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Paladin / Anti-Paladin = Fighter, Except Better? (Why play a Fighter then?)


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
a lot of things that didn't have anything to do with what I said, and then this bit:
Ashiel wrote:

It has nothing to do with logical provisions, or anyone being a jerk. It's just as logical to say that such things aren't easily available, in much the same way as it is logical to assume that just because one could afford a Tank (the armored cannon sort) that you can just go get one, or have one built for you, or have your car upgraded to a tank. Whatever the reasons (such as the NPCs having better things to do than devote their days working on your items, or intentionally coveting the good stuff, or knowing that such things are special and thus requiring additional motivation, whatever) not being able to just convert X gold into a +Y item does not make your GM a jerk.

I'm not generally the sort to complain about player entitlement, but instead of calling people jerks perhaps you should suck it up and deal with it. The rules are right there in the core rulebook. If your GM is running a standard game, then it's up to you to decide if you're alright with having ready access to +2 weapons but not +3, ready access to +3 armors but not +4, ready access to +4 stat and resistance buffs but not +5, and ready access to +2 deflection and natural armor buffs but not +3. Then you can your group can decide what you want to craft, or work on seeking such things yourselves.

The holy enchantment requires a spellcaster capable of casting 4th level cleric spells who also has the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat. That's it. Since 4th level spells are available in just about any small city and we were discussing a metropolis, I posit that the necessary personnel are fairly plentiful. As such, there has to be a very good reason why I couldn't find someone to enchant my sword if I have the gold on the barrelhead to pay for it. If I can't, and the GM hasn't provided a logical reason why (i.e., the town is cursed to make enchantments fail, the local tyrannical overlord strictly regulates magic item creation, etc.), then yes, I think he's being a jerk. This isn't player entitlement - it's violating my sense of verismilitude, because it makes me feel like there's an out-of-game reason why my logical, in-game action isn't working. If there's an obstacle in the way, the GM put it there.

And the tank comparison is more than a little off. The holy enchantment takes the work of one person for a little less than two and a half weeks, start to finish. If you can't see a substantive difference between that and what it takes to make a tank...

The Exchange

I actually think you both make fair points on purchasing of items, to be honest. It really comes down to game play at your table.

Shisumo, my group works the way you do, in essence. As DM, I look at what the purchase limits for a town is and allow players the chance to buy what they're after within that limit. This includes the ability to get someone to craft an item for you or add enchantment to your weapon.

As you say, it seems reasonable given how other items work.

However, Ashiels point is valid. If your GM runs a game where purchasing is more than hand waved ( there are rules for it in the book if you want to make it more detailed) then that's fair as well.

One of the reasons why debate rages so heavily on these boards is the difference in play styles that many groups have. This is why people use rules as written alone, but I tend to find that a tedious task, as it discounts almost all the reall applicAtions that we see in a game with a a GM.

I guess the best option is use the rules from PFS. If it appears in the mission as loot, then anyone can just buy it at the end of the scenario.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hey remember when this thread was about paladins and fighters and stuff? You know, before Ashiel derailed it with soapboxing on an unrelated topic?


Shisumo wrote:
The holy enchantment requires a spellcaster capable of casting 4th level cleric spells who also has the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat.

I'll see your 7th level cleric and raise you +5 to the DC on an adept or an expert with Master Craftsman. Which I think is what Ashiel is referring to when she talks about a 10th level smith, or equivalent.

(Besides, what it really requires is Craft Arms and Armor. Just because you have casters capable of casting Holy Smite doesn't mean you have casters who can cast Holy Smite and have Craft Arms and Armor.)

Silver Crusade

All I will say is I'm glad some of you post your types of games so I know to avoid them at all costs.

I will be quite honest when I say this. Out of all the years I've been gaming, I have never come across things that supposedly happen in some of your games. It really makes me wonder if these are actual games being played or is it just more theorycraft.


I think Robbie here might have a crush on Ashiel... Heh...

Anyway, I don't often say things like "this thread might as well end", but I think this' a good idea by now.

Not one new point has been made in the last 5 or so pages. And we had some great players/GMs/optimizers/role-players posting here.

Even Bob shared his opinions, and he most certainly knows a lot about Fighters (have I mentioned the Fighter builds he shared in this forum? They are quite awesome!)

Ashiel displayed his usual logical thinking and system mastery as well. And this time it didn't even involve genies and tarrasque-clones! (Don't misunderstand me, I do understand their point as an argument in the discussions they've been brought up, even if they seem like silly ideas sometimes)

But what do I know... I'm sure this will still go on for a few more pages before everyone loses interest or a mod simply closes the thread... I've seen it before. Hell, I've even being a judge in one of these before... And in my first week in this forum, at that... haha

Just so I stay in tune with the thread's mood:

Fighters and Paladins suck! COMMONERS ARE THE ONLY CLASS WORTH A DAMN! THEY EVEN HAVE PERCEPTION AS A CLASS SKILL! AND THEY HAVE FARMS TOO!

