A world where all the bad things in APs come true


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Ah: that they have mythic tiers themselves is a piece of important information that I didn't hold. Hence the feeling that your players should generally be informed to have their "A" game (and maybe bring their "S++" game, depending on their power level). :)

Either way, it's just a difference in play style and/or information held, hence sharing concerns. (Not the mythic thing* - the information communication thing.) We're cool.

That said, due to not having played or run the RotR, I've mostly avoided major spoilers (though I know that - gasp - a Runelord Rises! Oh no!), and will probably continue to do so. To that end, I've kind of only skimmed some posts in this thread. If there was information that you were otherwise running a mythic game, I probably just missed it. :D

Either way - as long as you guys enjoy!

* I've added mythic to both Council of Thieves (finished) and Carrion Crown (ongoing) games, so, you know, I'm a pretty big fan of those. :D


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Tacticslion wrote:

Ah: that they have mythic tiers themselves is a piece of important information that I didn't hold. Hence the feeling that your players should generally be informed to have their "A" game (and maybe bring their "S++" game, depending on their power level). :)

Either way, it's just a difference in play style and/or information held, hence sharing concerns. (Not the mythic thing* - the information communication thing.) We're cool.

That said, due to not having played or run the RotR, I've mostly avoided major spoilers (though I know that - gasp - a Runelord Rises! Oh no!), and will probably continue to do so. To that end, I've kind of only skimmed some posts in this thread. If there was information that you were otherwise running a mythic game, I probably just missed it. :D

Either way - as long as you guys enjoy!

* I've added mythic to both Council of Thieves (finished) and Carrion Crown (ongoing) games, so, you know, I'm a pretty big fan of those. :D

Can be useful in CC (especially if one want to extend the campaign into fighting the Whispering Tyrant).

It would be useful in Shattered Star (some of the last bosses are prototypes for mythic characters)


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@Tangent I think people are saying to let the players know that using the weak spots harms Karzoug not the specific mechanics behind it.


^ What he said. Also, "let the players know" doesn't necessarily mean, "tell them out of character" either. :D

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Can be useful in CC (especially if one want to extend the campaign into fighting the Whispering Tyrant).

It would be useful in Shattered Star (some of the last bosses are prototypes for mythic characters)

RE: CC: absolutely, sure, but, on-the-whole, it's a lower-powered set of modules and the nature of mythic takes much of the 'scary' away (as your players are literal superheroes).

RE: SS: Thanks! I'm planning on it. :D

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Neongelion wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Iron Gods Against The WorldWound now THATS a Movie!

Armies of machines and cyborgs vs. hordes of demons who will inevitably utilize technology of their own and become cyberdemons?

*heavy breathing*

MMCJawa wrote:

The Technic League got their butts handed to them by the demon armies in the Wrath of the Righteous "what goes wrong" section. But that is because the Technic League doesn't really have a clue of what it's doing. I presume the Iron Gods will be completely cognizant of how advanced technology works, and will be more than capable of putting up a good defense.

Or they could just say screw it, repair their spaceship, and get the hell off Golarion and leave it to the demons/Tar Baphon/whatever else.

Assuming the end goal of the Iron Gods is to become true deities, I can definitely see them putting up a very good defense---and maybe an offense---against the Worldwound demons. Maybe not stop them---even machine demigods won't do much against a demon lord---but maybe become one of the few "safe" havens for people as long as they abide by the rigid, draconic laws of new Numeria that makes even Cheliax squirm uncomfortably.

So DOOM, this is DOOM, presumably that means the Demons get assimilated and a new Worldwound opens on Mars.


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It occurs to me that I am guilty of never looking at Garund like I said I would. I should do that one of these days.

Dreaming Psion wrote:
On Garund, I think we'd have Ysderius most immediately come into conflict with the reborn Sky Pharoah Hakotep. Since Mummy's Mask seems to occur in the chronology a bit later than Serpent's Skull, Ysderius may have more time to get his act in order. Since the waking serpent people more or less unquestioningly follow him, I can see him overtaking a northern Garund in conflict as Hakotep's rise throws the region into chaos.

As was pointed out with Elvanna, the general low/sub-zero temperatures would make activity very difficult for Ydersius, even moreso as he tries to push northward. It could potentially be countered, maybe, but at risk of spoiling the divine contract that Ydersius is operating on. Exactly how he's able to walk around as a fully incarnated deity I'm still not sure.

