to come back to the Material Plane.

Serpent's Skull: Alright, now here is a heavyweight. Ydersius is a powerful demigod, probably a CR 20 with 10 Mythic Levels. With him waking and rallying the serpentfolk to arms, both Karzoug and Kazavon will have their hands full trying to keep the serpent god at bay....

An excellent summary indeed, though I will point out that Ydersius might not even be the most dangerous thing to emerge in the wake of an unsuccessful Serpent's Skull campaign. In addition to a rampaging demigod on the loose, you'd potentially have an unknown number of Serpentfolk awakening, at least a few of whom are likely casters nearly as powerful as Karzoug himself.

Even without such powerful magic, however, Ydersius would be backed up by an army of inhuman super-geniuses with mind control powers and the ability to create nearly undetectable infiltrators and assassins. The Coils of Ydersius could potentially hamstring both Karzoug and Kazavon's ambitions since both rely, to some degree, on humanoid forces, and Severenagati is located right underneath Varisia.

Assuming Mhar doesn't up and destroy the world while battles still rage across Varisia, I could honestly see Karzoug getting desperate enough to try and wake up some of the other Runelords once he figures out that the Serpentfolk are on the rise again. The biggest wild card at that point would probably be the gods themselves; Desna would almost certainly get involved to some degree once Ydersius made his presence known, and even less reckless deities like Abadar have intervened in the past on the side of humanity


Cthulhudrew wrote:
Likewise, I'd think that Shattered Star would be negated, or at least made considerably more difficult, if only due to the massive disruptions in society going on in the Varisia region if the earlier APs end badly.

More difficult, definitely, but on the other hand the motivation to kick off the artifact hunt would be all the stronger. Now you aren't looking to prevent the possible return of other runelords -- you're looking for a superweapon to knock down the one in charge!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
John Mangrum wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Likewise, I'd think that Shattered Star would be negated, or at least made considerably more difficult, if only due to the massive disruptions in society going on in the Varisia region if the earlier APs end badly.
More difficult, definitely, but on the other hand the motivation to kick off the artifact hunt would be all the stronger. Now you aren't looking to prevent the possible return of other runelords -- you're looking for a superweapon to knock down the one in charge!

You would have to rework the AP to take into account that Magnimar is likely either destroyed or under occupation by Karzoug, Kazavon, or Cheliax.

Grand Lodge

I think that should the PCs REALLY fail in Carrion Crown then Caldana would be used by Adivion as a new host thingy for Tar-Baphon.

In my CC campaign I realized that there was no real reason for the PCs to fight Adivion once they rescued Caldana, so I moved the count to the top of the spire and had the PCs arrive JUST in the nick of time. Course, the mage, realizing that without the count the plan is foiled, immediately killed the count in the first round- AWESOME!

But, should the PCs really fail, yeah the Whispering Tyrant is back! Woo-Hoo!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

Rise of the Runelords, Karzoug awakens, vies for power with the resurrected Kazavon and his chosen Queen. Then rocks fall, Varisia gets destroyed. With the last Kaijutsu dead Minkai faces an unending age of Oni rule. Tar-Baphon raises undead armies from Ustalav and the ruin of Varisia. The ship bound for Eleder from Magnimar is sunk.

The Serpentfolk return along with their resurrected god going to war with the Rough Beast's spawn arisen in Katapesh.

Cheliax claims the Shackles, but loses Westcrown to the predations of Hell & The Shadow Plane.

Xin rises from the ocean but his tick-tocks are no match for the unending undead hordes of Tar-Baphon.

Meanwhile a swath of the River Kingdoms is ripped into the First World.

Slightly in the future Irresin goes to war with Tar-Baphon, endless winter grips the world. The Worldwound breaks past the wardstones, kill everything over yonder.

Cats and Dogs living together.

Mass Hysteria.

Did I miss anything?

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Rise of the Runelords, Karzoug awakens, vies for power with the resurrected Kazavon and his chosen Queen. Then rocks fall, Varisia gets destroyed. With the last Kaijutsu dead Minkai faces an unending age of Oni rule. Tar-Baphon raises undead armies from Ustalav and the ruin of Varisia. The ship bound for Eleder from Magnimar is sunk.

The Serpentfolk return along with their resurrected god going to war with the Rough Beast's spawn arisen in Katapesh.

Cheliax claims the Shackles, but loses Westcrown to the predations of Hell & The Shadow Plane.

