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So, when are we going to see a fix to Combat Maneuvers?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Ashiel wrote:
By 6th level you may be quite able to completely avoid AoOs by mooks without heavy investment (6 ranks, +3 class skill, +2 Dexterity = +11 before items or buffs). However, pointing and laughing at a skilled opponent more appropriate for your level will be harder, and you will find yourself back to those same swingy chances.

Looking at CMDs, I don't find this to be the case. Clicking through, it seems most CR3 enemies (pretty mooky at level 6, I'd say) have a CMD of 15+, making moving through their square (which is what Shallowsoul wanted) DC20. So against a mook with an unimpressive CMD you only have a 60% chance of it working. Against a CR = Level opponent, where the CMDs seem to be around 25, you drop down to a 10% chance. I would say it is more "swingy" against Mooks and very unlikely against CR=Level opponents. Heck, stand a mook next to the CR appropriate person for the +2 bonus and it becomes literally impossible.

Now, as I said, items and feats can provide a band aid to this. Grab Skill Focus, some boots of elvenkind, and a better dexterity and you are good to go. However, even with substantial investment, it eventually becomes difficult to impossible again. If that same character bought a +5 manual, +6 stat item and Boots of Elvenkind, took Skill Focus and Acrobatics, and put maximum ranks in Acrobatics and all his stat points in Dexterity, he would have a +48 bonus at level 20. CMD for CR20 looks like around 55, so 60 to tumble through, leaving us with a 40% chance to pull it off for a close to maximally invested character. Full speed is not possible, and against a boss or a one of the creatures on the high end of CMD it would be very difficult. And this does not include enemies who might have Deflection or other bonuses to CMD from items or buffs.

Now, we can disagree as to whether or not one should be able to tumble through the square of an equal level opponent if you have invested in that tactic, and if so what an appropriate chance of success would be. However, even leaving that aside, I favor the 10+BaB+Dex or 10+Acrobatics route. The thing is, the enemies that are the hardest to tumble past in the current system are not the quick and skilled sort, but big hulking monsters. Running through the square of a skilled Rogue without provoking an attack is quite easy, while running between the legs of a lumbering Giant is quite hard. From book, films, and other genre material, this feels to me like the opposite of what should be happening. Even if the target numbers stayed approximately the same, in an ideal world I'd see this flipped around (not that I can't already do it for my home games, of course).


shallowsoul wrote:

That's great and all but let's see some builds.

I'm not talking about builds set specifically to do this which is not the problem. Builds that allow you to do this and still be able to do other things relatively well.

How about a dex focused gunslinger rogue or archer? You can kite an enemy swordsman or tumble into position to flank an enemy without provoking.

I don't know why you consider skill points, a feat and a few thousand gold a large investment.


Uh shallowsoul, you are the one with the problem and a character who you feel demonstrates it. Why not post your character to demonstrate the issue? It seems crass to make a statement, not post something that supports it and then demand that other people do that work.


shallowsoul wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Also, instead of just throwing up a partial build with really high skill totals, how about throw up the rest of that build so we can have a look at it.

All I have to do is use a weapon focus_ agile weapon build or an archery build.

The only feat I mentioned was skill focus, boosting dex as my main stat is not hard at all.

Is there a reason you think the build would not be possible?

I'm assuming you are going to be using the fighter as the class because of all the bonus feats you get?

I was thinking ranger if I were to do it, but it would be a good chance for me to see if I can make pure fighter more versatile by just using fighter levels. If I can do that, and handle the acrobatic challenge then I can kill two birds with one stone.

edit:I have a 5ish hour drive back home so my lack of posts is not a lack of participation. :)

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

As the player of a combat maneuver specialist in Pathfinder Society (a brutal pugilist barbarian), I find that I have no issue with the combat maneuver system as written.

My barbarian is currently 8th level and, while raging, has a base CMD of 30. His CMB for grappling is a respectable +23. Due to his archetype, he counts as one size category larger for determining what targets he can grapple. With a friendly caster on the table and a wand of enlarge person, his CMB increases to +25 and he can grapple anything Gargantuan or smaller. For comparison, a dire crocodile (CR 9, Gargantuan) has a CMD of 36. This means my barbarian has a roughly 50/50 chance of successfully grappling it (before any other bonuses like bless, haste, bardic performance, etc.). Since most of the challenges encountered by an 8th-level character will be CR 8 or 9, I feel like a 50% success rate is right on target. Obviously creatures not designed as "brawlers" such as spellcasters, archers, fey, and the like will often be almost trivially easy to grapple. Those creatures usually have other capabilities to protect themselves such as flight, invisibility, speed, stealth, etc.


Guy Kilmore wrote:
Uh shallowsoul, you are the one with the problem and a character who you feel demonstrates it. Why not post your character to demonstrate the issue? It seems crass to make a statement, not post something that supports it and then demand that other people do that work.

This is a good idea also.

Also we(myself and SS) could both post builds so we can compare how we tried to make it work.

I might even try a monk. The issue is what books are assumed to be available. That way comments like "you can only assume access too.." can't come up after the fact.

Sczarni

wraithstrike wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Also, instead of just throwing up a partial build with really high skill totals, how about throw up the rest of that build so we can have a look at it.

All I have to do is use a weapon focus_ agile weapon build or an archery build.

The only feat I mentioned was skill focus, boosting dex as my main stat is not hard at all.

Is there a reason you think the build would not be possible?

I'm assuming you are going to be using the fighter as the class because of all the bonus feats you get?
I was thinking ranger if I were to do it, but it would be a good chance for me to see if I can make pure fighter more versatile by just using fighter levels. If I can do that, and handle the acrobatic challenge then I can kill two birds with one stone.

He only mentioned Skill Focus. Perhaps he was thinking of playing a Half-Elf? Or, even better a Human (get Skill Focus x 3 in exchange for level 1 bonus feat).

I guess Weapon Finesse was implied, but for a DEX based character isn't that a given?


Shallow, listing the rest of the build isn't really necessary here. There have already been a few builds above that list minimal investment to get pretty high CMBs. And, by minimal, I mean that 1) There's plenty of room for them in terms of feats, stats, etc., and 2)aside from Skill focus, much of the other investments benefit the character in other ways and leave plenty of doors open to build off of. And players need to learn how to diversify.