Marathon Voter 2014

Does...does this mean I don't get to keep the +3 sword?


Lamontius wrote:


Does...does this mean I don't get to keep the +3 sword?

No... But get a plain new +2 Vorpal Farm.

That's right! Not a farming tool... A farm!

Marathon Voter 2014

Swords to Plowshares!


I play Fighters because you don't have to micromanage their resources. You can focus on STR and CON (or DEX if that's your thing) and you've got all the Feats you'll ever need. A well-built Fighter is a joy to play from 1st level on up.

/make sure you have some arcane support backing you up.
// a traditional Healer-type Cleric makes a great companion as well.

Silver Crusade

I once had a gravedigger NPC who was a ranger and he used a +3 undead bane shovel.


I'll go one further and tell you that it doesn't even require a 7th level cleric with Craft Arms & Armor. Just a 5th level Adept who doesn't suck at his job. That part is pretty irrelevant. What IS relevant is that the moment you have to custom order something (which is in itself buying something, only you are purchasing it ahead of time) you are entering into the realm of if someone is willing to do so and what the GM specifically gives you. It's entirely fair to assume that finding someone to craft you goodies on demand isn't easy. Artisans spending 18 days crafting one item make money at the same rate as artisans spending 18 days crafting 18 items. It's clear that there is an economical trade of lots of lower level items, and the production of such items is clearly common. You're assuming a lot to suggest that you can easily just take money and go convert it into an item.

At the end of the day you are purchasing a magic item from somebody. Whether the item is available right now or later, it is a purchase. Purchasing magic items have their own rules. If all you needed was someone who could conceivably create the item, well why the heck are you complaining, there's probably someone in your own party. What? They're busy working on their own stuff? Hm. A 5th level adept can craft virtually every weapon in the core rulebook. The catch is if they have the time and inclination to do it for you, I suppose, rather than churning out lots of +1 swords which are clearly demanded about as readily as full-plate.

Which returns us to what I said before. You can reasonably be expected to purchase magic items within a certain value as part of the game. Anything that exceeds those rules is entirely between the player and what the GM decides is going on, and simply saying "There is nobody available that wants to take the job" is entirely fair to say. I myself would take it a step further and use it as a plot hook and call in a few favors from the PCs for the services of the NPC. You want a specific +3 equivalent weapon when such things are rare and valuable? You're going to do something for me. That might be anything from going to collect a particularly rare component to foiling my enemies to converting to my faith to delivering something to someone.

But it doesn't change it from being outside the normal rules, and it doesn't make your GM a jerk to say "Sorry, it's not available here" anymore than it makes your GM a jerk to say "Sorry, you can't get 8th level spells cast in this hamlet".

EDIT: Wow, chain-ninja'd. That's what I get for writing in multiple parts while putting up Christmas lights. :P

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have a rather large writing project I'm trying desperately to get finished, but I have actually been wanting to put up another fighter build and run it through the sample encounters that were given before, to point out some specific strengths of fighters that I think have gotten overlooked. I don't have time for it now, but if this thread is still going this weekend, I will probably do it then.

Marathon Voter 2014

So wait, you actually want me to go get the sword by doing something rad like killing a dragon or exploring a dungeon or making an ogre cry for his/her mommy?

Okay, let me go roll up a Fighter!


Lamontius wrote:


So wait, you actually want me to go get the sword by doing something rad like killing a dragon or exploring a dungeon or making an ogre cry for his/her mommy?

Okay, let me go roll up a Fighter!

You have fun with that. I know I do. :P


3 people marked this as a favorite.
shallowsoul wrote:
I once had a gravedigger NPC who was a ranger and he used a +3 undead bane shovel.

I hope he was THE gravedigger, and not merely a gravedigger. If some random gravedigger is also a Ranger whose tools happen to be +4 equivalent weapons, I don't ever, ever, ever want to hear you guys b#!!& about anything I ever write as being inappropriately powered in anything ever, ever again. :P


Weekly William's commision rule for exceeding GP limit. each of these rolls are per item and only work in a metropolis or larger.

Roll 1d10, pray you roll 3 or less on the d10. if you do, there is a willing crafter in the settlement beyond the GP limit of the area. this is for metropolises only.

if you get the 3 or less on the d10, you roll a diplomacy check to see if you can find a crafter capable of making the item you seek to buy. Dc is 20+the item's caster level.

you must also possess the masterwork (or already magical) item to be upgraded.

you must then make a second diplomacy check (20+item's caster level+crafter's charisma bonus) to convince the crafter to make the item.

you must pay both the full market price of the item, and an additional commisioning fee equal to 10% of the market price upfront

you must wait out the time in a local area (such as the same town) and fill out a commision form until the item has finished being crafted.

after waiting for the item, you have a specified agreed amount of time to pick it up, based on the time to craft it.


