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Paladin / Anti-Paladin = Fighter, Except Better? (Why play a Fighter then?)


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Star Voter 2013

Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
Uh, neither of them. They'd both get thrown a rope and climb back out.
Maybe you miss the running part of running waters.
Both die, statistically. The Paladin has a 50% chance to avoid going under with a DC 15 Strength check (not hindered by armor) or a 55% DC 15 Swim check (hindered by armor). If pulled under the character suffers 1d3 nonlethal damage per round. If the water would move the characters (such as by 15 ft. or better per round) then both Fighters and Paladins are dead in such a situation because they can't swim faster than 10 ft. regardless. with a successful swim check and a full-round action.

fighter statistically going underwater is much more improbable, 35 % more improbable.

EDIT: due to armor trainig fighter maximun movement is 15 ft with a full round action, figther wins this time :)

Star Voter 2013

@ Ashiel

This mental excercise is very fun we should do itin its wond thread, with a wider range of levels.

The Exchange Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

This is turning into a "my magic based character is a special snowflake who farts rainbows and walks above the ground" vs "my non magical snowflake walks through your gas and the muck on the ground with no problems why did you wast magic on something you could deal with without it, oh you super specialized and cant function without it" argument.

Liberty's Edge

shallowsoul wrote:


You do realize that there are Fighter only feats don't you?

They are. A mistake on my part. Been a long week.

shallowsoul wrote:


Also, once again you completely miss the mark. Show me another class that gets the same amount of feats as a fighter. You claim that other get feats but you can't acknowledge the fact that other classes do not get so large an amount. No other class can build combos using feat chains like a fighter.

I think your completely missing the mark. i know that a fighter gets a lot more feats. I never questioned that. Beyond a few fighter only feats everyone gets feats. It's nothing unique. Show me something else besides more feats that make a fighter unique. More feats. Some armor training that if your using 3.5 material other classes can get. Weapon speicliziation that gives a few more points in damage. Bravery which is not that useful until high level. I get I more than get it. They get more feats. Please do not repeat it a fourth or fifth time. Show me something that is unique to the fighter that is not replicated in any other melee class. Everything a fighter can do other melee classes can do just less effective. Yet it can be done. A fighter can't get any ranger abilites unless he multiclasse. A ranger with the right feats and attributes still can damage a target. Less than a pure fighter yet a Ranger can still do it.


Challenge Accepted: Fighter vs Desert Crypt

The fighters scores are similar to the Paladin, but with no need for charisma, he leaves it at 10, and buys up Dex and Con. Scores are 16, 15, 14, 7, 13, 10 and at 8th level he raises str to 18
Presuming similar gear to the pally, save that he favors a morning star for main weapon, a Battleaxe as backup, and got a +1 ghost-touch net after reading Ashiel's adventure guide. He also packs some splash weapons: holy water and alchemist's fire
He ditches the headband of charisma, pearls of power, and armored kilt to pay for the net. The rest is about even.
(the numbers may be off, but the idea is there.)
Feats: (in no particular order) Power Attack, EWP Net, Two-Weapon Fighting, improved shield bash, net adept, Weapon focus(morning star), Iron Will, Weapon Specialization (morning star), Improved Initiative, Double slice
So our adventure is laid out like this:
Introduction: Unlike Ashiel, I did not take Ability Focus (Wall of Text) so my adventure notes will be sparse.
Part 1: ECL 4 The Pit trap with Gelatinous cube
The Fighter and Paladin have about even odds for falling in the pit. Once there, the Fighter could also fight it out with his flail, but unlike the Paladin he has Armor training and no need to sink ranks into Spellcraft (Ashiel took a crafting feat) or K(Arcana) for his career choice. His climb check is much higher. He has an easy time scampering out of the pit.
Part 2: ECL 9 Hydra zombies
No change, everyone quaffs their potion of Hide from undead and slips by
Part 3: ECL 9 Mummies in a wall
This is a dark day for our fighter friend, even with a good fort save, mummy rot is brutal. But he has good scores and a good AC. He can entangle with the net, use alchemist fire and holy water, bash away with his weapons, or any combination of the above. A flubbed save is likely even with careful tactics, so the cleric may have to break out healing resources. Or the fighter reaches for potions. This is probably the toughest fight of the dungeon for the fighter save the Big Bad
Part 4: ECL 7 The Basilisks
Lower fort saves but just as important. By dual wielding shield bashes and flail, and with hefty bonuses to damage, Fighter tears through the basilisks before anyone has to face too many saves.
Part 5: ECL 8 Greater Shadow
This one is tough, but out comes the ghost-touch net and holy water. Cleric may burn some buffs and lesser restorations, but the fighter should be a credible threat on his own, and be able to protect the rest of the team from taking hits, this will help the action economy as they can focus on taking down the shadow.
Part 7: ECL 11 The Big Bad Mummy
Well, we made it, and the fighter might not be in the best of shape, unless he got lucky at the mummy wall. But through his sacrifice, the rest of the party should have most of their big stuff still in reserve. Otherwise he can fight all day and probably cost the party no more than some lesser restorations and cure spells over the Paladin. Iron will should keep him from being a spell sponge, but his main contribution was getting the rest of the party here with most of their resources intact. Time to hit the boss hard, and pray to the dice gods. Once more into the Breach, dear friends.
Few exact figures here, but I hope I've hit the main differences. The fighter has to be more careful in gear, but he was able to go deeper down obscure or multiple feat paths. In this case, Nets, TWF and shield bash. But he could still keep up his damage potential (Weapon focus, spec., and training). The fighter works best with a team, as he can't really be his own support crew like a paladin can.

Liberty's Edge

johnlocke90 wrote:
Paladin could still heal(himself and others) actually.

Nope. Failed his save vs. poison and was confused, plus was also nauseated from their screeching attack. Managed to have a round or two of lay on hands, but it did nothing for the STR damage and he couldn't outrun the little blighters like the ranger and fighter could.

