paizo.com Recent Posts in Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?paizo.com Recent Posts in Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?2017-07-28T11:37:25Z2017-07-28T11:37:25ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Benrislovehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#192017-07-28T11:37:25Z2012-12-07T02:25:29Z<p>related: Toppling spell metamagic and spell spec. My opinion is that "level variable effects" is only number of dice/missiles/targets, duration, and range. But it seems a consensus would be a challenge to come to.</p>
<p>So I'm going to ask this question(s) and FAQ request it.</p>
<p>Does Spell Specialization effect the following things?
<br />
Concentration Checks?
<br />
Overcoming spell resistance?
<br />
Toppling spell?
<br />
Difficulty to Dispel?</p>
<p>i'm currently leaning towards no on all of them, but I'd like it to be yes :D</p>related: Toppling spell metamagic and spell spec. My opinion is that "level variable effects" is only number of dice/missiles/targets, duration, and range. But it seems a consensus would be a challenge to come to.
So I'm going to ask this question(s) and FAQ request it.
Does Spell Specialization effect the following things?
Concentration Checks?
Overcoming spell resistance?
Toppling spell?
Difficulty to Dispel?
i'm currently leaning towards no on all of them, but I'd like it to be yes :DBenrislove2012-12-07T02:25:29ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Seraphimpunkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#182012-11-05T05:27:42Z2012-11-05T05:27:42Z<p>verses other feats/abilities that say they increase the caster level for that spell/school. </p>
<p>also, a dev would usually look at the list of what's affected by the caster level ( spell penetration, that stuff i quoted before ). and say "is it listed as allowed or listed as something that changes? then it probably doesn't change".</p>verses other feats/abilities that say they increase the caster level for that spell/school.
also, a dev would usually look at the list of what's affected by the caster level ( spell penetration, that stuff i quoted before ). and say "is it listed as allowed or listed as something that changes? then it probably doesn't change".Seraphimpunk2012-11-05T05:27:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Ascalaphushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#172012-11-04T13:28:25Z2012-11-04T13:28:25Z<p>Hmm. Reading the feat again, it does spell out rather clearly that it gives a bonus to "level-variable effects", and those are mostly the "interior" parts of the spell; not the outside effects (dispel difficulty, SR penetration, concentration).</p>
<p>Although this does lead to the odd situation where specialized Dispel Magic (probably) gains a bonus to the caster level check to dispel something, but other specialized spells don't get a caster level bonus to resist dispelling.</p>Hmm. Reading the feat again, it does spell out rather clearly that it gives a bonus to "level-variable effects", and those are mostly the "interior" parts of the spell; not the outside effects (dispel difficulty, SR penetration, concentration).
Although this does lead to the odd situation where specialized Dispel Magic (probably) gains a bonus to the caster level check to dispel something, but other specialized spells don't get a caster level bonus to resist dispelling.Ascalaphus2012-11-04T13:28:25ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Sitrihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#162012-11-04T07:02:49Z2012-11-04T07:02:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Seraphimpunk wrote:</div><blockquote><p> yeah, but caster level is listed clearly as determining your concentration check. so its hard to say when to draw the line for caster level effects and whether they effect concentration. </p>
<p>looking at shivok's list again , based on wording i'm more inclined to think that next time yeah, i'd allow some of them based on wording, to effect concentration checks. </p>
<p>spell specialization i looked again at the wording and says
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.</blockquote><p>so it sounds like it only does change the level dependent stuff for the spell.
<p>things like the orange prism ioun stone just flat raise your caster level.