Our trip happy fighter learned (around level 13ish), that being a one trick pony doesn't work too well, especially at higher levels. I allowed him to change out just a couple of things. He was still pretty good at tripping, but when he was done, he was set up to do good DPS, and was effective at shutting down casters near him. He chose other foci that synergized well with high other feats and the such based around tripping.


Krodjin wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Also, instead of just throwing up a partial build with really high skill totals, how about throw up the rest of that build so we can have a look at it.

All I have to do is use a weapon focus_ agile weapon build or an archery build.

The only feat I mentioned was skill focus, boosting dex as my main stat is not hard at all.

Is there a reason you think the build would not be possible?

I'm assuming you are going to be using the fighter as the class because of all the bonus feats you get?
I was thinking ranger if I were to do it, but it would be a good chance for me to see if I can make pure fighter more versatile by just using fighter levels. If I can do that, and handle the acrobatic challenge then I can kill two birds with one stone.

He only mentioned Skill Focus. Perhaps he was thinking of playing a Half-Elf? Or, even better a Human (get Skill Focus x 3 in exchange for level 1 bonus feat).

I guess Weapon Finesse was implied, but for a DEX based character isn't that a given?

That could be, but if it only works well with humans and half elves due to the bonus feat that makes it a corner case, so I won't be using either race.

With that said we need to decide which books are ok for use.

I won't be around to decide since I am about to leave relatively soon.

Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:
Guy Kilmore wrote:
Uh shallowsoul, you are the one with the problem and a character who you feel demonstrates it. Why not post your character to demonstrate the issue? It seems crass to make a statement, not post something that supports it and then demand that other people do that work.

This is a good idea also.

Also we(myself and SS) could both post builds so we can compare how we tried to make it work.

I might even try a monk. The issue is what books are assumed to be available. That way comments like "you can only assume access too.." can't come up after the fact.

Im actually working on a 12th level Monk as we speak.

Will post as soon as I'm finished.


shallowsoul wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Guy Kilmore wrote:
Uh shallowsoul, you are the one with the problem and a character who you feel demonstrates it. Why not post your character to demonstrate the issue? It seems crass to make a statement, not post something that supports it and then demand that other people do that work.

This is a good idea also.

Also we(myself and SS) could both post builds so we can compare how we tried to make it work.

I might even try a monk. The issue is what books are assumed to be available. That way comments like "you can only assume access too.." can't come up after the fact.

Im actually working on a 12th level Monk as we speak.

Will post as soon as I'm finished.

I will try 12th level also. What sources and PB etc... are you using?


shallowsoul wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Guy Kilmore wrote:
Uh shallowsoul, you are the one with the problem and a character who you feel demonstrates it. Why not post your character to demonstrate the issue? It seems crass to make a statement, not post something that supports it and then demand that other people do that work.

This is a good idea also.

Also we(myself and SS) could both post builds so we can compare how we tried to make it work.

I might even try a monk. The issue is what books are assumed to be available. That way comments like "you can only assume access too.." can't come up after the fact.

Im actually working on a 12th level Monk as we speak.

Will post as soon as I'm finished.

Cool! I look forward to seeing it.


I really don't think it would be that difficult at all to focus on Acrobatics any more than it would be to focus on any other skill. If you want to be good at something, you need to invest. Any character that wants to be good at a skill can find a way to do so. It's not that hard and doesn't take any system mastery at all. Skill Focus and Acrobatics are only two feats and add +5 or +10 depending on your level. If you need it you can invest in a single trait that could give you +1 to +4 depending on whether or not it was a class skill or not for you. So with a single skill point, at level 1 and Dexterity of 10 and being human, you can start with +10 before ACP kicks in. I don't think it would be that hard to maintain from that point on if it's that important. Some classes that rely on heavy armor may find it more difficult but then again, it's not generally thematic for them to be tumbling around anyway.

Just like if you want to be great at dealing damage, you will invest in gear that will increase your attack and damage bonuses, if you want to be good at acrobatics, you will invest in gear that will allow you to do that as well.

Some gear that will help:

1) Ring of Jumping: +5 Competence Bonus, 2500 gold
2) Boots of Elvenkind: +5 Competence Bonus, 2500 gold
3) Ring of Jumping, Improved: +10 Competence Bonus, 10000 gold
4) Belt of Dexterity: +1 to +3 (Price varies)
5) Luckstone: +1 luck bonus, 20000 gold
6) Mithril armor: up to +3 bonus, 1000 to 9000 gold
7) Potion of Heroism, +2 morale bonus, 750 gold
8) Masterwork tools: +2 unnamed bonus, 50 gold
9) Masterwork armor: +1 bonus, 150 gold

That's just in the core book and I'm sure there are plenty of other items as well. If you want to be good, you need to invest.


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shallowsoul wrote:

That's great and all but let's see some builds.

I'm not talking about builds set specifically to do this which is not the problem. Builds that allow you to do this and still be able to do other things relatively well.

After seeing the monk that caused you to complain about this, I'd rather just point and laugh. :P

I have no desire to go through the effort of building a whole character to pacify you because you refuse to do the math yourself. What I will instead do is is show you the data that you might need to do it yourself (teach a man to fish, as they say).

A Breakdown of Acrobatics
The following is a breakdown of two individuals. One is a wizard with a +2 Dexterity who puts a little love into Acrobatics each level, versus a rogue doing the same. I shall make a comparison of their statistics plus any buffs and include a note in parenthesis that displays how much of an investment of their wealth by level was required to acquire these numbers and how many feats were used as well (allowing readers to tweak it as they desire).

Each test subject shall be compared against the HIGHEST CMD of each CR range as taken from monsters listed on the Monsters by Challenge Rating from the PRD. Notice I said highest once again. The vast majority of enemies at each of these CRs is actually lower than the ones on this guide as these are the top-end CMDs, not average. For every point below the listed CMD, your chance of success increases by 5% (the reverse is also true in the case of customized monsters with exceptional CMD).

Finally, each subject will be evaluated at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20 versus enemies that are up to a CR of their level+2 (so if you are 1st level, I will only list enemies up to CR 3).

