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Paladin / Anti-Paladin = Fighter, Except Better? (Why play a Fighter then?)


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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The Core book says that any settlement of large town or larger can have a major magic item. That means that there are +3 or greater are major magic items and are available. You can find the relevant information here under Purchasing Magic Items.

So the rules do allow for greater than +2 weapons. The GMG is in agreement with the Core book but goes into more detail for those who want it. Using that information, we can say that Ashiel is wrong and we can move the conversation back to why fighters are better than paladins ;)


Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:

@ Ashiled, I noticed how you state the rules when it helps your argument and then you say you are using strictly RAW.

but when you do not have proof for something then you make a lehgthy dissertation of how usseful and reasonable it would be.

If you can not find a quote that explicitily supports Pcs buying partial wands in small villages then your claim is not RAW.

(There is not partial wands listed in the tables)

PRD wrote:
There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community.
PRD wrote:

Many items, particularly wands and staves, are limited in power by the number of charges they hold. Normally, charged items have 50 charges at most (10 for staves). If such an item is found as a random part of a treasure, roll d% and divide by 2 to determine the number of charges left (round down, minimum 1). If the item has a maximum number of charges other than 50, roll randomly to determine how many charges are left.

Prices listed are always for fully charged items. (When an item is created, it is fully charged.) For an item that's worthless when its charges run out (which is the case for almost all charged items), the value of the partially used item is proportional to the number of charges left. For an item that has usefulness in addition to its charges, only part of the item's value is based on the number of charges left.

In much the same way you might be able to find a single +1 arrow arrow for sale in a hamlet, but not a quiver. Arrows are constructed as a group of 50, but may be sold in lesser stacks than 50, and thus may be bought in lesser stacks than 50, merely because the value of a +1 arrow is within the town.

Okay, now as you were saying about the Fighter?

So the poor people of the poor hamlet have like 10 K of partially charged wands??

About fighters: Lets do another scenario for 10 level vanilla fighter/paladin,2 traits, 20 PB, mostly PFS rules (i could not think in anything more stnadar than PFS)

If your claim are true, it should be clear for everyone that see it that the paladin is superior in all regars compared to fighters-


I thought most campaigns basically assumed that you get appropriately awesome weapons like +5 vorpal weapons of bunny-slayng via custom crafting by a PC or friendly NPC or you use magic to track down a previously known weapon and liberate it from it's current owner.

Your local metropolis might not have +5 weapons but something like the city of brass or Dis probably does have them.


Shisumo wrote:

That doesn't say you can buy them, though, man. Just how much they're worth if you find them in a treasure.

Yes it's logical, and yes you can probably do it in most games, but partially-charged wands being available for sale is just as much houseruling as commissioning items is. (That is, the rules don't explicitly cover it, but they tell you how much it would cost if they did cover it, it's logical it would be available, so you can do it = perfectly valid and supportable houserule.)

I disagree on the grounds that the rules are quite clear. Any item of value X or lower can be found with little effort. This is immediately after declaring the value of partially charged items to be less for lower charges. So yeah.

Bob Loblaw wrote:

The Core book says that any settlement of large town or larger can have a major magic item. That means that there are +3 or greater are major magic items and are available. You can find the relevant information here under Purchasing Magic Items.

So the rules do allow for greater than +2 weapons. The GMG is in agreement with the Core book but goes into more detail for those who want it. Using that information, we can say that Ashiel is wrong and we can move the conversation back to why fighters are better than paladins ;)

Bob, I expected more from you man. I already covered this. There is the very low possibility that there is a greater than +2 weapon available in the town, but the chances of it being the weapon you want is exceptionally low. I covered this a while back. You randomly generate those items, which means they can be of vastly different powers and may not be the type of weapon that you want (while a Paladin, Ranger, Cavalier, or whatever probably won't care if it's a +X axe, sword, or hammer, a fighter with longsword specialization is going to be out of luck if it is anything except longsword specifically).


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Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Crafting non listed item is subject to DM approval (DM Fiat as you call it) so it is a Houserule.
Which is both only your assertion and completely irrelevant.

Actually, the rules explicitly state that items (other than potions, staves, scrolls, etc) "require at least some judgment calls". Who do you think is making those judgment calls: the player, or the GM? Meanwhile, the magic item base value by city chart is explicitly labeled a "guideline".


I disagree in what ashiel say is RAW and what he say it is not RAW (and it is my believe taht he uses RAW/RAI when he need it for an argument and he argue against RAW/RAI when he need it for another argument)

But the important point is that fighter are only non good in that kind of games then for everyone else the class is just fine.


Nicos wrote:
So the poor people of the poor hamlet have like 10 K of partially charged wands??

Right next to their trillion gold pieces worth of alchemist fire. If you want to be asinine we can play that game.

Vuron wrote:

I thought most campaigns basically assumed that you get appropriately awesome weapons like +5 vorpal weapons of bunny-slayng via custom crafting by a PC or friendly NPC or you use magic to track down a previously known weapon and liberate it from it's current owner.

Your local metropolis might not have +5 weapons but something like the city of brass or Dis probably does have them.