<br />
if you had multiple caster levels like some aforementioned half fiend drow sorcerer cleric, all the concentration checks would probably increase by one caster level. </p>
<p>Its hard to read the intent of the developers on this, since sometimes the wording on the ability is it increases level dependent parts of the spell, and sometimes its just flat caster level. =/ </p>
<p></blockquote><p>I think this is much more clear than many rules. EFFECTS of the spells are things that happens because of the spell, it is on the back end of the casting. Concentration checks AFFECT whether or not a spell works, it is on the front end of the casting. The act of casting is where you draw the line. Those two words have been muddled since post one.Seraphimpunk wrote:yeah, but caster level is listed clearly as determining your concentration check. so its hard to say when to draw the line for caster level effects and whether they effect concentration.
looking at shivok's list again , based on wording i'm more inclined to think that next time yeah, i'd allow some of them based on wording, to effect concentration checks.
spell specialization i looked again at the wording and says
Quote:Treat your caster level as being two higher for all...Sitri2012-11-04T07:02:49ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?wraithstrike (alias of concerro)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#152012-11-04T06:40:22Z2012-11-04T06:40:22Z<p>Concentration is not a variable affect of a spell. Only certain spells have variable affects.</p>Concentration is not a variable affect of a spell. Only certain spells have variable affects.wraithstrike (alias of concerro)2012-11-04T06:40:22ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Seraphimpunkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#142012-11-04T05:46:51Z2012-11-04T05:46:51Z<p>yeah, but caster level is listed clearly as determining your concentration check. so its hard to say when to draw the line for caster level effects and whether they effect concentration. </p>
<p>looking at shivok's list again , based on wording i'm more inclined to think that next time yeah, i'd allow some of them based on wording, to effect concentration checks. </p>
<p>spell specialization i looked again at the wording and says
<br />
[quot]Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.</blockquote><p>so it sounds like it only does change the level dependent stuff for the spell.
<p>things like the orange prism ioun stone just flat raise your caster level.
<br />
if you had multiple caster levels like some aforementioned half fiend drow sorcerer cleric, all the concentration checks would probably increase by one caster level. </p>
<p>Its hard to read the intent of the developers on this, since sometimes the wording on the ability is it increases level dependent parts of the spell, and sometimes its just flat caster level. =/</p>yeah, but caster level is listed clearly as determining your concentration check. so its hard to say when to draw the line for caster level effects and whether they effect concentration.
looking at shivok's list again , based on wording i'm more inclined to think that next time yeah, i'd allow some of them based on wording, to effect concentration checks.
spell specialization i looked again at the wording and says
[quot]Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable...Seraphimpunk2012-11-04T05:46:51ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?wraithstrike (alias of concerro)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#132012-11-04T04:26:13Z2012-11-04T04:26:13Z<p>No it would not work. It only applies to variable aspects of a spell that work off of caster level.</p>
<p>As an example fireball deals in damage dice related to caster level so you would be able to get additional damage dice. </p>
<p>If a spell similar to fireball had set dice that varied by caster level then the feat would not do anything for that spell. </p>
<p>Basically you have to look to see which parts of the spell would be affected that and that vary depending on the caster level.</p>No it would not work. It only applies to variable aspects of a spell that work off of caster level.
As an example fireball deals in damage dice related to caster level so you would be able to get additional damage dice.
If a spell similar to fireball had set dice that varied by caster level then the feat would not do anything for that spell.
Basically you have to look to see which parts of the spell would be affected that and that vary depending on the caster level.wraithstrike (alias of concerro)2012-11-04T04:26:13ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Ravingdorkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#122012-11-04T04:04:41Z2012-11-04T04:04:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ascalaphus wrote:</div><blockquote><p> It doesn't say that it does affect concentration; it also doesn't say that it doesn't affect it.</p>
<p>Personally, I'd let it affect it; keep everything that alters caster level working in the same way: affecting everything based on caster level. Keep it simple, for sanity.</p>
<p>It also isn't difficult to justify on the flavor side. You've specialized in this spell, so you're better at concentrating on this spell than on other spells of the same level. </blockquote><p>Agreed. Any other interpretation makes things difficult as you don't really know when and where to draw the line. Best keep it simple.Ascalaphus wrote:It doesn't say that it does affect concentration; it also doesn't say that it doesn't affect it.
Personally, I'd let it affect it; keep everything that alters caster level working in the same way: affecting everything based on caster level. Keep it simple, for sanity.
It also isn't difficult to justify on the flavor side. You've specialized in this spell, so you're better at concentrating on this spell than on other spells of the same level.
