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'Best' at Two Weapon Fighting?


Advice

Taldor

Having a discussion with someone who want to dual wield. He thinks Rogue (Combat tricks and Dex) I say Ranger (forgo some requirements). I'd like to get some thoughts on it to help him with his next character. Thanks!


Fighter.

Weapon Training can apply to both wielded weapons. Tons of available feats to get what you need. Armor training allows you to make use of that high dex with heavy armor. Multiple archetypes to support the style (Brawler, Mobile fighter, Two Weapon Warrior, Weapon Master to name off the top of my head).

Yes, rangers have lots of things going for them and are a certain second choice but in terms of pure fighting ability fighter wins.

Lantern Lodge

I dislike ranger because i view it as fighter light when it comes to this but it does have its values out of combat unlike a fighter also rangers are to specialized though if they do fight there favored enemy and on the favored terain then there a force not to be take lightly.
The rogue has its flaws as well and its strengths too. Its greatest flaw is its best strength being sneak attack. Sneak attack is hard to get every round unless u rely pile on the feats and / or have a competent group willing to flank with u.
Between the 2 though id go for the ladder and make it a Rogue ranger which is a very great build. It allows the use of rangers companion to be its flanking buddy with out the great need of feats plus against certain targets in certain areas it will just rock face. The trick sadly with this and all builds that have multiple classes that have a pet is balance.


They are pretty different characters in terms of TWF.

A TWF Ranger relies on traditional sources of extra damage. Strength, Power Attack, and various static bonuses (Favored Enemy, Weapon Enhancement, Morale bonuses, etc). They benefit greatly from both bonuses to attack and bonuses to damage, and their lack of pre-reqs, Medium Armor Proficiency, and better Fortitude save and hitpoints make them a less MAD character.

The TWF Rogue cares much more about extra attack bonus and Sneak Attack. Their damage will be coming almost entirely from SA, as they will be Dexterity based (since they can't skip TWF prerequisites), they have a 3/4 BaB instead of Full + Favored Enemy, and don't have Favored Enemy or spells to buff up their damage otherwise. Feat requirements are a major issue, since there are so many vitally important ones (TWF, Weapon Finesse, Iron Will, etc) and they can't get them all as Rogue Talents. You may have to spend even more on ways to get Sneak Attack, just in case you can't flank at a given time.

In terms of combat effectiveness, the Ranger will be far better against Favored Enemies, in situations where Sneak Attack cannot be achieved, and when you don't have a massive amount of +attack. Rogues are better if you can be sure to always get Sneak Attack and have plenty of outside help for +attack. Of course, Vivisectionists are in many cases going to be even better than Rogues in those circumstances, but that wasn't a listed choice.


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Aazen wrote:
Having a discussion with someone who want to dual wield. He thinks Rogue (Combat tricks and Dex) I say Ranger (forgo some requirements). I'd like to get some thoughts on it to help him with his next character. Thanks!

For Dual wielding, just about any class can pull it off, just that some have nice advantages.

Rogue:

Pro:

Tons of Skills
Sneak Attack
Nice choice of tricks to be versatile

Cons:

Lower BAB
Lower HD
Honestly overshadowed by other classes now

Ranger

Pro:

Full BAB
Combat style extra feats
Still plenty of Skills
Back up casting

Con:

Jack of All Trades syndrome
Not usually as social as the Rogue

Fighter:

Full BAB
TONS of feats, which for TWF there are a lot to choose from
Best selection of weapons or armor
Many class specific combat abilities or feats

Cons:

Garbage on skills: (the main soldier type class does not have PERCEPTION in class...)
Outside of combat has less use than others.
Really those skill issues deserve to be added twice, 2 + int/level and no Perception...

Of all the classes though I would go Ninja.

You get a weird combo of Rogue/Range

Pro:

Ki Pool is freakin nasty. Invisible and such is very useful
Sneak Atacks
Deadly up close or ranged (Wakasashis or shurikens)
Lots of Skills
Honestly just plain better than a Rogue in my opinion

Con:

Still 3/4 BAB
Still lower HD (although with their level of stealth it does not matter)


Synthesist. Extra arm evolutions. Profit.

