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Paladin / Anti-Paladin = Fighter, Except Better? (Why play a Fighter then?)


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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"I order you to attack [party member] to the absolute best of your ability."


Aratrok wrote:
"I order you to attack [party member] to the absolute best of your ability."

Ok, so Rangers definitely will use instant enemy.


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If they have it, I'd assume so. Paladins would smite their target if it was evil, etc. Dominating sucks for everyone, but some people are more resistant to it.


Aratrok wrote:
If they have it, I'd assume so. Paladins would smite their target if it was evil, etc. Dominating sucks for everyone, but some people are more resistant to it.

yeah, but not rangers and that was the original claim.

rangers are more resistant against dominate (false)
Dominated rangers are not that big threat (false)


Aelryinth wrote:
Using an archetype means you're pigeonholing the fighter into a specific build. That hardly addresses all fighters. So, no, I'm not counting archetypes for fighters anymore then I do for paladins.

I'm not pigeonholing anything. The fighter still has all the same bonus feats (for the most part). He loses a few special abilities but maintains the flexibility with the build. Very little changes unless you want specific options like real mobility or better damage with two-handed weapons or mental protections. You can bring in any paladin archetype you want for the discussion. To me, they are still paladins so they are all fair game.

Quote:
A fighter investing in a 12 Int is gimping other stats.

Because you and I apparently have vastly different views on what "gimping" means, the rest of the argument becomes null and void. Honestly, 2 points into Intelligence isn't gimping anything. Even in 15 points buy. I've proven this more than once in the past. I have no intention on tossing out more builds. You know I only use the elite array so I'm even more locked into numbers than others.

Quote:
As for the paladins, they have magic weapon, weapon bond, and possibly GMW to give them more killing power in combat. These bonuses easily keep right up with fighter weapon training. This will generally mean they are only slightly behind the fighter at neutral combats, while absolutely rocking on the evil ones...and evil ones are more frequent, not less, as you level, esp the BBEG. And such abilities don't cost them any gold to quaff, either.

How often can the paladin use those abilities? Let's take a look, shall we?

Smite Evil: Level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19. Not every battle but certainly more often as he levels.

Divine Bond (assuming weapon and not mount): Level 5 (5 minutes). Level 9 (9 minutes), level 13 (13 minutes), and level 17 (17 minutes). That's 4 times per day at level 17. Nothing says that these can be broken up like other abilities do so he can't do it all the time.

GMW? He probably won't be casting that until level 11 or so. Even then, how often can he rely on that? He only has it once per day at that point.

You can't assume anything about the enemy. That would be GM fiat.

Quote:
The paladin has weaknesses, sure. the problem is, the fighter has all of those weaknesses, too, and then a whole boatload more, without having any real advantages to go with them.

Just because you don't like the advantages of the weapon training and armor training and fighter only feats doesn't mean that the fighter doesn't have any real advantages. The fighter also doesn't have a "boatload" more disadvantages. The only real disadvantage is his Will save which is easily dealt with.

I want to make it very clear that I don't think the paladin is a bad class. I think it's a great class. I just don't think that it's significantly better than a fighter. I think that it can be better in some situations. I also think that a fighter can be better in other situations. I will say that in the last campaign I ran (The Age of Wyrms), the paladin player was very unhappy with her paladin while the two fighters were very happy with theirs. This was from level 1 through level 6 or so. The paladin player left the group for non-gaming reasons and someone else took over her character and liked it. The class isn't for everyone.


Nicos wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
If they have it, I'd assume so. Paladins would smite their target if it was evil, etc. Dominating sucks for everyone, but some people are more resistant to it.

yeah, but not rangers and that was the original claim.

rangers are more resistent against dominate (false)
Dominated rangers are not that big threat (false)

I think Rangers and Fighters both have similar issues concerning will saves, barring that Rangers are generally rewarded more generously for having decent Wisdom scores. I even would say they're pretty dangerous to your party, because frankly they aren't much different than fighters in terms of offense (nor is the Paladin). In fact, if we have an undead party member one of my rangers is almost certainly going to be incredibly dangerous to him (most of my rangers will have FE: Undead and undead die at 0 HP so that's scary for a PC). However, we forgive the Ranger because while he has a fairly weak will save he gets...

6 + Int modifier skill points and an awesome skill list.
2 Good Saves + Evasion and Improved Evasion in Medium or lighter armor.
1 Minion who helps control crowds and protect other PCs or aid them.
4 levels of highly useful spells (including the option to immunize vs poison, resist energy damage, foil tracking attempts, move 30 ft. in medium or heavy armor all day long, avoid CC effects, travel, control the battlefield, and just outright fight better).
6 excellent bonus feats that all ignore prerequisites.
+ A variety of useful minor effects like +2 Initiative in broad-environments, woodland stride, camouflage, hide in plain sight, and favored enemy (up to a +10 to hit and damage vs your favorite enemy, which in turn gives you "ranger smite" via favored enemy as a swift action).

I threw together a build, jokingly, that competently preforms at everything from melee combat to archery to mounted combat to a variety of skills, lots of dipped skills, and tanking, which was a Ranger 20 build and even found room to drop Improved Unarmed Strike and Deflect Arrows into the build as a joke. They're pretty darn versatile, and they bring a TON to the party.

Then if you want to argue splat material, well, we've got what you need. Yes, we can forgive the Ranger. :P


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
GMW? He probably won't be casting that until level 11 or so. Even then, how often can he rely on that? He only has it once per day at that point.

I'm not trying to get between you and Aelryinth's discussion but this kind of stuck out to me, so I thought I'd mention it...