Agreed. Any other...Ravingdork2012-11-04T04:04:41ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Ascalaphushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#112012-11-04T03:56:29Z2012-11-04T03:56:29Z<p>It doesn't say that it does affect concentration; it also doesn't say that it doesn't affect it.</p>
<p>Personally, I'd let it affect it; keep everything that alters caster level working in the same way: affecting everything based on caster level. Keep it simple, for sanity.</p>
<p>It also isn't difficult to justify on the flavor side. You've specialized in this spell, so you're better at concentrating on this spell than on other spells of the same level.</p>It doesn't say that it does affect concentration; it also doesn't say that it doesn't affect it.
Personally, I'd let it affect it; keep everything that alters caster level working in the same way: affecting everything based on caster level. Keep it simple, for sanity.
It also isn't difficult to justify on the flavor side. You've specialized in this spell, so you're better at concentrating on this spell than on other spells of the same level.Ascalaphus2012-11-04T03:56:29ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Ravingdorkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#102012-11-04T02:34:09Z2012-11-04T02:34:09Z<p>But it does set a precedence for caster level effecting things beyond the spell. The omission of Concentration was likely just an oversight.</p>But it does set a precedence for caster level effecting things beyond the spell. The omission of Concentration was likely just an oversight.Ravingdork2012-11-04T02:34:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Seraphimpunkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#92012-11-04T01:42:48Z2012-11-04T01:42:48Z<p>this might apply</p>
<p>Magic Section on Caster Level
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).</blockquote><p>it doesn't mention Concentration as one of the variables that an adjustment applies to.this might apply
Magic Section on Caster Level
Quote:In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
it doesn't mention Concentration as one of the...Seraphimpunk2012-11-04T01:42:48ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Seraphimpunkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#82012-11-04T01:35:20Z2012-11-04T01:35:20Z<p>I said I made a ruling at the table during the game. That doesn't mean my mind is made up about it. If I made the ruling in error, and someone knows a specific that'll handle this corner case, I'd like to know about it, so I can learn and evolve as a GM.</p>I said I made a ruling at the table during the game. That doesn't mean my mind is made up about it. If I made the ruling in error, and someone knows a specific that'll handle this corner case, I'd like to know about it, so I can learn and evolve as a GM.Seraphimpunk2012-11-04T01:35:20ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Ravingdorkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#72012-11-04T00:27:53Z2012-11-04T00:27:53Z<p>Why ask for input on the matter if you've already made up your mind?</p>Why ask for input on the matter if you've already made up your mind?Ravingdork2012-11-04T00:27:53ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Seraphimpunkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#62012-11-04T00:24:17Z2012-11-04T00:24:17Z<p>i can understand having different concentrations for different classes and SLAs. they're all different. from your sorcerer to your cleric spells to your SLAs. </p>
<p>Ravingdork, there's a difference in having a concentration check for you wizard levels, and having a separate concentration check for one spell. Don't construe the developers talking about one, with the other. </p>
<p>Shivok, is that interpretation on the benefits from those various feats/items not stacking? or is there any definitive ruling on it? I'd love to nerf a power gamer around here. lol. </p>
<p>my ruling at the table was that the bonuses don't change your overall caster level, and didn't apply to concentration. After the fact, looking for consensus on the situation.</p>i can understand having different concentrations for different classes and SLAs. they're all different. from your sorcerer to your cleric spells to your SLAs.
Ravingdork, there's a difference in having a concentration check for you wizard levels, and having a separate concentration check for one spell. Don't construe the developers talking about one, with the other.
Shivok, is that interpretation on the benefits from those various feats/items not stacking? or is there any definitive ruling...Seraphimpunk2012-11-04T00:24:17ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Ravingdorkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#52012-11-03T23:10:37Z2012-11-03T23:10:37Z<p>With respect, I disagree. It does indeed effect your concentration modifiers.</p>
<p>Also, Pathfinder game developers have already made it clear that Caster Level affects Concentration Checks and that the same character can have multiple different Concentration Check modifiers for different things.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sean K Reynolds wrote:</div><blockquote>A half-fiend drow sorcerer cleric is going to have drow SLAs, half-fiend SLAs, sorcerer SLAs, cleric SLAs, sorcerer spellcasting, and cleric spellcasting, each of which has different caster levels and concentration check values.</blockquote><p>With respect, I disagree. It does indeed effect your concentration modifiers.
