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4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

And then the meat shield your refuse to heal dies and the monsters start in on the 'support'...

Shoulda healed the meat shield.

-

{In Combat} Heal to save a life, not to 'top off' HP.

{Out of Combat} Heal to 'top off' HP.

Also, a small handful 2-6 Potions of CLW can let you save your own life.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Tempest_Knight wrote:

And then the meat shield your refuse to heal dies and the monsters start in on the 'support'...

Shoulda healed the meat shield.

It wouldn't have helped. He would have died anyway and then you've wasted an action.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Meatshield: "This guy just hit me for 24 HP! Need some healing here!"
Bard: "I can heal you for 1d8+3 or cast Hideous Laughter and likely put him down for 3 rounds so you can beat on him... which do you want?"
Meatshield: "Gimme the Healing!"
Bard: "Yeah, somebody dumped both INT and WIS..."

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tempest_Knight wrote:
{Out of Combat} Heal to 'top off' HP.

Then the healer is out of spells and can't do in combat healing at all. ANd likely won't have out of combat healing because healing spells do NOT meet the amount of damage you take these days.

5/5 *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Katisha wrote:

Meatshield: "This guy just hit me for 24 HP! Need some healing here!"

Bard: "I can heal you for 1d8+3 or cast Hideous Laughter and likely put him down for 3 rounds so you can beat on him... which do you want?"
Meatshield: "Gimme the Healing!"
Bard: "Yeah, somebody dumped both INT and WIS..."

Pretty much exactly this. My oracle could use cure moderate for you for a trivial amount of health or I could drop colour spray/burst of radiance/sound burst to disable the enemy. I know which I am generally going to choose.

3/5

So if someone is the meat shield for the group, and goes first taking the hits. He should pay for all of his own healing?

Now someone is going to get hurt for the group. Shouldn;t the group pay for the healing? Including the meat shield and everyone else.

Or should we play every man for themsevles ignore the cooperate part?

The Exchange 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Finlanderboy wrote:

So if someone is the meat shield for the group, and goes first taking the hits. He should pay for all of his own healing?

Now someone is going to get hurt for the group. Shouldn;t the group pay for the healing? Including the meat shield and everyone else.

Or should we play every man for themsevles ignore the cooperate part?

are we going to do this again? didn't we do this last month?

we can have one side getting upset because they think everyone is saying you have to pay for all your own healing, and the other side thinking that the other side is saying the party has to pay for all the meatshield healing (he get's a free ride)...

That is not what is being said.

Everyone chips in. Everyone contributes to the healing at the table. Even the girl getting the stuffing kicked out of her (be she the meatshield or the squishy).

Shadow Lodge 4/5

nosig wrote:
are we going to do this again? didn't we do this last month?

Do you really expect a different outcome this time?

3/5

nosig wrote:


Everyone chips in. Everyone contributes to the healing at the table. Even the girl getting the stuffing kicked out of her (be she the meatshield or the squishy).

I have never seen that happen once, and I am waiting for others to say bring your own healing.

The Exchange 5/5

TOZ wrote:
nosig wrote:
are we going to do this again? didn't we do this last month?
Do you really expect a different outcome this time?

no...

I fully expect both sides to argue past each other until it devolves into name calling... like it does each time this re-appears.

The Exchange 5/5

Finlanderboy wrote:
nosig wrote:


Everyone chips in. Everyone contributes to the healing at the table. Even the girl getting the stuffing kicked out of her (be she the meatshield or the squishy).
I have never seen that happen once, and I am waiting for others to say bring your own healing.

never seen what?

never seen everyone chip in? or never seen the meatshield have some of his own healing? or never seen a squishy get the stuffing kicked out of them?

3/5

nosig wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
nosig wrote:


Everyone chips in. Everyone contributes to the healing at the table. Even the girl getting the stuffing kicked out of her (be she the meatshield or the squishy).
I have never seen that happen once, and I am waiting for others to say bring your own healing.

never seen what?

never seen everyone chip in? or never seen the meatshield have some of his own healing? or never seen a squishy get the stuffing kicked out of them?

I am sorry. I have never seen the table as awhole chip in for group healing. it ends up being one or two people while everyone looks away.