Someone had to do it..

Sczarni

Here are some things to consider.

Bear in mind it’s beneficial for all classes to use either light weapons or a double weapon. You want your feats & abilities to apply to both weapons (make them one, or the same) and you want to minimize penalties (make them light if using 2 single weapons). To maximize damage the Rogue should consider Knifemaster Arcetype. The River Rat trait will also help the Rogue (+1 damage w/daggers). Rangers & Fighters will benefit more from higher threat range weapons (like kukri’s) as their static bonunses are multiplied on crits, where as Sneak Attack isn’t.
Level 11 (assume TWF, ITWF & GTWF when applicable)
Rogue:
BAB +8/+3, or +9/+9/+4/+4 (TWF +Flank +W. Focus)
Damage: +6d6 Sneak Attack (d8’s Knifemaster)

Ranger:
BAB +11/+6/+1, or +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6 (TWF + FE + W.Focus)
Damage: +6 Favoured Enemy

Fighter:
BAB +11/+6/+1, or +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 (TWF + W.Training + W.Focus + W. Focus, Greater)
Damage: +4 (Weapon Training +2, Weapon Specialization +2)

The above numbers are “base” with only the appropriate modifiers & penalties for TWF and the indicated feats and class features. I threw the Rogue a bone and assumed a +2 for Flanking because that’s how they are going to most often get their Sneak Attack damage round after round, generally speaking.

As you can see the Ranger & Fighter are not only more likely to hit then the Rogue, they also get two more opportunities to do so each round. If we gave them the Flanking bonus their 5th & 6th attacks would actually be more likely to hit then the Rogues 3rd and 4th attack (in the case of the Ranger against a Favoured Enemy his worst attacks are almost as good as the Rogues best attacks).

It gets even better for the Ranger. Consider that at level 11 he/she has access to Instant Enemy, meaning the BBEG is always going to be receiving Favoured Enemy treatment.
The Ranger also gets to ignore those pesky DEX pre-requisites, meaning he can pump his CON for more HP or his WIS for more Spells and better WILL saves. I’m going to assume that the Fighter & Ranger will have equal Strength scores, and the Rogue will probably have DEX as their primary attribute (assume 18’s to start in all 3 cases – none of which is included in the figures above).

Granted there are some magic items that could help boost the Fighters static damage to bring it on par or maybe surpass that of the Ranger. Against specific foes the Ranger will deal the most damage. Against EVERY foe the Fighter will be the best (or at least most consistant). In specific situations the Rogue will have the opportunity to land the most devasting single strike (+48 if they all turn up 8’s).

Once you start considering the intangibles it really comes down to whichever type of Character you or your friend prefer to play. For me personally it's not all about damage - so if I was to play a Rogue for example I would forsake my own advice and skip Knifemaster (and play a Ninja instead - because Ninja's are friggin cool!).


Without question it's the Magus.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Vivisectionist for two levels, then Two-weapon fighter.

Duel two-hand Sawtooth Sabres.


I would say mobile fighters or dawnflower dervishs fighters. That minipounce can be very good.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If combat ability is the focus and you want rogue like then Ranger is the way to go. I actually can't see why anyone would take a rogue.


Half-Orc Ranger with Orc Double Axe, Toothy, 18 STR and a Wand of Lead Blades. I took a 1 level dip into Fighter for the extra feat, and the ability to use Sash of the Warrior, so that I could afford to burn the feat on Boon Companion at 5th level to have a flanking buddy.

Two weapon fighting at only a -2, full BAB progression, ignore the pre-reqs for DEX, and each weapon is doing 2d6 base damage, plus a bite doing 1d4+1/2 STR.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Sorry, but the Rogue loses the two weapon fighting race too.

Oh, poor Rogue.