With Hakotep in play along with all his pyramids and Shory aeromancy, I'd guess that he would be the main origin for PCs in Garund, since his rule would probably be more suitable than Ydersius. Or you could always come from Geb, I guess. Somewhat akin to Thassilon 2.0 or the Inner Sea Alliance.

Additionally, the post-campaign for Mummy's Mask also has the suddenly-not-actually-dead Ulunat coming back to life, which could create a lesser variant of Mhar in Avistan, though more in the sense that Ulunat would probably be a roaming "mega boss" that people avoid and/or dread. Although if it goes too far south, then it'll probably meet its end at Ydersius' hand/claw/whatever.

Peter Stewart wrote:
Without Cheliax I have trouble seeing the rest of the Inner Sea Alliance surviving against the demons, especially since they present what is effectively the path of least resistance to the demons (I suspect that the Whispering Tyrant, Irrisen, and others present a much larger threat than Taldor for instance).

The Hellknights are not technically beholden to the Chelish throne, and they're called out as the ones managing the volunteers, so if Cheliax is busy falling into a civil war with itself, then Xin could swoop down and grab Nidal, or Nidal might stick with Cheliax and become embroiled in Molthune-Nirmathas 2: Electric Boogaloo. You'd have Ileosa on one side, and Thrune with the backing of Hell on the other. Could be interesting, I'll admit.

Quote:
As some have pointed out, Sorshen rises as a result of Crimson Throne, which puts another power player on the board. I'm not sure how she's being cast as a Wizard20/Archmage10 (not that I disagree), but whether or not she sides with the other Runelords she's a big piece on the board.

James Jacobs has said that she had Trickster tiers, not Archmage, and that she's about CR 26 (Enchanter 20 + Trickster 10 + Azlanti race + 25 PB + PC wealth = CR 26, by the numbers).

MMCJawa wrote:
The Technic League got their butts handed to them by the demon armies in the Wrath of the Righteous "what goes wrong" section. But that is because the Technic League doesn't really have a clue of what it's doing. I presume the Iron Gods will be completely cognizant of how advanced technology works, and will be more than capable of putting up a good defense.

I'll be the naysayer and go with the hypothesis that it won't make much difference in the long run, for a couple of reasons:

1) Location. Numeria is right in the path of the advancing Worldwound and demonic hordes. They're going to be one of the first and heaviest hit. It's basically the same problem that the Kingmaker PC-built kingdom suffers from. Escape is the best option, if escape is possible.

2) "After the Campaign" in City of Locusts. It states that the Technic League initially does mount a good defense, and gives as good as they get. However, there are more demons than technology, and very quickly the demons just take the tech and adapt it so they can start using it themselves. Having an Iron God in charge won't change that.

Best case scenario, Numeria holds out a bit longer than it would under the Technic League, since it'll have an Iron God to coordinate all the resources of the Silver Mount in combat against the encroaching demons. However, this will also open things up for the demons to eventually roll them over and become tech-equipped anyway. Middling case, the nuke goes off as noted in the WotR ending. Worst case, Unity sides with the demons.

I'm going to stick with the undead down in Ustalav under Tar-Baphon's command as the best place to have the holding action, rather than Numeria.

lucky7 wrote:
The question is, how long until someone gets a hand on the Oliphaunt of Jandelay. My bets bet is on Karzoug, as he has access to the Spindlehorn and saw it in action back in the day.

Karzoug never saw the Oliphaunt in action. One of his predecessors as Runelord of Greed did.

I factored the Oliphaunt into my initial analysis, as the ace in the hole for Xin's new clockwork Thassilon. Alderpash has spent his many thousands of years of imprisonment researching the Oliphaunt and Jandelay, so coupled with Karzoug and Xin (and maybe Sorshen, though it definitely means Thassilon 2.0 will fall into evil) they may well be able to put it back together and use it as their Godzilla Threshold.

ulgolanoth wrote:
hm, I wonder if through PFS scenarios or some of the modules in the module line, if they also failed if any additional doom would be added to the world or if it wouldn't have much impact at all?

Well, I'm admittedly not vastly familiar with the PFS scenarios as a whole. However, one that does spring to mind is Runelord Krune. If we ignore the bit about how he's stopped anyway off-screen if the PCs fail in the scenario, then that adds another Runelord to Xin's growing realm. Join that to Zutha's potential resurrection in the aftermath of Shattered Star, and Xin's empire (well, not really Xin's empire at this point, but anyway) becomes even more powerful than before, a strong stabilising force in the region and a real power player.