Nicos wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

Weekly William's commision rule for exceeding GP limit. each of these rolls are per item and only work in a metropolis or larger.

Roll 1d10, pray you roll 3 or less on the d10. if you do, there is a willing crafter in the settlement beyond the GP limit of the area. this is for metropolises only.

if you get the 3 or less on the d10, you roll a diplomacy check to see if you can find a crafter capable of making the item you seek to buy. Dc is 20+the item's caster level.

you must also possess the masterwork (or already magical) item to be upgraded.

you must then make a second diplomacy check (20+item's caster level+crafter's charisma bonus) to convince the crafter to make the item.

you must pay both the full market price of the item, and an additional commisioning fee equal to 10% of the market price upfront

you must wait out the time in a local area (such as the same town) and fill out a commision form until the item has finished being crafted.

after waiting for the item, you have a specified agreed amount of time to pick it up, based on the time to craft it.

So, the crafter would easily gain thousands of gold coins (he even dare to ask 10% more), and besides taht you have to almost pray for his help?

PC: hey dude I want to pay you so much gold that you basically would not have to work any other day of your life.

* Players rolling dices and fail.

Crafter: Sorry dude, I am just to charismatic.

a lot of the people who could do the crafting already have quite a lot of gold, don't really feel motivated to waste their free time on something they already have a lot of and don't really need, and feel they have more important things than adding thousands of gold to their near millions. the extra 10 percent commission fee is to represent getting the guy to waste his time crafting for you instead of you crafting the item yourself. he knows that such a powerful item is going to take a lot of time, the extra 10% is not for the item, it's for his time spent laboring on the damn thing.

Star Voter 2013

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

Weekly William's commision rule for exceeding GP limit. each of these rolls are per item and only work in a metropolis or larger.

Roll 1d10, pray you roll 3 or less on the d10. if you do, there is a willing crafter in the settlement beyond the GP limit of the area. this is for metropolises only.

if you get the 3 or less on the d10, you roll a diplomacy check to see if you can find a crafter capable of making the item you seek to buy. Dc is 20+the item's caster level.

you must also possess the masterwork (or already magical) item to be upgraded.

you must then make a second diplomacy check (20+item's caster level+crafter's charisma bonus) to convince the crafter to make the item.

you must pay both the full market price of the item, and an additional commisioning fee equal to 10% of the market price upfront

you must wait out the time in a local area (such as the same town) and fill out a commision form until the item has finished being crafted.

after waiting for the item, you have a specified agreed amount of time to pick it up, based on the time to craft it.

So, the crafter would easily gain thousands of gold coins (he even dare to ask 10% more), and besides taht you have to almost pray for his help?

PC: hey dude I want to pay you so much gold that you basically would not have to work any other day of your life.

* Players rolling dices and fail.

Crafter: Sorry dude, I am just to charismatic.

a lot of the people who could do the crafting already have quite a lot of gold, don't really feel motivated to waste their free time on something they already have a lot of and don't really need, and feel they have more important things than adding thousands of gold to their near millions. the extra 10 percent commission fee is to represent getting the guy to waste his time crafting for you instead of you crafting the item yourself. he knows that such a powerful item is going to take a lot of time, the extra 10% is not for...

You were too fast (or too slow?), I noticed that taht post did not contributed in anything so I erased it like 17 minutes ago. sorry for that.

Silver Crusade

shallowsoul wrote:
I once had a gravedigger NPC who was a ranger and he used a +3 undead bane shovel.

He was a unique NPC. The cemetery's occupants had a nasty habit of not staying in their places so the old ranger became a gravedigger to keep them under control.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Trying to figure out the 'fair' price of getting items enchanted is impossible.

That's why the rules clearly state the market price and assume there's enough competition for the task that people will do it.

Seriously, look at the LEVEL OF MONEY involved in making magic items. It involves spending 1000 gp PER DAY. That's years of income to common people, being spent in A DAY.

There's NEVER going to be enough gold to keep those with the skill to make magic items busy 24/7. Remember that half of that gold is outright CONSUMED and removed from the market by making a magic item, it doesn't go on and get recirculated.

Furthermore, the level of the person making the magic item is not taken into consideration on the tables. All that matters is if you can make the Spellcraft check, that's it. You can be 5th level, and if you can make the spellcraft check, pound out something requiring a 9th level spell.

Yes, someone who can make magic items COULD make a magic item every day. That costs them 500 gp/day. If nobody buys it, that's a huge amount of money tied up in something doing absolutely nothing...AND it's a major theft target.

In the real world, people who could make magic items would be clawing after active commissions, because it means a ready market, not tying up capital, and leaving something valuable around that could be easily stolen. The reason there's not hundreds of magic items of great value laying around is because of this problem of chasing gold.