Thank God, reason! This is pretty much exactly what I said earlier. If you want something more awesome you're gonna craft, quest, or kill. I said you could craft it yourselves, loot it off enemies, or go on a quest to find one (which may include traveling to other planes).

It seems that this has been the impasse, since nobody can explain how you can assuredly expect to have the weapon that you want without GM fiat if you're following the core rules; which was only brought up concerning a specific conversation between Bob Loblaw and some of us. When you have to bury your heads and start flinging insults, asserting people are wrong without evidence, or trying to defame them rather than simply meeting the challenge, you've pretty much ended your real argument.

Again, which I expected more of from Bob, because Bob isn't exactly known for being clueless of Fighters. If anyone had an answer, it should have been Bob, rather than trying to assert that it's not fair.


Roberta Yang wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Crafting non listed item is subject to DM approval (DM Fiat as you call it) so it is a Houserule.
Which is both only your assertion and completely irrelevant.
Actually, the rules explicitly state that items (other than potions, staves, scrolls, etc) "require at least some judgment calls". Who do you think is making those judgment calls: the player, or the GM? Meanwhile, the magic item base value by city chart is explicitly labeled a "guideline".

Yes, they are a guideline, the listed stuff is the standard. We could assume that we're playing a mega-high magic campaign and assume all magic items ever are available in a metropolis (it mentions this), or we could assume that magic items aren't for sale at all (it mentions this as well), and we could assume different XP tracks and thus different rates of treasure advancement (fast track NPCs have more treasure on them and thus bigger numbers than slow XP track), and we can randomly divide by 2 or multiply by 2 for high/low fantasy.

Or we could, I dunno, stick to standard for discussions about the game and perhaps add in the caveat "hey, it's helpful to this class if your GM runs extra-high magic".

EDIT: And crafting custom items is pretty damned irrelevant at the moment. I'm not saying that Paladins are the leet hax because they can craft sweet items that let them turn into dragons at will and smite with with their many natural attacks. I'm not even bringing custom crafting into the discussion. I'm talking normal everyday magic items already listed in the books, by the rules of the books, at the standards set by the books. Damn.


Ashiel wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Crafting non listed item is subject to DM approval (DM Fiat as you call it) so it is a Houserule.
Which is both only your assertion and completely irrelevant.
Actually, the rules explicitly state that items (other than potions, staves, scrolls, etc) "require at least some judgment calls". Who do you think is making those judgment calls: the player, or the GM? Meanwhile, the magic item base value by city chart is explicitly labeled a "guideline".

Yes, they are a guideline, the listed stuff is the standard. We could assume that we're playing a mega-high magic campaign and assume all magic items ever are available in a metropolis (it mentions this), or we could assume that magic items aren't for sale at all (it mentions this as well), and we could assume different XP tracks and thus different rates of treasure advancement (fast track NPCs have more treasure on them and thus bigger numbers than slow XP track), and we can randomly divide by 2 or multiply by 2 for high/low fantasy.

Or we could, I dunno, stick to standard for discussions about the game and perhaps add in the caveat "hey, it's helpful to this class if your GM runs extra-high magic".

So , it is a guideline, crafting listed item is the standar andcrafting non listed item is a houserule (you need GM fiat for that).

but at the same time it is RAW and standar for forum discussion?

Sorry but you are contradicting yourselfs.


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You do know what the word "guideline" means, right? Because based on your post, I'm not entirely certain that you do.

Cheliax

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Man this game is super easy to figure out once you throw out unnecessary things like the GM.


Roberta Yang wrote:
You do know what the word "guideline" means, right? Because based on your post, I'm not entirely certain that you do.

English World Dictionary.

"a principle put forward to set standards or determine a course of action"

Nicos wrote:
but at the same time it is RAW and standar for forum discussion?

Damn strait. Without a standard no conclusion shall be met. ALL RULES are variable. The RAW is the standard by which things are measured. If you are playing the game as is standard you will be following the RAW. The standard says that 16,000 gp is the GP limit that you can regularly acquire stuff for. If you run a low magic then the limit drops to 8,000 gp. If you run high magic the limit swells to 32,000 gp. Or you can ignore the rules entirely and claim it as the way everyone plays, I guess.


Lamontius wrote:


Man this game is super easy to figure out once you throw out unnecessary things like the GM.

Man it's super hard to have a discussion like civilized people when we get angry at people following the standard rules.


"Guideline" and "Rule" are different words for a reason; something is hardly "standard" if you're the only one who uses it; and I don't see anything in the rulebook that says it's impossible to hire commissions.

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
I once had a gravedigger NPC who was a ranger and he used a +3 undead bane shovel.
He was a unique NPC. The cemetery's occupants had a nasty habit of not staying in their places so the old ranger became a gravedigger to keep them under control.

So did he have the +4 shovel commissioned on his gravedigger salary, or did he trade in his possessions from adventuring to get a +4 shovel?