Greater magic weapon lasts all day long. At the level you'd get it, it'd last 8 hours with a single casting and grant a +2 enhancement bonus to your weapon of choice. That's pretty cool since it means you can enjoy +2 to hit and damage all day long. If you have the option to buy a magical +2 sword, you can instead get something like a +1 merciful sword and then cast greater magic weapon to be walking around with a +3 equivalent weapon all day long. This is assuming we're not talking bonus spells (Paladins only need a 16 Charisma by 10th level or so to get bonus 3rd level spells, and 18 Charisma nets a bonus spell for all levels). The spell continues to scale as you gain levels, which is great for games without high-level magic marts (core game assumes anything beyond a +2 weapon is not easily available), and the option to take weapon effects like merciful or keen on your weapon and then up the ante with greater magic weapon allows you to have a high enhancement weapon on the cheap.

The fact Arcane Bond stacks is icing on the cake really, but honestly while greater magic weapon is cool, I'm more in love with holy sword which turns any weapon at all into a +5 holy weapon. That is really cool. You just drop a +7 equivalent weapon onto whatever weapon you need at the time (need a reach weapon? Holy sword on your lance. Need a slashing weapon? Holy sword on...your sword! Need an adamantine weapon? Works on your trust adamantine dagger! How about silver, or cold iron? Also +7 equivalent weapons!).

Unlike magic weapon and similar spells, holy sword does not have a clause preventing it from bypassing DRs, so by casting holy sword on an item you're getting an actual +5 holy weapon that pierces virtually all forms of damage reduction, emanates a powerful magic circle against evil continuously, and deals +2d6 damage vs evil foes. This spell is so awesome that purchasing scrolls of it for 1,300 gp is something I've seen low level parties do, because it's just that awesome when you need it (if each PC drops in a bit of cash it's about the cost of a 2nd level potion for each).

And y'know what's hilarious? It also stacks with Divine Bond if that's your thing. It won't stack with other spells, but it will stack with Divine Bond. So you can crank that puppy up if you just really want to lay down the godsmack on some fool. :P


Ashiel wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
GMW? He probably won't be casting that until level 11 or so. Even then, how often can he rely on that? He only has it once per day at that point.

I'm not trying to get between you and Aelryinth's discussion but this kind of stuck out to me, so I thought I'd mention it...

Greater magic weapon lasts all day long. At the level you'd get it, it'd last 8 hours with a single casting and grant a +2 enhancement bonus to your weapon of choice. That's pretty cool since it means you can enjoy +2 to hit and damage all day long. If you have the option to buy a magical +2 sword, you can instead get something like a +1 merciful sword and then cast greater magic weapon to be walking around with a +3 equivalent weapon all day long. This is assuming we're not talking bonus spells (Paladins only need a 16 Charisma by 10th level or so to get bonus 3rd level spells, and 18 Charisma nets a bonus spell for all levels). The spell continues to scale as you gain levels, which is great for games without high-level magic marts (core game assumes anything beyond a +2 weapon is not easily available), and the option to take weapon effects like merciful or keen on your weapon and then up the ante with greater magic weapon allows you to have a high enhancement weapon on the cheap.

The fact Arcane Bond stacks is icing on the cake really, but honestly while greater magic weapon is cool, I'm more in love with holy sword which turns any weapon at all into a +5 holy weapon. That is really cool. You just drop a +7 equivalent weapon onto whatever weapon you need at the time (need a reach weapon? Holy sword on your lance. Need a slashing weapon? Holy sword on...your sword! Need an adamantine weapon? Works on your trust adamantine dagger! How about silver, or cold iron? Also +7 equivalent weapons!).

Unlike magic weapon and similar spells, holy sword does not have a clause preventing it from bypassing DRs, so by casting holy sword on...

GMW is probably only going to be needed when the paladin is without a magic weapon in the first place which is going to be rare. It's certainly a good spell to have but it doesn't do anything other than give an enhancement bonus to hit and damage. The paladin should have a +2 weapon by level 11.

Bonus spells are hard to discuss since I have no idea what the paladin would be looking at for Charisma. I am assuming that he has the minimum necessary to cast his spells which might net him some bonus spells anyway.

I'm not sure where you're getting that the game assumes anything over +2 isn't readily available. I haven't seen that anywhere.

I've already said divine bond is great but remember that you are limited to how often you can use it. You are assuming a level 17 paladin if you're dropping a +5 bonus on the weapon. That's pretty high level there. It's certainly nice and when you do that while smiting, you're pretty much ending the encounter. It's a great thing. I won't deny that in the slightest.

However, the fighter can dish out a ton of damage at that level as well and if build properly, can deal some decent damage before the enemy gets in range and then switch to melee and continue to deal decent damage once the enemy gets in range (assuming he is built to do so). And he can do so consistently. He doesn't need to use a standard action to activate the divine bond, a standard action to cast GMW, and a swift action to smite (we're talking round three before damage is dealt from the paladin). The fighter can start on round 1.


Holy Sword requires a level 13/14 paladin and bestows +7 equivalent bonus, I'm sure that's what Ashiel's referring to.

Divine Bond at higher levels can last for most of a dungeon, unless you're playing it really slow with a trapfinder taking 20 on each square or something; 10+ minutes is a really long time.

The maximum available item value in a metropolis is 16,000 gp, which means +2 weapons (+3 cost 18,000 gp). The only ways to get a higher enhancement bonus on a weapon is to craft it, find it, or have it randomly show up through settlement item generation.


Wow, our adventures take more than 10 minutes in a dungeon. My players push themselves as long as they can. If that means they go 8 hours, they go 8 hours. That could also be why I see different results from classes than others. My group plays differently.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Wow, our adventures take more than 10 minutes in a dungeon. My players push themselves as long as they can. If that means they go 8 hours, they go 8 hours. That could also be why I see different results from classes than others. My group plays differently.

Funny how on the boards the more expendable resources a class has (and it's corresponding ability to go NOVA) the better people think it is.