In actuality, the tables for magic items are completely bonkers. We can easily extrapolate that every magic item costs 1/2 its market value just to make.

However, the skill of the crafter, and the effective caster level of the item, should also be figured into the price as a core part of it, and are not (esp for Arms and Armor).

The formula for making a magic item should be 500 gp/day required +x/level of final caster level/day. An item made at level 20, probably by an archmage, should cost more per day to make then something an apprentice could work out.

ON the flip side, if only the archmage can make that 200k item, that is 200 days of solid work for him, something a lower level crafter is unlikely to make over the course of the year, and DOES represent more income.

I posit that most magic item crafters spend their time making low value consumables and lesser items for considerably less then 500 gp/day, and would leap at the chance to make thousands of gold for the truly valuable items. No need to overcharge the players...500 gp/day IS a huge overcharge, if you think about it.

But, the system that is in place is there for ease of economics, NOT for real world realism. Don't overcharge the players, they are already being massively overcharged. for 500 gp/day, the crafters would be clawing at them for their business, not turning up their noses!

The ones who would be turning up their noses might be the master craftsmen who can hit DC's of 30+...except the only people who get paid fairly for such stuff are Performers. All massive skill does for normal people is allow them to make masterwork more quickly. Their masterwork sells the same as anyone else's, they can just turn it out faster.

==Aelryinth


shallowsoul wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
I once had a gravedigger NPC who was a ranger and he used a +3 undead bane shovel.
He was a unique NPC. The cemetery's occupants had a nasty habit of not staying in their places so the old ranger became a gravedigger to keep them under control.

So did he have the +4 shovel commissioned on his gravedigger salary, or did he trade in his possessions from adventuring to get a +4 shovel?

Actually, nevermind. It's not that important. It just boggles my mind that you guys seem to get up in arms because I follow the rules and don't expect there to be magic stores catering to my every whim on demand (especially when the core rules note larger settlements to only have about one or two purveyors of magical goodies), when you have random gravediggers who are apparently retired superheroes with shovels valued at over 32,300 gp. It appears we are operating on entirely different expectations of the world.

My tabletop game tends to be pretty tame. We use 15 point buy, and I use very little splatbook material. My NPCs use NPC wealth in all but the rarest of occasions (even the big bads). I'm open to players purchasing consumables of the appropriate values if its under the GP limit of a population center, and the same for non-consumables. I keep my game world as believable as I can where I think it matters, which includes having NPCs use items they are capable of using (which means you will see things like Rakshasa using wands, or a Marilith wielding better than masterwork swords or some masterwork studded leather made from fiendish animal skins). My games are "hard" but definitely do-able by standard 15 PB, medium XP, core classes, all the way up to the highest levels when you could be fighting swarms of demi-god powered foes.

So let's agree to disagree. I don't ever want to hear you guys mock me, or my games, or my acknowledgement of what is legal in core, and I'll not poke fun at your near 20th level NPC gravediggers and magic marts; and we cut down on the trash that clutters the forum. Everybody wins. (^-^)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Nobody said anything about you or your games until you decided to make walls of text about how anyone with a +3 weapon was cheating. If you don't want to discuss the issue, shut up about it.

Marathon Voter 2014

And give me back my sword!


Ashiel wrote:
So let's agree to disagree. I don't ever want to hear you guys mock me, or my games, or my acknowledgement of what is legal in core, and I'll not poke fun at your near 20th level NPC gravediggers and magic marts; and we cut down on the trash that clutters the forum.

But then what would we argue about? Come to think of it, what ARE we arguing about?

This thread started off as an ill-informed rant about how no one should play fighters because the OP thinks that paladins are mechanically stronger, no one cares about RP and that the Paladin Code isn't restrictive since it's how he plays anyways.

Since then we've wandered everywhere from the caster/martial disparity, to whether or not a charmed Ranger would use Favored Enemy on his own wizard and now crafting/WBL issues, apparently. Why should we cut down on the trash that clutters the forum? This thread is a microcosm of everything we simultaneously love and hate about the forums.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Why should we cut down on the trash that clutters the forum? This thread is a microcosm of everything we simultaneously love and hate about the forums.

Don't be ridiculous. We haven't even touched the subject of why all GMs are evil tyrants, why all players are entitled jerks, and why monks are underpowered. There's so much more this thread still needs to cover.

Marathon Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Guys guys guys...

...DPR.


Roberta Yang wrote:
Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Why should we cut down on the trash that clutters the forum? This thread is a microcosm of everything we simultaneously love and hate about the forums.
Don't be ridiculous. We haven't even touched the subject of why all GMs are evil tyrants, why all players are entitled jerks, and why monks are underpowered. There's so much more this thread still needs to cover.

You're right. Unarmed Fighter = Monk, Except Better? (Why play a Monk then?)