Ahem, I would respectfully like to submit my two-weapon fighting invulnerable rager as a pretty strong candidate:

The Link For His Madness Can Be Found Here

10 attacks (11 with haste), insane accuracy, insane damage, and can also pounce.

Add on Monk Robe's to make unarmed strikes into 1d8 or get Brawler rage power to make them 1d6 and basically go to town.

Shadow Lodge

That's nifty, but it's very vulnerable since it relies on DR but skimps on hp, quickly runs into the heavy prerequisities of TWF feats(unless you go full dex, but that requires an agile amulet of mf) and assumes one can put claws on one's feet.

It works well in theory, but I'd hesitate to play thing. No GM I know would allow feet claws(unless you get an extra pair of legs) and the massive dex means either skimping on other stats or pretty great access to magic items.

But yeah, twf barbarians can be pretty beastly. It's the only class other than ranger where you offset all the penalties. Not through cheating with feats, but via pure power.

Anyhow, I'd like to offer a shield-bashing ranger to the mix as well. Access to Shield Master on level 6 means that they suddenly just sort of forget about the penalties everybody else have to take in full.


hehehe, I don't put 'claws' on my feet...I put them on my hands and twf with my feet (perfectly allowed and completely legal).

And to be honest, a barbarian with this build doesn't even miss out on hp either. Keep in mind, a barbarian only needs to invest in his physical stats (meaning all mental stats are effectively dump stats). A human barbarian gets 5 skill points per level, and a barbarian skill list is so small that it can easily be accommodated by that amount.

A fighter class can also be pretty powerful as well (with their weapon training and specialization bonuses...but I personally don't care much for fighter's due to their crappy skill list...however, a lore warden is much more appealing).

Shadow Lodge

Wait, yeah, twf with feet would work.

God, the heck with this game sometimes.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You can Two Weapon fight with Boot Blades.
Strix is the easiest way to do it.


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Aazen wrote:
Having a discussion with someone who want to dual wield. He thinks Rogue (Combat tricks and Dex) I say Ranger (forgo some requirements). I'd like to get some thoughts on it to help him with his next character. Thanks!

There are two ways to read the question.

"Who will be better at combat, a TWF rogue or a TWF ranger?" I'd say that a ranger will deal more damage more consistently, have better defenses, and generally contribute more in combat than the rogue.

"Who benefits more from TWF, a rogue or a ranger?" In that case, I'd say the rogue. A ranger (or any other full BAB class who's primary combat stat is strength) has simpler routes to high damage, such as high strength and power attack, while a rogue is heavily dependent on sneak attack, and therefore number of attacks, to deal damage.


Krodjin wrote:

Fighter:

BAB +11/+6/+1, or +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 (TWF + W.Training + W.Focus + W. Focus, Greater)
Damage: +4 (Weapon Training +2, Weapon Specialization +2, Greater Weapon Specialization +2)

Fixed that for you

P.S. I suggest with all the feats you get, get the sorcerer bloodline feats to get additional boost to strength.

Sczarni

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Krodjin wrote:

Fighter:

BAB +11/+6/+1, or +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 (TWF + W.Training + W.Focus + W. Focus, Greater)
Damage: +4 (Weapon Training +2, Weapon Specialization +2, Greater Weapon Specialization +2)

Fixed that for you

P.S. I suggest with all the feats you get, get the sorcerer bloodline feats to get additional boost to strength.

I didn't realize Fighters could skip prerequisites.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Krodjin wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Krodjin wrote:

Fighter:

BAB +11/+6/+1, or +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 (TWF + W.Training + W.Focus + W. Focus, Greater)
Damage: +4 (Weapon Training +2, Weapon Specialization +2, Greater Weapon Specialization +2)

Fixed that for you

P.S. I suggest with all the feats you get, get the sorcerer bloodline feats to get additional boost to strength.

I didn't realize Fighters could skip prerequisites.
Did you cut off at level 11 just to not factor that feat in, I don't catch why you chose level 11.

Because that's what he chose for the rogue and ranger.