Actually, nevermind. It's not that important. It just boggles my mind that you guys seem to get up in arms because I follow the rules and don't expect there to be magic stores catering to my every whim on demand (especially when the core rules note larger settlements to only have about one or two purveyors of magical goodies), when you have random gravediggers who are apparently retired superheroes with shovels valued at over 32,300 gp. It appears we are operating on entirely different expectations of the world.

My tabletop game tends to be pretty tame. We use 15 point buy, and I use very little splatbook material. My NPCs use NPC wealth in all but the rarest of occasions (even the big bads). I'm open to players purchasing consumables of the appropriate values if its under the GP limit of a population center, and the same for non-consumables. I keep my game world as believable as I can where I think it matters, which includes having NPCs use items they are capable of using (which means you will see things like Rakshasa using wands, or a Marilith wielding better than masterwork swords or some masterwork studded leather made from fiendish animal skins). My games are "hard" but definitely do-able by standard 15 PB, medium XP, core classes, all the way up to the highest levels when you could be fighting swarms of demi-god powered foes.

So let's agree to disagree. I don't ever want to hear you guys mock me, or my games, or my acknowledgement of what is legal in core, and I'll not poke fun at your near 20th level NPC gravediggers and magic marts; and we cut down...

I'll keep it short and simple.

NPC's in my games have what ever I want them to have. Also, unless he lets you hold it, you aren't going to know it's stats anyway.

Would someone like to fill me in on the errata that made WBL a rule?

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:
You do know what the word "guideline" means, right? Because based on your post, I'm not entirely certain that you do.

English World Dictionary.

"a principle put forward to set standards or determine a course of action"

Nicos wrote:
but at the same time it is RAW and standar for forum discussion?
Damn strait. Without a standard no conclusion shall be met. ALL RULES are variable. The RAW is the standard by which things are measured. If you are playing the game as is standard you will be following the RAW. The standard says that 16,000 gp is the GP limit that you can regularly acquire stuff for. If you run a low magic then the limit drops to 8,000 gp. If you run high magic the limit swells to 32,000 gp. Or you can ignore the rules entirely and claim it as the way everyone plays, I guess.

Incorrect. Guidelines are not hard coded rules. We use WBL on these forums to help keep everyone on the same page.


Roberta Yang wrote:
"Guideline" and "Rule" are different words for a reason; something is hardly "standard" if you're the only one who uses it; and I don't see anything in the rulebook that says it's impossible to hire commissions.

Did I say impossible? No. I did not. Did I say it was purely in the realm of not-the-standards? Yes. Did I say that it is perfectly acceptable for the NPC to demand more for this special service? Yes. Did I say that it might take questing? Yes. Did I say that it would be entirely fair for the GM to simply say no and not be a jerk for it? Yes. Did I say it was impossible? No, no I did not.

Everything is theoretically possible. It's possible that your GM had a 1st level kobold wielding a +5 vorpal sword of speed (and yes I'm aware that is a +12 equivalent weapon). It's not very probable and goes against the standard measures of the game as they are put forth. Most people would quirk a brow if a kobold is toting around a lot more than 290 gp worth of equipment. If your game deviates from the standards, it's generally a good thing to tell your players upfront "Okay guys, I don't like magic-marts much, so I'm running this with the low-magic assumption for magic item availability" is perfectly fine and lets your players know what to expect. The reverse is also true, such as if they decide they think 16,000 gp is too low so they crank it up to like 200,000 gp and let players know about this difference between the game they expect to play and the game they are playing. That's just being considerate.

When we're talking on the public forum about the game, particularly when the balance of something is in question, I stick by the etiquette that I learned on the WotC boards and Giant in the Playground, and that is to stick to the standards as much as possible unless it is specifically called out to be a discussion about something that is not the standard. If this thread was "In a high magic game, which is better, Fighter or Paladin?" then I would base my arguments and comments on high magic and not standard. Same with low magic. Otherwise it defaults to standard. That's why when I'm posting builds for DPS and such, I stick to items that are available with regularity within the standard GP limits. It's called being fair and honest.

When someone says "By level X a fighter will have a +3 weapon anyway, making Y irrelevant" then they are not being fair or honest. They are assuming things that are not part of the standard. They are assuming that they have had special treatment from the GM to allow such, and in doing so is just as irrelevant as saying that they found a +5 merciful sword at 4th level. In all cases they are relying on the GM to make it available and that's GM fiat. We cannot say what GM discretion will be. GM discretion tends to change from GM to GM. What is good in one's is not good in the other. There must be a standard or else communication is futile and we will all look stupid standing in a circle talking about our own little microcosms.

Silver Crusade

Shisumo wrote:

That doesn't say you can buy them, though, man. Just how much they're worth if you find them in a treasure.

Yes it's logical, and yes you can probably do it in most games, but partially-charged wands being available for sale is just as much houseruling as commissioning items is. (That is, the rules don't explicitly cover it, but they tell you how much it would cost if they did cover it, it's logical it would be available, so you can do it = perfectly valid and supportable houserule.)

Holy Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!

Are we doing the partial wand discussion again?


shallowsoul wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:
You do know what the word "guideline" means, right? Because based on your post, I'm not entirely certain that you do.

English World Dictionary.