Let's see all the monk-apologists spring into action like ninjas.

#sarcasm


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Humphrey Boggard wrote:

You're right. Unarmed Fighter = Monk, Except Better? (Why play a Monk then?)

Let's see all the monk-apologists spring into action like ninjas.

#sarcasm

Don't be silly, it's the rogues who have become ninjas, not the monks.

Now, let me tell you about my new character. He's a dhampir paladin and

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lamontius wrote:


Guys guys guys...

...DPR.

Don't Post Rudely?


But my point remains simple, as far as this discussion goes. You cannot by the game rules assume that you can just go out and get a +3 equivalent weapon at 11th level. You just don't do it if you're following the rules. If you wanna house rule it, or run it differently at your table, power to you, but the core rules are pretty clear on the availability of magic items.

Which is why "well by that level you'll have a +4 weapon" does not cut it. You might have a +4. About the only thing you're guaranteed to have, however, is a +2 weapon. So when you can wield a +3, +4, or +7 equivalent weapon by virtue of your class then that is a nice benefit for your class. It's also one of the reasons the greater magic weapon spell is so useful and why I tend to learn it when I'm playing a wizard (it's a great contribution to our party's warriors to craft a high CL scroll of greater magic weapon for a rainy day when we need an extra edge, or at higher levels I can cast it myself and it will enhance them all day long).

It speaks volumes as to the value of spells like keen edge, disrupting weapon, and holy sword and even shillelagh. A few decent buffs can keep you functioning well even if traveling to a bigger city to get the good stuff early on hasn't been feasible (you can't even find full-plate on sale in communities smaller than a Large Town), and later on those buffs allow you to push beyond the limits with normal purchased gear.

This is another thing that I don't see the Fighter being particularly useful for. For the Fighter to excel in the damage that they deal, then they must overspecialize in a single weapon (barring a human specific feat that allows them to overspecialize in a single weapon group), leading Lumiere to note it as a trap. And it is pretty trappish; because the only way that you're guaranteed to get the weapons you want is to purchase them (up to +2 weapons) or craft them (which you need to burn a minimum of 2 feats on, which eats into the "I have lots of feats" argument harshly), hope the party casters picked up Craft Magical Arms & Armor, or find them on your enemies.

Now let's assume that 1 and 4 are the most likely method for you to acquire your goodies. Buying or looting, like in an RPG! So you're full out specialized in falchions (because everyone loves a falchion for DPR, right?). Except it seems the NPCs aren't really all that impressed with falchions. The ogres you've fought have wielded longspears (and bigger than your can handle at that), the darkfolk have been prancing around with shortswords and daggers. Those pesky drow really seem to love their rapiers and crossbows. That antipaladin succubus you encountered was wielding a +1 unholy lance. The medusa wasn't wielding any melee weapons but was decked out in some sexy light armor and using a shortbow with poisoned arrows. The last dude you looted a falchion off of was Captain Scurvy the Pugwampi Pirate and it was a small falchion. Crud. Well at least you didn't do something really stupid and spec an exotic weapon like a Falcata!

What's that, I hear you cry? The GM should modify the adventure to keep you relevant and useful? The GM must make NPCs and include treasure specifically for you? B*+!@@@%. If the world has to suddenly change and re-arrange itself to suit you, then you're broken, not the world.


Roberta Yang wrote:
Nobody said anything about you or your games until you decided to make walls of text about how anyone with a +3 weapon was cheating. If you don't want to discuss the issue, shut up about it.

No, I do want to discuss the issue. The issue is you cannot rely on getting the exact weapon you want if it is above +2 enhancement value in the standard core game. My interlude with Shallowsoul was merely a bi-product, and is complete now, and shouldn't be confused with the issue being addressed.

Marathon Voter 2014

Tell me more about the medusa and the pirate while I go grab the falchion out of that treasure chest over there.


Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
So let's agree to disagree. I don't ever want to hear you guys mock me, or my games, or my acknowledgement of what is legal in core, and I'll not poke fun at your near 20th level NPC gravediggers and magic marts; and we cut down on the trash that clutters the forum.
But then what would we argue about? Come to think of it, what ARE we arguing about?

Well, I've been discussing the particular strengths and weaknesses of the Fighter and Paladin. I feel one has more of one than the other (in fact I feel the Paladin has more strengths and less weaknesses). I was discussing something with Bob_Loblaw concerning buffs that improve weapons and such and then explained that in core you do not have easy access to magic items beyond a certain grade and cited my sources, which appeared to upset some people because you can just gnab some +5 weapons of awesome at your nearby population center. Leading me to believe that they are arguing from skewed perceptions of how the rules actually are and are taking their house rules into the argument, which is bad.