An Acrobatic Anybody (say Wizard)
Level 1: 1 rank + 2 Dex (0% WBL)

  • CR 1/3 Orc Warrior, CMD 14 (50% success)
  • CR 1 Riding Dog, CMD 15 (45% success)
  • CR 2 Auroch, CMD 19 (25% success).
  • CR 3 Lion, CMD 22 (10% success)

    An Acrobatic Expert (say Rogue)
    Level 1: 1 rank + 2 Dex + 3 Class (0% WBL)

  • CR 1/3 Orc Warrior, CMD 14 (65% success)
  • CR 1 Riding Dog, CMD 15 (60% success)
  • CR 2 Auroch, CMD 19 (40% success).
  • CR 3 Lion, CMD 22 (25% success)

    An Acrobatic Anybody (say Wizard)
    Level 5: 5 ranks + 2 Dex +2 masterwork tool, +2 competence (4% WBL)

  • CR 5 Large Elemental, CMD 31 (5% success)
  • CR 6 Lamia, CMD 28 (20% success)
  • CR 7 Huge Elemental, CMD 38 (-35% success)

    Special Note: Elementals have amazingly high CMD for their CR which may cloud your expectations. The second highest CMD on the CR 5 list is the Dire Lion at 26 (30% success) and on the CR 7 list is the Stegosaurus at 31 (5% success). The moral of this story is don't try to CMD elementals.

    An Acrobatic Expert (say Rogue)
    Level 5: 5 ranks + 2 Dex +2 masterwork tool, +2 competence +3 class skill (4% WBL)

  • CR 5 Large Elemental, CMD 31 (20% success)
  • CR 6 Lamia, CMD 28 (35% success)
  • CR 7 Huge Elemental, CMD 38 (-20% success)

    Special Note: Elementals have amazingly high CMD for their CR which may cloud your expectations. The second highest CMD on the CR 5 list is the Dire Lion at 26 (45% success) and on the CR 7 list is the Stegosaurus at 31 (20% success). The moral of this story is don't try to CMD elementals.

    An Acrobatic Anybody (say Wizard)
    Level 10: 10 ranks + 2 Dex +2 masterwork tool, +5 competence (4% WBL)

  • CR 10 Brachiosaurus, CMD 40 (5% success).
  • CR 11 Elder Elemental, CMD 49 (-40% success)
  • CR 12 Sea Serpent, CMD 43 (-15% success)

    Special Note: Gotta love those elementals and gargantuan dinosaurs. Again, to show a little behind the scenes, the next highest CR 10 creature is the Bebilith with a 34 CMD (35% success), the next highest CR 11 is a Cloud Giant with a 37 CMD (20% success), and the next highest CR 12 is a Purple Worm at 40 CMD (5% success).

    An Acrobatic Expert (say Rogue)
    Level 10: 10 ranks + 2 Dex +2 masterwork tool, +5 competence, +3 class skill (4% WBL)

  • CR 10 Brachiosaurus, CMD 40 (20% success).
  • CR 11 Elder Elemental, CMD 49 (-25% success)
  • CR 12 Sea Serpent, CMD 43 (0% success)

    Special Note: Gotta love those elementals and gargantuan dinosaurs. Again, to show a little behind the scenes, the next highest CR 10 creature is the Bebilith with a 34 CMD (50% success), the next highest CR 11 is a Cloud Giant with a 37 CMD (35% success), and the next highest CR 12 is a Purple Worm at 40 CMD (20% success).

    An Acrobatic Anybody (say Wizard)
    Level 15: 15 ranks + 2 Dex +2 masterwork tool, +10 competence (4% WBL)

  • CR 15 Ancient White Dragon, CMD 44 (30% success)
  • CR 16 Ancient Brass Dragon, CMD 45 (25% success)
  • CR 17 Ice Linnorm, CMD 56 {!!} (-30% success)

    Special Note: Holy crap, do not CMD a Linnorm. Just don't do it. You're just asking to get thwacked. It is a CMD prodigy for its CR, as the next highest CMD in the CR 17 range is the Ancient Green Dragon at 48 (10% success).

    An Acrobatic Expert (say Rogue)
    Level 15: 15 ranks + 2 Dex, +2 masterwork tool, +10 competence, +3 class (4% WBL)

  • CR 15 Ancient White Dragon, CMD 44 (45% success)
  • CR 16 Ancient Brass Dragon, CMD 45 (40% success)
  • CR 17 Ice Linnorm, CMD 56 {!!} (-15% success)

    Special Note: Holy crap, do not CMD a Linnorm. Just don't do it. You're just asking to get thwacked. It is a CMD prodigy for its CR, as the next highest CMD in the CR 17 range is the Ancient Green Dragon at 48 (25% success).

    An Acrobatic Anybody (say Wizard)
    Level 20: 20 ranks + 2 Dex, +2 masterwork tool, +10 competence (1% WBL)

  • CR 20 Tarn Linnorm, CMD 64 {!!} (-45% success)
  • CR 23 Solar, CMD 47 (40% success)

    Special Note: "No Frodo, that's a Linno--*splat" is what springs to mind. The second highest CMD for CR 20 is an Ancient Gold Dragon at 53 (15% success).

    An Acrobatic Expert (say Rogue)
    Level 20: 20 ranks + 2 Dex, +2 masterwork tool, +10 competence, +3 class (1% WBL)

  • CR 20 Tarn Linnorm, CMD 64 {!!} (-30% success)
  • CR 23 Solar, CMD 47 (55% success)

    Special Note: The second highest CMD for CR 20 is an Ancient Gold Dragon at 53 (30% success).

    =========================================================
    Additional Notes: The following formula can be applied to the see the modifications from additional investment.

  • Dexterity Changes: These tests were done with a +2 Dexterity from 1st-20th level. Likely your Dexterity will be much higher. For every +1 bonus over 2, add +5% to your success rates (so a +6 Dexterity is +20% more success). The reverse is true as well (for every point less than +2 from Dexterity success rate is reduced by 5%).
  • Skill Focus: Skill focus adds a flat +15% success chance to your success rates if you have fewer than 10 ranks in the skill. At 10 ranks and higher it instead adds +30% success chance.
  • Acrobatic: Acrobatic adds a flat +10% success chance to your success rates if you have fewer than 10 ranks in the skill. At 10 ranks and higher it instead adds +20% success chance.
  • Heroism: The heroism spell adds +10% to success chance.