"a principle put forward to set standards or determine a course of action"

Nicos wrote:
but at the same time it is RAW and standar for forum discussion?
Damn strait. Without a standard no conclusion shall be met. ALL RULES are variable. The RAW is the standard by which things are measured. If you are playing the game as is standard you will be following the RAW. The standard says that 16,000 gp is the GP limit that you can regularly acquire stuff for. If you run a low magic then the limit drops to 8,000 gp. If you run high magic the limit swells to 32,000 gp. Or you can ignore the rules entirely and claim it as the way everyone plays, I guess.
Incorrect. Guidelines are not hard coded rules. We use WBL on these forums to help keep everyone on the same page.

They are synonymous.

Cheliax

So the cover of Ultimate Equipment should have just been a random item table, with Valeros softly weeping in the background.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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heh.

You know it's time to shut a thread when the argument about the rules comes down to an argument as to what 'rule' means. Assaulting language and definition is the last stage of an internet argument.

==Aelryinth

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I really don't find it unreasonable to allow +3 weapons to be available. Since the difference between them and a +2 weapon is so negligible.


Ashiel wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:
You do know what the word "guideline" means, right? Because based on your post, I'm not entirely certain that you do.

English World Dictionary.

"a principle put forward to set standards or determine a course of action"

Nicos wrote:
but at the same time it is RAW and standar for forum discussion?
Damn strait. Without a standard no conclusion shall be met. ALL RULES are variable. The RAW is the standard by which things are measured. If you are playing the game as is standard you will be following the RAW. The standard says that 16,000 gp is the GP limit that you can regularly acquire stuff for. If you run a low magic then the limit drops to 8,000 gp. If you run high magic the limit swells to 32,000 gp. Or you can ignore the rules entirely and claim it as the way everyone plays, I guess.
Incorrect. Guidelines are not hard coded rules. We use WBL on these forums to help keep everyone on the same page.
They are synonymous.

Now I see. It is clear then that only ahsiel is right about what is RAW and what is RAI (to the point that even if DEV shows and said that is not the case it would not matter)

/sarcasm

No seriously can we go back and have a serious discussion about fighters and paladins?

Shadow Lodge

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Aelryinth wrote:

heh.

You know it's time to shut a thread when the argument about the rules comes down to an argument as to what 'rule' means. Assaulting language and definition is the last stage of an internet argument.

==Aelryinth

When you start arguing semantics, you've lost the argument.


Nicos wrote:
Now I see. It is clear then that only ahsiel is right about what is RAW and what is RAI (to the point that even if DEV shows and said that is not the case it would not matter)

No, the RAW is the rules that are written. That's not very hard to understand. The rules that are written in the game are freely available on the PRD. There's this really cool thing there called "The Core Rulebook" that has things like rules for stuff like availability of magic items, how much wealth NPCs should have, and creating magic items. It also has this really cool rule that says anything in the rules can be changed subject to GM/group discretion, but the rules as they are written are quite clear on what is standard and what isn't. I don't have to decide the RAW, because the RAW is already decided by what's written. I merely have to decide how far I want to deviate from the RAW (and in a discussion like this that is not at all if at all possible).

Quote:
No seriously can we go back and have a serious discussion about fighters and paladins?

I asked much the same about five times I think. You still haven't provided an answer to my question, merely dodged or attacked, not met. Much to my sadness, Bob_Loblaw didn't even answer my question but attempted to sweep it under the rug (something I did not think Bob would do, honestly; though I think he was doing so in jest). Either meet the issue or do not. You can argue semantics all day long, but until you meet my point you have failed. I await your attempt that doesn't include semantic bickering.

In the meantime, I'm working on a project for my games and for the community so I'm going to be a little busy and won't be responding as quickly for a while. Good luck with stuff in the meantime.


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TOZ wrote:


When you start arguing semantics, you've lost the argument.

It really depends on what you mean by "arguing semantics". :P

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Pippi wrote:
TOZ wrote:


When you start arguing semantics, you've lost the argument.
It really depends on what you mean by "arguing semantics". :P

hehe!

==Aelryinth

Cheliax

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A cover illustration with Valeros just crying and cursing the gods while holding a +3 Greataxe, when he is sword-focused.

Are you working on that right now?


I give my PCs their entire WBL in the form of Monks Robes. None of them is a monk. Then the shopkeepers won't buy them all because there's no demand for that many Monks Robes.


For what it's worth, I use standard item availability in my games and I'm yet to meet a DM in person that doesn't as well.

It breaks my sense of immersion when you have shopkeepers toting around weapons that are the envy of the gods- this game models a fantasy world, but it's a fantasy world with its own standards and rules.

Cheliax

This all sounds pretty awesome if you can only gain sustenance through the delicious tears shed by your weeping players.

Then again, this robe is quite slimming.


Do commissions break your sense of immersion too?


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Roberta Yang wrote:
Do commissions break your sense of immersion too?

No. I allow them within reason, under the assumption that they're purchasing not only the item but time. An item crafter isn't going to give up 200 days to make a +10 sword out of charity, after all. They've got vast sums of money already, and you'll need to perform a service or offer something extraordinary to get their attention.