Needless to say, we all sucked equally at taking them down.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So what spell is producing the wall the mummies were hiding behind anyway? illusory wall only allows the caster to see through it even if disbelieved.


memorax wrote:
Some armor training that if your using 3.5 material other classes can get.

Is that the sound of moving goalposts I hear?

memorax wrote:
Everything a fighter can do other melee classes can do just less effective. Yet it can be done.

Sure, anyone else can pick up a whip, fighters just do it better. Sort of like how anyone else can get really angry, barbarians just do it better.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Clerics suck because they don't get anything unique. 9-level divine spellcasting from that spell list? Oracles get that. Spontaneous cure spells? Oracles get that. Domains? Inquisitors and Druids get those. Channel Energy? Life Oracles and Paladins have that. Clerics get nothing unique and have no reason to exist. Show me something unique that is not replicated in any other divine class.


Because they get all of that without penalties, they're also prepared divine spellcasters, and if I recall correctly their spell list is one of the best in the game.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

They have the penalty of only d8 hit die, only 3/4 BAB, and needing to remain within certain alignments or lose all powers forever (unlike, say, Oracles). Being a divine prepared caster isn't unique because Paladins, Rangers, and Druids are also divine prepared casters, and Oracles can function as one via Paragon Surge. They share their spell list with Oracles (and any other divine caster can leech from it with Samsaran Mystic Past Life) so there's nothing unique there either.

All Clerics really get is spells. Yawn. 2/3 of the classes in the game get spells. There's nothing special or unique about them. Anything a cleric can do, another class can do. Especially if you allow 3.5 splatbooks.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Roberta Yang wrote:

They have the penalty of only d8 hit die, only 3/4 BAB, and needing to remain within certain alignments or lose all powers forever (unlike, say, Oracles). Being a divine prepared caster isn't unique because Paladins, Rangers, and Druids are also divine prepared casters, and Oracles can function as one via Paragon Surge. They share their spell list with Oracles (and any other divine caster can leech from it with Samsaran Mystic Past Life) so there's nothing unique there either.

All Clerics really get is spells. Yawn. 2/3 of the classes in the game get spells. There's nothing special or unique about them. Anything a cleric can do, another class can do. Especially if you allow 3.5 splatbooks.

Don't be facetious. They get Channel Energy and domain powers. Other classes moved in to leech off their cool stuff, but they're still as much "cleric" features as Sneak Attack and Rogue Talents are rogue features.


Paladins Life Oracles get Channel Energy as well, and using Channel Energy to heal is pretty much like using a wand of Cure Light Wounds, which anyone can do. Life Oracles actually channel better than Clerics do because they're Cha-based! And Domain powers are weak, like Armor Training or Bravery - pretty much anything else you care to name (Revelations, Paladin saves, etc) are better. And Druids and Inquisitors get Domains too.

There is nothing unique about Clerics.

Aratrok wrote:
Other classes moved in to leech off their cool stuff,

But is this not also true of the Fighting-Man, undisputed master of combat before Rangers, Barbarians, and Paladins were added to the game?


Roberta Yang wrote:

Paladins Life Oracles get Channel Energy as well, and using Channel Energy to heal is pretty much like using a wand of Cure Light Wounds, which anyone can do. Life Oracles actually channel better than Clerics do because they're Cha-based! And Domain powers are weak, like Armor Training or Bravery - pretty much anything else you care to name (Revelations, Paladin saves, etc) are better. And Druids and Inquisitors get Domains too.

There is nothing unique about Clerics.

Aratrok wrote:
Other classes moved in to leech off their cool stuff,
But is this not also true of the Fighting-Man, undisputed master of combat before Rangers, Barbarians, and Paladins were added to the game?

I will completely agree that clerics are outclassed as a attack/healing hybrid. If you want healing and damage, druids are better(The level 13 druid in my party hits for about 100 damage a round on his bite while still having good heals).

Oracles suffer from lack of spell versatility due to spontaneous casting, which is a big weakness when it comes to being a focused buffer and healer.

Clerics have a good niche in having a wide variety of buffs that they can prepare. With advanced knowledge, a cleric is better off than an oracle in that he can grab all those situational buff spells.


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So the cleric's only advantage over the oracle is knowing more spells? That seems to imply that having things other classes have, but more, counts as an actual positive feature.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Roberta Yang wrote:
So the cleric's only advantage over the oracle is knowing more spells? That seems to imply that having things other classes have, but more, counts as an actual positive feature.

Um, yes. Being better at something is the focus of virtually all class features.

Are you trying to make a point about having good offense and lots of feats being a good thing? Because no one is arguing with you about that. The problem with fighters isn't their damage, it's their abysmal defenses. It doesn't matter how much damage you can do on a good day if you're blind, entangled, running away in panic, laying on the ground or paralyzed, much less if you're dead.


Aratrok wrote:
Are you trying to make a point about having good offense and lots of feats being a good thing? Because no one is arguing with you about that.

Actually, quite a few posters, like memorax, have argued that fighters suck because everyone gets feats so getting extra feats doesn't really count so they can't do anything unique and fundamentally don't deserve to exist as a class.


Roberta Yang wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
Are you trying to make a point about having good offense and lots of feats being a good thing? Because no one is arguing with you about that.
Actually, quite a few posters, like memorax, have argued that fighters suck because everyone gets feats so getting extra feats doesn't really count so they can't do anything unique and fundamentally don't deserve to exist as a class.

And thats a bad argument. A better way to phrase it is to say that feats have diminishing returns.

Excluding prereqs, people pick feats from best to worse, which means that fighters end up seeing less power growth as they reach higher level. To make this worse, many of the best feats require high ability scores.

By contrast a cleric will get access to consistently better spells as she levels.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Roberta Yang wrote:
Actually, quite a few posters, like memorax, have argued that fighters suck because everyone gets feats so getting extra feats doesn't really count so they can't do anything unique and fundamentally don't deserve to exist as a class.

You're exaggerating. Memorax's point is that you can't prop a character up on only feats. Yes, more feats is a good thing. No, more feats are not going to keep you competitive. There's only so much you can do defensively with bonus feats, and it's not enough to make up for the lack of defensive class features.