I demonstrated, pretty efficiently I think, the likelihood of finding the weapon you actually want in a metropolis. Without his weapon a Fighter is not very special. A Paladin on the other hand can turn a random stick on the ground (a club) into a +7 equivalent weapon that has continual magic circle against evil effect that can be resumed as a free-action if suppressed. And the Paladin has a long duration buff that allows him to carry around a +3 equivalent (or better) magic weapon throughout the day.

Then there is the fact that unlike the Fighter the Paladin can Craft Magic Items more efficiently. He can take Craft Wondrous at 7th, and Craft Magic Arms & Armor at 9th, and then produce whatever he wants in terms of major equipment.

Star Voter 2013

It was not demostrated a couple of fighter threads ago tht a fighter can just spend one extra feat and just craft the same as other classes?

Star Voter 2013

And besides if the PC X wants a +3 weapon, he could just go to a properous and notorious site

Prosperous: The settlement is a popular hub for trade. Merchants are wealthy and the citizens live well. (Economy +1; increase base value by 30%; increase purchase limit by 50%)

Notorious: The settlement has a reputation (deserved or not) for being a den of iniquity. Thieves, rogues, and cutthroats are much more common here. (Crime +1; Law –1; Danger +10; increase base value by 30%; increase purchase limit by 50%)

City-State of Intrigue
Base Value 27,200 gp; Purchase Limit 200,000 gp;

PS:
It amuse me how dificult is to a party to buy a +4 weapon yet all hamlets in the world have partial wands to cover like 70% of the spells in the CRB.

Marathon Voter 2014

Man, Ultimate Equipment doesn't have a picture of the Cavalier guy looking unhappily at a magic Wizard staff, on the cover.

There's a reason he's getting all grabby with that magic sword.


Lamontius wrote:


Tell me more about the medusa and the pirate while I go grab the falchion out of that treasure chest over there.

The Medusa is Latimoti the Ivory-haired witch. She is a medusa and rumor has it oracle (though probably not the oracle class). Her lair is filled with countless full-body mirrors arranged in a dark maze lit by filtered everburning candles, leading the place to have a dream-like quality. This is as much for the protection intruders as for herself, for she is a master of Stealth and will often converse with people through her many reflections while her true self remains unseen. Those who would do her wrong will find themselves looking upon her true form unexpectedly. Though she has no ill-will against the party immediately and will bargain for her services, she carries a masterwork composite shortbow for those who would end her because of what she is. The stone-headed arrowheads are coated in her own venom which she collects and stores (and may sell if asked). She doesn't keep those she petrifies, and instead sells them off while disguised as a human artist by the name of "Filia" to keep them from crowding her abode.

Captain Scurvy the Pugwampi Pirate is the scourge of the seas. Captain Scurvy is a Pugwampi Ranger 3 / Warrior 3 / Adept 1 with favored enemy Human and favored terrain Water. He leads a vessel of other pugwampii and gnolls across the ocean, and uses his impressive oceanic skills to navigate the dangerous waterways where his hidden cove is located. Unlike most captains he actually leads his crew from the other ship! He finds a ship he wishes to steal and then plans with his first mate Garlax the Blue-Eyed Gnoll as to the ship's intended route. With this knowledge, Captain Scurvy boards the vessel intended to be stolen and hides amongst the ship with his incredible Stealth skills, sometimes even hanging from the railing near the ship's steering wheel where nobody will notice him.

Once his first mate arrives by ship, the aura of unluck almost assures that the navel affair will be a quick and one-sided one. When terrible things go awry, ships are beached, or won't turn fast enough, the gnoll and pugwampi crew quickly take the vessel. With the pugwampis flooding the ship, any resistance is both short lived and futile. Captain Scurvy then mingles with his crew dressed as a simple pirate to appear as one of the other namless Pugwampi. Garlax has life-boats manned for the victims and ensures that no one is killed if not necessary (because dead merchants won't do more trading to be robbed), and typically the ship is taken as loot as well. Scurvy and Garlax have a pretty profitable venture going on and are inseparable since they were as pups. Most of their goods are sold through illegal trading channels and secret pirate canals governed by the Ogre Magi Oathkeeper who ensures the pirates maintain some order in their haven for the benefit of them all. Such items are then exported back to more mundane markets where the thieves' guild sells them in their front-businesses. Meanwhile, the thieves' guild has spies which alert to plans to exterminate pirates and pass on the information to their conspirators so they won't get caught.

There you go. Will that do for now?


Nicos wrote:

It was not demostrated a couple of fighter threads ago tht a fighter can just spend one extra feat and just craft the same as other classes?

No, it was not.


Nicos wrote:

And besides if the PC X wants a +3 weapon, he could just go to a properous and notorious site

Prosperous: The settlement is a popular hub for trade. Merchants are wealthy and the citizens live well. (Economy +1; increase base value by 30%; increase purchase limit by 50%)

Notorious: The settlement has a reputation (deserved or not) for being a den of iniquity. Thieves, rogues, and cutthroats are much more common here. (Crime +1; Law –1; Danger +10; increase base value by 30%; increase purchase limit by 50%)

City-State of Intrigue
Base Value 27,200 gp; Purchase Limit 200,000 gp;

PS:
It amuse me how dificult is to a party to buy a +4 weapon yet all hamlets in the world have partial wands to cover like 70% of the spells in the CRB.