Ashiel wrote:

Bob, I expected more from you man. I already covered this. There is the very low possibility that there is a greater than +2 weapon available in the town, but the chances of it being the weapon you want is exceptionally low. I covered this a while back. You randomly generate those items, which means they can be of vastly different powers and may not be the type of weapon that you want (while a Paladin, Ranger, Cavalier, or whatever probably won't care if it's a +X axe, sword, or hammer, a fighter with longsword specialization is going to be out of luck if it is anything except longsword specifically).

That's when you take it and craft it into something else by getting a spellcaster to use a higher level spell which would still be within the cost limits of the settlement.

You're also assuming that the fighter requires a specific weapon. He may not. In the end though, you made the claim that +2 weapons were the maximum available and that's not the case.

If we use the GMG, which is still considered Paizo material and is available for free and was designed to deal with situations just like this, then we have hard numbers to work with and we find that we can have higher bonused items.

There's also always the possibility of items being available beyond just what a blurb in the book suggests. Remember that no one, not a single person, follows the book 100% to the letter on every thing and there are some things that it can't take into account. You know, like a high level character walking into town with a +4 weapon then dying for whatever reason. That town now has a +4 weapon in it. It doesn't cease to exist because the book says it can't be there. There are also plenty of retired adventurers that have high powered items available as well.


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Lamontius wrote:


A cover illustration with Valeros just crying and cursing the gods while holding a +3 Greataxe, when he is sword-focused.

Are you working on that right now?

Yep, you caught me. That's the one. Coming up with a concept sketch in watercolors (made from the tears of players who overspecialize), then I'm going to take the money I make each week GMing and see if I can get Wayne Reynolds to do his awesomeness. I shall then hang a copy of it on my wall as a poster, and put a copy of it on the piece I'm working on for the community. Everyone gets a laugh, and we all win because it's freaking Wayne Reynolds art (Waaaaayne Reeeeyynooollllddsss *shiver*). :P


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

Bob, I expected more from you man. I already covered this. There is the very low possibility that there is a greater than +2 weapon available in the town, but the chances of it being the weapon you want is exceptionally low. I covered this a while back. You randomly generate those items, which means they can be of vastly different powers and may not be the type of weapon that you want (while a Paladin, Ranger, Cavalier, or whatever probably won't care if it's a +X axe, sword, or hammer, a fighter with longsword specialization is going to be out of luck if it is anything except longsword specifically).

That's when you take it and craft it into something else by getting a spellcaster to use a higher level spell which would still be within the cost limits of the settlement.

You're also assuming that the fighter requires a specific weapon. He may not. In the end though, you made the claim that +2 weapons were the maximum available and that's not the case.

I didn't make that claim though. I claimed they were the maximum that are readily available unless you want to bribe the dice gods. There's a big difference. Bambleman took a bit to experiment, and by the time he actually found a magic sword like he was looking for, it was actually a +5 equivalent mithral sword and out of his price range. :P

Quote:
If we use the GMG, which is still considered Paizo material and is available for free and was designed to deal with situations just like this, then we have hard numbers to work with and we find that we can have higher bonused items.

Again going to GM fiat as an optional rule, just like Insanity is optional. If we want to start bringing in these things then we've got new ammunition against the Fighter because now his poor-ish Will saves put him at greater risk of ending up in a mental institution. :P (And yes, I'm kidding, but hopefully you get the point.)

Quote:
There's also always the possibility of items being available beyond just what a blurb in the book suggests. Remember that no one, not a single person, follows the book 100% to the letter on every thing and there are some things that it can't take into account. You know, like a high level character walking into town with a +4 weapon then dying for whatever reason. That town now has a +4 weapon in it. It doesn't cease to exist because the book says it can't be there. There are also plenty of retired adventurers that have high powered items available as well.

Again, GM fiat. The rules already cover exotic items that you can get from a city above and beyond the norm. Like I said, Brambleman found a +4 holy mithral longsword for sale after a ton of tries. But the problem is you're not guaranteed to get what you want, and your odds are slim. What you can honestly count on is being able to get a nice +2 weapon. Anything else requires a larger expenditure of luck, effort, or time, and may not be possible depending on circumstances.


Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Now I see. It is clear then that only ahsiel is right about what is RAW and what is RAI (to the point that even if DEV shows and said that is not the case it would not matter)

No, the RAW is the rules that are written. That's not very hard to understand. The rules that are written in the game are freely available on the PRD. There's this really cool thing there called "The Core Rulebook" that has things like rules for stuff like availability of magic items, how much wealth NPCs should have, and creating magic items. It also has this really cool rule that says anything in the rules can be changed subject to GM/group discretion, but the rules as they are written are quite clear on what is standard and what isn't. I don't have to decide the RAW, because the RAW is already decided by what's written. I merely have to decide how far I want to deviate from the RAW (and in a discussion like this that is not at all if at all possible).

"Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls."

This invalidate your point, and i found it in the SRD.

Ashiel wrote:


Quote:
No seriously can we go back and have a serious discussion about fighters and paladins?

