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I'm going to agree with Armored saint on one point. Armor weights in this game are bad and need to be revisited quite badly across the board. Most light armors for instance will make a low strength character dangerously close to medium encumberance by themselves.
As far as his issues with the description though I have to place myself firmly on the don't care side. It's descriptive fluff easily changed and/or ignored.
- Torger
It's still pretty much it's own game. If all of the 3.5 sites were to disappear tomorrow, Pathfinder would still be operating quite nicely on it's own. In fact, it'd probably run smoother because we wouldn't be making as many mistakes assuming a 3.5ism that's no longer present in play.
I am not meaning the sites. I am meaning what it comes from, and what it has used. A lot of 3.5ism is still in play friend. The game system is clearly descended from 3.0 stock.
I'm going to agree with Armored saint on one point. Armor weights in this game are bad and need to be revisited quite badly across the board. Most light armors for instance will make a low strength character dangerously close to medium encumberance by themselves.
As far as his issues with the description though I have to place myself firmly on the don't care side. It's descriptive fluff easily changed and/or ignored.
- Torger
Yep, they could also break up, breastplate (light) and suit of light plate/plate armour (medium). Then there wouldn't be 30lbs breastplates, lol.
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Heh. Anyone wearing bracers must get special Amazonian training to fend off attacks---like Wonder Woman.
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My old SCA armor fit the general 3.5 Breastplate description quite closely: a leather (and heavy canvas) suit with metal at key points (head, elbows, feet, etc. It ran 25 lbs until I got newer (better) gauntlet and helmet. Yes, singular gauntlet, I was hard core sword-n-board. Counting the bag and two rolls of duct tape, Delta tagged it a 32 lbs.
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While the weight is clearly off, the new description seems to accurately describe pretty much every image in that link.This "single piece of sculpted metal" weighs a whopping 30 pounds? If so, that makes it heavier than darn near any breastplate ever manufactured in history.
http://www.allenantiques.com/Armour-Breastplates-Collection.html
See the above link for some actual weight figures for real "single piece" breastplates. Note that even the heaviest shot-proof breastplate doesn't even break the 20-pound barrier.
So the most realistic one weighs 20 pounds and only handles shot? How much thicker would it have to be to stop pistol bullets or musket rounds? I could see this almost doubling the weight (I'm pretty sure that is documented somewhere as part of the fall of armored knights when guns came onto the scene). How about Magic missals or if said pistol were a +2 pistol? Don't like guns? Then how about a Dragon tooth or wyvern stinger? Remember, we're not in medieval Europe, armorcraft evolved differently due to the inevitable environmental challenges.
EDIT:
The below quote seems to agree with my memory:
There was some effort to produce thicker armor to block bullets, but the armor simply became too heavy to wear effectively.
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The mechanics are laid out in the simplest form, and they still have to go back and do more explaining at times. It is just that the rules are so complex, that the inherently take up a lot of space.
The rules are laid out similarly to 3.5's PH in the interest of staying true to it. I've found that new players are often intimidated by the way the rules are presented or laid out compared to other systems they're coming from that are just as complex. That tells me space could have been saved that could be used to spice up the fluff in several areas. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
The rules are laid out similarly to 3.5's PH in the interest of staying true to it. I've found that new players are often intimidated by the way the rules are presented or laid out compared to other systems they're coming from that are just as complex. That tells me space could have been saved that could be used to spice up the fluff in several areas. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
The mechanics are laid out in the simplest form, and they still have to go back and do more explaining at times. It is just that the rules are so complex, that the inherently take up a lot of space.
You need to visit the rules sub-forum more often. They definitely need more more room to explain things.
EDIT:
The below quote seems to agree with my memory:There was some effort to produce thicker armor to block bullets, but the armor simply became too heavy to wear effectively.
Yes. As gunfire grew more dangerous armor needed to become heavier. The solution was to armor the vital torso more heavily and ditch the limb armor to make up for the weight. Thus you go from greaves and such to a single, heavier breastplate as technology evolves.
However, this was a development of the 17th through 20th century heavy cavalry armor. That's a lot later than most Pathfinder arms and armor date from.
However (again), I say "most." Pathfinder equipment has never been universally datable to a single time period. Stuff from many different levels of technology coexists in the game; Renaissance may be the average, but Renaissance arms and armor share space and compare in effectiveness with gear from antiquity, even, so if pistols are side by side with falcatas, it's nothing too strange to see Renaissance armor adjusted to reflect more Napoleonic considerations.
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D&D armor is heavier than it's historical counterparts because it is built thicker to stop certain highly common forms of fantastic attack.
Dragon Teeth
An Axe Swung by Orcish Hands
Any weapon used by Giants
Dire Animal/Dinosaur Claws
Kraken Tentacles
Marilith Knives
Succubus Lashes
yet despite being designed to hold up to all these fantastic forms of attack
it cannot hold up to the following things
Bullets
Alchemical Weaponry
Spells
Psionics
Well it could hold up to spells and psionics if those spells and/or psionic powers produce something that isn't a touch-attack. Not common at all I understand (and I'm sure you were talking more about how being completely covered in insulating armor offers no protection against things like fireball).
If my players were against any foe wearing just a breastplate, I'd allow them to make a called shot at -4, and entirely negate the ac of the armour (including if it is...
Police officers wear, essentially, a breastplate. Are they foolish?
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Well it could hold up to spells and psionics if those spells and/or psionic powers produce something that isn't a touch-attack. Not common at all I understand (and I'm sure you were talking more about how being completely covered in insulating armor offers no protection against things like fireball).
Right.
Bullets target touch AC too. but PF gun rules suck.
Ignore Armor
More likely to explode in your face than they are to crit
Great Weapon For Kamikaze Mooks if it weren't for the price
Exotic Weapon; just point and pull the trigger.