    My Conclusion: I think it's really easy to make successful tumble checks with even marginal investment (nothing above consumes more than 4% of your wealth by level at any level listed). The addition of the skill focus feat alone can make it an auto-success against most opponents at many levels, and if your Dexterity improves at all over the course of your levels you will see a noticeable increase in success rate as well.

  • Shadow Lodge

    Yeah, there are some things one shouldn't be able to do without massive investment or a bit of luck. Like grappling those giants. That's the stuff of heroics after all.

    Most cmb checks, meaning cmb checks against regular opposition such as the aforementioned hostile mooks, become rather trivial with a melee focused character as long as those maneuvers are weapon-based so you can use most of the same boni as with you regular melee.

    This means that fighters and barbarians and rangers - against their FE, naturally - can do combat maneuvers on the side, again against mooks and the like, without investing into them, but often choose not to, since full attacking is just more efficient.

    I realise I'm going off on tangent and getting somewhat off-topic since we were discussing cm+acrobatics(but I blame the topic title), but there seems to be a common misconception that 3.5 and PF don't really allow characters to do action movie heroics like knocking people off ledges and turning tables(alright, that one doesn't really have anything to do with cmb) on their side for cover in combat. It's a misconception, since most classes and characters who have cqc as their forte can already do that pretty trivially by virtue of having a good melee stat and base attack bonus +situational and statistic boni.

    Sure, it does get harder and harder eventually, but I'd argue that high level fights are firmly out of the realm of swashbuckly tumbles and entering into the stuff of legends. Then you get the martial artists who can half-nelson demigods. And those are the specialized one-trick pony builds and that's fine since they, by all rights, should be succeeding with that much specialization.

    Silver Crusade

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

    Ashiel is so cute when he gets worked up to prove his point ;-)


    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Muser wrote:
    Then you get the martial artists who can half-nelson demigods. And those are the specialized one-trick pony builds and that's fine since they, by all rights, should be succeeding with that much specialization.

    FULL NELSON!


    Gorbacz wrote:
    Ashiel is so cute when he gets worked up to prove his point ;-)

    Thanks Gorbacz. You're a cute bag of teeth too. :D

    Though...I didn't get worked up. I just took a little bit to throw together a chart to help people with their builds by having a quick reference.


    I think this exemplifies a point about Pathfinder and 3rd edition in general that I'm trying to teach to a "new" player (he played AD&D, but hasn't otherwise roleplayed in like 15 years)--this game is for specialists. If you try to be good at multiple things, most of the time, you're going to be inadequate in every one of those things.

    Yes, spells can help your versatility a bit, but in general, specialize or lose.

    Just take these examples--if you want to use Acrobatics, you need to invest in it. If you're not taking feats, items, and other crap to boost Acrobatics, it's useless (for the purposes of moving through spaces and avoiding AoOs at least).

    It's very different from just about every other RPG out there that assumes PCs will be just pretty good at a bunch of stuff, so it's a weird attitude to adjust to for new players/players of different games.

    Silver Crusade

    “Sasha” 12th level female Vanaras Monk.
    Str: 18
    Dex: 24
    Con: 12
    Int: 12
    Wis: 19
    Cha: 5
    AC: 32
    32 (Touch)
    25 (Flat footed)
    HP : 12d8 + 12 + 12
    Ki Points: 10
    Traits: Quain Martial Artist, (Contemplating)
    Spd: 80
    Init: +7
    Fort: +11
    Ref: +17
    Will: +14
    CMB: +16 (+20 when grappling)
    CMD: 30 (32 vs Being Grappled)
    Attack: Unarmed Strike: (Flurry) +19/+19/+14/+14/+9
    Damage: 2d8 + 6
    Attack: Unarmed Strike: (Flurry with Power Attack): +18/+18/+13/+13/+8
    Damage: 2d8 + 8
    Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Finesse, Spring Attack, Improved Grapple, Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Power Attack, Greater Grapple, Monkey Style, Stunning Fist: 13/per day DC 20
    Acrobatics: +41, Escape Artist: +22, Perception: + 19, Sense Motive: +19, Stealth: + 24, Climb: +4, Swim: +4
    Monk Abilities: Evasion, Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, Still Mind, High Jump, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 60ft, Wholeness of Body, Ki Pool (Magic, Lawful, ), Diamond Body, Abundant Step,
    Items: Monk’s Robes, Belt of Physical Might +4, Bracers of Armor +4, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Headband of Wisdom +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Boots of Striding and Springing, Masterwork Tool, Ring of Protection +2,

    I'm not overly happy with all my choices as of yet so I will probably end up changing. I could get rid of the cloak, take a minus 2 to all saves, buy Boots of Elven Kind and add +5 to my Acrobatics skill.

    Edit: Made some changes. I may ignore Grappling all together but I haven't decided yet. I also have more money to spend so I will decide what else to buy.

    Edit Edit: I bought a Ring of Protection +2. I think I may go through Ultimate Equipment and find some better gear.


    shallowsoul wrote:

    *snip*

    I'm not overly happy with all my choices as of yet so I will probably end up changing. I could get rid of the cloak, take a minus 2 to all saves, buy Boots of Elven Kind and add +5 to my Acrobatics skill.

    Your monk is looking better. AC is not as bad, and if Acrobatics is a concern you're at +28 for avoiding AoOs (which is a 25% chance vs the ancient white dragon which has a goofy-high CMD for CR 15 and that's without investing in a mwk tool or +competence bonus item). I'm still concerned with your offensive side (damage is basically non-existent, especially with spring attack, to-hit isn't so bad, but combat maneuvers are pretty lackluster as well, but that is the eternal plight of the monk. Unable to have a fair offense AND defense). Definitely showing improvement though.

    Quote:
    I'm also not that happy spending 64k on the Belt of Physical Perfection.

    It's an overpriced item that's really only useful/good if you need to save magic item slots. Traditionally with the 3.x/PF the cost of a single slot magic item that improves an ability score is ModSquared * 1,000 gp. Getting one item per slot is cheaper but eats your slots (meaning less overall magic items for you), whereas the belt of physical perfection is nice if you're trying to conserve slots and don't mind paying to have them bundled.