The Exchange 5/5

Finlanderboy wrote:
nosig wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
nosig wrote:


Everyone chips in. Everyone contributes to the healing at the table. Even the girl getting the stuffing kicked out of her (be she the meatshield or the squishy).
I have never seen that happen once, and I am waiting for others to say bring your own healing.

never seen what?

never seen everyone chip in? or never seen the meatshield have some of his own healing? or never seen a squishy get the stuffing kicked out of them?

I am sorry. I have never seen the table as awhole chip in for group healing. it ends up being one or two people while everyone looks away.

sorry to hear that.

perhaps you are playing in the wrong groups?
My experience is (normally) different from yours...

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

So, in the name of action economy, we let the meat shield die... Great co-operation...

-

We seem to be right back to "Me, Myself, an I" thinking.

Action Economy PC;
I'm not going t 'waste' my action being a member of the team and saving a team-mate.

I don't care that he just took 24 damage that would have gone to me. That is why I tolerate those mooks.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Tempest_Knight wrote:
So, in the name of action economy, we let the meat shield die... Great co-operation...

And yet the combat healer also let the meatshields die.

Because the healing wasn't enough.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Tempest_Knight wrote:
So, in the name of action economy, we let the meat shield die... Great co-operation...

My cleric will heal him, if that's what you REALLY want. She can channel positive energy 9 times per day! Each use of that ability will heal your meat shield (and everyone else in the room, including the evil human your meat shield is fighting) for 1d6 points of damage. She will do that EVERY round if you think it will help. (Well, every round for nine rounds per day.)

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Tempest_Knight wrote:
So, in the name of action economy, we let the meat shield die... Great co-operation...

If you're at that point, better the meatshield that wasn't willing to spend 2 lousey PP than the rest of the party.

You're vastly overestimating the meatshields ability to keep monsters off the rest of the party. PFS parties tend to be heavy melee at times, and if they're in melee range of the monster, the monster is in melee range of them.

-

Quote:
I'm not going t 'waste' my action being a member of the team and saving a team-mate.

If you don't understand the argument, don't insult people by getting it wrong.

You don't understand the argument.

Casting a healing spell is ineffective. Its more likely to result in getting someone killed than any other action most clerics can take, including whacking the thing in the face for melee clerics. The options are not "heal or die" the option is "heal and die anyway" because damage outpaces healing by that much.

Shadow Lodge 1/5

One of my characters is planning on buying the herald and the squire vanities. Basically his 13 year old twin daughters are joining him (Pathfinder missions are so educational!). When the character is retired they will be pcs.

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

What book is a meat shield out of?

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The Modern Lexicon.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Don't bother saving your prestige for raise dead, this thread has plenty for everyone.

5/5 *****

Tempest_Knight wrote:
So, in the name of action economy, we let the meat shield die... Great co-operation...

Nope, we do so in the hope of maximising our chances of victory. Sure I could cast cure moderate on the meat shield for 2d8+3 healing and hope that is enough to keep him up or I could hit multiple enemies with Burst of Radiance potentially blinding them and possibly killing them. Blinded will mean any already in melee will see their expected damage output halved, will become far easier to hit and are freely sneak attackable. Those not already in melee may not be able to do anything at all. That is going to have a far greater impact on the battle than a rather small amount of HP restoration.

4/5

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Tempest_Knight wrote:

So, in the name of action economy, we let the meat shield die... Great co-operation...

-

We seem to be right back to "Me, Myself, an I" thinking.

Action Economy PC;
I'm not going t 'waste' my action being a member of the team and saving a team-mate.

I don't care that he just took 24 damage that would have gone to me. That is why I tolerate those mooks.

The "me, myself and I" thinking is the meat shield believing that the party can't possibly succeed without him.

In the rare cases where that's actually true, yes, healing him is the best course of action. That is not the case nearly as often as some seem to think it is. The rest of the time it's better to stabilize (and only then if necessary), clean up the bad guys, and then heal Meatshield McMartyr back up when it's safe to burn a bunch of wand charges.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

So, any one who plays a meat shield is expected to die for the team?

-

The argument that gets used is, in short, never heal in combat.

That is wrong.

Remember that this is a TEAM game.

In order of priority, the goal is to survive, then the primary success condition, then the secondary success condition.

-

BNW, where did I say that the Meat Shield does not have a Wand of CLW?