That is if you're using the optional and non-core settlement rules in the Gamemastery Guide, which is fair but it's not standard by any means, anymore than insanity is standard.

As to your comment about partially charged wands, beat up and/or used stuff gets passed around a lot in reality. Secondhand markets where lost, stolen, or traded goods are sold and exchanged would naturally be popular. The fact you can so readily sell off partially charged wands demonstrates there is a clear market or such, and that market would be larger than those seeking fully charged wands because they are more cost effective; much like buying a used car. You go to a used car lot and you can find tons of makes and models, and when you're in a world where magic is wielded as weapons, armor, and toolbelts, and is cheaper than a horse, it's not surprising to think that there is a booming trade for it.

And that's before we simply accept that it is the rules, just like light radius and falling damage.


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Lamontius wrote:


So wait which one has the sword?

Captain Scurvy the Pugwampi has a +1 human-bane tiny-sized falchion.

EDIT: He has a 7 Strength (-2), but he gets +2 to hit due to being tiny, and he typically preys on humans (as they seem to love this seafaring thing). His attack routine vs humans is +13/+8 (1d4+3+2d6/18-20/x2).
EDIT 2: He can also cast bless on him and his allies (and sometimes does so if they will be facing heavy resistance), which adds a +1 bonus to hit and saves vs fear, bringing his total attack routine to +14/+9 vs humans. However, he usually uses his mwk shortbow (1d3 damage) and Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot. His attack routine with that is something like +15/+15/+10 (1d3+4/x3) against humans.
EDIT 3:

"By da sea witch, get a move on ye lads, for ye are Scurvy's Sea-Dogs an' we be invicibal!" - Shouted when Scurvy casts bless as part of the verbal component.

Star Voter 2013

Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:

And besides if the PC X wants a +3 weapon, he could just go to a properous and notorious site

Prosperous: The settlement is a popular hub for trade. Merchants are wealthy and the citizens live well. (Economy +1; increase base value by 30%; increase purchase limit by 50%)

Notorious: The settlement has a reputation (deserved or not) for being a den of iniquity. Thieves, rogues, and cutthroats are much more common here. (Crime +1; Law –1; Danger +10; increase base value by 30%; increase purchase limit by 50%)

City-State of Intrigue
Base Value 27,200 gp; Purchase Limit 200,000 gp;

PS:
It amuse me how dificult is to a party to buy a +4 weapon yet all hamlets in the world have partial wands to cover like 70% of the spells in the CRB.

That is if you're using the optional and non-core settlement rules in the Gamemastery Guide, which is fair but it's not standard by any means, anymore than insanity is standard.

As to your comment about partially charged wands, beat up and/or used stuff gets passed around a lot in reality. Secondhand markets where lost, stolen, or traded goods are sold and exchanged would naturally be popular. The fact you can so readily sell off partially charged wands demonstrates there is a clear market or such, and that market would be larger than those seeking fully charged wands because they are more cost effective; much like buying a used car. You go to a used car lot and you can find tons of makes and models, and when you're in a world where magic is wielded as weapons, armor, and toolbelts, and is cheaper than a horse, it's not surprising to think that there is a booming trade for it.

And that's before we simply accept that it is the rules, just like light radius and falling damage.

A pc go hamlet of 50 people and he expect to encounter 70% of all CRB spells in the form of wands, and not only taht but the wands have to have the excat charge so your low level Pc can buy it.

This is not only ludicrous but hardly raw nor RAi and certainly not standar.

PS: I still do not see how you identify when a rule is a rule and when is a variation. Clearly crafting non listed items is houserule and you state that is what the Devs intended, like +1 belt of strengh (even when the DEv appear and stated that it was not the RAI).


Nicos wrote:
A pc go hamlet of 50 people and he expect to encounter 70% of all CRB spells in the form of wands, and not only taht but the wands have to have the excat charge so your low level Pc can buy it.

If you don't like it change it in your games. RAW, you are 75% likely to find any magic item with a value of X or lower. Like it or not, partially charged wands have value. You might not find the one you want, but the chances of finding one you want to use are pretty good.

Quote:
Clearly crafting non listed items is houserule

Except it isn't. There are clear rules for it, and guidelines for doing so. Some of it could be abused, but then again some listed magic items can be abused. Item creation is a core part of the system and it's not a house rule. However the GM is free to Veto anything they don't like whether it is from the Core Rulebook or elsewhere. I myself Veto the ioun stone that provides continual flame from the Advanced Players Guide because IMHO it's too cheap (it's cheaper than you can even have continual flame cast, cheaper than an everburning torch, and because it's a wondrous item it cannot be dispelled).

