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Flurry of Stars w / Vanishing Trick


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

I was just reading in another thread that when making sneak attacks from invisibility only the first attack is a sneak attack. Is this the same when using Flurry of Stars? Does only the first shuriken get the sneak attack damage?


Yes.

Shadow Lodge

I don't like that answer, try again!

Actually, thank you for the confirmation. I was pretty sure that was the case but wanted to be sure.


What if you used vanishing trick to reposition so you were then in a flanking position, then make the sneak attack, wouldnt all stars then be sneak attacks?


Pendagast wrote:
What if you used vanishing trick to reposition so you were then in a flanking position, then make the sneak attack, wouldnt all stars then be sneak attacks?

You can't flank with ranged attacks, but if you made a full melee attack from flanking, your attacks would all be sneak attacks regardless of being invisible or not.

Shadow Lodge

I wouldn't think so because you can't flank with a ranged weapon in PF from my understanding. I am sort of new to PF though so maybe my understanding is wrong.

Edit: mplindustries beat me to it and obviously my understanding was correct after all lol


what about that new feat in UC (cant recall the name of it) that lets you "range in melee" so lets say you were actually adjacent to the target (so there for were flanking) but you were using flurry of stars, coupled with that feat?

Edit: close quarters thrower


Pendagast wrote:

what about that new feat in UC (cant recall the name of it) that lets you "range in melee" so lets say you were actually adjacent to the target (so there for were flanking) but you were using flurry of stars, coupled with that feat?

Edit: close quarters thrower

No, that feat makes it so you don't provoke an AoO for throwing in melee. It does nothing in regards to flanking.

If there were a way to flank with a ranged weapon (some niche feat I'm not remembering or whatever), then yes, all your shurikens would deal sneak attack damage.

But it would again be due to the flank--it would have nothing to do with being invisible.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As far as I'm aware, there is no feat that lets you flank at range. Nothing actually gets over the "When making a melee attack..." portion of flanking.

Shadow Lodge

All close quarters thrower does is allow you to avoid the AoO when throwing. The rules for flanking specifically state "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner."

I don't particularly like that and if I designed the game it would be different but I'm not and it is in there lol


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I believe the reason that's the case is because of a rogue's sneak attack being tied to flanking.


not looking to get a +2 from flanking, looking for a way to get sneak attacks on all shuriken.

The rule technically doesn't make any sense, if a target is already flanked say by two other combatants how would the target be any more aware of additional shuriken than he was of the first one? (or a follow up bow shot for example)


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

When using vanishing trick and flurry of stars, you aren't getting sneak attack due to flanking. you're getting it due to the target being denied their Dex bonus to AC. Which ends after the first attack


Pendagast wrote:
The rule technically doesn't make any sense, if a target is already flanked say by two other combatants how would the target be any more aware of additional shuriken than he was of the first one? (or a follow up bow shot for example)

The first one isn't because of flanking, it's because of invisibility.

An invisible rogue can ignore his opponents Dex to AC. The first time he stabs someone, or shoots someone, or throws something at someone, invisibility drops, and he no longer ignores Dex to AC for the rest of his attacks.


Also be aware that both vanishing trick and flurry of stars require a swift action to be activated, so you can only do both if you activated vanishing trick on the previous turn.

Shadow Lodge

I'm with you Pendagast about it not making sense but the rules specifically state:

"The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."

So the rogue actually has to be flanking and the rogue can't flank with a ranged weapon.

Ok, lets expand the question a bit. If my Ninja, who has improved unarmed strike, and an ally are on opposite sides of and adjacent to an opponent. Therefore, my Ninja could make unarmed strikes and get the flanking bonus and the ally is getting the flanking bonus. Could he then do a flurry of stars and all of them be sneak attacks?

Shadow Lodge

Are wrote:

Also be aware that both vanishing trick and flurry of stars require a swift action to be activated, so you can only do both if you activated vanishing trick on the previous turn.

That is correct.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

What about the case where the attacking rogue has a level of monk, allowing it to threaten with unarmed strikes. Would not the enemy be "flanked" satisfying the condition for sneak attack (but not providing the +2 to because theI attacker is making a ranged attack not a melee attack)?


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, flanking attacks are still only melee attacks, even if you threaten them with a melee weapon.

Shadow Lodge

The rule doesn't say the attack must be a flanking attack, only that the rogue must be flanking. Does that matter? This is getting confrusing.

That does it...I'm putting this back on the shelf and pulling out my good ol red and blue boxed sets from the 80s. Races as classes mmmmmmmm gooooood lol.


The attack must be flanking to sneak attack.

Being invisible allows sneak attacking by virtue of denying them Dex to AC, but attacking removes invisibility, so they'd only be denied Dex for the first attack you make from invisibility.

But I am not going to say I don't miss the days when Backstabs were actually from behind the enemy (i.e. in their actual back) and they multiplied your base damage instead of adding these anemic little d6s.

Shadow Lodge

mplindustries wrote:
But I am not going to say I don't miss the days when Backstabs were actually from behind the enemy (i.e. in their actual back) and they multiplied your base damage instead of adding these anemic little d6s.

Yeah! Those were the days. *sniffle* <wipes a little tear from the corner of his eye>


PatientWolf wrote:
The rule doesn't say the attack must be a flanking attack, only that the rogue must be flanking. Does that matter?

Flanking is a +2 bonus on melee attacks made under certain circumstances.

If you're not getting the flanking bonus, you're not flanking.