I'm playing in two different games. In one the GM allows us to rest frequently and my Samurai is nigh-unstoppable because he can spend challenges/resolve/honor-in-all-things willy-nilly. In the other the GM usually has scenarios that don't allow us to rest much and my fighter is the one character in the party that is always ready to rock.

If you were to switch them between campaigns I don't think either would be as good.


What's really interesting is that I don't put that pressure on my group. They put it on themselves. They ask themselves how much farther they can go. I just sit there.

Qadira

Bob, I've DM'ed 3 complete campaigns to level 20 now over the course of a number of years. What I found was the campaigns, especially at higher levels, all ended up being timed based on the casters running out of spells, and not the fighting types.

The combat types all invested in their own wands of cure whatever for between combat healing, most of them had gear to shore up their weaknesses. Those were dependent on the campaign of course (two were homebrew based of amalgamating dungeon modules, one was Age of worms and we also played legacy of fire to level 16).

The pathfinderisation of the fighter changed them amazingly for Age of Worms (which we were half way through when the beta and then the full rules came out). They were far more powerful, and the players were in heaven (We had two fighters in that campaign).

The casters got nerfed a bit, but not so much it impacted high level play. They still ran out of spells faster than the martials ran out of things to do.

*****

The discussions on these boards are often held in a vacuum. I almost never find the experience at my games, or the games of others I speak to in my area who also play, match what the folks on these boards complain about. It effectively comes down to the organic nature of real life gameplay and campaign development compared to theory crafting.

It's usually around the point when I state that experience at the table doesn't show the same thing people are seeing, that the folk arguing start saying my players and I aren't playing intelligently enough to see the differences.

At this point, it's probably time to step away and realise that theory crafting has its fans, and player exerience has its own set. Very rarely do the two overlap (Though Ashiel seems to be one where the overlap happens).

Having said all of that, as was discovered above, there may still be rules held over from 3.5 that are colouring our experience. I do regularly talk to people from three other Pathfinder groups though, and none of them find the issues mentioned in these threads popping up either.

******

Now for some real life experience with Paladins:-

I played a Paladin in one of my friends games, but he (the paladin) ended up dying (around level 7). The general consensus around the table was "Thank the gods". We roleplay our characters pretty well, and often group discuss what a character may do in a situation based on alignment and background. It works well for us, and we all agreed the Paladin sucked much fun from our gaming because of his handicaps (re alignment and code)

For this reason, and this reason alone, I and most of the folks I game with or communicate with, feel the fighter is a far better class than a Paladin.


no rule says a paladin can't use archery or a polearm to gain a reach advantage against his foes

no rule says a paladin cannot sneak around and ambush his foes to reduce the harm to his allies

no rule says a paladin cannot coup de grace a sleeping baddy in the middle of the night to save his allies from danger

no rule says a paladin cannot employ guerrilla warfare tactics of any kind to gain the upper hand

no rule says paladins cannot flank, utilize terrain based advantages, or utilize his allies to gain an upper hand either.

no rule says a paladin cannot benefit from buffing himself, benefit from being buffed by an ally or benefit from debuffed enemies to gain an upper hand

no rule says a paladin cannot trip his foes, disarm them or sunder their weapons to gain an upper hand either

and no rule says a paladin cannot coup de grace a paralyzed or pinned enemy who dare oppose his comerades.

in other words, not even the paladins' code negates the above actions and not a single one is dishonorable. all is fair in war. and paladins are holy knights on a crusade against evil.

Qadira

No one said they were Luminere ( though the coup de gras options you mentioned would be debated at our table a while I think.)

What the Paladins code often does is impede the style of play other characters can do. When one character impacts on many, it's not very effective. That is the experience myself and many others have had with Paladins, and is why we feel fighters do a better job of that role in general.

Note, this is a not in combat situation. This argument seems to have been all about pure maths in combat, but as many people point out, combat is only part of the game. Sure it takes up most of the rules, but in general it only accounts for 60% od a campaign. In an average game, that's about an hour of game time where the Paladin can be negatively impacting the way other players wish to run their characters or approach a situation to avoid upsetting the Paladin.

Paladins are great in combat, particularly against evil enemies. They are only better out of combat if the other players in the group are willing to play along with his code. If you have that type of group then yeah, take the pally. Most characters don't gel like this though. Check though the PbP boards to see what I mean.

Cheers


Wrath wrote:

No one said they were Luminere ( though the coup de gras options you mentioned would be debated at our table a while I think.)

What the Paladins code often does is impede the style of play other characters can do. When one character impacts on many, it's not very effective. That is the experience myself and many others have had with Paladins, and is why we feel fighters do a better job of that role in general.

Note, this is a not in combat situation. This argument seems to have been all about pure maths in combat, but as many people point out, combat is only part of the game. Sure it takes up most of the rules, but in general it only accounts for 60% od a campaign. In an average game, that's about an hour of game time where the Paladin can be negatively impacting the way other players wish to run their characters or approach a situation to avoid upsetting the Paladin.

Paladins are great in combat, particularly against evil enemies. They are only better out of combat if the other players in the group are willing to play along with his code. If you have that type of group then yeah, take the pally. Most characters don't gel like this though. Check though the PbP boards to see what I mean.

Cheers

the only things forbidden in the paladin's code are Lying, Evil activities, and the use of Poison. a paladin can still omit details, or embelish stories to decieve, use recognized legal drugs, threats, or intimidation to interrogate, behead useless prisoners that are too low to redeem, and coup de grace sleeping foes before they harm your allies.

Qadira

Killing prisoners is evil, unless they've gone through a court of law ( the lawful part of paladin alignment) .

Omitting detail blurrs very quickly into lying in the real world.

Embellishing, in oder to deceive, is known as lying.

Killing someone while helpless and not attacking you is murder, which is illegal and therefor breaks the lawful part of the alignment.

Every one of those you pointed out would cause debate at a table. All for one PC.