You'd have:

- Xin (CR 21 + 20th level Universalist, definitely a couple of CR points, plus his vast clockwork legions)
- Karzoug (CR 21 Transmuter, commanding armies from the past and all the wealth of Xin-Shalast)
- Alderpash (CR 20 lich Evoker with knowledge of Jandelay and the Oliphaunt)
- Sorshen (CR 26 Enchanter 20 with 10 Trickster tiers; by far the most powerful of them and likely the one who'll end up ruling)
- Krune (CR 18 Conjurer; not the strongest at all, but has mastery of rune magic, links to Lissala, and as a conjurer will be able to whistle up extraplanar armies)
- Zutha (CR 20-21 lich Necromancer; possibly a buffer or control factor against Tar-Baphon, since the Tyrant learned most of what he knew from Thassilon, including Zutha's Cenotaph)
- Fafnheir (CR 24 Linnorm; if he hightails it south to work for Xin and Thassilon 2.0)
- Oliphaunt (CR 30; if they can work out how to summon it, but I like to think they can for the coolness factor; since working out the summoning involves mythic trials and gaining mythic tiers, a couple more people on this list would be mythic before it was over)

We're well on our way to returning Thassilon from the grave, and are only missing the Runelord of Envy (no great loss) and Runelord of Pride (definitely a loss, since he's the only one of them who could stand against Sorshen in a straight fight and actually witnessed the Oliphaunt's summoning back in the day).

Even against things like Mhar, Mythic Elvanna and the Whispering Tyrant, Thassilon 2.0 is not something you would want to underestimate. Especially if you're Ileosa, since Sorshen did it first and did it better. This does introduce the possible power-player of Ayandamahla (CR 24 succubus bard 20) into the equation, who may join forces with Ileosa as a chance to oppose Sorshen now that her former mistress has risen, but siding with Ileosa there will probably just result in more chaos down in Cheliax.

Other random bits of interest that come to mind:

- Yjae, the lost Shory city, is floating around up in the north. If Leng could be cleared out from it, then PCs would have a potentially powerful mythic ally.
- The Shackles, well, nobody really cares about the Shackles.
- What happens to Nidal if Ileosa is defeated, but Kazavon (Zon-Kuthon's favourite dragon) rises instead?
- What happens down in Geb, with Arazni knowing Tar-Baphon is back and Geb a powerful mythic Necromancer himself?
- Nex?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Peter Stewart wrote:
I regard divine politics as sort of like the Cold War. They can nudge things, they can arm and provide advice to those that fight for them, but the moment one jumps into the fray directly everyone knows the entire thing will spiral into Armageddon. As a result generally speaking both the good and evil gods just sort of sit on the sidelines rather than wreck the world.

Which is fine, until demons eat all your worshippers.


I think if we are going with the "All the runelords show back up" worst case scenario, than I think they would be more focused on offing each other than than conquering the world. I think they are actually more dangerous if only one or two show up, otherwise you are looking at something like a multi-player civil war in Varisia. Worst, at least some runelords dealt heavily with demons, so some of the new factions would probably join forces with the worldwound.

What happens in Iron Gods isn't fully revealed. I kind of lean on the idea that Divinity will just get out of Numeria and into orbit. Although if Unity get's significant assets offworld, can anyone say orbital weapons platform? Personally I wouldn't underestimate the abilities of an AI with super-advanced manufacturing technique.


magnuskn wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
I regard divine politics as sort of like the Cold War. They can nudge things, they can arm and provide advice to those that fight for them, but the moment one jumps into the fray directly everyone knows the entire thing will spiral into Armageddon. As a result generally speaking both the good and evil gods just sort of sit on the sidelines rather than wreck the world.
Which is fine, until demons eat all your worshippers.

Well, a couple points.

1. Some of those demons are undoubtedly allies of evil deities, and they're going to object if the goodly gods go a-smiting. This brings us back to the nuclear option (because when gods fight, everyone loses).

2. Some gods will undoubtedly try to take advantage of the chaos to expand their own cults and churches, and will not be ok with other gods (especially goodly gods) stepping in and both putting an end to the chaos and collecting a bunch of glory as the saviors of the world.