    Personally, I'd recommend (especially if I was your GM) that if you're not super worried about conserving your magic item slots for more awesome stuff, then you should probably get three separate +4 items (such as a belt, vest, and gloves) for 16,000 gp each (this would also allow you to buy them from a Metropolis in a core-game). It also has a mild perk of not shutting you completely down because someone dispelled or destroyed one of your items (a dispel magic on your belt would rob you of 3 items worth of abilities, and if you failed a save vs shatter you're out 64,000 gp).


    shallowsoul wrote:
    I'm also not that happy spending 64k on the Belt of Physical Perfection.

    Then don't. Why spend it on a +4 bonus on three stats when you can forgo Constitution and improve your AC and saves instead? If you don't get hit as often you won't need to worry as much about hit points. Heck, if you get a cloak of displacement or other item that grants a miss chance, you may not need to worry about AC as much either.


    Bob_Loblaw wrote:
    shallowsoul wrote:
    I'm also not that happy spending 64k on the Belt of Physical Perfection.
    Then don't. Why spend it on a +4 bonus on three stats when you can forgo Constitution and improve your AC and saves instead? If you don't get hit as often you won't need to worry as much about hit points. Heck, if you get a cloak of displacement or other item that grants a miss chance, you may not need to worry about AC as much either.

    Ahh, gotta love a lesser cloak of displacement. 20% evasion vs would-be hits. Beautiful. XD

    Grand Lodge

    wraithstrike wrote:


    How did yo do that?

    13 level
    +3 class skill
    +6 dex mod<--can probably get higher than this at level 13 in many games.
    +10 skill focus
    +1 normal trait.
    +2 MW item to boost acrobatics.

    35=ok, never mind

    The storm giant with a CMD of 42 is the only one with a high CMD, which is about 8 higher than the others.

    13 ranks

    3 in class
    6 skill focus
    5 boot of elven kind
    8 dex
    1 trait
    2 MW item

    Okay so I had a trait as well as skill focus it looks like.

    Silver Crusade

    Cold Napalm wrote:
    wraithstrike wrote:


    How did yo do that?

    13 level
    +3 class skill
    +6 dex mod<--can probably get higher than this at level 13 in many games.
    +10 skill focus
    +1 normal trait.
    +2 MW item to boost acrobatics.

    35=ok, never mind

    The storm giant with a CMD of 42 is the only one with a high CMD, which is about 8 higher than the others.

    13 ranks

    3 in class
    6 skill focus
    5 boot of elven kind
    8 dex
    1 trait
    2 MW item

    Okay so I had a trait as well as skill focus it looks like.

    Which trait gives you a +1 to Acrobatics?

    Grand Lodge

    shallowsoul wrote:


    Which trait gives you a +1 to Acrobatics?

    Cliffjumper...cheliax regional feat...as the AP is in cheliax I took that one. I am sure there are others however.


    Thanks you dearly for the analysis, Ashiel. You've successfully shown just how much of a trap the feat Disorienting Maneuver actually is. For Disorienting Maneuver to kick in, not only is the feat holder looking at a +5 to his Acrobatics DC to move through the opponent's space, but often a -10 to the check for full-speed, since Disorienting Maneuver essentially requires a standard action after the Acrobatics check.

    Based on your chart, +5 to DC is a bad idea, -10 to Acrobatics is suicidal. And that's even if the feat-holder is buying items and taking feats. Even without the Disorienting Maneuver trap, what your chart tells us is that a PC doesn't just need feats and items to be really good at avoiding AOs, he needs feats and items just to get started.

    In place of reliance on Acrobatics, this monk Sasha is just better off skipping Disorienting Maneuver and taking the ninja's Vanishing Trick, and/or purchasing a Ring of Ki Mastery and relying on Abundant Step at higher levels. Both options require less investment than Acrobatics and are more reliable than Acrobatics, as demonstrated by the chart.

    Question... do you guys know of any published items which grant a +10 bonus to Acrobatics, and not just to jumping?

    Fortunately, for the case of Sasha the monk, and everyone else, we have identified a simple, elegant houserule which should solve the matter of Acrobatics vs. CMD, for those of us who don't think that one should have to take feats and buy items to get started, and want a different game.

    -Matt


    Ashiel wrote:

    Increased investment to continue to remain relevant at higher levels is a natural part of the game. You might as well be complaining that you need feats, additional class abilities, and magic items to maintain good chances of hitting as your levels rise. That is effectively what this is.

    Acrobatics used in this way is outright denying your foe the option to take an Attack of Opportunity for something that is normally expected to be punished in the rules. Even at half speed is entirely possible to completely escape all but the largest of creatures' reaches and that's before you consider things like double-move. Everyone else in the game has to use the far, far more limited Withdraw action (and you can even use Acrobatics as part of a withdraw.

    That means with a single skill check you are not simply doing something that affects your character, but are denying your opponent a natural combat right (smacking you for moving around in their threatened areas). And you complain that at high levels it becomes more difficult without investment in your ability score, some cheap items, and/or possibly feats.

    Well boo-hoo. People have already shown that without excessive specialization it's not hard to have numbers that easily deal with most over-APL opponents' CMD. With overspecialization it could become trivial. And if moderate specialization is already fine and you make it easy to do with little more than a few skill points and an unimpressive Dexterity, then moderate specialization renders it trivial and everyone does it.

    One of the problems with Tumble in 3.5 was simple. The DC didn't change except based on environmental conditions. The DC was also 15, which allowed about a 55% chance for someone with a +1 dex and +4 from skills to succeed at 1st level. Of course, because this DC didn't scale, it became incredibly trivial (if you put 1 rank / level, you get 60%, 65%, 70%, 75%, 80%, 85%, 90%, 95%, 100%, etc). With virtually no specialization at all a little investment in Tumble meant never provoking again....

    Well there was the variant rule for tumble that it is 15 (or 20) + BAB to tumble through their squares. So their skill could be factored in if you wanted.

    There was also the sweet knight class, which was the rogue counter. Their squares also became counted as difficult terrain. With reach weapons, it got extra interesting.