Also, by your argument, it is better to allow a TPK because you can't possibly heal fast enough to negate damage.

I am sure that is not what you are trying to say.

4/5

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Tempest_Knight wrote:
So, any one who plays a meat shield is expected to die for the team?

Who said that?

Tempest_Knight wrote:
The argument that gets used is, in short, never heal in combat.

And who said that?

No one is saying "don't heal in combat." A lot of people--myself included--are saying that healing is inefficient compared to nearly any other useful thing a character can do, and should be a last resort.

And 'last resort' doesn't mean 'meat shield down'. It means 'character down' and that we are exceedingly unlikely to resolve the encounter without his contributions.

First exception: they are about to die. Not at -1 and bleeding. One or two points away from negative con. Or down, but the NPC seems likely to hit him while he's down and we are unlikely to drop said NPC before his next turn.

Exception to exception: we think that spending the actions and resources to save the character will likely result in a TPK.

Second exception: there is nothing else I can do that will resolve the encounter more quickly.

I played Bonekeep today. In three of the encounters my halflng slinger warpriest found himself without a clear shot due to the large animal companion and eidolon that were sharing tanking duties (and they were effective tanks almost entirely due to size alone--the enemies just couldn't get around them to get to the rest of us). In those cases, I--gasp!--healed the meat shields.

If I'd had a clear shot, I'd have been shooting. Because killing the baddie faster is healing we don't have to do later. It's one less round for the baddie to get a crit and kill the meatshield dead. It's the most effective way of managing risk, which when it comes down to it, is what this is all about.

5/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
The Modern Lexicon.

Is that PFS legal? I can't find it on the Additional Resources page.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The Modern Lexicon.
Is that PFS legal? I can't find it on the Additional Resources page.

I find it hard to GM without it. Grunts and arm waving only go so far.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

Now, we use your example on a standard Sling user...

1d4 or bring back someone dealing 1d10-2d6...

I can see how it is much better to plink at the baddie instead of <bringing back/keeping from dropping> some one with better damage output.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tempest_Knight wrote:

Now, we use your example on a standard Sling user...

1d4 or bring back someone dealing 1d10-2d6...

Someone doesn't know how the Warpriest works.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

I know how the Warpriest works, it ignores the damage values of weapons and makes an unbalanced example.

A Standard Sling user does not get growing damage die. Using standard example, the math does not support a minimal damage attack over getting high damage potential back in the fight.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Your "standard" example was not the one actually used in play.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

The example given is the same as stating the an Unarmed Strike has better damage output then a Greataxe.

The fact is, there is 1 class that makes that true. Not that it is inherently true.

-

In all non-Warpriest healers, the DPR equation supports helping the Meat Shield.

There are a few spells that grant massive 'table' bonuses, the DPR equations support using them over healing mid- to high-risk of death characters.

-

Are your healers dropping table changers every round?
Are your healers breaking weapon damage like a monk?

If your answer is yes, then THAT healer completely changes the equations...

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

For most of us, the answer IS yes.

Grand Lodge 5/5

TOZ wrote:
I find it hard to GM without it. Grunts and arm waving only go so far.

:)

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Tempest_Knight wrote:

The example given is the same as stating the an Unarmed Strike has better damage output then a Greataxe.

The fact is, there is 1 class that makes that true. Not that it is inherently true.

-

In all non-Warpriest healers, the DPR equation supports helping the Meat Shield.

There are a few spells that grant massive 'table' bonuses, the DPR equations support using them over healing mid- to high-risk of death characters.

-

Are your healers dropping table changers every round?
Are your healers breaking weapon damage like a monk?

If your answer is yes, then THAT healer completely changes the equations...

So, just for a hypothetical question for you:

Meatshield has been taking damage, hurt bad, but still up.
Enemy has been taking damage, hurt bad, still up.

Your turn comes up. The enemy goes before Meatshield.
You can heal Meatshield for 2d8+3 or attack the enemy with:
Trip/Disarm/Sunder/Damage/Status effect

So, heal Meatshield for 12 points, on average, while the enemy, per your example, does 24 points; trip the enemy, giving them either a penalty to hit or the option to take a bunch of AoOs standing back up; disarming said enemy, causing them to either have to draw a backup weapon and only take a single attack, pick up their weapon, again being the target of a bunch of AoOs, or using a provoking unarmed strike; sunder their weapon, giving it, hopefully, the damaged or even broken condition (as you have been working on sundering it already); hit them with something damaging, in hopes that they are close enough to down to go down; or use an ability or cast a spell that can give the enemy, or even a group of enemies, a negative status effect.