3. Even if you could get all the gods on the same page about the demons, who goes down to go smiting? I somehow doubt that goodly and evil gods are going to be likely to work together and trust each other, and neither is likely to sign off on the others doing it alone (and gaining prestige) unless they are planning to stab them in the back the moment the threat is ended.


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The gods don't NEED to "go nuclear". What they can and will do is empower a great many of their devout, imbuing Mythic power in the highest level "PC class" servants available to them. This does not count anointing others with any of a variety of boons of far greater power than is the norm - single use summon monster spells can summon angels, archons, agathions and azata galore. In addition, they can call more souls into service, resulting in a lot more paladins.

The good guys may be in bad shape, but they're not done yet, not by a long shot. They definitely need to use some very unconventional tactics to deal with what mighty heroes have fallen attempting to deal with before them...


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MMCJawa wrote:
I think if we are going with the "All the runelords show back up" worst case scenario, than I think they would be more focused on offing each other than than conquering the world. I think they are actually more dangerous if only one or two show up, otherwise you are looking at something like a multi-player civil war in Varisia.

For my part, I'm not going with an invented worst-case scenario, just the "Beyond the Campaign" segments that bring some of them back:

- Karzoug assumes the PCs fail RotRL.
- Alderpash assumes the PCs succeed up until the last book of WotR.
- Krune assumes the PFS group sent to kill him fails and that the Society doesn't just gank him off-screen.
- Sorshen is from "Sorshen Lives!" and might not be truly awake, but it seems likely and an interesting hint.
- Xin (not a Runelord, but Thassilon 2.0) assumes the PCs fail S* and he regains the Sihedron.
- Zutha is based on the post-campaign article from S*.

I'll grant that Zutha doesn't actually return (The S* segment discusses it as what the PCs can go and stop) within the context of those articles. However, we've had a surprising amount of stuff dealing with the Runelords. Until one of them is returned in a specific AP or AP ending, however, I choose to exclude it from my own scenario. Thus, Alaznist, Belimarius and Xanderghul stay sleeping.

Quote:
Worst, at least some runelords dealt heavily with demons, so some of the new factions would probably join forces with the worldwound.

Sorshen had some deals with Nocticula (but she dealt with demons and devils alike, depending on what she needed - she's powerful enough to do so without wanting or needing to side with them) and Alaznist did with... I forget who, exactly, but she's still asleep. Alderpash did with Baphomet.

Assuming the PCs fail in the last book, Alderpash is free and Baphomet is no longer an issue. Either he's dead (highly likely) or Alderpash just got out of one imprisonment as a result of a bad deal, he's not going to go running back just yet. He may even have been atoned back to neutrality or a good alignment (not that it's likely to last for long if the people doing it were subsequently killed).

All in all, I doubt that any returned Runelords would go running to join the Worldwound. It would be a challenge to reconstructing their realms if it continues to expand, so they'd probably oppose it. They may all be evil and have been concerned with fighting each other in the past, but now they need to rebuild their domains and have a powerful external force to keep them focused in the meantime.

Shadow Lodge

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Alleran wrote:
Sorshen had some deals with Nocticula (but she dealt with demons and devils alike, depending on what she needed - she's powerful enough to do so without wanting or needing to side with them) and Alaznist did with... I forget who, exactly, but she's still asleep. Alderpash did with Baphomet.

Alaznist's deals were with the qlippoth lord Yamasoth.


I recall someone working out that a world where all the bad endings(minus Second Darkness) happened would actually be better prepared to deal with the fallout of Wrath of the Righteous' bad ending than a world where all the good things happened.


Probably a dumb question-

Why are sorshen and xanderghul so much more powerful/mythic? Just been at it longer?


Chris O'Reilly wrote:

Probably a dumb question-

Why are sorshen and xanderghul so much more powerful/mythic? Just been at it longer?

Yeah, pretty much. There was turnover with all of the other Runelords, but those two were the original runelords of Lust / Pride. As a result they are much older, more experienced, and powerful.


Chris O'Reilly wrote:

Probably a dumb question-

Why are sorshen and xanderghul so much more powerful/mythic? Just been at it longer?

They went Mythic back in the days of First King Xin, reportedly, and got more powerful over time to the point that they simply couldn't be toppled by anybody. None of the other Runelords as of the fall of Thassilon were the originals.