Difficult to reload
Lack of static bonuses
pretty much no worse than mooks who carpet bomb with alchemical splash weapons. slaughters anyone who lacks DR much like alchemical splash weapons slaughter anyone who lacks the appropriate ER or EI.
And riot helmets, and armour for the legs, feet, hands and arms (don't forget the groin) when things get really serious.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Minnesota-460f_7995 78c.jpg
Well it could hold up to spells and psionics if those spells and/or psionic powers produce something that isn't a touch-attack. Not common at all I understand (and I'm sure you were talking more about how being completely covered in insulating armor offers no protection against things like fireball).Right.
Bullets target touch AC too. but PF gun rules suck.
Ignore Armor
More likely to explode in your face than they are to crit
Great Weapon For Kamikaze Mooks if it weren't for the price
Exotic Weapon; just point and pull the trigger.
Difficult to reload
Lack of static bonusespretty much no worse than mooks who carpet bomb with alchemical splash weapons. slaughters anyone who lacks DR much like alchemical splash weapons slaughter anyone who lacks the appropriate ER or EI.
Yep, and you didn't need a breastplate to stop bullets, even heavy lamellar could save a lord (like Tokugawa who was shot multiple times), Lam being an armour designed to deflect arrows and thrusts, slows down the bullet enough that it gets stuck in the cloth and silk.
Then jump to fantasy and pf firearms go straight through +4 field plate or adamantine full plate. B$*&++!s I say.
Well it could hold up to spells and psionics if those spells and/or psionic powers produce something that isn't a touch-attack. Not common at all I understand (and I'm sure you were talking more about how being completely covered in insulating armor offers no protection against things like fireball).Right.
Bullets target touch AC too. but PF gun rules suck.
Ignore Armor
More likely to explode in your face than they are to crit
Great Weapon For Kamikaze Mooks if it weren't for the price
Exotic Weapon; just point and pull the trigger.
Difficult to reload
Lack of static bonusespretty much no worse than mooks who carpet bomb with alchemical splash weapons. slaughters anyone who lacks DR much like alchemical splash weapons slaughter anyone who lacks the appropriate ER or EI.
I'm pretty much in agreement on the gun thing. I actually like mooks + alchemical weapons (this is one of the biggest reasons I think a little energy resistance is a good investment). Fortunately potions/oils of resist energy are only 50 gp (thanks to Rangers for setting the bar lower for us :P).
Rangers: the potion business chronicles?
Rangers: the potion business chronicles?
Every ranger I make is an artisan of items. It's just darn effective. But even if it wasn't, the rules say that the magic item prices - regardless of creator - are based on the lowest caster level available. Rangers get resist energy as a 1st level spell at caster level 1. Thus the market price of a potion of resist energy is 50 gp.
Paladins also bless us with 50 gp potions of lesser restoration which can be used to restore 1d4 points of ability damage. Not exceptionally powerful, but you might appreciate such a potion when you've been bitten by a viper. :)
Rangers of my setting are monster hunters patrolling the vast forests and uncivilised lands far from civilisation; or a part of the most organised bands of evil killers in the world.
If you want to make yours... artisans of items, well... good luck with that. Isn't it a bit unheroic though?
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Rangers of my setting are monster hunters patrolling the vast forests and uncivilised lands far from civilisation; or a part of the most organised bands of evil killers in the world.
If you want to make yours... artisans of items, well... good luck with that. Isn't it a bit unheroic though?
Nope, its realistic, kinda like how this thread was asking for the breastplate to be more realistic. Most rangers/guides would also be making things out of the berries and roots they found in the wilderness while wandering/hunting. If you got poisioned by a bite, you better have a poultice made and ready to absorb the venom.... things like that
Rangers of my setting are monster hunters patrolling the vast forests and uncivilised lands far from civilisation; or a part of the most organised bands of evil killers in the world.
If you want to make yours... artisans of items, well... good luck with that. Isn't it a bit unheroic though?
Well they're spellcasters who can make a wide variety of tonics, potions, salves, or magical tools. I mean what ranger isn't going to want to craft an Elixir of Hiding for a particularly dangerous hunt? A flat +10 Stealth on top of the Ranger's already formidable stalking skills is a big benefit. Same with the Elixir that grants +10 to Perception (so the hunter does not become the hunted).
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Does it matter? It's a matter of fluff and aesthetics. Change it. In my games this
is just as much of a breastplate as this or this.
Notice the differences? One covers only the upper chest, and has grieves. One covers the front (only). One covers the entire upper body.
The difference is negligible from a mechanics standpoint.
Chief Technical Officer
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Is the text of the original 3.5 armor ogl? Or was it not included in the SRD, so paizo was required to write a new description?This is the entirety of the Open Content description of the breastplate from the 3.5 Players Handbook.
Breastplate
It comes with a helmet and greaves.
Yes—that's the text we had to start from, not what's in the Player's Handbook.
I actually have a vague recollection of dealing with this. It's been five years, and we're talking about literally one sentence in a 575-page book, so my recollection may be inaccurate... but it mostly had to do with making sure the text matched the illustration.
When you commission new art, it's (theoretically) easy—you give the artist the text that you wish to have illustrated, and they match it. (In practice, you find that you often need to adjust the text after the illustration comes in anyway.) But in the case of most of the equipment and magic items, we were reusing the art from our GameMastery Item Cards, so at some point, we had to compare the text to the illustrations we had, and the illustration we had for a breastplate was just that: a breastplate that covers the front of the torso.
We also figured that nobody *expected* a breastplate to come with a helmet and greaves—which was supported by the fact that pretty much everyone we asked was surprised that it was *supposed* to—so we just dropped that part.
To the OP: Might have been changed to allow for use of the Armored Kilt.