Some options mentioned up-thread: Burst of Radience: Affects all targets in its area, enemies also take some damage. Blindness allows a save, damage does not. Use an ability that makes the target staggered, stunned, nauseated, etc.

So, in your world, giving up, say, Spiritual Hammer for a Cure Moderate Wounds, when it won't heal enough damage to make a difference, is the "better" choice? I would rather cast Sanctuary on Meatshield, honestly. Enemy tries to attack, fails his save, he just lost his ability to attack anyone. YMMV.

Now, for my Oracle of Life, healing may be a good option; but that is what he is spec'ed for. He also has other options, like Ghostbane Dirge for use against incorporeals, Remove Sickness to remove some status effects, Bless to help the party hit more often, etc. Maybe, if I can spare the feat and can figure out how to get more channels, he can take Quick Channel (I think it is called), and be able to heal while doing something else. But, with only 7 channels, that is not a terribly efficient use of his channels, at this time...

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Finlanderboy wrote:
So if someone is the meat shield for the group, and goes first taking the hits. He should pay for all of his own healing?

Well, who SHOULD pay for it?

Quote:
Now someone is going to get hurt for the group. Shouldn;t the group pay for the healing? Including the meat shield and everyone else.

How do you manage that in a campaign where any given purchase comes out of exactly one PC's wallet? In my Mummy's Mask group, the first haul of treasure we got, we took 750 off the top for a happy stick before we even split things out to individual PCs. As far as I'm aware, that's not a legal option in PFS.

Quote:
Or should we play every man for themsevles ignore the cooperate part?

What if instead of healing him, I cast marid's mastery on the baddy for -4 to attacks and damage? Is that ignoring the cooperate part? Or what if I kill the enemy so that the tank stops taking damage altogether? Am I still playing "every man for themselves"?

Silver Crusade 4/5

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Yeah, Redward's slinger isn't doing 1d4 damage. I was at that Bonekeep table with him yesterday, and he was hitting for 10-12 points of damage per shot. With the summoner keeping the group hasted in most fights, that's 20+ points of damage per round, as opposed to only 1d8+1 from a Cure Light wand when he healed people.

My "mostly-rogue" was the other front liner in that group, along with the enlarged eidolon and druid's large ape, so I was usually doing sneak attacks for pretty good damage. But I've also got one level of bard and a happy stick on that character, so I could heal some, too.

And in one fight, I actually did have the choice of 1d3 sling damage (halfling sized bullets) or hitting the ape with a happy stick, and I was more than happy to keep the ape alive. That was the fight where the ape went down to negative HP 3 or 4 times in the same fight, but we never let him die. In the end, the ape was meat shielding from the floor, with 3 of us hitting him with healing wands, while Redward's warpriest finished off the damage source pretty much by himself with sling bullets.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

Fromp... you just continued the Unarmed is better then Greataxe fallacy.

Then you support my point... make up your mind.

-

I continue to point out that the whole 'never heal in combat' is wrong.

I will agree that most of the time healing should be secondary.

-

We have had posts stating that you should not have wasted the action healing the Ape because you can't possibly heal it fast enough to negate damage.

That is wrong. (Not the bit about HP lose/gain, the bit about it being a waste)

-

Kinevon, are your healers dropping table changers every round?

No? Then where is the waste?
Yes? Then why aren't you tracking your spells per day?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Tempest_Knight wrote:
Yes? Then why aren't you tracking your spells per day?

Is this like "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Silver Crusade 4/5

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When did anyone ever say that you should NEVER heal in combat? Please quote the post.

You're the one arguing that the meat shields should ALWAYS be healed first, which is the only absolute argument I recall seeing in this thread, though you're not the only one to say it.

My points were:

1. It's completely situational, though I agree with others who say that healing's usually not the best use of actions, especially for characters that have a little bit of healing, but don't specialize in it.
2. Don't underestimate a sling in the right hands. Redward's slinging warpriest might not deal as much damage as a high strength barbarian with a greataxe and Power Attack, but he does deal more damage per round than he can cure. So which will end a fight faster?