Xanderghul was powerful enough both personally and militarily that it's been stated his kingdom, Cyrusian, was never invaded by another Runelord. Granted, the strength of the illusions he wove meant nobody knew just how powerful he was, which undoubtedly helped.

(I like to think that Xanderghul and Sorshen were essentially "friendly enemies" just because they were so much older and more experienced than the other Runelords. After thousands and thousands of years of life, your worst enemy becomes a constant. You'll be around a thousand years from now, they'll be around a thousand years from now. Those other Runelords, not so much.

Like Crowley and Aziraphale in Good Omens. Or Doctor Doom and Reed Richards, from time to time. Or Londo and G'Kar.)


Okay, thanks. I wasn't sure if it was an intentional design decision or just some had been updated and others hadn't. I guess if theres two powerful ones to keep each other in check either runelord couldn't just conqueror all the others. That or despite being personally powerful the mythic runelords domains were not as militarily powerful (although it sounds like Xander had the best of both). Its hard to extrapolate power level from the wiki (like it says the few surviving accounts of Belimarius' rule were of perfect efficiency, so I'd have thought she was a power player)

Also, who invaded Sorshen?


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


{. . .}
We're well on our way to returning Thassilon from the grave, and are only missing the Runelord of Envy (no great loss) and Runelord of Pride (definitely a loss, since he's the only one of them who could stand against Sorshen in a straight fight and actually witnessed the Oliphaunt's summoning back in the day).
{. . .}

And given all else that is going on, somebody might decide that bringing back the remaining Runelords is their Godzilla Option . . . .


Chris O'Reilly wrote:

Probably a dumb question-

Why are sorshen and xanderghul so much more powerful/mythic? Just been at it longer?

They're just that good.

Jacobs has been pretty clear that NPC's being mythic has little to do with their age and more to do with their inherent skill, power, and the favor of destiny.

Sorshen and Xanderghul aren't mythic because they had long careers. They had long careers because they were mythic.

Also, wasn't Alaznist mythic, as well?


Actually, there is one thing to consider: the world is not better off to face a Worldwound Expansion if all the bad things happened compared to one where the heroes won.

How many scenarios do we have now for this? Nearly a dozen?

Imagine 40+ level 17+ heroes who have faced and defeated Runelords, almost-dead Gods, the Drow, and so much more... going on a mission into the expanding Worldwound to defeat the Demon Lord and stop the expansion.

When you consider how overpowered a Mythic Hero with even 5 tiers is... and the fact you could, in theory, play WotR with non-Mythic heroes and still have a decent chance of success...

Sure, many would likely die. But it would be akin to James Bond coming out of retirement for one final mission and kicking arse. And seeing that even just two additional heroes can throw off the APs as written... well, an additional 16 heroes of all classes? Including a couple of Bards to give these uber-high level characters +4 to hit and damage on top of their already-significant bonuses?


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Doing Necromancy on an old post in here:

Gnoll Bard wrote:


{. . .}
Not much, though somewhere along the line an unrelated horde of undead might start pouring through a portal in the Sodden Lands, something unspeakably nasty might crawl up out of the Nemesis Well in Osibu, Qlippoth might overrun Tianjing (and probably a significant chunk of Tian Xia), Rovagug's prison might be cracked open as a result of any number of mad schemes, the gods might get distracted enough for Lamashtu to get her hands on Shelyn...

Actually, now that I think about this some more, that last part might not go the way the way Lamashtu would think. Remember that Shelyn managed to disarm Zon-Kuthon of his evil glaive (Whisperer of Souls), so she's not as bad at combat as one might think at first sight. And then, instead of Whisperer of Souls corrupting her the way it allegedly corrupted him, she has not only remained uncorrupted but actually been getting the souls out of it (although the latter with help) and even gradually transforming it in the process, so even if Lamashtu succeeded in capturing Shelyn, the result might not be the expected one.


Just had another thought: What if all the bad things in APs come true, then 100 years passed (including more APs being failed by the heroes), and then the villains and/or their successors rediscovered how to get to Earth?

Scarab Sages

I love this thread!


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Just had another thought: What if all the bad things in APs come true, then 100 years passed (including more APs being failed by the heroes), and then the villains and/or their successors rediscovered how to get to Earth?

i Hated it when FR essentially did this i would probably hate it more if Paizo did it too, if thats possible:)


Wait, Forgotten Realms did this? Never heard of it -- tell me more.


its 4th edition forgotten realms, except maybe the earth part i guess:) also they were never big into doing adventures for FR


captain yesterday wrote:
its 4th edition forgotten realms, except maybe the earth part i guess:) also they were never big into doing adventures for FR

(Bolding mine) That explains why I never heard of it.