I would trade the fighter's bonus feats for Divine Grace in a heartbeat; the other defensive boons a paladin gets are only icing on the cake.


Brambleman wrote:
Challenge Accepted: Fighter vs Desert Crypt

Thank you Brambleman! I was hoping someone would step up to the plate, and it seems you have delivered. You summary is pretty well laid out, and though you didn't provide statical %s, I can figure those out based on your scores (and I wanna thank you for making your post easy to read) and your explanations. I also want to say thank you for not whining and complaining about encounters even when you can go look up their CRs and see they're correct. It makes your position seem way more credible to me since you're not trying to complain about technicalities (which are technically correct) and just doing it like the Paladin did. You also did it with the same rules as the Paladin (not trying to slap traits onto the build without asking, etc).

Part 1: Looks good to me.
Part 2: Ditto.
Part 3: Looks good here, and I appreciate that you don't claim to steamroll this encounter. Based on your feats and gear I see your Will save should be (2 + 1 + 3 + 2 +2) +10 vs Fear. I'm still a little concerned that there's a about a 25% chance per mummy that you end up as Coup-fodder, but honestly I can't complain here because it looks good and "Immunity to Fear" is by no means a requirement for a competent martial (merely a very nice perk).
Part 4: The Basilisk encounter looks pretty good too. By my figures you should have a 70% chance per basilisk of successfully saving (so a pair of 30% biff-windows). It's a scary encounter, but it seems like you could make it through, and hopefully with few enough PCs petrified that you can cure them with the basilisk blood after the fight.
Part 5: This is pretty much exactly why I think ghost-touch nets are awesome. Definitely weakens this encounter in your favor. I like that you acknowledge that there will still need to be some buffing/healing, but with the net you won't really need to worry about your Strength score (1 Str vs no Str = 1 wins. :P) for now. Seems pretty good now, and your party might be packing potions for ability damage (at 50 gp / pop it's not super bad).
Part 6: I apparently put this as part 7 (I think it's because I did the adventure in sections and had to get up for a very long time and apparently biffed here) but no matter. As I mentioned with Nicos' fighter, I'm a little concerned here as to how things will go vs some of the Mummy's spells, but it looks as though your tactics don't really involve the Fighter actually needing to participate (so much as have carried the rest of the party here with as many resources and daily spells intact as possible) and I think that is a reasonable strategy (this was much the Paladin's strategy as well, since the Paladin basically does his best to conserve the amount of spells the party has to exert).

All in all, good job. I knew it could be done (because it's not biased against Fighters at all). If you would, I'd like to ask you for a bit of commentary in a Q&A style format.

Q: Where do you feel the Fighter outshines the Paladin in this adventure?

Q: Where do you feel the Paladin outshines the Fighter in this adventure?

Q: What encounter would you be most worried about if you were playing in an actual game with your Fighter? (With my sample Paladin, I'd probably say my biggest concern was the Basilisks, because even at a 90% chance to succeed, that's still two 1/10 chances of getting turned into a lawn ornament per round.)

Q: If you could make one adjustment to the Fighter (pretty much anything) what would be? (I would probably like the option to trade Smite Enemy for Smite and get a 1/2-power Smite usable on any alignment which would reduce effectiveness vs evil but really help out vs Gazebos).

Q: Just because I'm curious, what did you like and dislike about this dungeon?

Q: If you were building a party, what would your ideal party of 2, 4, and 6 be? (My ideal 2-man would probably be a Paladin or Ranger and Wizard. My ideal 4 man would be a Paladin or Ranger, Bard, Cleric or Druid, Wizard. My ideal 6 man would be Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Bard, Cleric, Wizard. At the moment at least.)

Q: If you were going to build a party of a single class (say like the single class challenges in Final Fantasy games), what class would you choose? (I'm kind of up in the air about it, but I think 4 Rangers would be cool, I know 4 clerics is quite good, 4 druids would be amusing, 4 Bards would be very-doable, and 4 Fighters could be fun just by sheer dakka if they were all ranged specialists).

Thanks for participating and being a good sport. :)

redliska wrote:
So what spell is producing the wall the mummies were hiding behind anyway? illusory wall only allows the caster to see through it even if disbelieved.
You get a save for interacting with it. Unless you interact with it, you cannot detect it as an illusion. The mummies have already interacted with it and can now see through it, and since they can see the party coming into the "dead end" they gnab a surprise-round charge.
Nicos wrote:

1)Fast Zombie (CR +0)

Source Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 1

Unlike the standard, plodding zombie, a fast zombie moves with a supernatural quickness.

So, it is more that CR 7.

Geeze. If you're going to harp on this at least have the decency to check your facts first.

Zombie. Notice that a 20 HD zombie is CR 7. Now allow me to quote the part about fast zombies so that there is no mistake here.

PRD-Zombie Variants wrote:
The typical zombie is a slow-moving abomination that is tough to destroy. Yet this tough zombie is not the only type of zombie to plague crypts or stalk graveyards. Each of the following two variant zombies modifies the base zombie in a few simple ways.

Less "QQ" more "Pew Pew" perhaps? Seriously, the party overcomes this encounter with a 1st level spell (or a 50 gp potion / party member). If they have an arcane caster with so much as a scroll of a 2nd level command undead then they actually get control of the undead for a minimum of 3 days, and can use the zombies against the other dangers in the dungeon (at the very least as big zombies they are immune to the basilisk gaze attacks, the mummy's rot, the mummy's fear, and the shadow's shadow damage {greater magic fang would allow them to hit the shadow}, and are immune to many of the bad things that the big bad uses as well.