    3.5 Loyalist wrote:
    Well there was the variant rule for tumble that it is 15 (or 20) + BAB to tumble through their squares. So their skill could be factored in if you wanted.

    Well it was a variant so not part of the normal assumption, whereas the vs CMD is very similar and scales better to keep it from becoming trivial (because 15 + BAB caps out at DC 35 at 20th level for the most part, and since you can very easily have a modifier equal to the DC at that level...).

    Quote:
    There was also the sweet knight class, which was the rogue counter. Their squares also became counted as difficult terrain. With reach weapons, it got extra interesting.

    Knight was mechanically poor, but they were the first class to have a difficult terrain feature like that, which was pretty cool. Crusader is probably a better option. They are better rounded and have an identical ability if memory serves.


    Can anyone suggest what masterwork item might give +2 to acrobatics when tumbling through combat? Shoes? Or should it be something like a grappling hook, implying that it's handheld?


    Mudfoot wrote:
    Can anyone suggest what masterwork item might give +2 to acrobatics when tumbling through combat? Shoes? Or should it be something like a grappling hook, implying that it's handheld?

    Anything that could adjust your center of gravity like a balancing pole of some kind. I would let my players get creative with it so long as it is somewhat plausible. Heck, I would even allow them to have a masterwork polearm designed for just such a purpose.

    Shadow Lodge

    Bob_Loblaw wrote:


    1) Ring of Jumping: +5 Competence Bonus, 2500 gold
    3) Ring of Jumping, Improved: +10 Competence Bonus, 10000 gold
    4) Belt of Dexterity: +1 to +3 (Price varies)
    5) Luckstone: +1 luck bonus, 20000 gold
    6) Mithril armor: up to +3 bonus, 1000 to 9000 gold
    7) Potion of Heroism, +2 morale bonus, 750 gold
    8) Masterwork tools: +2 unnamed bonus, 50 gold
    9) Masterwork armor: +1 bonus, 150 gold

    That's just in the core book and I'm sure there are plenty of other items as well. If you want to be good, you need to invest.

    ...what. Rings of Jumping do nothing for tumble. Masterwork/Mithril is something you need to use to get back to a normal check, when you're trying to get ahead.

    I don't see it, friends. I'm with Mattastrophic.

    I'm also not all that amused that Trip, Sunder, Disarm, Bullrush, Grapple, Drag, Overrun, Reposition, and Steal all become useless or near useless once you start fighting creatures larger than you (and most of them stop wearing equipment).


    Mudfoot wrote:
    Can anyone suggest what masterwork item might give +2 to acrobatics when tumbling through combat? Shoes? Or should it be something like a grappling hook, implying that it's handheld?

    The first thing that would spring to my mind is bracers to protect your joints. I took dance classes for some years (Tap, Ballet, Jazz, and Clogging) and I knew a lot of girls that also learned Tumbling. Some of them would wear special wrist and ankle bands for added support so they could preform harder moves without snapping anything important. Sort of like the products found here. These things allow you to more comfortably and reliably push yourself without injury, and are the first sorts of things I imagine when I think of a masterwork tool that would improve acrobatics (joint supports).


    Serum wrote:
    Bob_Loblaw wrote:


    1) Ring of Jumping: +5 Competence Bonus, 2500 gold
    3) Ring of Jumping, Improved: +10 Competence Bonus, 10000 gold
    4) Belt of Dexterity: +1 to +3 (Price varies)
    5) Luckstone: +1 luck bonus, 20000 gold
    6) Mithril armor: up to +3 bonus, 1000 to 9000 gold
    7) Potion of Heroism, +2 morale bonus, 750 gold
    8) Masterwork tools: +2 unnamed bonus, 50 gold
    9) Masterwork armor: +1 bonus, 150 gold

    That's just in the core book and I'm sure there are plenty of other items as well. If you want to be good, you need to invest.

    ...what. Rings of Jumping do nothing for tumble. Masterwork/Mithril is something you need to use to get back to a normal check, when you're trying to get ahead.

    I don't see it, friends. I'm with Mattastrophic.

    When I wrote it, I was thinking of acrobatics overall, not just trying to exceed the CMD. You can easily ignore the the two rings and still have everything else I mentioned for nominal fee. I think I also forgot to mention boots of elvenkind but I don't feel like looking them up to see if they only add to jumps or to the overall check. Just like with anything else, if you want to be good, you need to invest.


    Ashiel wrote:
    The first thing that would spring to my mind is bracers to protect your joints. I took dance classes for some years (Tap, Ballet, Jazz, and Clogging) and I knew a lot of girls that also learned Tumbling. Some of them would wear special wrist and ankle bands for added support so they could preform harder moves without snapping anything important. Sort of like the products found here. These things allow you to more comfortably and reliably push yourself without injury, and are the first sorts of things I imagine when I think of a masterwork tool that would improve acrobatics (joint supports).

    This is exactly what first came to my mind as well.

    Grand Lodge

    Mudfoot wrote:
    Can anyone suggest what masterwork item might give +2 to acrobatics when tumbling through combat? Shoes? Or should it be something like a grappling hook, implying that it's handheld?

    I used a tumbling harness. A suit designed to help tumbling by protecting joints from moving badly and muscles from getting bruised.

    Grand Lodge

    Mattastrophic wrote:


    Based on your chart, +5 to DC is a bad idea, -10 to Acrobatics is suicidal. And that's even if the feat-holder is buying items and taking feats. Even without the Disorienting Maneuver trap, what your chart tells us is that a PC doesn't just need feats and items to be really good at avoiding AOs, he needs feats and items just to get started.

    Except that you don't need to take that -10 if you have haste or exp retreat up...which really shouldn't be an issue. And you need one feat and one REALLY cheap items to get to a point where it becomes pretty trivial for thing BIGGER AND BADDER then you. For things your CR, you don't really even need skill focus. So yeah I'm not sure where you getting the we're screwed math...because I just don't see it.


    Ashiel wrote:
    3.5 Loyalist wrote:
    Well there was the variant rule for tumble that it is 15 (or 20) + BAB to tumble through their squares. So their skill could be factored in if you wanted.

    Well it was a variant so not part of the normal assumption, whereas the vs CMD is very similar and scales better to keep it from becoming trivial (because 15 + BAB caps out at DC 35 at 20th level for the most part, and since you can very easily have a modifier equal to the DC at that level...).