Also realized the way I wrote my last post, it looks like I never heard of Forgotten Realms. D'OH!


Off Topic 'Realms:
captain yesterday wrote:
its 4th edition forgotten realms, except maybe the earth part i guess:) also they were never big into doing adventures for FR

They did go to earth several times, or at least Elminster.


2.0 and later Realms is one giant smash event after the other. The Time of Troubles, the aquatic war around Waterdeep, the destruction of Thay, the elimination of Elistraee and the Seven, it goes on and on. Mystra dies AGAIN, Shar turns Sembia into New Netheril ruled over by the archiwizards of Shade, several of the outlying areas go poof, and the the Spellplague rearranges the planar realities and Aberil Toril into a new planet. Then the conjunction of both worlds starts to fail and magic changes yet again so we have 5th Ed.

Scarab Sages

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Ironically I'd rather like a world where the AP's didn't go horribly wrong to discover earth. It could make an interesting crossover and something I considered after RoW.

MINOR SPOILERS

Imagine 4 20ish level characters who've just finished that AP deciding to return to the weird world they encountered and wandering around 1919 Europe. Imagine the changes they could make to history.


So. All the bad things are happening... including a new Machine-God that is slowly and forceably converting people to its religion (having escaped into space just before the explosion)... gotta wonder how the Giant invasion will fit into a world where everything is going bad. Though the expanding winter and the growth of the Abyss on Golarion does give the giants reason to invade....


One problem I have with the analysis is the demons. Since basically all of them have greater teleport at will, they are mostly unstoppable and don't care about land routes at all?
Pretty much every castle falls immediately as demons boop in when things are sleeping and murder around

Scarab Sages

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CWheezy wrote:

One problem I have with the analysis is the demons. Since basically all of them have greater teleport at will, they are mostly unstoppable and don't care about land routes at all?

Pretty much every castle falls immediately as demons boop in when things are sleeping and murder around

Not really bear in mind this is a world that has grown up with teleport as a threat. I imagine most major strongholds would have some form of defense against it. Afterall Dresden held out till it was betrayed from within.


You would think that but it turns out that they totally to not. The only place i have seen protection is way of the wicked, drezen, and theward stones.


CWheezy wrote:

One problem I have with the analysis is the demons. Since basically all of them have greater teleport at will, they are mostly unstoppable and don't care about land routes at all?

Pretty much every castle falls immediately as demons boop in when things are sleeping and murder around

That also assumes the demons want a quick decisive victory. As per Wrath of the Righteous, they much prefer situations that allow them to slowly corrupt mortals or create situations that breed corruption. That way they can send more souls to the Abyss and also have more fun.


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Near as I can tell, deities have the power to return even outsiders to life, and can therefore bring back powerful angels/archons/etc who fall in battle if they so choose. It therefore follows that the simplest thing to do, in case of the Worldwound expanding, would be for good-aligned deities to simply tell all the angels in their service that they have unlimited get-out-of-nonexistence-free cards if they die fighting on Golarion. With death no longer being a prospect, they no longer have any reason to ask for payment when summoned to Golarion by planar ally spells, and can start flooding in via a loophole in the rules the various deities have agreed to abide by. Even the evil deities would have no reason to interfere, as Hell gains nothing if Golarion falls into the Abyss. Indeed, some of the evil deities might do the exact same thing, just to spite Deskari.

Also, regarding teleporting demons... you still have to know where you're teleporting to, and most have never been to Golarion before, or only know of a few places they were summoned to by powerful mages. They need to either get there the old-fashioned way first, or figure out how to scry ahead so they know where they're going.


Mac beat me to it on teleport.


Mackenzie Kavanaugh wrote:


Also, regarding teleporting demons... you still have to know where you're teleporting to, and most have never been to Golarion before, or only know of a few places they were summoned to by powerful mages. They need to either get there the old-fashioned way first, or figure out how to scry ahead so they know where they're going.

That is only kind of for greater teleport. No fail chance, and you only have to have the place described to you.


"If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location."