A fighter can do all of those with no recourse to mechanical punishment, except perhaps an alignment change.

Debating actions at a game table is not fun, especially when it happens every session because a character is there.

This is why fighters rock compared to paladins.


It sounds like your problem with paladins is your own very narrow moral compass, not the class or code itself.

The only way a paladin makes things less fun for his group is if he tries to- Lawful Stupid isn't the norm, it's a term making fun of bad paladin players.

Qadira

(sigh) And as predicted, I am now called a bad player.

For your own edification, you should read the codes and tenets of the good aligned gods in Golarian. They are explicit and binding. It seems to me that people find Paladins fantastic because they are too loose with their interpretations of lawful, and good.

Of course, that is exactly the problem with the paladin, so I thank for displaying my case for me. People have vey different ideas about what it means to follow the code or not. Thus the debate at the table. Thus the cessation of fun for a number of players.

This is why fighters rock compared to paladins.

Qadira

In furtherence to my point,

I've run a number of campaigns on the boards here, in the PbP section. One of the last ones I ran I decided to allow a Paldin character in the game. He was well made, had a great background and I new the player already as an excellent PbPer.

At the start of that campaign I had to very clearly spell out that other characters had to be mindful of their actions in order not to cause rifts with the two lawful good characters we had, particularly given the possible consequences for the Paladin.

This was done because we were a group of strangers playing from across the world over the exageratedly slow medium of internet message board. The potential for some form of break down in character relationship is very high normally, but gets even more excessive with the limitations of Lawful Good Paladin.

The game was great. The players were great. However, I had to make sure it stayed nice and even had to cater certain situations so as not to alienate the Paladin in terms of difficult choices to make. I tend to run campaigns where the shades of grey are thick in terms of motivations for the protagonists. Paladins are fairly black and white by nature so don't fit the games many of the folk I know like to play.

In the other...three I think... campaigns I've run here, I didn't have Paladins and didn't have to outlay any rules for party interraction (other than don't be a deliberate jerk).

If you have a group of players who can happily work within the bounds of a Paldins alignment and code, then Pally's are great.

If you don't, then take the fighter cos he does the job just as well without all the emotional baggage.

BTW, Lawful Stupid is applied to any character played as a dick by their Lawful Alignment, it's not limited to Paladins. You get Chaotic Stupid too. I've never seen neutral stupid, but I'm willing to be proved wrong on that one.


I'm not calling you a bad player. I'm saying that if you've had experiences that put you off from paladins so badly, you must have played with bad players.

Paladins are not quite so limited as you say. They can't be evil, must respect legitimate authority, be honorable, help people, and punish active evildoers. Basically things that the heroes are doing anyway, code or not.

Nowhere in that code are they told "don't do things the smart way", or "always announce your presence" or other such hyperboles that get thrown around here. A paladin can be sneaky, a paladin can be intelligent, and despite common belief, a paladin can perform chaotic acts within reason (they only fall if they perform willing evil).

And if the PCs aren't the heroes of the story... why would you want to play a paladin anyway? You might as well play some other class. Maybe an antipaladin- their code is "do whatever you want."

Qadira

What constitutes evil?

How many chaotic acts can be performed before you find yourself no longer Lawful, and therefore not a Paladin. To be a paladin you must be both Lawful and Good.

What is a dishonorable act?

When does punishment cross the line?

At what point are you meant to stop trying to help folk, and start punishing them?

Who determines the legitimacy of the authority? Are we democratic, theocracy, autocracy? What type of rule becomes non legitimate?

All of these are questions that everyone in the group must be fully aware of if a Paladin is there. The problem of course is that not every situation will give the same answer to everyone at the table.

If you're playing black and white campaigns, fine. If your playing anything with shades of grey, then Paladin beware.

The fighter doesn't come with that caveat.

And I must say that my group walked away from every hero is a good guy many many years ago. Read David Gemmel, or the Thomas Covenant books, or Game of Thrones, or some of the latter Raymond E Feist books and you'll understand people can be the heroes of a story, but not Good.

Cheers


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


the only things forbidden in the paladin's code are Lying, Evil activities, and the use of Poison. a paladin can still omit details, or embelish stories to decieve, use recognized legal drugs, threats, or intimidation to interrogate, behead useless prisoners that are too low to redeem, and coup de grace sleeping foes before they harm your allies.

That is very debatable

Lie:" 1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression"
not to mention it could be described at acting without honor.


Aratrok wrote:

And if the PCs aren't the heroes of the story... why would you want to play a paladin anyway? You might as well play some other class. Maybe an antipaladin- their code is "do whatever you want."

nop. antipaladin code is restrictive too.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Mark Sweetman wrote:

Using the Paladin codes in Faiths of Purity as a guideline only. I give you the following:

Code of Torag wrote:
I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others.
So by Golarion fluff - a Paladin of Torag is able to lie assuming it's needed to serve his people.

Reposted from earlier in the thread.


Well, I like the dungeons very much. So I thought I'd try my hand. I'm not all up on the statistical averages and everything, but I can throw out my build and general tactics and you all can tell me if it works or not.

I was a little loose with the "fighter" interpretation of the challenge. Martial warrior? Sure. Mostly fighter? Sure. Mostly bonus feats with a smidgeon of class features? Sure. Straight fighter? No. I think Fighters in Pathfinder are very much their opposite from 3.5 in that they're the ones that benefit greatly from a level or two dip here and there for synergistic bonuses, where it used to be the opposite. I hope I still qualify.

Warrior McKiller, the Pragmatic

Spoiler:

He dipped his 2nd and 3rd levels in Monk, and then returned to his fighter roots. With the archetype chosen, this gives him the saves he should have, limited unarmed ability which he should have, the class skills he should have, and more feats. Monk AC bonus? Irrelevent, though its nice should he be caught without his armor, which should be never with spells like Bed of Iron and Keep Watch. With the Sash of the War Champion he is none the worse for the wear. That item is the Bee's Knees. If feel that between it and Gloves of Dueling, Paizo is given the go ahead to multiclass virtually every Fighter between 1-4 levels.