If you're not making a melee attack, you're not flanking.

Shadow Lodge

What you can do, as far as i can see, is Round 1 attack. Vanish.

Round 2 flurry of stars! Throw 1: sneak attack. become visible.
Swift action: vanish
Throw 2. Sneak attack, become visible.


You can't vanish between throw 1 and throw 2, since vanishing and activating flurry of stars both require a swift action.


Are wrote:
You can't vanish between throw 1 and throw 2, since vanishing and activating flurry of stars both require a swift action.

In other editions of D&D, you can use your Move action as a Swift action instead. I honestly don't know if that's the case in Pathfinder or not, but it at least explains why he thought one could do that.


That's the case for 4E (I believe), but not for 3.5 or PF. But since flurry of stars also requires a full-round action, though, I find it a lot more likely that he simply didn't realize that flurry of stars required a swift action to activate in addition to the full-round action to attack :)

Shadow Lodge

Well drat.

Would throw left hand vanish throw right hand work?


I'm not really sure what's going on here and what are you trying to wrangle out of this? Vanishing Trick is just not going to get you multiple Sneak Attacks. It's not designed that way.

In all practical terms, there are three core ways that people deal sneak attack multiple times per turn:

1) Flanking with melee attacks

2) Greater Invisibility

3) Shatter Defenses with someone in the party (perhaps even the rogue themselves) with lots of demoralizing effects and abilities.

Ranged characters with Sneak Attack kind of don't really work unless they're also spellcasters or have one as a best friend (see #2 above). It's just an unfortunately side effect of the rules.


A ninja of 10th level or higher can select the Master Trick Invisible Blade, it acts Greater Invisibility and as Mplindustries has told us you would get your sneak attack against the target for all your attack.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Well, there's False Opening. Requires Close Quarters Thrower, and let's you choose to provoke an opportunity attack and you get +4 AC against it. If they miss they're flat-footed to you until the end of your turn. That would let you full-attack with shuriken and get sneak attacks on all of them... if you dodge the AoO.

Fight defensively (possibly with Crane Style) to make it more reliable?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just to nitpick, False Opening denies the opponent their Dex bonus, so yes, you could Sneak Attack them with a full attack--however, they are not flatfooted. Being flatfooted is something very specific and I think it's one of the most commonly misused game terms.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Bah, you are right, I misremembered it. I am aware of the difference, simply thought it was actually the other.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Would throw left hand vanish throw right hand work?

Full-Round Action: "A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below)."

Free Action: "Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

Swift Actions: "You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action."

So as long as you're not using your swift action to use Flurry of Stars, you can use it in between attacks in a full-attack to trigger Vanishing Trick.

Grand Lodge

But, in the trick's definiton, it isn't stated how the ninja throw her shurikens. If she throws all the three together, all of them should be counted as sneak attacks (as long as they stab)..
On the other hand, mplindustries was right, if the ninja throw all the three one by one..


It is stated in the trick's description how fluryr of stars works. Flurry of Stars works like a full attack action, but allows for extra attacks to be made as part of it. That means it is multiple atatcks, not just one. You have to roll a d20 for each attack and your attack bonus drops by 5 for iterative attacks (except for the extra two granted by the ability). This means only the first will be a sneak attack out of vanish since invisbility will drop afterwards.


To clarify this, since there are many points being made here...

I'm a 10th Level Ninja. I have:

1. Flurry of Stars
2. Invisible Blade (Vanishing Trick too, to get Invisible Blade)

I have a +21 to Stealth.

I'm 10' away from my target. I use a ki point to activate Vanishing Trick. Hopefully I have been hidden via "stealth". Now for 10 rounds I'm invisible and I can attack and remain invisible.

I activate Flurry of Stars and conduct 3 attacks against my target, each with Sneak Attack damage piled on for a successful hit.

Am I correct in the above?

I just noticed that my ranged attack bonus is only +4. Yikes. I may not be hitting that often as it is. Hmm...I wonder how I can improve that...


mplindustries wrote:
Just to nitpick, False Opening denies the opponent their Dex bonus, so yes, you could Sneak Attack them with a full attack--however, they are not flatfooted. Being flatfooted is something very specific and I think it's one of the most commonly misused game terms.

Just double-checking, if the OP has initiative before his foe, the foe is flat-footed right?

So, on the first round, if the OP goes first, all three shuriken would count as sneak attacks, right? No invisibility required (yet)?

~~~

And... did you really add your 10th level BAB together with your dex bonus (for ranged attacks) and only come up with 4?


Zsz'zen wrote:
Am I correct in the above?

Yes, as long as you don't try to activate invisible blade and flurry of stars in the same turn (both require swift actions to activate). So, if you activate invisible blade on turn 1, you can use flurry of stars with sneak attack on all attacks on turns 2-10 without losing your invisibility.


Apocalypso wrote:

Just double-checking, if the OP has initiative before his foe, the foe is flat-footed right?

So, on the first round, if the OP goes first, all three shuriken would count as sneak attacks, right? No invisibility required (yet)?

That's right.


If I surprise attacked from stealth and used flurry of stars on three separate targets, does each target take sneak attack damage if hit?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
As far as I'm aware, there is no feat that lets you flank at range. Nothing actually gets over the "When making a melee attack..." portion of flanking.

This third party feat, Ranged Flank, allows you to make ranged attacks with the flanking bonuses, and it also allows you to make sneak attacks with it. Seeing as how it's third party stuff, the GM would have to allow it to be used for their campaign.

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