I asked much the same about five times I think. You still haven't provided an answer to my question, merely dodged or attacked, not met. Much to my sadness, Bob_Loblaw didn't even answer my question but attempted to sweep it under the rug (something I did not think Bob would do, honestly; though I think he was doing so in jest). Either meet the issue or do not. You can argue semantics all day long, but until you meet my point you have failed. I await your attempt that doesn't include semantic bickering.

Do not be wrong.

" I have found that Weapon bond and the posibility of casting GMW are very useful for a paladin because in the campaings I have played I can not always find the weapon I would liek to have"

i think tat the last can be very true. Those abilities are a great boon for the pally, and fighter woudl relly in the clerric buddy for the GMW.

But, a diferent thing is

" You can not count that a 15th fighter would have a +3 equivalent magic weapon because the RAW=Guideline=Standar do not allow it for forum discussion".

I think a fighter wuld do good with a +3, +1 holy, +2 shocking ... whatever weapon he have.


Nicos wrote:

"Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls."

This invalidate your point, and i found it in the SRD.

Um, no it doesn't. I'm not talking about custom magic items at all. I not even brought up custom magic items in this thread (you're the one who has been blathering about it and I can't for the life of me figure out why). I've never said that they don't require the GM to okay them (only that they are made using the core rules); and that was in a conversation completely and utterly irrelevant to this one.

Quote:

Do not be wrong.

" I have found that Weapon bond and the posibility of casting GMW are very useful for a paladin because in the campaings I have played I can not always find the weapon I would liek to have"

i think tat the last can be very true. Those abilities are a great boon for the pally, and fighter woudl relly in the clerric buddy for the GMW.

But, a diferent thing is

" You can not count that a 15th fighter would have a +3 equivalent magic weapon because the RAW=Guideline=Standar do not allow it for forum discussion".

I think a fighter wuld do good with a +3, +1 holy, +2 shocking ... whatever weapon he have.

Both are correct. You can't reliably acquire such without GM intervention, so as it stands that is something that is to be considered. In general you (fighter or paladin) is going to be using equipment that is not the best in the world unless you loot it or quest it or craft it. If your Fighter cannot Craft it, then we're looking at GM fiat to give you your cookies. Strike against the Fighter.

Anytime you have to default to saying "Well a good GM wouldn't..." or "Well a good GM would..." to fix or alleviate the ailments of something critical to your character (such as class/race/build) then you have a problem.


Nicos wrote:

"Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls."

This invalidate your point, and i found it in the SRD.

Actually this doesn't invalidate any point at all. You see simply because the rules say that there can be or should be deviation, that doesn't mean that any sort of deviation will be in the players favor.

I believe the reference you used says "The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth."

What this actually means is that it is up to the campaign/GM to determine whether there is a viable reason for any deviation to exist, such as playing in a low magic campaign or high magic campaign. Then the text that you quoted gives some examples of what could affect pricing items, such as what class is scribing the scrolls. And even your quote says that wands and potions don't deviate at all. Were does the invalidation come in?

Silver Crusade

I just want to repeat what I said in another thread. If you are a player then WBL is none of your business. It is a tool for the DM only. You can't go in assuming you are supposed to have this at level X because the WBL suggests it. You don't know how the GM has his encounters planned out and his cities.


Allow me to put it another way. I don't have to say that a good GM would include evil things for me to smite for a Paladin to be useful and relevant. A Fighter has to say that the GM would include enemies that dropped weapons that he was specialized in, or make special changes and/or considerations for the Fighter to acquire exactly the weapon that he/she wants (because a commission is just another form of purchasing a magic item). A Fighter who has specialized in longswords is statistically stunted if he or she cannot get the weapon that he or she is specialized in. A Paladin, Ranger, Cavalier, Barbarian, or most any other class can make use of what they find. A Ranger picks up a +1 wounding rapier? He found a new toy. A Barbarian finds they have a +2 merciful heavy mace on sale in this town? He can totally use that. The Fighter finds a +5 defending club? He cries. The marilith dies and all she has is masterwork cold iron longswords (inferior to his +2 sword)? He cries. Fighter fights a cleric of an evil god that facors scythes and finds a +1 scythe of speed? Crap more tears.

A Paladin or Ranger who don't encounter their favorite enemies have other means of functioning and do so well. A Fighter who doesn't get a steady supply of his favorite weapon loses the biggest advantage he has over not just other martials but any class at all.


shallowsoul wrote:
I just want to repeat what I said in another thread. If you are a player then WBL is none of your business. It is a tool for the DM only. You can't go in assuming you are supposed to have this at level X because the WBL suggests it. You don't know how the GM has his encounters planned out and his cities.

Exactly, Shallowsoul. There is no guarantee. You may get flooded with goodies early on, or go with a great drought, or maybe there aren't magic marts at all, or maybe they're flooded with phat lewts.