If you actually read memorax's posts you'll see his complaint is about uniqueness, not effectiveness. Like, seriously, read it:

memorax wrote:
I think your completely missing the mark. i know that a fighter gets a lot more feats. I never questioned that. Beyond a few fighter only feats everyone gets feats. It's nothing unique. Show me something else besides more feats that make a fighter unique. More feats. Some armor training that if your using 3.5 material other classes can get. Weapon speicliziation that gives a few more points in damage. Bravery which is not that useful until high level. I get I more than get it. They get more feats. Please do not repeat it a fourth or fifth time. Show me something that is unique to the fighter that is not replicated in any other melee class. Everything a fighter can do other melee classes can do just less effective. Yet it can be done. A fighter can't get any ranger abilites unless he multiclasse. A ranger with the right feats and attributes still can damage a target. Less than a pure fighter yet a Ranger can still do it.

The complaint isn't about feats having diminishing returns or not being effective or anything of that sort, it's about not being unique. That's why features like Weapon Training are discarded out of hand on the grounds that everyone has numbers.


Roberta Yang wrote:

If you actually read memorax's posts you'll see his complaint is about uniqueness, not effectiveness. Like, seriously, read it:

memorax wrote:
I think your completely missing the mark. i know that a fighter gets a lot more feats. I never questioned that. Beyond a few fighter only feats everyone gets feats. It's nothing unique. Show me something else besides more feats that make a fighter unique. More feats. Some armor training that if your using 3.5 material other classes can get. Weapon speicliziation that gives a few more points in damage. Bravery which is not that useful until high level. I get I more than get it. They get more feats. Please do not repeat it a fourth or fifth time. Show me something that is unique to the fighter that is not replicated in any other melee class. Everything a fighter can do other melee classes can do just less effective. Yet it can be done. A fighter can't get any ranger abilites unless he multiclasse. A ranger with the right feats and attributes still can damage a target. Less than a pure fighter yet a Ranger can still do it.
The complaint isn't about feats having diminishing returns or not being effective or anything of that sort, it's about not being unique. That's why features like Weapon Training are discarded out of hand on the grounds that everyone has numbers.

I agree with you Roberta. Uniqueness has little to do with it. The expert has a very unique class feature (the ability to choose all his/her class skills), but he's still just an NPC class. The wizard shares the same spell list as the sorcerer and lacks bloodlines, and still is amazing. The monk is just loaded with fairly unique features and you know the rest.

I'm more of a quality over quantity sort myself. :P

Liberty's Edge

Roberta Yang wrote:


Is that the sound of moving goalposts I hear?

How is that moving goalposts. PF is compaitble with 3.5. Many people use 3.5 material in their games. Here is the link of heavy armor optimization feat from the D&D wiki. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Heavy_Armor_Optimization(3.5e_Feat) It classified both as general and fighter fighter. Easy requirements to take.

And kind of what armor training does for the fighter anyway/

Roberta Yang wrote:


Sure, anyone else can pick up a whip, fighters just do it better. Sort of like how anyone else can get really angry, barbarians just do it better.

Your kind of proving my point. Yes a fighter can hit with a whip better and do more damage. They can't rage unless they multicalss. A barbarain not only can rage he can also use the whip and hit a little less often and does less damage. Still not showing me what make a fighter better over other melee classes. I do concede the fighter has some unique abilites. In terms of weapon specialization and Bravery. But more feats and the ability to hit things. Other classes can do the same and still have access top some of the same feats.

Liberty's Edge

Aratrok wrote:


You're exaggerating. Memorax's point is that you can't prop a character up on only feats. Yes, more feats is a good thing. No, more feats are not going to keep you competitive. There's only so much you can do defensively with bonus feats, and it's not enough to make up for the lack of defensive class features.

Pretty much this. Feats are not a replacement imo for a lack of defensive features. They don't get better over time. Some are a feat tax. Some don't mesh well. Some have attribute requirments. I would love to see feats scale for fighters over time.

Aratrok wrote:


I would trade the fighter's bonus feats for Divine Grace in a heartbeat; the other defensive boons a paladin gets are only icing on the cake.

Seconded. I would love to see a fighter class that over time and levels gets better at fighting without feats. Level XYZ they do more damage against flying creatures. Or get a bonus to save vs Dragons breath. To tkae into account all the experience gained as a frontline fighter.


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Ashiel wrote:
Q: Where do you feel the Fighter outshines the Paladin in this adventure?

Skill checks oddly enough. The Paladin needed to have ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (What manner of Evil is this?), but the Fighter can have more ranks, and be competent at things hindered by armor checks, like climb, swim, ride, and even Acrobatics.

Ashiel wrote:
Q: Where do you feel the Paladin outshines the Fighter in this adventure?

Saveing vs status. Paladin easily squashes saves and status effects turning a dangerous encounter like mummys into something trivial. It's a bit more even on ability damage, but

Ashiel wrote:
Q: What encounter would you be most worried about if you were playing in an actual game with your Fighter? (With my sample Paladin, I'd probably say my biggest concern was the Basilisks, because even at a 90% chance to succeed, that's still two 1/10 chances of getting turned into a lawn ornament per round.)

Definitely most worried about the mummies, in fact with a slightly adjusted gear set, The fighter could make a good go vs the Hydras with thrown axes and chakrams. But the mummies are ambushing with save-or-sucks, and there are to many for one fighter to lock down with maneuvers or crowd control. The basalisks are less worisome, as i would be reasonably sure to bash one before getting stoned, or could just fight blind and eat the penalties, letting my armor soak the regular attacks. The Big Bad is scary, but we can all gang up on it, no holds barred. The action economy would be better, and It's expected to have bosses be tough. Im just glad you didn't use the Dread Mummy template

Ashiel wrote:
Q: If you could make one adjustment to the Fighter (pretty much anything) what would be? (I would probably like the option to trade Smite Enemy for Smite and get a 1/2-power Smite usable on any alignment which would reduce effectiveness vs evil but really help out vs Gazebos).

Fighter needs more defenses to his repertoire. Id give him a class feature to postpone or ignore certain status ailments and ability damage. "Grim Determination," "Adrenaline Surge" or the like. It could be as simple as a fighter only feat. Right now, the best thing to do is choose a simple combat style, and sink your normal ranks into some defensive feats like iron will that improve saves.