    Quote:
    There was also the sweet knight class, which was the rogue counter. Their squares also became counted as difficult terrain. With reach weapons, it got extra interesting.
    Knight was mechanically poor, but they were the first class to have a difficult terrain feature like that, which was pretty cool. Crusader is probably a better option. They are better rounded and have an identical ability if memory serves.

    You can get the mod that high, so the tumble was still possible, but you won't all the time. Through space was 25 or 25+bab, so I made an error in the last post.

    On the knight, nope. They were not mechanically poor. See some have said this before, so I did a little experiment. I threw one into a PF game, and it stood up, it did well. Also seen another do well in PF in the Runelord's adventure, the will saves bounced right off, the hp came in handy, reach + difficult terrain caused monster headaches.

    Great bab, d12 hit die, good will save, some bonus feats, nifty challenge that was weak at some levels, but usually pretty good, unusual special abilities, pushes towards defensive builds with the shield ac boost--the knight can still rock even in PF unmodified.


    3.5 Loyalist wrote:
    You can get the mod that high, so the tumble was still possible, but you won't all the time. Through space was 25 or 25+bab, so I made an error in the last post.

    Still pretty trivial. Even in Pathfinder you see DC 45 as the highest CMD at CR 16, and a 15th level character with pathetic investment has a 25% chance to succeed at that DC. With a +5 Dexterity it becomes 40%. With skill focus it becomes 70%. By 20th level in 3.5, it's not terribly difficult to get a bonus of +45 by 20th level, meaning an impossible to fail at 25+20.

    Quote:

    On the knight, nope. They were not mechanically poor. See some have said this before, so I did a little experiment. I threw one into a PF game, and it stood up, it did well. Also seen another do well in PF in the Runelord's adventure, the will saves bounced right off, the hp came in handy, reach + difficult terrain caused monster headaches.

    Great bab, d12 hit die, good will save, some bonus feats, nifty challenge that was weak at some levels, but usually pretty good, unusual special abilities, pushes towards defensive builds with the shield ac boost--the knight can still rock even in PF unmodified.

    I've had people play NPC classes and do the same. Also unless you mean the reprinted Rise of the Runelords then you ran them through a 3.5 adventure not a Pathfinder-specific adventure. I didn't say the Knight sucked and you shouldn't play it. I said it was mechanically poor (not even the same as saying it was mechanically the worst, or unplayabley bad, or any other extreme suggestion). Merely that they were mechanically poor and Crusader can do pretty much the same thing while being more well-rounded. 'Tis all.

    Grand Lodge

    3.5 Loyalist wrote:


    You can get the mod that high, so the tumble was still possible, but you won't all the time. Through space was 25 or 25+bab, so I made an error in the last post.

    Even 25+bab is WAY too low. Did you not see my +38 at level 13?!? And seriously that run into the bad at low levels, not an issue at high levels problem. 25+bab means at level 1, to do this you need a DC26 check. At level ONE. That is horrible. Even twinked out as much as I can for this, that is one hell of a check...which becomes a none issue by level 10. Yeah, this is a BAD BAD system...sorry.


    Agreed. It scaled horribly. In Pathfinder, the DC scales pretty well. It's also not so easy versus certain enemies and I think that's a good thing. It shouldn't be a good option against every opponent anymore than any other trick is a good option against every opponent. As a general rule of thumb, large and larger elementals are very hard to whip around. :P


    Yeah, I don't see a problem, either with CMB or Acrobatics vs. CMD.
    Sure, some monsters are just crazy hard to beat their CMD except for extreme specialists.
    That's fine. Many monsters have some sort of immunity or near-immunity to one specific tactic.
    Dragons are pretty much well-specced across a range of sub-systems, because... they're Dragons.
    But when you aren't fighting those types of monsters (which you should be able to recognize and know they are a bad idea to CMB),
    CMB and Acrobatics can still be a very viable tactic to use, albeit comparing effects to DPR isn't their point.
    Sure, CMD uses one more stat than CMB, but guess what: one more secondary stat bonus isn't really more impressive than all the attack bonuses you should be having at high levels (i.e. the game is designed around you having). If you need more CMB, try Flanking.
    Acrobatics takes completely different means to optimize, but you are starting out +3 ahead if you have it as a Class Skill. Skill Focus (scaling) and the 'Split' Skill Feats are both very strong Feats to amp up Acrobatics... This isn't really any more Feats than anybody else is taking to be competent at CMBs. There is also special items, traits, and most importantly: spells and class abilities which can boost skill checks. As mentioned, Speed boosts are also important to boosting the Acrobatics skill: directly helping your skill bonus when Jumping, and indirectly helping your Tumble by letting you get by with moving half-speed (of your increased speed).
    Pretty like how the rest of the game works, you will be best off if you can pick up 'low hanging fruit' which stacks (as broadly as possible), each part at relatively low cost, but adding up to a synergistic effect. Generally speaking, you don't really take the Improved Combat Maneuver Feats for the +2 bonus, although it is nice, you take it for AoO avoidance and to get further Feats in the chain. If you want higher CMB, pretty much all attack bonuses apply, and you can also avoid AoOs when making weapon-based maneuvers by being able to have Reach Advantage (not always possible vs. big monsters, but they aren't the whole game either).
    Of course, big bad monsters get big bad Size bonuses to CMD, but interestingly enough said monsters often don't have much gear, meaning they don't benefit from many of the potential AC bonuses applicable to CMD (and any monster 'budget' spent on Natural AC is wasted on CMD).

    If you're really worried about CMB/CMD, /please/ check the Beta Playtest thread for "Maneuver AC".
    A bunch of people ran the numbers for CMB/CMD (fore-seeing it's final functionality), and amazingly enough, it pretty much matches the chances of success using 3.5 rules for Touch Attack + STR check. Which is really a an amazing thing to accomplish when reducing 2 checks down to one.

    Dark Archive

    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Did anyone mention daredevil boots from UE yet? 10 rounds/day +5 to tumbling for a mere 1,400 gp, and if you succeed, you get an untyped +1 to your attack rolls.

    Here's a level 5 build I would submit.