I'm aware that things change from time to time. Once campaign I was running for my brother and friends opened up with them accompanying a caravan across a snow-covered mountain with lots of forest dotting it. During the opening of the campaign, there was an avalanche caused by some badguys that basically took out the whole caravan, leaving the 1st level party as the lone survivors. They now needed to make it back to civilization, and had to loot the caravan for anything that could help them. Basically, the group looted some masterwork armors, adamantine longsword, a case of potions, a sack of scrolls (there wasn't even an arcane caster in the party :P), some food supplies, and a number of other things that were useful and valuable. They then set out. Now they were all vastly above WBL but went for several levels worth of the adventure without so much as hermit to trade with, and in a few spots started using consumables just so they wouldn't have to carry them.

But I won't come online and say "Well your GM can give you masterwork full plate and an adamantine longsword at first level, hence this class is awesome".


Overspecialization. That is one of the reasons I hate Weapon Focus/Specialization. Second only to the fact that they are boring as hell.

Everytime I try to build a fighter (building them is fun; playing them... not really...), I avoid Weapon Focus/Specialization and EWP(Falcata) like the plague!

I take feats like Cornugon Smash, Improved Sunder, Lunge, Stand Still... You know... Feats that actually add something to your skill set other than random numerical bonuses and don't take 4 feats and 6 levels to work.

Hell, even Manyshot is cooler than Weapon Focus! It's a shame that weapon focus is a prerequisite for so many feats...

Power Attack is possibly the one "numerical" feat I think is somewhat fun, tahnks to its simple prerequisites, efficiency and number of options it opens.

Only EWP feats I even consider are Nets and Whips, because those weapon open up cool new options. Falcatas are about as fun as watching paint dry.

Also, I believe all Fighters should get "Martial Mastery" for free.

Silver Crusade

Lemmy wrote:

Overspecialization. That is one of the reasons I hate Weapon Focus/Specialization. Second only to the fact that they are boring as hell.

Everytime I try to build a fighter (building them is fun; playing them... not really...), I avoid Weapon Focus/Specialization and EWP(Falcata) like the plague!

I take feats like Cornugon Smash, Improved Sunder, Lunge, Stand Still... You know... Feats that actually add something to your skill set other than random numerical bonuses and don't take 4 feats and 6 levels to work.

Hell, even Manyshot is cooler than Weapon Focus! It's a shame that weapon focus is a prerequisite for so many feats...

Power Attack is possibly the one "numerical" feat I think is somewhat fun, tahnks to its simple prerequisites, efficiency and number of options it opens.

Only EWP feats I even consider are Nets and Whips, because those weapon open up cool new options. Falcatas are about as fun as watching paint dry.

Also, I believe all Fighters should get "Martial Mastery" for free.

So what's the problem with having such expertise in a type of weapon?

I would say the Rangers favored enemy feature is more restrictive and yet we don't hear bad things about it.


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The problem is because your super specialized weapon might not show up. You have no idea what your enemies are going to use. Of course, this is less of a problem if you've planned things out with the rest of the players in your party, and someone's going to take Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

The risk of not finding your favorite weapon is part of why I like fighters as archers; composite longbows are the go-to ranged weapon of choice, so when I play an archer fighter I know I'm at the very least going to find a few bows worth using*. And I can fight in melee with them once I get Point-blank Master.

*For example, the very first encounter in Kingmaker has a composite bow with a +2 strength modifier. Ka-ching!


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Problem? Other than picking 4~6 of the most boring feats ever? None, I guess...
Well, maybe the fact that not all enemies are wielding the same weapon as you. Or the fact that it kills the whole "fighter are masters of combat versatility" argument.
Who knows... I could also note that if your weapon is inefficient for any reason (like a Falchion against a flying enemy, or a swarm, or a bow in a rainy day...), you are 4 feats short. And feats is all you have.

BTW, note that I didn't even make a comment against Fighters. Only against the usual "let's get lots of numerical bonuses for a single weapon because I don't care if I can't do anything other than full attack every time" mentality.

I love Improved Critical as much as the nexy guy, but let's be frank, it's not exactly the most exciting feat ever...

You've got 11 extra feats, full BAB and Weapon Training! For f@@+'s sake, man, get some cool things to do! Preferably something that doesn't makes your action economy cry. Or something that is a little more fun than a +1 bonus.

EDIT: Also... Ranger is not fighting his favored enemy... Okay, he still has a crap ton of class features! Also: Instant Enemy.

Fighter can't use his feats... well... He can... err... Hope to be able to use them next encounter, I guess?


shallowsoul wrote:
So what's the problem with having such expertise in a type of weapon?

As pointed it, it means it's all or nothing. Your success is binary (Yes/No), and you're entirely reliant on having/buying/crafting/finding a specific type of weapon.

Quote:
I would say the Rangers favored enemy feature is more restrictive and yet we don't hear bad things about it.

Well, there are two reasons for that. Rangers can pick stuff like Undead, Evil Outsiders, Magical Beasts, Aberrations, and something else if they want and those things cover vast numbers of enemies. And then they get a swift-action spell later on that makes anything vulnerable to their FE.

Aberration: aboleth, choker, chuul, cloaker, dark naga, drider, ettercap, froghemoth, gibbering mouther, guardian naga, intellect devourer, mimic, neothelid, otyugh, roper, rust monster, spirit naga, will-o'-wisp, and all advanced versions therein (included augmented).