Ashiel wrote:
Q: Just because I'm curious, what did you like and dislike about this dungeon?

I like the themeing, and the wide range of encounters that seemed plausible. The spread of CRs was good too. It Needed more oppertunity to use skills, besides the pit trap. Also, some social interaction at the town to highlight another difference between Paladins and Fighters, Alignment and social skills. Im intending to make my own test scenario if I can get some time, stay tuned.

Ashiel wrote:
Q: If you were building a party, what would your ideal party of 2, 4, and 6 be? (My ideal 2-man would probably be a Paladin or Ranger and Wizard. My ideal 4 man would be a Paladin or Ranger, Bard, Cleric or Druid, Wizard. My ideal 6 man would be Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Bard, Cleric, Wizard. At the moment at least.)

Lets see...

2-man, probably Ranger-Cleric
4-Man: Ranger, Cleric, Alchemist, Bard/Wizard
6-Man: Alchemist, Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Wizard, Bard

But the only real stand out is Clerics, who add more resiliency to the party than anybody. Having all status removers is big. I generally will run with any party composition, and let the bodies fall as they will.

Ashiel wrote:
Q: If you were going to build a party of a single class (say like the single class challenges in Final Fantasy games), what class would you choose? (I'm kind of up in the air about it, but I think 4 Rangers would be cool, I know 4 clerics is quite good, 4 druids would be amusing, 4 Bards would be very-doable, and 4 Fighters could be fun just by sheer dakka if they were all ranged specialists).

Rangers. I really like rangers, and they can cover alot of bases even solo. A party would be awesome, especially if they all get stealth ranks. Second Choice: Alchemist for similar reasons, go team Nuke'Em.

Silver Crusade

Running an encounter is nice but it still doesn't prove anything except the fact that the PaladinwPaladin was more suited for certain aspects of this encounter. All classes have moments where they don't do as great and I'm glad for this. I don't want to be ideal in every situation.


Lets try my Senario, "Terror in the Sodden Lands!" for 8th level Characters: Im just posting the scenario now, in the hopes that someone will step up.

Part 1: The Town ECL: Unknown In a Tavern, our heroes gather for an important mission: Find the lost nobleman who got himself lost in the Sodden Lands, claim the reward his wealthy and bereaved family has offered for his return. An unscrupulous low-life offers to sell a map of the swamps that details the nobles planned route, but the price is ludicrously expensive, and would cost the entirety of the Parties expense budget. But he might be persuaded to let it go at half price. (Diplomacy DC:25)

Part 2: The Natives ECL: 9 Our heroes charter a shallow draft skiff to take them to the last known location of the lost noble. But then suddenly, angry (and very Neutral) lizardmen advanced lizardman warrior 2, 4 of them at CR:3 each Hp 32 (2d8+2d10+14); AC 19 (touch 12); trident +7 (1d8+3), claw +4 (1d4+1), bite +4 (1d4+1), 30 ft. speed and 15 ft. swim speed. are attacking led by an advanced lizardman druid 6th level, CR:7 and his Crocodile Animal companion (included as class feature of druid). Angry at the encroachment of outsiders, they attempt to kill every last interloper on their territory. The Druid opens the surprise round by casting Warp wood to sink the boat, and now the entire party is in the water.

Part 3: The Trek ECL 4 With the boat sunk, the group has no choice but to continue on foot through the swamp. During the trek, the party's path leads directly over a patch of Quicksand! Plus, everyone rolls DC:16 fort save vs catching Boot Soup from the fetid water they march through.

Part 4: Strange Beings ECL 6 On reaching Dry land, the heroes encounter a tribe of four Nilbogs Nilbog Warrior 4 of them at CR:3 each Hp 30 (4d10+8); AC 17 (touch 13); battleaxe +4 (1d6+2), or javalin +5 (1d4+1) 30 ft. speed, Damage reversal, Aura of Confusion DC:12 lurking on the shore, they jabber madly and attacks anyone who tries to come to land. This is specifically to test how character can deal with threats besides “I hit it with my weapon!”

Part 5: The Camp ECL: 8 At the ruins of the Noble's camp, they find a Marsh Giant picking over the remains. Notes in the remains of the log indicate that the Man was studying bizarre flying creatures at a site to the north.

Part 6: The bridge ECL: 8 The way ahead is barred by a wide, fast moving river. The river is crossed by a narrow rope bridge, watched over by a hungry flock of 4 harpies.

Part 7: The Nest ECL:11 The Noble is finally located, captured a nest of Host Devils in the branches of a gigantic tree, about to be devoured! The flock consists of an Advanced Magaav (CR:7), his consort, a fiendish Harpy (CR:6), and 12 Gaavs (CR 3 each).

Star Voter 2013

This escenarios should have the other 3 pregenereted (or at lest described) member of the party, to avoid sccrodinger-like behaviours.


Nicos wrote:
This escenarios should have the other 3 pregenereted (or at lest described) member of the party, to avoid sccrodinger-like behaviours.

Why not simply use the builds used in the previous scenarios?

Star Voter 2013

Lemmy wrote:
Nicos wrote:
This escenarios should have the other 3 pregenereted (or at lest described) member of the party, to avoid sccrodinger-like behaviours.
Why not simply use the builds used in the previous scenarios?

I still think this game should have it onw thread with more precise rules.

But I meaned that I would like to not see things like "that problem do not matter, because the cleric in the party cast X spell on me ". I am not talking about the pally or the fighty but their companions.