That requires a bit more than just asking some random bystander about Absalom. Also note that Sarkoris was a complete backwater, whose people probably couldn't give a reliable description of the next town over, let alone places beyond the borders of that country. The 'simple' thing to do would be for demons to capture crusaders and then torture them for information about that crusader's home until enough information was gleaned to teleport there... but that could take days or even weeks, and I imagine the Mendevian Crusade would catch on to that tactic really fast.


Mackenzie Kavanaugh wrote:
Near as I can tell, deities have the power to return even outsiders to life, and can therefore bring back powerful angels/archons/etc who fall in battle if they so choose. It therefore follows that the simplest thing to do, in case of the Worldwound expanding, would be for good-aligned deities to simply tell all the angels in their service that they have unlimited get-out-of-nonexistence-free cards if they die fighting on Golarion. {. . .}

This assumes that they don't run out of whatever they use to bring Outsiders back to life. Deities might be able to do all sorts of awesome things, but how long can they keep doing it without a break to recharge?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I wonder if Unity's brainwashing signal will put things in its favor...


dotting

Dark Archive

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this should get interesting in 2 or 3 years :P


ulgulanoth wrote:
this should get interesting in 2 or 3 years :P

Indeed. Cheliax has already been one of the big uncertainties of the thread, with lots of people unsure of exactly who or what would take charge of that region, and multiple plots and alliances forming there simultaneously.

Hell's Rebels is going to throw the place into even greater chaos.


Gluttony wrote:
ulgulanoth wrote:
this should get interesting in 2 or 3 years :P

Indeed. Cheliax has already been one of the big uncertainties of the thread, with lots of people unsure of exactly who or what would take charge of that region, and multiple plots and alliances forming there simultaneously.

Hell's Rebels is going to throw the place into even greater chaos.

Which will hopefully set the stage for things to come. A higher-level-ish "mega module" or the like. Or a *gasp* larger-page-count format module series. Heck 1, Heck 2, Heck 3 ... ;)


I think it would be really cool to start a high level module or a regular AP in this kind of universe.

A version of the "alternate reality episode" you see in sci-fi sometimes, where the PCs would be strangely aware that something was very wrong with the world they were in, and need to set it right.

That would be so cool -- but it violates so many of Paizo's (wise) practices around spoilers that alas, it could never be.


Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

I think it would be really cool to start a high level module or a regular AP in this kind of universe.

A version of the "alternate reality episode" you see in sci-fi sometimes, where the PCs would be strangely aware that something was very wrong with the world they were in, and need to set it right.

That would be so cool -- but it violates so many of Paizo's (wise) practices around spoilers that alas, it could never be.

Unless they stick a "WARNING: This AP spoils the plots of the following previous APs..." notice clearly-visible at the beginning of it.


magnuskn wrote:
All those scenarios assume that the gods of the setting will just go "Meh, divine rules prevent me from intervening. Too bad, worshippers!" on all of those catastrophes.

That's because:

A)So do AP writers.
B)Divine intervention in a setting where gods do not have any moral authority is just super-NPCs coming and fixing everything, an inherently uninteresting scenario.


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Alleran wrote:


- Xin (CR 21 + 20th level Universalist, definitely a couple of CR points, plus his vast clockwork legions)
- Karzoug (CR 21 Transmuter, commanding armies from the past and all the wealth of Xin-Shalast)
- Alderpash (CR 20 lich Evoker with knowledge of Jandelay and the Oliphaunt)
- Sorshen (CR 26 Enchanter 20 with 10 Trickster tiers; by far the most powerful of them and likely the one who'll end up ruling)
- Krune (CR 18 Conjurer; not the strongest at all, but has mastery of rune magic, links to Lissala, and as a conjurer will be able to whistle up extraplanar armies)
- Zutha (CR 20-21 lich Necromancer; possibly a buffer or control factor against Tar-Baphon, since the Tyrant learned most of what he knew from Thassilon, including Zutha's Cenotaph)
- Fafnheir (CR 24 Linnorm; if he hightails it south to work for Xin and Thassilon 2.0)
- Oliphaunt (CR 30; if they can work out how to summon it, but I like to think they can for the coolness factor; since working out the summoning involves mythic trials and gaining mythic tiers, a couple more people on this list would be mythic before it was over)

Adding to the above list we have Unity from Iron Gods, who would rocket into space and achieve godhood if PCs fail. CR can be deduced from James Jacob's post here

-Unity (CR 26; Orbiting Golarion and mindslaving people, probably also difficult to fight for creatures that require air)

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