Animal: ankylosaurus, aurochs, bat, bat swarm, bison, boar, brachiosaurus, cat, cheetah, constrictor snake, crocodile, deinonychus, dire ape, dire bat, dire bear, dire boar, dire crocodile, dire hyena, dire lion, dire rat, dire shark, dire tiger, dire wolf, dire wolverine, dog, dolphin, eagle, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant, giant frilled lizard, giant frog, giant moray eel, giant octopus, giant squid, goblin dog, gorilla, grizzly bear, hawk, horse, hyena, leopard, lion, lizard, mastodon, monitor lizard, monkey, octopus, orca, owl, poison frog, pony, pteranodon, rat, rat swarm, raven, rhinoceros, riding dog, roc, shark, squid, stegosaurus, tiger, toad, triceratops, tyrannosaurus, venomous snake, viper, weasel, wolf, wolverine, woolly rhinoceros, and all advanced versions therein (included augmented).

Dragon: black dragon, blue dragon, brass dragon, bronze dragon, copper dragon, crag linnorm, dracolisk, dragon turtle, gold dragon, ice linnorm, green dragon, pseudodragon, red dragon, silver dragon, tarn linnorm, white dragon, wyvern, and all advanced versions therein (included augmented).

Outsider (evil): barghest, bebelith, cauchemar, demons, devils, hell hound, kyton, nessian warhound, night hag, nightmare, vargouille, xill, yeth hound, and all advanced versions therein (included augmented).

Undead: devourer, ghost, ghoul, greater shadow, lich, mohrg, mummy, shadow, skeletal champion, skeleton (includes all other creatures mentioned above), spectre, vampire, wight, wraith, zombie (includes all other creatures mentioned above), and all advanced versions therein (included augmented).

Weapon Specialization (Longsword): Longsword.


Power Attack
EWP: Falcata.
Furious Focus
Weapon Fcous: Falcata
Weapon Specialization: Falcata
Greater Weapon Fcous: Falcata
Greater Weapon Specialization: Falcata
Improved Critical: Falcata
Critical Focus
Iron Will

Oh yeah, baby! That's some fun and exciting build, isn't it? 10 feats of AWESOME NUMERICAL BONUSES!

AND YOU STILL HAVE ANOTHER 11 FEATS TO REPEAT THE SAME PROCESS WITH BOWS! AWESOME!!

Sadly... Not at all an unusual build...

Silver Crusade

Aratrok wrote:

The problem is because your super specialized weapon might not show up. You have no idea what your enemies are going to use. Of course, this is less of a problem if you've planned things out with the rest of the players in your party, and someone's going to take Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

The risk of not finding your favorite weapon is part of why I like fighters as archers; composite longbows are the go-to ranged weapon of choice, so when I play an archer fighter I know I'm at the very least going to find a few bows worth using*. And I can fight in melee with them once I get Point-blank Master.

*For example, the very first encounter in Kingmaker has a composite bow with a +2 strength modifier. Ka-ching!

Unless you are choosing some super rare type of weapon then you won't have a problem, especially with longswords, greatsword, and axes.

Qadira

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Ashiel, what do your players do with all the items they pick up that are useless to them?

In most games I know of, the GM allows them to just sell them at half value. This gives them gold to purchase other itmes.

However, according to you, this isn't going to happen because, who wants all that crap lying around their town since no ones going to buy it.

How the hell do all those bad guys get their +3 weapons?

If you're in combat against badies with warrior or fighter levels, chances are you're going to pick up a wepon that matches your skill set. I think by your rule of random loot allocation, its not unfair to assume that the big bad has a +1 or +2 holy long sword lying discarded somehwere because he was just unlucky in raiding the last town he hit. "Damnit, I was hoping for a bane weapon vs good humanoids, but all I got is this +2 holy longsword. Bah! Put it with the partially used wands of make whole and prestidigitation"

Seriously, in every discussion on this board WBL has always been used to add a level playing field. Your an exponent of this in every arguemtn you wade in on.

Except this one for some reason.

When we mention Verisimiltude in terms of alignment and code wekness for the Palaidn, it gets put down. However, now it seems to come up as a counter for fighters and access to their weapons.

As for the weapon, we're playing in a world with factions that send agents out to fight each other, patrons that hire PC's, cities that are rescued by PC's and merchants who want PC wealth. It is not unreasonable to assume that during the course of an actual campaign, rather than Theoryville, that players can find the weapon they want either through loot, through purchasing or through contacts.

Most of us understand this, so when it comes to a place where the purchase of an item is possible, we tend to just "handwave it" since the last time we went down the track of tediously rolling time and looking up factors we found it wasn't fun.

Don't tell people they can't bring their games into a discussion when you always bring your games into it.

Part of being able to compare a class is its ability to fit into the world of the GM and the party they run with.

Paladins do this worse than any other class because of the huge limitiations their alignment and code have. In essence, they limit the game types and scenarios for a group more than any class. Boooooring.

That's why fighters rock. If a players says they have a fighter, I can run all sorts of scenarios.

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