Also, Pathfinder game developers have already made it clear that Caster Level affects Concentration Checks and that the same character can have multiple different Concentration Check modifiers for different things.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:A half-fiend drow sorcerer cleric is going to have drow SLAs, half-fiend SLAs, sorcerer SLAs, cleric SLAs, sorcerer spellcasting, and cleric spellcasting, each of which has...Ravingdork2012-11-03T23:10:37ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Shivokhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#42012-11-03T23:06:35Z2012-11-03T23:06:35Z<p>I would say anything that affects your character level when casting that specific spell would be included. but....</p>
<p>RAW: If the trait/feat alters says it alters all the 'effects' of the spell' then the answer is they wouldnt stack.</p>
<p>So if you have all those feats/traits I would say the following would occur.</p>
<p>Gifted Adept - Does not stack
<br />
Spell Specialization - Does not stack
<br />
Varisian Tatoo - Does stack.
<br />
Orange Ioun Stone - Does stack
<br />
Precocious Spellcaster - Does stack</p>
<p>Of course this is just based on the wording of the feats/traits in question. Their <i> intent</i> is another matter.</p>
<p>I dont see it as a game breaker and if realistically your that specialized ona single spell then it's more than likely that your caster is so good at it that he should get the bonus for all the feats/traits.</p>
<p>but thats just me becuase my wizard is also a one spell wonder!</p>I would say anything that affects your character level when casting that specific spell would be included. but....
RAW: If the trait/feat alters says it alters all the 'effects' of the spell' then the answer is they wouldnt stack.
So if you have all those feats/traits I would say the following would occur.
Gifted Adept - Does not stack
Spell Specialization - Does not stack
Varisian Tatoo - Does stack.
Orange Ioun Stone - Does stack
Precocious Spellcaster - Does stack
Of course this is...Shivok2012-11-03T23:06:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Malag (alias of Adam Mataja)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#32012-11-03T22:38:44Z2012-11-03T22:38:44Z<p>It says in Spell Specialization text "Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell."</p>
<p>I believe key word is <b>of the spell</b>. Concentration is related with spells of course, but it's not part of spell or spell effect. I am however 60% sure of this. I can't say that I know answer really.</p>It says in Spell Specialization text "Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell."
I believe key word is of the spell. Concentration is related with spells of course, but it's not part of spell or spell effect. I am however 60% sure of this. I can't say that I know answer really.Malag (alias of Adam Mataja)2012-11-03T22:38:44ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Sitrihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#22012-11-03T22:05:46Z2012-11-03T22:05:46Z<p>Spell specialization only changes effects of the spell, therefore it doesn't read to me like it would affect you concentration.</p>Spell specialization only changes effects of the spell, therefore it doesn't read to me like it would affect you concentration.Sitri2012-11-03T22:05:46ZForums: Rules Questions: Does Spell Specialization effect Concentration ?Seraphimpunkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4e3?Does-Spell-Specialization-effect-Concentration#12012-11-03T21:47:38Z2012-11-03T21:47:38Z<p>Spell Specialization effects your caster level when determining benefits of a spell. Does it also effect your Concentration when made to cast that spell defensively? </p>
<p>Say you had the trait Magical Adept, and Spell Specialization, and Varisian Tattoo. for a total of +4 to the caster level with one spell (of the varisian tattoo's school), would that equate to a +4 to concentration when casting the spell? or just when determining effects of the spell?</p>Spell Specialization effects your caster level when determining benefits of a spell. Does it also effect your Concentration when made to cast that spell defensively?
Say you had the trait Magical Adept, and Spell Specialization, and Varisian Tattoo. for a total of +4 to the caster level with one spell (of the varisian tattoo's school), would that equate to a +4 to concentration when casting the spell? or just when determining effects of the spell?Seraphimpunk2012-11-03T21:47:38Z