LE :p Human (Dual Talent) Fighter 6/Monk (Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 2

AC 27 (+11 armor +2 Dex +1 Natural +1 Enhance Natural +1 Dodge +1 Deflection)/touch 14
HP 68 (5d10 Fighter + 2d8 Monk + 16 Con + 8 Toughness)

Str 22 base 16 +2 race +2 level +2 item
Dex 15 base 13 +2 race
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 14
Cha 7

Weapon Training (Monk)

Atk +15/+10 (1d8+10) Temple Sword
Atk +14/+9 (1d6+7) Unarmed Strike
Atk +10/+5 (1d8+6) Bow...Eh

Fort +14
Ref +9
Will +11 (+3 vs fear)

6 Ranks Fighter + 4 Ranks Monk + 6 Favored Class
Acrobatics +8 (+9 vs jump)(3 ranks)
Climb +8 (1 rank)
Perception +18 (8 ranks)
Survival +6 (1 rank)
Swim +10 (3 ranks)

1 Iron Will
F Power Attack
M Improved Unarmed Strike
M Stunning Fist (4/day - DC 16)
M Dodge
3 Great Fortitude
M Combat Reflexes
M Toughness
F Crane Style
5 Mobility
F Blind-Fight
7 Deadly Aim
F Combat Patrol

Mwk Temple Sword 330
+2 Fullplate 5,650
+2 Cloak of Resistance 4,000
Sash of the War Champion 4,000
Ring of Protection +1 2,000
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 2,000
Belt of Strength +2 4,000
Boots of Springing and Striding 5,500
Eyes of the Eagle 2,500

Silk Rope 100 ft 20
Arrows (200) 10
Blunt Arrows (100) 10
Cold Iron Arrows (100) 20
Silver Arrows (100) 30

Heavy Wooden Shield 7 (back up AC buff)
Mwk Mighty (+6) Composite Longbow 1,000
Climbing Kit 50
Healer's Kit 50
Tanglefoot Bag (8) 400 (2 given to each of the other 3 party members)

Scroll of Remove Fear 25 (Given to someone that can use it should the unlikely happen)
Oil of Align Weapon 300
Oil of Magic Weapon (2) 100
Potion of Cure Light Wounds (8) 400
Potion of Expeditious Retreat (2) 100
Potion of Lesser Restoration x6 300 (Made by a Paladin. I knew they were good for something. ;))

223 gp left for incidentals

Crypt of the Mummy Lord

Spoiler:

Part 1: He sees the trap. He avoids the trap. He tells everyone else to avoid the trap. In the evident of falling in, Warrior climbs out and shoots the Cube to death.

Part 2: Yeah, the Command Undead or Hide from Undead thing. In any case, the fighter can outrun them to fight another day.

Part 3: Now what's the size of this room? I assume he gets charged by the mummies, and they get their licks in. He makes his saves against their fear effect. If not, someone has to waste an action using the Remove Fear scroll on him, quickly. Warrior tells the party to hold and throw their tanglefoot bags at the mummies after he moves away, then run down the hall and wait for him (not the most heroic, but this is about saving resources right?). The fighter sets up a Combat Patrol, lets the mummies waddle over to him (the ones that can move). He trips them as they approach. He steps up and full attack with Power Attack/Crane Style (1d8+16/AC 31). He AoOs them when they stand up. He withdraws to another section of the room or down the hall. They waddle after him (entangled or not, he's still faster than them). He sets up another Combat Patrol. Rinse/Repeat.He just stands and finishes them once there are fewer of them/they are suitably roughed up. Heals himself with potions/heal checks/light healing from the party healer.

Part 4: Again, unless the unforeseeable happens on the first round, the fighter closes his eyes and stands there swinging (rerolling the miss chance) at them until they die.

Part 5: This is the bastard one. There is a chance Warrior can spot it though when it peeks out right before it attacks (it does need to know where we are in the room, but it does have a huge stealth check). The fighter takes his licks here too. Crane Style to boost his touch AC to 18. Have to use an oil of magic weapon to hurt it. He encourages magical arrows from the party to be shot at it, and perhaps a Magic Missile or two (preferrably two). He will stop and drink potions of lesser restoration if it gets too hairy. I kind of think this is the toughest challenge for me in the dungeon as the rest of the party will be going all out on the Mummy Lord.

Part 7: The fighter will make sure that a tanglefoot bag is thrown at the mummy to lower his AC and reflex save for the spell blasters. His Remove Fear scroll will probably need to be used on someone in this fight. The cleric Invisibility Purge after the Mummy Lord uses Invisibility the first time. Warrior sets up Combat Patrols between the mummy lord and the party casters where he can at least attempt to trip it (I calculate a 28 CMD maybe -2 from the tanglefoot bag) so that it can't hit them with touch attack spells and slams. They blast away at it, I assume. That's that.


The Valley of God-Hates-Paladins
Spoiler:

Part 1: Seeing the dread gazebo from even further away, and being informed by the party knowledge font of its dire properties, Warrior McKiller orders the rest of the party away, and drinks his potion of Expeditious Retreat. He then begins the rain of arrows from a hefty distance letting the gazebo come to him while the party makes their escape. When finally in range, he hits it with a Tanglefoot bag (notice pattern). At half-speed the gazebo cannot keep up with the fighter, who after taking run actions, continues the rain of arrows, with intermitten run actions. It is a slow process, and he may need another potion of Expeditious Retreat until he finishes it off, and rejoins the party.

*Grappling it with the party's help was probably the better plan, but I would have never thought to have attempted it. So I came up with this instead.