Star Voter 2013

Brambleman wrote:

Part 1: The Town ECL: Unknown In a Tavern, our heroes gather for an important mission: Find the lost nobleman who got himself lost in the Sodden Lands, claim the reward his wealthy and bereaved family has offered for his return. An unscrupulous low-life offers to sell a map of the swamps that details the nobles planned route, but the price is ludicrously expensive, and would cost the entirety of the Parties expense budget. But he might be persuaded to let it go at half price. (Diplomacy DC:25)

Part 2: The Natives ECL: 9 Our heroes charter a shallow draft skiff to take them to the last known location of the lost noble. But then suddenly, angry (and very Neutral) lizardmen advanced lizardman warrior 2, 4 of them at CR:3 each Hp 32 (2d8+2d10+14); AC 19 (touch 12); trident +7 (1d8+3), claw +4 (1d4+1), bite +4 (1d4+1), 30 ft. speed and 15 ft. swim speed. are attacking led by an advanced lizardman druid 6th level, CR:7 and his Crocodile Animal companion (included as class feature of druid). Angry at the encroachment of outsiders, they attempt to kill every last interloper on their territory. The Druid opens the surprise round by casting Warp wood to sink the boat, and now the entire party is in the water.

Part 3: The Trek ECL 4 With the boat sunk, the group has no choice but to continue on foot through the swamp. During the trek, the party's path leads directly over a patch of Quicksand! Plus, everyone rolls DC:16 fort save vs catching Boot Soup from the fetid water they march through.

Part 4: Strange Beings ECL 6 On reaching Dry land, the heroes encounter a tribe of four Nilbogs Nilbog Warrior 4 of them at CR:3 each Hp 30 (4d10+8); AC 17 (touch 13); battleaxe +4 (1d6+2), or javalin +5 (1d4+1) 30 ft. speed, Damage reversal, Aura of Confusion DC:12 lurking on the shore, they jabbers madly and attacks anyone who tries to come to land. This is specifically to test how character can deal with threats besides “I hit it with my weapon!”

Part 5: The Camp ECL: 8 At the ruins of the Noble's camp, they find a Marsh Giant picking over the remains. Notes in the remains of the log indicate that the Man was studying bizarre flying creatures at a site to the north.

Part 6: The bridge ECL: 8 The way ahead is barred by a wide, fast moving river. The river is crossed by a narrow rope bridge, watched over by a hungry flock of 4 harpies.

Part 7: The Nest ECL:11-12 The Noble is finally located, captured a nest of Host Devils in the branches of a gigantic tree, about to be devoured! The flock consists of an Advanced Magaav (CR:7), his consort, a fiendish Harpy (CR:7), and 12 Gaavs (CR 3 each).

I will use my last fighter.

Spoiler:

18, 14, 13, 12, 14, 7
Traits: +1 to will, +1 to reflex
Feats: Power attack, Furious focus, WF (falchion), WS (falchion), Improved crit, Iron will, lighting reflexes, GWF, Lunge,

Saves:

Fort +10; Ref +10; Will +10

Hp: 65; AC: 20; DR 3/-
Attack falchion: +16/+8 1d8+20 15-20/x2

Items: +3 cloak of resistance, +1 falchion, Adamantine fullplate, +2 ring of resistance, Potions of cure light wounds, Composite longbow, a couple of wands and potions.

Skills : perception +10 (8 ranks), Climb +8 (4 ranks), Swim +8 (4 ranks), Acrobatics +7 (8 ranks)

PART 1: My fighter have nothing to do from the mechanics standpoint, maybe with good roleplay the DM would reduce the DC of the check but that is to Dm dependet to be taken into account.

PART 2: Depending how deep is the water my fighter walks or swim looking for the Druid or the crocodile (but if he can attack those lizarmen in the process he would do it gladly). With DR 3/- he have not much to be afraid with the attacks from the normal lizardmen.

The exact tactic depends of the initial position of the lizarmen, if the fighter have the chance he would go for the crocodile or the druid if not, he would try to kill the minions quickly.

Note that with Lunge I am ablet to attack eraly that other character that do not have reach in this dificult terrain.

PART 3: The hazard do not have listed any DC to notice it beforehand, nor DC to avoid falling in it. The fighter do not have any special method to deal with this encounter.
If the fighter do not get traped he would help his frieds with a rope. f the party get trapped then he would need help (unless he carry a grappling hook)

PART 4: This is very tricky. At the begining the fighter will try to hack and slash. But afther noticing that do not work he would try to trip and disarm them using lunge to avoid the AoO (CMB for trip = +17).

PART 5: Hack and slash. Better with good buff rom the party. A spellcaster (like a witch) would do better in this encounter. If the monster do not get deffubed quickly the encounter could be very dangerous.

PART 6: This could become the most dangerous encounter so far. If the party spot the harpies first the fighter would try to use somo cloths to seal his ears. If that work the ecounter becomes trivial, if not he would need protection from evil (at this point a wand to protection from evil could be very handy).

PART 7: If he do not have it already the next time the fighter will buy a wand of protection from evil.

The best thing to do form the party perspective is a large BFC spell or a mass debuf (like slow).

There will be a lot of fort saves in this fight even with a good fort save the fighter (an anyone not inmune to pisons) will, sooner or later, fail it saves. So it is in the best interest for the party to end the fight quickly.

At this point my fighter would like to have cleave or whirlwind attack.

So, I think the tactic would be wait from the spellcaster in the grop to cast a potent spell and then try to carge the magaav hoping that the DR would buy him sometime while the rest of the party cast more spells.


Brambleman wrote:
The Paladin needed to have ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (What manner of Evil is this?)

I just dipped some skills not for optimization's sake but for other stuff. It's true that the Knowledge skills are pretty "meh" and I probably should have put the ranks in other more useful things, I just felt like doing something a little different so I gained training in some knowledges and learned 2 languages via linguistics.

I suppose I could take those 5 skill points and place them elsewhere as so...

Acrobatics 3 ranks, Swim 2 ranks, giving a +3 Acrobatics and +4 Swim, counting Armor Check penalty (the 3 ranks in acrobatics is actually for the buff to fighting defensively / total defense).

Quote:
Rangers. I really like rangers, and they can cover alot of bases even solo. A party would be awesome, especially if they all get stealth ranks. Second Choice: Alchemist for similar reasons, go team Nuke'Em.

Absolutely. I think Ranger may be my favorite class in Pathfinder and totally agree a party of Rangers would be awesome. You could easily cover some of most everything in a party like that. I've also come to the conclusion that Ranger is the absolute best class for a beginner to play for the following reasons.