And for the record that's the cut off for PFS I think.


Paladins can be surprisingly humorous TWFers due to Smite. Cavaliers are similar in that regard and still get bonus combat feats, but the Paladin bonus to hit from CHA while Smite is active is a major boost.

Fighter definitely does take the cake, though, especially if you can 2 level dip into Vivisectionist for the bonus SA damage and ability to dual wield 2h weapons.

Sczarni

I only chose level 11 because that was when the Fighter & Ranger got their third iterative attacks. I didn't put much more thought in it then that.
PFS does go to level 12 (haven't got there myself in PFS).

So keep in mind that next level the Fighter can take Greater Weapon Specialization.


Krodjin wrote:

Level 11 (assume TWF, ITWF & GTWF when applicable)

Rogue:
BAB +8/+3, or +9/+9/+4/+4 (TWF +Flank +W. Focus)
Damage: +6d6 Sneak Attack (d8’s Knifemaster)

Shouldn't Knifemaster be "d8 (knives)/d4 (other weapons)" for sneak attacks?

My husband and I play paired TWF sword dancers. Mine is a Two Weapon Warrior fighter with a rogue dip, and his is a rogue with a barbarian dip. He focuses on movement and acrobatics, maneuvering around the battlefield and getting into flanking position. I focus on staying in the think of combat: heavier armor, higher attack and damage, improved critical threats, and two-weapon feint.

They are two very different approaches to the same concept.


Ranger dual wielding Klars

Sczarni

Gwen Smith wrote:
Krodjin wrote:

Level 11 (assume TWF, ITWF & GTWF when applicable)

Rogue:
BAB +8/+3, or +9/+9/+4/+4 (TWF +Flank +W. Focus)
Damage: +6d6 Sneak Attack (d8’s Knifemaster)
Shouldn't Knifemaster be "d8 (knives)/d4 (other weapons)" for sneak attacks?

I suggested he use both Daggers & Knifemaster arcetype (d8's), but listed d6's as a reference to the baseline damage done by a "standard" Rogue.

You are of course 100% correct about the Knifemaster sneak attack dice. If one does go Knifemaster then the River Rat trait is a very strong option as well.

Sczarni

Zolthux wrote:
Ranger dual wielding Klars

Interesting idea - how does the shield bonus to AC work with that?

I assume you'd only get the shield bonus from one Klar as shield bonuses don't stack with themselves? But when TWF with Klars would you lose the shield bonus in a round you attack with both weapons?


By far my favorite dual-wielding build is Barbarian 1 / Two-Weapon Warrior 19. Get 17 DEX, go with a Mithral Full Plate of Speed, and you're basically a walking, talking blender. :)

* Easy to maintain a high AC, especially when you can do Defensive Flurry, so you can still be a viable "tank".

* Improved Balance means that your off-hand can be 1-H instead of Light, which not only opens up some nice options but is also a great image for role-play.

* You get one of the ONLY abilities in the game that lets you attack TWICE as a standard action - Doublestrike!!

* Equal Opportunity + Combat Reflexes + Lunge = BRUTAL!!

* TWO-WEAPON REND!! *drools* Which CAN be used as part of a standard action because of Doublestrike, or even as part of an attack of opportunity because of Equal Opportunity! Absolutely beautiful.

* 40 ft. movement speed + Haste when needed + Lunge = NOTHING ESCAPES YOU...

Here's a level 15 example. Scroll down to page 2 to witness the RIDICULOUS attacks. *giggles with giddy excitement*

Dual-Wielding done RIGHT in Pathfinder


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Sinatar wrote:
By far my favorite dual-wielding build is Barbarian 1 / Two-Weapon Warrior 19. Get 17 DEX, go with a Mithral Full Plate of Speed, and you're basically a walking, talking blender. :)

I disagree. If this character tries to talk, someone should tell him to shut up and blender something:)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It would just sound like BRRRAAAAAAAZZTTTTTTT anyway. Damn blenders gaining sentience.

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