Part 2: Again, seeing it from even further away. Warrior's handy sage informs him of what they are, and blunt arrows are produced to finish these slimy foes from afar. Much like the last fight, but no potions needed, and the party doesn't have to get that far away. They've made knowledge checks. They're participating.

Part 3: Party throws Tanglefoot bags at slugs, 'cause why not? The fighter pulls out his shield and walks up to them forcing them to provoke if they want to move around or make ranged attacks. Power Attack/Crane Style and he wails on them for rounds. Party wastes a Summon Monster II or the like to create flanking dogs and diversions for the pitiful number of attacks the slugs make a round. It takes a long time, but with arrow support, he finished them off as well.

*Slugs can't be tripped.


That's that. I think I got through both adventures expending a comparable amount of party resources to the example paladin. I know it may seem Warrior McKiller is a bossy fighter, but that's really his job. Fight Coreographer. And, I am assuming that he has a near perfect party backing him up (i.e. an obedient one). Now, I'm not sure about all the statistics and everything, but just comparing some numbers it looks plausible for this to come out O.K. If someone knows them, I would like to find out what they were. I'm curious to know how much I may be overvaluing Tanglefoot bags, Combat Patrol, trip, speed, attrition, etc.

Again, I'm not really sure why everyone here is comparing straight fighters to paladins. Paladins by the nature of their abilities should not multiclass, but the fighter, especially with the items I mentions can retain all his class features and readily dip into classes that give him a wide array of other powers. A charismatic fighter for instance could take two levels of ninja get some ki points/sneak attack/class skills that he wants. Or that same charasmatic fighter could *gasp!* dip into Paladin for two levels and get the saves to charisma, all without hurting his own abilities. I think the paladin would be making a mistake to interrupt his progression for anything. YMMV


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I really like your Fighter/Monk Company Man.

A few things I wanted to point out.
1) Potions of expeditious retreat are illegal (personal spell).
2) Tanglefoot bags do not work on the Gazebo (too large).
3) Tanglefoot bags don't work against the slugs (too large).

Gotta love monk dips though. 2 levels granting +3 to all saves, a variety of class skills including Perception, and a lot of bonus feats, and all you really lose is 1 BAB and 2 HP. Indeed, such a grand and desirable dip. You don't even have to stay lawful. Fighters are good dips too. I built a monk in another thread that was a Barbarian 2/Weaponmaster 3/Master of Many Styles X. Scary character that one.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
GMW is probably only going to be needed when the paladin is without a magic weapon in the first place which is going to be rare. It's certainly a good spell to have but it doesn't do anything other than give an enhancement bonus to hit and damage. The paladin should have a +2 weapon by level 11.

Ah, but you see the Paladin can wield a +2 weapon by 11th level (though he can be casting GMW at 10th if his Charisma is 16 or better). The catch is the Paladin isn't going to be wielding a +2 enhancement bonus. Instead, you get something nice like defending, ghost touch, merciful, vicious, keen, spell storing, bane, or an elemental weapon (or with the addition of splat material, psychokenetic is pretty decent). Then you add on the Paladin's +2 enhancement from greater magic weapon which overlaps the +1 enhancement, giving you a +3 equivalent weapon (such as a +2 vicious weapon.

Quote:
Bonus spells are hard to discuss since I have no idea what the paladin would be looking at for Charisma. I am assuming that he has the minimum necessary to cast his spells which might net him some bonus spells anyway.

By 10th level a 16 Charisma is pretty effortless. My Paladin had one at 8th in the sample Paladin I posted. Paladins get a ton of mileage out of Charisma. A great Paladin will have Charisma at least secondary if not prime, and it's possible to reach 30 Str / Cha at 20th in 15 PB by 20th level.

Quote:
I'm not sure where you're getting that the game assumes anything over +2 isn't readily available. I haven't seen that anywhere.

As Aratrok pointed out, the core rulebook in the Magic Item section notes and explains the availability of magic items. Anything over 16,000 gp is not available in the standard game unless it happens to be one of the randomly generated settlement items. If I wanted a +1 holy longsword (a +3 equivalent weapon), I'd need to go to my friendly neighborhood population center and hope they have such a thing floating around their economy. Now to put this into perspective, a Metropolis has 4d4 medium magic items, and 3d4 major magic items, which are set apart from the 16,000 gp limit.

So let's see what the odds of getting my +1 holy longsword is.
Taking the average rolls, we have 10 medium and 7 major magic items. So now we test to see what kind of magic items they are using the random generation presented on the same page for determining random magic items.

There is a 10% chance that the Medium magic items will be a weapon (11-20). So just going by averages, we'll assume that one out of those 10 medium magic items happens to be a weapon. Carrying on!

Now it's time to randomly generate what kind of weapon it is. Statistically There's a 10% chance it's just another +1 sword. A 19% chance that it is a +2 weapon. A 28% chance it's a +3 weapon. A 5% chance it is a specific weapon. And a 31% chance that it is has a special ability and to roll again for additional strengths.

So assuming you get your 31%, what is your odds of getting the holy ability? 2%. No joke. 2%. 85-87 on a d%. GOOD LUCK! And then you don't even know if it's a longsword. In 3.x they had a random chart for what sort of weapon it was, but it seems mysteriously absent from the page in Pathfinder, so I guess the GM can figure his own way to randomly determine it in his own games or use the 3.5 chart found here.

But just to go a step further and save you the trouble, I'd like everyone to check out this really nifty Pathfinder Random Item Generator that generates items for communities using the PF standards for magic item generations. Everyone take a few minutes to set it to metropolis and see how long it takes you to get a +1 holy longsword specifically to pop up, because that's the weapon that we want.

I've generated it 10 times and no such luck thus far.


I got a Holy Mace of Smiting on #19, the only weapon so far.