    Human monk (manoeuvre master) 2/fighter (lore warden) 3

    Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8

    Alternate Racial Traits: Focused Study

    Fig 1 Skill Focus: Acrobatics, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
    Mon 2 Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
    Mon 3 Improved Trip, Vicious Stomp
    Fig 4 Combat Expertise, Dodge, Str +1
    Fig 5 Disorienting Manoeuvre

    At 5th level I have +13 to Acrobatics, so +18 with those boots. Put him up against an ettin (CMD 23) or a bearded devil (CMD 22), both reasonable things for him to face, and he stands a pretty good chance of tumbling around either of them. If you were to take this build up to level 10, Skill Focus would be helping you out again for an additional +3; with a belt of physical perfection +2, he's standing at +22 to Acrobatics, +27 if he's using those boots of his. I look around at some CR 10 creatures and I see that on average, he's looking at between 31 and 33 CMD. Granted, there are some colossal creatures with CMDs reaching into the 40s, but you just can't tumble with those.

    Shadow Lodge

    Mergy wrote:

    Did anyone mention daredevil boots from UE yet? 10 rounds/day +5 to tumbling for a mere 1,400 gp, and if you succeed, you get an untyped +1 to your attack rolls.

    Here's a level 5 build I would submit.

    Human monk (manoeuvre master) 2/fighter (lore warden) 3

    Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8

    Alternate Racial Traits: Focused Study

    Fig 1 Skill Focus: Acrobatics, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
    Mon 2 Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
    Mon 3 Improved Trip, Vicious Stomp
    Fig 4 Combat Expertise, Dodge, Str +1
    Fig 5 Disorienting Manoeuvre

    At 5th level I have +13 to Acrobatics, so +18 with those boots. Put him up against an ettin (CMD 23) or a bearded devil (CMD 22), both reasonable things for him to face, and he stands a pretty good chance of tumbling around either of them. If you were to take this build up to level 10, Skill Focus would be helping you out again for an additional +3; with a belt of physical perfection +2, he's standing at +22 to Acrobatics, +27 if he's using those boots of his. I look around at some CR 10 creatures and I see that on average, he's looking at between 31 and 33 CMD. Granted, there are some colossal creatures with CMDs reaching into the 40s, but you just can't tumble with those.

    Don't forget to bring a set of Boots of Elvenkind when you run out of rounds on the Daredevil Boots.

    Dark Archive

    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Serum wrote:
    Mergy wrote:

    Did anyone mention daredevil boots from UE yet? 10 rounds/day +5 to tumbling for a mere 1,400 gp, and if you succeed, you get an untyped +1 to your attack rolls.

    Here's a level 5 build I would submit.

    Human monk (manoeuvre master) 2/fighter (lore warden) 3

    Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8

    Alternate Racial Traits: Focused Study

    Fig 1 Skill Focus: Acrobatics, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
    Mon 2 Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
    Mon 3 Improved Trip, Vicious Stomp
    Fig 4 Combat Expertise, Dodge, Str +1
    Fig 5 Disorienting Manoeuvre

    At 5th level I have +13 to Acrobatics, so +18 with those boots. Put him up against an ettin (CMD 23) or a bearded devil (CMD 22), both reasonable things for him to face, and he stands a pretty good chance of tumbling around either of them. If you were to take this build up to level 10, Skill Focus would be helping you out again for an additional +3; with a belt of physical perfection +2, he's standing at +22 to Acrobatics, +27 if he's using those boots of his. I look around at some CR 10 creatures and I see that on average, he's looking at between 31 and 33 CMD. Granted, there are some colossal creatures with CMDs reaching into the 40s, but you just can't tumble with those.

    Don't forget to bring a set of Boots of Elvenkind when you run out of rounds on the Daredevil Boots.

    I suppose. I like daredevil because they're cheaper and give the bonus on attack rolls, which stacks again with Disorienting Manoeuvre. Boots of elvenkind are more reliable if you run into a lot of combat, although I'm not sure if every round will require that +5 bonus.


    Unfortunately, the boots share their bonus type with boots of elvenkind and elixir of tumbling. Also, they require that one move through the space of the enemy, not just through their threatened area. So you have to take the +5 DC for that to function. Also, it is until the end of her turn, so you HAVE to be able to move entirely though an enemy's space with a single move action to get a benefit. That is 15' (so at best, getting through if you start standing next to a Large target) or 30' with a -10 (extremely unlikely to succeed, if not impossible). Obviously there are ways to buff speed (such as the ubiquitous haste), but that is adding another layer of investment or requirement to make it work.

    Honestly, I think this is where I disagree with people: I think if you invest heavily in Acrobatics, you should be able to tumble through the enemy's space at full speed with a low chance of failure, getting maximal use out of these boots or Disorienting Maneuver. Others appear to feel that the maneuver is sufficiently useful that moderate to heavy investment should simply allow one to move through the threatened area with a moderate to good chance of success. While I still prefer my Bluff/Intimidate style houserule, I guess this is a different strokes for different folks situation.

    Paizo Employee Digital Products Assistant

    Removed a post. Please don't be rude to other posters.


    if you don't like the chances of acrobatics to move thru an enemy's square, use over-run.

    Silver Crusade

    Fatespinner wrote:

    As the player of a combat maneuver specialist in Pathfinder Society (a brutal pugilist barbarian), I find that I have no issue with the combat maneuver system as written.

    (snip)

    Due to his archetype, he counts as one size category larger for determining what targets he can grapple. With a friendly caster on the table and a wand of enlarge person, his CMB increases to +25 and he can grapple anything Gargantuan or smaller...

    Bruno thought Fatespinner confused Pathfinder with 3.5--grapple have no size limits in Pathfinder.

    Then Bruno looked at Brutal Pugilist archetype.

    Improved Savage Grapple (Ex) wrote:

    At 5th level, the brutal pugilist takes no penalties to Dexterity, attack rolls, and combat maneuver checks when she has the grappled condition. She also is treated as one size larger than her actual size when determining whether she can grapple or be grappled by another creature.

    Bruno think they accidentally base archetype bonus on 3.5 rule set and not Pathfinder.

    Shadow Lodge

    Perhaps Bruno should look at the grapple combat maneuver in the CRB.

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