1) They begin as excellent martials and remain competitive in that role.
2) They get a large amount of skill points and class skills allowing you to sample much of the game's skill system.
3) At 4th level you get an animal companion in which to learn how to deal with minions.
4) At 4th level you get the ability to cast a small but excellent variety of spells and use prepared casting, allowing you to learn the magic system of the core game as well; and get a variety of buffs, status prevention or recovery, battlefield control, and mobility spells.
5) At 5th, 7th, and 9th levels you can take feats such as Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Items, or Craft Magic Arms & Armor, and taking one or more of these feats can introduce you to how item creation works.

Effectively, you learn more in Pathfinder by playing a Ranger than any other class in Pathfinder core and they are simple and easy to play (they get excellent bonus feats in organized trees and regardless of statistics, so it's difficult to ruin a Ranger because as a beginner you wasted your feats or didn't realize the prerequisites sooner), and their abilities come at a pace that you can first familiarize yourself with playing 1 character and the combat system, then graduate to more complicated things.


@ Ashiel
I actually learned the game from playing a Ranger.

As for the Skills, I said "needed to" because you built to be able to craft. I think the skill gap is not too much, but Armor Training lets you use it more, and it's one of the few definite thing the fighter has on the paladin. Doubly so in the Crypt scenario.

By the By, going to give your Paladin a go at the Sodden Lands?


With regards to the Quicksand Encounter. Should Be Perception DC:25, or Survival DC:15 to notice the quicksand before you step in it. Swim checks at a DC: 10 to float, and DC: 15 to move 5 feet. Failure by 5 or more means the character begins to drown.

Star Voter 2013

Brambleman wrote:
With regards to the Quicksand Encounter. Should Be Perception DC:25, or Survival DC:15 to notice the quicksand before you step in it. Swim checks at a DC: 10 to float, and DC: 15 to move 5 feet. Failure by 5 or more means the character begins to drown.

then the fighter will not have problem to float.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Why play a paladin when you can play a cleric with Bestow Grace of the Champion?

This is fun!


New scenario:

Bob the Expert. Level 5 human. Str12, Dex12, Con16, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12. Feats Skill focus Perception, SF Diplomacy, SF Survival, Toughness.
Skills Acrobatics
Climb
Diplomacy
Disable device
Ks Dungeoneering
Ks Local
Perception= +12
Profession Farmer
Stealth
Survival+ 12
Also in party is Flambo the Sorcerer, Sir Klewless the Pally, and Fra Bandade

They have been sent to investigate why a certain new vsettlement is failing:

Encounter 1: They need to travel overland thru a plains area. They are attacked by a swarm of Killer bees (Wasp Swarm) . Bob, having made his Ks Local is wearing a swarmsuit. Bob spots the swarms and shouts a warning (no one else made the Perc roll), then lites a torch. The Sorc (not having Ks Dungeoneering but does have Imp Init) fire a MM. The cleric casts Bless. The pally moves forward and readies. The swarm hits and covers the Bob & Sir Klewless Bob is pretty immune, he has DR 10 vs the swarm, while the pally gets hurt (but he does have excellent saves) the pallys AC does little good. Bob directs the Sorc to use burning hands while Bob swats the swarm with his torch (Bless does help here) . Due to Bobs foresight and knowledge the swarm is killed, and the pally can pretty much ignore the small amount of DEX loss until The cleric easily heals them.

2. Goblin Ambush! Bob easily spots the ambush and traps. This enables the Sorc to Send a Flaming sphere in, forcing the Gobbos out, into the Sorc grease and the pallys whirling blade. Prayer really helps here. Bob then flanks with the Pally. Bob doesn’t do a lot of damage but he can Fight defensively.

3. Finale: The settlement. Bob, aided by the Pally make Diplomacy rolls. The folk decide to trust them, also due to Fra Bandade healing some of them. They are starving, since they can’t make a crop come in. The cleric can cast Create F&W but that doesn’t solve the problem LT. Flambo the Sorcerer is no help, nor is the pally. Bob can gather some food with his super-survival skill but what really solves this is that Bob, using Prof Farmer, finds out that they have been using poor farming techniques. Bob also is able to suggest ways to work with the Killer Bees, since Bob noticed some giant flowers, and now they can use the bees to fend off invaders and gather the honey, making for a cash crop of mead- which Bob also knows how to make.

Look, see, now a NPC class is now the bestest most wonderfulest class there is.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

DrDeth wrote:
...

There's no need to be passive-aggressive. If you feel the adventures being used as examples are rigged somehow, prove it instead of making snide posts.


Rigged? No. Look, what I am trying to show is that every class, even the lowly NPC classes, have something to bring to the table, esp if done well and they fill gaps. The pally may be slight better than a fighter but we’d have to run a 1000 scenarios a 1000 times to show it for sure.

And even after we proved that mathematically speaking a Paladin can beat a Fighter 6 out of 10 times, that still doesn’t mean that the player who prefers the Fighter (‘as it’s more fun”) is wrong. No one is claiming that the fighter is nerfed like the old 3.5 Samurai was or that the PF Pally is the 3.5 Druid. They are both fun, well done, well balanced classes. Neither is as powerful as a full Spellcaster, neither is nerfed like a Monk.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

No one (except for maybe the OP, who disappeared after the first page) is claiming that you can't, or shouldn't play a fighter. The claim is that paladins are ultimately superior.

I like paladins. I like fighters. I've played both, and found the fighter to be wanting. That doesn't mean I won't play fighters again in the future, but it does mean I'll do it with the understanding that I am playing a weaker class- and there's nothing wrong with that.

After all, plenty of people like rogues.


The paladin and the ranger are the most mechanically powerful of the martial classes. That doesn't mean the most fun or that there aren't good builds with the others. The main pally advantages are defensive and the main fighter advantage is flexibility when comparing these classes.

Silver Crusade

proftobe wrote:
The paladin and the ranger are the most mechanically powerful of the martial classes. That doesn't mean the most fun or that there aren't good builds with the others. The main pally advantages are defensive and the main fighter advantage is flexibility when comparing these classes.