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Brambleman wrote:
I got a Holy Mace of Smiting on #19, the only weapon so far.

Keep trying! We need that longsword so that we can use our weapon training and specialization! Maybe if we scour 100 metropolises before nightfall we'll find one! Wizard, prepare nothing but teleport spells and tongues, for we will need to scour the marketplaces across the world from Cheliax to Xan Tia and back again!


Ashiel wrote:
Brambleman wrote:
I got a Holy Mace of Smiting on #19, the only weapon so far.
Keep trying! We need that longsword so that we can use our weapon training and specialization! Maybe if we scour 100 metropolises before nightfall we'll find one! Wizard, prepare nothing but teleport spells and tongues, for we will need to scour the marketplaces across the world from Cheliax to Xan Tia and back again!

That's Metropolis 1, vendor 19. We might not have to Plane Shift!


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+5 inherent bonuses to all stats for the entire party for free as soon as you hit eleventh level: standard for every campaign to the point where it should be assumed when judging class balance.

Ever having a weapon with a +3 enhancement bonus ever: cheating, and it should be assumed that nobody ever has one of those.

Do you people actually play this game?


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40 and counting
On #7, there was a briliant energy luck blade with a wish, just buy it and wish for "holy"
#23, vicious spell storing sword of the planes of speed,
On the plus side, #4 had a well of many worlds, we can keep searching all day!
#25 another luck blade with a wish.
Passing up WAY more interesting weapons, like the throwing sword of sutblety, and the ghost touch, shocking burst throwing sunblade.
We should take one of the luck blades, or the totally awesome rapier of puncturing and call it a day.


Roberta Yang wrote:

+5 inherent bonuses to all stats for the entire party for free as soon as you hit eleventh level: standard for every campaign to the point where it should be assumed when judging class balance.

Ever having a weapon with a +3 enhancement bonus ever: cheating, and it should be assumed that nobody ever has one of those.

Do you people actually play this game?

Calm down. You can get +5 inherent bonuses to two primary stats at level 20 with tomes and wishes just as easily. No need to attack people personally.

Cheliax

I sometimes wonder what percentage of players are consistently involved in games with characters over level 10.


Hey, at city #46, I found a man selling a +3 Holy mithral longsword for 52,015. It's in your size too!

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ooooooooooor, waaaaaay back at city #1, you went to the local temple to Torag and commissioned one the priest-smiths there to enchant your longsword with the holy enchantment for the low low price of 16K gp.

Or at least, that's what I did. But your mithral one is nice too.


Shisumo wrote:

Ooooooooooor, waaaaaay back at city #1, you went to the local temple to Torag and commissioned one the priest-smiths there to enchant your longsword with the holy enchantment for the low low price of 16K gp.

Or at least, that's what I did. But your mithral one is nice too.

Thus begins the questing. Time to convince some people to take time out of their schedule to craft you something. Perhaps they want something more than gold pieces. Otherwise what you're describing is buying a magic item. Magic items follow rules on what is available to buy. So now it's a matter of negotiation. A custom order, something that is firmly in the realm of ifs and maybes. No certainty as to when you're going to get it, if they have backup orders, or if they will ask you to prove your worth or faith. Perhaps they send you on a quest to prove that this item of great power will not go to waste, or fall into the wrong hands; etc.

Yes, we can create NEW avenues of availability via GM fiat and plot, but being serious here, unless you've got some friends in high places ready and willing to craft you items, your party best be ready to do it themselves, or be willing to jump through any hoops asked. They might grant your request, or they might not. They might ask that you do a service for them in addition to paying them.

On a side note, the cost of a +1 holy weapon is a minimum of 18,300 gp. Not 16,000 gp (if it was 16,000 gp you'd be able to reasonably find one without any special fiats involved).


Brambleman wrote:
Hey, at city #46, I found a man selling a +3 Holy mithral longsword for 52,015. It's in your size too!

Hm, ouch. That's an awesome weapon (+5 equivalent), but can we afford to buy it? Maybe if the party chips in. Unfortunately, if you're 10th level, that's almost the entirety of your WBL. Same for 11th level. It's about 50% of 12th level. Time to break open the penny bank and see what we've ferreted away. :P


Roberta Yang wrote:
+5 inherent bonuses to all stats for the entire party for free as soon as you hit eleventh level: standard for every campaign to the point where it should be assumed when judging class balance.

Who said free? It's only free if you have a wizard in your party. Though if you have a wizard in your party of that level, castles are free too.

Quote:

Ever having a weapon with a +3 enhancement bonus ever: cheating, and it should be assumed that nobody ever has one of those.

Do you people actually play this game?

Damn strait I do. If you want to buy magic items worth more than 16,000 gp you'd best be ready to go out of your way to do it. Either you'll craft it or quest it. I don't assume that you can just go to the land of Anyplace and the city of Anywhere and turn 200,000 gp in to a holy avenger, or assume everyone is walking around with +3 weapons.

The best way to find such things in my games is, again, either crafting them yourself (yourself can include helpful party members, 'cause we <3 each other) or questing for them. Do some favors, rescue somebody, explore something, rub somebody out, guard something, do-something. You're not getting your Hanzo sword just by throwing gold about. You're walking up to the top of the highest hill in the land, where the old 10th level swordsmith resides, and he'll put you through a test to see if you're worthy of his artistry.

Or you can do normal questing sorts of things and loot what you find. Outsiders tend to have double and triple treasure values (ghaele azatas range from +3 to +5 weapons) so you might be able to loot some sweet stuff off particularly high CR enemies, but only if your GM actually allows those NPCs to use their treasures. If they just burst into gold pieces and gemstones, good luck, time to find a crafter again.