Instead of arguing against me, why don't you argue against the points I've made? I've shown you in standard with no optional rules in play that something is true. Now it's your turn to prove that the Fighter has a way around this that doesn't involve GM fiat. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Star Voter 2013

@ Ashiled, I noticed how you state the rules when it helps your argument and then you say you are using strictly RAW.
but when you do not have proof for something then you make a lehgthy dissertation of how usseful and reasonable it would be.

If you can not find a quote that explicitily supports Pcs buying partial wands in small villages then your claim is not RAW.

(There is not partial wands listed in the tables)

Star Voter 2013

Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
A pc go hamlet of 50 people and he expect to encounter 70% of all CRB spells in the form of wands, and not only taht but the wands have to have the excat charge so your low level Pc can buy it.

If you don't like it change it in your games. RAW, you are 75% likely to find any magic item with a value of X or lower. Like it or not, partially charged wands have value. You might not find the one you want, but the chances of finding one you want to use are pretty good.

Quote:
Clearly crafting non listed items is houserule

Except it isn't. There are clear rules for it, and guidelines for doing so. Some of it could be abused, but then again some listed magic items can be abused. Item creation is a core part of the system and it's not a house rule. However the GM is free to Veto anything they don't like whether it is from the Core Rulebook or elsewhere. I myself Veto the ioun stone that provides continual flame from the Advanced Players Guide because IMHO it's too cheap (it's cheaper than you can even have continual flame cast, cheaper than an everburning torch, and because it's a wondrous item it cannot be dispelled).

Instead of arguing against me, why don't you argue against the points I've made? I've shown you in standard with no optional rules in play that something is true. Now it's your turn to prove that the Fighter has a way around this that doesn't involve GM fiat. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Crafting non listed item is subject to DM approval (DM Fiat as you call it) so it is a Houserule.

Marathon Voter 2014

Seriously just a cover with the sorceress and the oracle in the middle of a treasure hoard staring at a magic bastard sword, looking totally unhappy, while some person with "GM" written on their tunic is just laughing in the background.

"Ultimate Equipment 2.0"

Star Voter 2013

All whe have so far is that crafting Paladins are better in tsome "Standar and totally RAW" games, taht not much people seems to play.


Nicos wrote:

@ Ashiled, I noticed how you state the rules when it helps your argument and then you say you are using strictly RAW.

but when you do not have proof for something then you make a lehgthy dissertation of how usseful and reasonable it would be.

If you can not find a quote that explicitily supports Pcs buying partial wands in small villages then your claim is not RAW.

(There is not partial wands listed in the tables)

PRD wrote:
There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community.
PRD wrote:

Many items, particularly wands and staves, are limited in power by the number of charges they hold. Normally, charged items have 50 charges at most (10 for staves). If such an item is found as a random part of a treasure, roll d% and divide by 2 to determine the number of charges left (round down, minimum 1). If the item has a maximum number of charges other than 50, roll randomly to determine how many charges are left.

Prices listed are always for fully charged items. (When an item is created, it is fully charged.) For an item that's worthless when its charges run out (which is the case for almost all charged items), the value of the partially used item is proportional to the number of charges left. For an item that has usefulness in addition to its charges, only part of the item's value is based on the number of charges left.

In much the same way you might be able to find a single +1 arrow arrow for sale in a hamlet, but not a quiver. Arrows are constructed as a group of 50, but may be sold in lesser stacks than 50, and thus may be bought in lesser stacks than 50, merely because the value of a +1 arrow is within the town.

Okay, now as you were saying about the Fighter?

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That doesn't say you can buy them, though, man. Just how much they're worth if you find them in a treasure.

Yes it's logical, and yes you can probably do it in most games, but partially-charged wands being available for sale is just as much houseruling as commissioning items is. (That is, the rules don't explicitly cover it, but they tell you how much it would cost if they did cover it, it's logical it would be available, so you can do it = perfectly valid and supportable houserule.)


Nicos wrote:
Crafting non listed item is subject to DM approval (DM Fiat as you call it) so it is a Houserule.

Which is both only your assertion and completely irrelevant.

Quote:
All whe have so far is that crafting Paladins are better in tsome "Standar and totally RAW" games, taht not much people seems to play.

So you admit that when you're actually following the rules then Paladin is better off? Don't feel bad. It happens ALL THE TIME. I mean, think of the countless threads where people over estimated something because someone wasn't following the rules. I mean, archers are super duper stupidly doopidly powerful if you ignore limitations like the -4 for shooting into melee without a feat, or the +4 to AC from soft cover (which includes your allies), etc. Same with ranged touch spells like scorching ray. Not following the rules often makes classes or options seem more grandiose than they are.

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