In the example I gave, it took at least 2 of us with Cure Light Wounds wands to keep the ape from dying, because the damage was coming pretty fast. He couldn't stay on his feet long enough to run away until we had 3 of us healing him in the same round.

And yes, in this case, he would have died if we hadn't healed him, which is why we did it. But the fact that such a situation came up once doesn't mean that healing's always the first choice action for any character, not even a dedicated healer.

The Exchange 5/5

nosig wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:

So if someone is the meat shield for the group, and goes first taking the hits. He should pay for all of his own healing?

Now someone is going to get hurt for the group. Shouldn;t the group pay for the healing? Including the meat shield and everyone else.

Or should we play every man for themsevles ignore the cooperate part?

are we going to do this again? didn't we do this last month?

we can have one side getting upset because they think everyone is saying you have to pay for all your own healing, and the other side thinking that the other side is saying the party has to pay for all the meatshield healing (he get's a free ride)...

That is not what is being said.

Everyone chips in. Everyone contributes to the healing at the table. Even the girl getting the stuffing kicked out of her (be she the meatshield or the squishy).

yeap... two side talking past each other...

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
nosig wrote:
yeap... two side talking past each other...

Well, I really am trying to be better about it, but look at what I have to work with!

The Exchange 5/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
nosig wrote:
yeap... two side talking past each other...
Well, I really am trying to be better about it, but look at what I have to work with!

agreed.

we've all been there before...
I'm sure we will be again.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

TOZ, can you honestly tell me that a caster is dropping a high impact spell EVERY round?

The Spell per Day limits on the casters keeps that from happening.

IF you are dropping high impact spells EVERY round you must be ignoring your spell limits.

-

Fromper, you don't seem to be reading what I post... please read what I have posted before 'correcting' some thing we generally agree on.

As for the 'don't heal in combat' look up thread, BNW argues that position a couple of times...

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tempest_Knight wrote:
TOZ, can you honestly tell me that a caster is dropping a high impact spell EVERY round?

Yep. Because combats don't last long enough for them not to.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

That is possibly true in high level games, but does not hold true over all tiers of play...

Show me a Level 1-5 that can do that.
Show me a Level 4-7 that can do that.
I would expect that a Level 7-12 could do that with the right build, PrC, ad items.

That also requires a fairly Min-Max'd group of Highly Min-Max'd PCs.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tempest_Knight wrote:
That also requires a fairly Min-Max'd group of Highly Min-Max'd PCs.

Not in my experience.

5/5 *****

Tempest_Knight wrote:

That is possibly true in high level games, but does not hold true over all tiers of play...

Show me a Level 1-5 that can do that.
Show me a Level 4-7 that can do that.
I would expect that a Level 7-12 could do that with the right build, PrC, ad items.

That also requires a fairly Min-Max'd group of Highly Min-Max'd PCs.

I have been doing it since level 3 with my Wizard. It isn't hard, PFS scenarios have a predictable number of combat encounters and one or two are regularly avoidable through the use of clever play or diplomacy.

Also lower level spells remain high impact. Something as simple as Greasing the Giants main weapon or hitting him with Murderous Command can be utterly devastating in a 5-9 or 7-11.

5/5 *****

TriOmegaZero wrote:
nosig wrote:
yeap... two side talking past each other...
Well, I really am trying to be better about it, but look at what I have to work with!

You cannot survive long against density of this magnitude...!

Silver Crusade 3/5

As nosig pointed out, there is a lot of talking past each other from both sides of this discussion. There is a lot of agreement here, but it is being missed.

For the most part, everyone agrees that
1. healing in combat may not be the best action;
2. there are situations where it is the best action; and
3. some builds shouldn't be considered "healers" and are outside the scope of this discussion.

Yes, there are times that healing someone else in combat is the very best thing you can do.

Yes, there are builds (e.g., most life oracles) that should be healing in combat round after round. It is likely to be the most productive thing that this particular character can do for the team.

Yes, there are many other builds where that is not the case. There are many clerics in PFS who flat-out suck at healing. They have been built for another purpose. In most situations, they should stick to that purpose.

Yes, even those builds sometimes should be acting as medic. Again, this is situation dependent.

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