It's one of the reasons I don't put stock into a holy avenger even though that's one of the most amazingly awesome weapons in the game and is specifically for Paladins. Problem is, it's so damn expensive that you're not going to find the thing anywhere unless the dice gods love you, because it's not something you're going to find on some wandering enemy. So unless you're going to craft it yourself, then you're probably not getting it. Of course, Paladins can take Craft Magic Arms & Armor at 9th level, so perhaps you may indeed, but it's going to require more effort than slapping a merchant with a bag of emeralds. :P

Cheliax

Man just wish for it, it's cool.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Saying, "You can't get that commissioned" is every bit as much GM fiat as saying you can, however. It is clearly the case the spellcaster services are available for sale; there's a chart for it in the book and everything. Why would magic item enchantment or creation be any different? And it's not that there's no opportunity cost to differentiate it from just buying it, which is where the magic item tables come in; there is a substantial time delay, which might or might not make it feasible. As a general rule, though, denying magic item commissions when the locale should logically provide the resources is, at best, your GM being kind of a jerk.

Ashiel wrote:
On a side note, the cost of a +1 holy weapon is a minimum of 18,300 gp. Not 16,000 gp (if it was 16,000 gp you'd be able to reasonably find one without any special fiats involved).

The cost to improve a +1 longsword to a +1 holy longsword, though, is only 16,000 gp.


Lamontius wrote:


Man just wish for it, it's cool.

Wish can't do that anymore. You're thinking of 3e.

Cheliax

It can, it's just dangerous.


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This last discussion is ludicrous. I can not find a +3 almost in no place of earth but smalls villages have a full repertory of partially charged wands for sell.

@ Does anyone would make another scenario*, because I think that is the only thing in this thread that have served for something.

A PFS style scenario would be appreciated.

Qadira

Mark Sweetman wrote:
Mark Sweetman wrote:

Using the Paladin codes in Faiths of Purity as a guideline only. I give you the following:

Code of Torag wrote:
I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others.
So by Golarion fluff - a Paladin of Torag is able to lie assuming it's needed to serve his people.
Reposted from earlier in the thread.

Yep, but they're the only ones who can lie, and only if it's defending their people (ie dwarves)

None of the other gods have that one.


Lamontius wrote:


Man just wish for it, it's cool.

Yeah, wish doesn't give you magic items.

Shisumo wrote:
Saying, "You can't get that commissioned" is every bit as much GM fiat as saying you can, however. It is clearly the case the spellcaster services are available for sale;

First off, I didn't say you can't get it commissioned. That's entirely up to you and your GM and their world. What I did say is that it's not as simple as simply buying it unless your GM specifically makes it so (such is not assumed). Also, spellcasting services being available has pretty much nothing to do with item creation or upgrade services being available (you don't even need high level casters to produce magic items, as low-level adepts are more than capable).

Quote:
there's a chart for it in the book and everything. Why would magic item enchantment or creation be any different?

It's not any different. There's a chart that gives the values of each, but with that chart are rules that says you usually cannot find services based on community size. You need a small town for 1st level spells (villages, hamlets, and thorps only support up to 0 level spellcasting services), large town for 2nd level spells, small city for 3rd-4th level spells, large city for 5th-6th, and a metropolis for 7th-8th; and then goes on to note that you can't normally find 9th level spellcasting services in even a metropolis. Much in the same way that we have values for magic items but notes explaining that many of them are not readily available.

In much the same way you do not march into even a metropolis and upgrade all your gear to +5 equivalents, you do not march into a small town and expect people to cast 3rd level spells for you. It just isn't available unless there is something special and outside the standard assumptions for the rules going on.

Quote:
And it's not that there's no opportunity cost to differentiate it from just buying it, which is where the magic item tables come in; there is a substantial time delay, which might or might not make it feasible. As a general rule, though, denying magic item commissions when the locale should logically provide the resources is, at best, your GM being kind of a jerk.

It has nothing to do with logical provisions, or anyone being a jerk. It's just as logical to say that such things aren't easily available, in much the same way as it is logical to assume that just because one could afford a Tank (the armored cannon sort) that you can just go get one, or have one built for you, or have your car upgraded to a tank. Whatever the reasons (such as the NPCs having better things to do than devote their days working on your items, or intentionally coveting the good stuff, or knowing that such things are special and thus requiring additional motivation, whatever) not being able to just convert X gold into a +Y item does not make your GM a jerk.

I'm not generally the sort to complain about player entitlement, but instead of calling people jerks perhaps you should suck it up and deal with it. The rules are right there in the core rulebook. If your GM is running a standard game, then it's up to you to decide if you're alright with having ready access to +2 weapons but not +3, ready access to +3 armors but not +4, ready access to +4 stat and resistance buffs but not +5, and ready access to +2 deflection and natural armor buffs but not +3. Then you can your group can decide what you want to craft, or work on seeking such things yourselves.

These are considerations I make when I'm playing the game. When I was challenged to posting builds, these are the rules that I have followed. When I'm making a character to play in a game, I'm well aware that I'm not going into a Monty Haul where +4 amulets fall out of the sky and we all get +1 vorpal weapons by 15th level. I'm well are that unless I go some extra mile I'm not going to get a +5 cloak of resistance over a +4 cloak of resistance, and I'm perfectly willing to tote about a variety of handy +2 weapons or +1 bane weapons for different occasions.

Cheliax

Nah, I'll just deal with the danger with my new +3 sword.


Lamontius wrote:


Nah, I'll just deal with the danger with my new +3 sword.

Pardon?

Shadow Lodge

Ashiel wrote:
Lamontius wrote:


Nah, I'll just deal with the danger with my new +3 sword.
Pardon?

I think Lamontius is off in a corner having a conversation with someone that the rest of us are oblivious to.


Serum wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Lamontius wrote:


Nah, I'll just deal with the danger with my new +3 sword.
Pardon?
I think Lamontius is off in a corner having a conversation with someone that the rest of us are oblivious to.

Oh okay. (^-^)"

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