That's purely subjective. If you have some full proof data to back up that claim then I would like to see it. Ranger and Paladin may work best when pitted against certain creatures and situations but that doesn't make them over all mechanically better.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

shallowsoul wrote:
That's purely subjective. If you have some full proof data to back up that claim then I would like to see it. Ranger and Paladin may work best when pitted against certain creatures and situations but that doesn't make them over all mechanically better.

That's the purpose of the adventures that have been posted. You're welcome to contribute by constructing a fighter and running it through them.

Star Voter 2013

Aratrok wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
That's purely subjective. If you have some full proof data to back up that claim then I would like to see it. Ranger and Paladin may work best when pitted against certain creatures and situations but that doesn't make them over all mechanically better.
That's the purpose of the adventures that have been posted. You're welcome to contribute by constructing a fighter and running it through them.

With the exception of a couple of situations I do nt think the pallyhave outperformed a typical fighter.


No dude that's math. Rangers have 2 good saves excellent skill points animal companions bonus feats and spells before even mentioning favired enemy or Terrain. The paladin is the best defensively player in the game heavy armor lay on hands mercies all while still swinging away then add smite the first ir second best saves in the game-everyones heard about the paladin the didn't have a 14 cha but please admit he's a rare beast-aura's and weapon bind then a few spells. Other martial builds may do slightly more damage but both classes above hang close unless you're captain optimizer and still have options the other martials don't. I don't even like playing paladins and fighter is one of.my faces but mechanically one is more powerful than the other. Not more fun or useless but. Purely mechanical compariso of the classes.

Star Voter 2013

Ashiel wrote:

Geeze. If you're going to harp on this at least have the decency to check your facts first.

Zombie. Notice that a 20 HD zombie is CR 7. Now allow me to quote the part about fast zombies so that there is no mistake here.

PRD-Zombie Variants wrote:
The typical zombie is a slow-moving abomination that is tough to destroy. Yet this tough zombie is not the only type of zombie to plague crypts or stalk graveyards. Each of the following two variant zombies modifies the base zombie in a few simple ways.

The text you quote is irrelevant since it does not refere to the CR.

The template clearly indicates thatit leave the CR invariant. I do not see why you arguing against what it is clearly stated.

Now in more detail

Your zombie hydra have the Hps of a CR 13-14, the ac of a CR 30, the to hit of a CR 12. Against the AC 25 of your pally the hydra would do like 130 hps per turn, that is the damage of a CR 20+.

By the very definition of CR aceppt that you are wrong in this case.

(the fact that the party could sneak past it do not really matter when looking at its CR)

Silver Crusade

proftobe wrote:
No dude that's math. Rangers have 2 good saves excellent skill points animal companions bonus feats and spells before even mentioning favired enemy or Terrain. The paladin is the best defensively player in the game heavy armor lay on hands mercies all while still swinging away then add smite the first ir second best saves in the game-everyones heard about the paladin the didn't have a 14 cha but please admit he's a rare beast-aura's and weapon bind then a few spells. Other martial builds may do slightly more damage but both classes above hang close unless you're captain optimizer and still have options the other martials don't. I don't even like playing paladins and fighter is one of.my faces but mechanically one is more powerful than the other. Not more fun or useless but. Purely mechanical compariso of the classes.

No "dude" because you can't rely on the pure math because you can't predict what kind of encounters you are going to be facing. You can go through the data after the encounters are over and make your analysis but doing it before hand doesn't give you accurate information.

Silver Crusade

Aratrok wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
That's purely subjective. If you have some full proof data to back up that claim then I would like to see it. Ranger and Paladin may work best when pitted against certain creatures and situations but that doesn't make them over all mechanically better.
That's the purpose of the adventures that have been posted. You're welcome to contribute by constructing a fighter and running it through them.

And that will prove absolutely nothing instead of what I said before. Some encounters work out better for some classes while not for others and some then the next encounter could work horribly for the classes that did well before and work great for the classes that didn't have such luck before.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Nicos wrote:

The text you quote is irrelevant since it does not refere to the CR.

The template clearly indicates thatit leave the CR invariant. I do not see why you arguing against what it is clearly stated.

Now in more detail

Your zombie hydra have the Hps of a CR 13-14, the ac of a CR 30, the to hit of a CR 12. Against the AC 25 of your pally the hydra would do like 130 hps per turn, that is the damage of a CR 20+.

By the very definition of CR aceppt that you are wrong in this case.

(the fact that the party could sneak past it do not really matter when looking at its CR)

It directly refers to the CR. Read the template yourself; a 20 HD zombie is CR 7. Said zombie is created from the hydra, which had 20 HD. The fast zombie template (which is worth CR +0) is then applied to that zombie, with the result still being a CR 7 creature.

They use this table to determine their CR.
HD CR XP
1/2 1/8 50
1 1/4 100
2 1/2 200
3–4 1 400
5–6 2 600
7–8 3 800
9–10 4 1,200
11–12 5 1,600
13–16 6 2,400
17–20 7 3,200
21–24 8 4,800
25–28 9 6,400

shallowsoul wrote:
And that will prove absolutely nothing instead of what I said before. Some encounters work out better for some classes while not for others and some then the next encounter could work horribly for the classes that did well before and work great for the classes that didn't have such luck before.

Fine by me. If you refuse to back up your points in any way beyond "I'm right and you're wrong", I refuse to acknowledge them as valid. :P

Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.
shallowsoul wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
That's purely subjective. If you have some full proof data to back up that claim then I would like to see it. Ranger and Paladin may work best when pitted against certain creatures and situations but that doesn't make them over all mechanically better.
That's the purpose of the adventures that have been posted. You're welcome to contribute by constructing a fighter and running it through them.
And that will prove absolutely nothing instead of what I said before. Some encounters work out better for some classes while not for others and some then the next encounter could work horribly for the classes that did well before and work great for the classes that didn't have such luck before.

If it ended as you say then it would proof that the calsses are balanced.

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