Xin rises from the ocean but his tick-tocks are no match for the unending undead hordes of Tar-Baphon.

Meanwhile a swath of the River Kingdoms is ripped into the First World.

Slightly in the future Irresin goes to war with Tar-Baphon, endless winter grips the world. The Worldwound breaks past the wardstones, kill everything over yonder.

Cats and Dogs living together.

Mass Hysteria.

Did I miss anything?

Not much, though somewhere along the line an unrelated horde of undead might start pouring through a portal in the Sodden Lands, something unspeakably nasty might crawl up out of the Nemesis Well in Osibu, Qlippoth might overrun Tianjing (and probably a significant chunk of Tian Xia), Rovagug's prison might be cracked open as a result of any number of mad schemes, the gods might get distracted enough for Lamashtu to get her hands on Shelyn...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


Cats and Dogs living together.

Mass Hysteria.

Did I miss anything?

There's that Cyclops Lich from Kingmaker still running around.


I think it's fair to say that anything before the BBEG fight was beaten, or else they wouldn't have even made it that far to beat them.


yea the part where a group of 19th level adventurers embarks to try and stop it all! Write the Epic AP!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

Well I assume any mini-boss is either allied with the main boss or wiped out. Vordecai would be snapped up with the rest of the Stolen Lands being outclassed by Nyrissa. I sort of assumed its a world where no PCs existed to save any days.


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If Vordakai recovered his full power, he'd wipe the floor with Nyrissa...

Andoran

This thread reminds me fondly of the Gehenna scenarios of Vampire the Masquerade, especially those with insane, cruel and evil demi-gods each openly ruling his or her own part of the planet.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
If Vordakai recovered his full power, he'd wipe the floor with Nyrissa...

That's a big if, instead you'd see a 4 way skirmish between Irovetti's Pitax, Armag Twice-Born's Tiger Lord Barbarians, Hargulka's Monster Kingdom and Vordakai's Undead Army. Locked in war Pitax would gain ground (thanks to being the one kingdom able to call on assistance from neighbouring River Kingdoms) and then BOOM First World Blooms. Vordakai, Irovetti, Armag and Hargulka become minis in Nyrissa's bottled Kingdom. Nobody weeps at the loss of such savage and brutal warlords, and the inexplicable wasteland never regrows, remaining a dusty scar across the face of the River Kingdoms.


Knowing that Vordakai has the backing of the Four Horsemen, I doubt that Nyrissa could pluck him up that easily.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

They didn't help when the PCs dropped him. Vordakai's been asleep too long to enact the Horsemen's wishes. In order to regain power he'd need centuries. He doesn't have that, it all comes down to timing. Nyrissa's plan goes off before Vordakai's.
At full strength it might be different, but sadly atrophied as he is, he gets to be a plaything for Count Ranalc.


Huh, I thought it wouldn't take him long after all the offered souls he could give to the Horsemen to gradually recover.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The biggest problem, I think, is what happens if the drow plan comes to fruition in Second Darkness.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cthulhudrew wrote:
The biggest problem, I think, is what happens if the drow plan comes to fruition in Second Darkness.

I said it before, I'll say it again.

Rocks fall, everyone dies.


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The whole world doesn't end with that scenario, just kyonin.

The Dark elf thing is much smaller than the original aboleth thing.

However, if they get the elves first there are always other targets, could try it again i suppose.

Wonder if they could hit ydersius on the nose with one?

How would Drow interact with Serpent Folk, wouldnt they be romping the same territory?


Drow would no doubt be hostile to the Serpent Folk and visa-versa. Best result is a kind of true where they each have their MAD weapons.

Andoran

I'm not sure the Serpentfolk and the Drow would necessarily interact much, at least not at first. The surviving Serpentfolk cities in Sekamina are pretty far from the domains of the dark elves, and the Serpentfolk are likely to pursue their vendetta against humanity before turning to affairs in the Darklands.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Pendagast wrote:

The whole world doesn't end with that scenario, just kyonin.

The Dark elf thing is much smaller than the original aboleth thing

If I drop a meteor capable of wiping out France, it's just silly to assume that nobody else is going to take any damage.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Andrea1 wrote:
Drow would no doubt be hostile to the Serpent Folk and visa-versa.

This is a campaign that needs to happen.

And now we need the fleshwarping results for serpentfolk!

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