The text is under the fighter class so...nope, MCing won't work. Even if you ignore that, it does say it must be at the same time you gain a new bonus feat for the level so...once again, not really working with the whole MCing deal.
The fighter class does not list them as bonus feats, in the bonus feat class ability. it is all in one section the only feats that can be retrained are from the one at first level and every even level after that.
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned.
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat
the bonus feats are clearly listed and outlined by class progression.
Do you take this line to mean that witches (for example) actually are proficient with light armor, since they aren't monks, sorcerers, or wizards?
My Grandpa used to tell me "just because you can, doesn't mean you should".
By RAW this is open for interpretation as far as I can tell. In a home game I would probably permit this if I couldn't find an Archetype that did pretty much the same thing. It wouldn't be OP as far as I can tell.
I will go on the record here as saying that it would be poor form to try and pull this at a PFS table though. Turns out Grandpa knew what he was talking about.
The problem lies in the wording of the armor and shield feats, that little note at the end says this is a fighter bonus feat. This is not included with the weapon prof feats. if that line should be removed All would be well as far as changing of those but "a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a (Fighter)bonus feat he has already learned." The word fighter need to be added there to prevent the Multiclass or even race issue.
As it is now it just says bonus feat. and it does not say 4 fighter levels(I think it save to say it is meant the swap to be at fighter level 4, fighter level 8.)
So 5th level fighter\monk
Race bonus feats such as skill focus for half elf is bad taste.
The way it is now a 4th level monk fighter can do the change
(I am not sure how I feel about that either but it is not exactly game breaking either.)
This should be FAQ and errata is needed.
ok so if think that the wording allows for the swapping of any bonus feat then lets look at another part of that class ability.
The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability.
the fighter also has the class ability "Armor Training" to have training means you are proficient which would mean those feats are required for that class ability and so then could not be retrained.
the rogue ability
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
doesn't say rogue level either, so does the rogue just use class level,
I think not!!!
The issue here is that the fighter ability to gain bonus combat feats and then the ability to swap out the feats is that they go by the name "bonus feats"
so lets look at the fighter bonus feat ability.
Fighter Bonus Feat text:
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
So, it clearly states that the fighter can retrain bonus feats.
I'm not going to dispute that, because it's clearly written in the ability.
The awkward thing here, is the fighter ability to gain Bonus combat feats is titled "Bonus Feat". The extra armor proficiency are actual bonus feats, a completely seperate game mechanic.
so the question we should be asking is more along the lines of Does the fighter bonus feat swapping ability refer to the fighter class perk Titled "bonus feat" or to the completely different mechanic of bonus feats.
if you look at the following Interpretation of the fighter bonus feat ability, This is how I feel it was intended. It says exactly the same as the original, just makes the assumption that "bonus feat" in the fighter class ability refers to the fighter class ability "bonus feat" instead of the bonus feat mechanic from character creation.
Fighter Combat Feats re-write:
Combat Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a combat feat in addition to feats gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new combat feat in place of a combat feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the combat feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new combat feat for the level.
Essentially replacing the word "bonus" with "combat" to give the ability distinction from a different mechanic by the same name.
Again this is my interpretation of the fighter bonus feat rule. And is my belief that this is what was intended.
as was mentioned earlier in the thread, fighters get enough feats, they are the undisputed masters of feat versatility... they get so many feats, I'd consider "nose picker" as a feat at some level, because they can. Unless you're some crazy power gamer this won't impact your character in the slightest.
Nevan Oaks wrote:
I've already considered this. You absolutely could apply this logic to disagree with my latest interpretation--especially since designers have made it clear in the past that when class abilities refer to level, they almost always refer to class levels, not character levels.
...the question we should be asking is more along the lines of "Does the fighter bonus feat swapping ability refer to the fighter class perk titled 'bonus feat' or to the completely different mechanic of bonus feats?"
That's a perfectly fine question, one which I would like to know the answer to as much as anyone else. Perhaps we could FAQ the OP and see what happens?
Ravingdork, I earnestly believe you've found an interesting collection of syntax rather than a new option for fighters. However I think there's some real value in your question when it comes to designing variant fighter (archetypes and such). It would clearly be fair (with GM approval) to swap out one feat for another.
so you could swap out heavy and medium armor prf. for say combat expertise and your choice of improved X that require same. or maybe for 2 weapon fighting and double slice. Or weapon finesse and dodge...
I FAQ'd the OP, cause I think once that question is answered, it will clear up the questions about the fighter bonus feat ability.
Simply put, if this were RAI they would have made it clear this was an option. They wouldn't have "hidden" it waiting for someone to just stumble over the technicality of the wording and put two and two together.
My group hates me sometimes for just this reason, they come up with something like this, some loophole that allows them to do something unnecessary and I tell them no because I refuse to let my game turn into MTG.
As for game unbalancing I can't see switching out the feats being a problem. In fact I think it may be more detrimental than beneficial in most cases.
Matthew Downie wrote:
So, I drop Heavy Proficiency at L4, Medium Proficiency at L8, gaining two bonus feats... Then, for my next level, I dip into, say, Cavalier, and get my proficiencies back? Hm.
Yep total cheese. That why I said "automatically have Medium ArmorProficiency as a bonus feat." the words bonus feat need to be removed.
Armor Training has nothing to do with Armor Proficiency just as Armor Mastery has nothing to do with Armor Training. example are in archetypes like the dragoon that trade armor training away for other ability but still end up with armor mastery. It does not make any sense. The the way the rule are setup that is the truth. The only requirement is to be fighter level X and to wear armor. It says nothing about Proficiency.
It is a loop hole that was found that some one could use and it is valid until corrected. Unless GM house rules RAI as we know what they are.
I'd allow this "loophole" because it isn't broken and it adds customizability to the poor old fighter whom has nothing other than his feats to keep him safe.
However, dipping for extra ammo to swap out a second time would be an obvious attempt to cheat and wouldn't be allowed at my table.
Not even kind of. If you get the feats from the Cavalier class they're hardly fighter bonus feats. As a pure fighter you can't swap out feats you did not choose as bonus feats because they aren't chosen as bonus feats. What makes you think you can swap out feats gained as a completely different class?
Multi classin PRD, CRB:
I don't think I'd allow it, if just because if you allowed swapping out armor proficiency, you could logically make the same claim for weapon proficiency, and since the weapon proficiency feats apply to only one weapon, you could just toss out the weapons you don't like or are never gonna use to give yourself even more feats for absolutely no impact to your character whatsoever.
Agree. Hitting FAQ to patch this.
So my two-handed fighter can nab himself a bonus feat by trading in his shield proficiency at level 4? Makes sense.
Same for a two-weapon warrior? Makes sense, since TWF is a bit of a feat tax for him.
Now, if your guy wants to wear light armor (because, for example, he's one of the two archetypes mentioned above, both of which trade in their armor training) does he get TWO bonus feats for trading in both heavy and medium armor proficiencies at level 8?
No you can't. Read the Feats.
He's right. They don't get weapon proficienies as bonus feats but they are (considered) proficient in them automatically. So it's a class feature of the warrior classes.
Weapon Proficiency Feat wrote:
Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.Versus
Armour Proficiency Feat wrote:
Special: Barbarians, clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, and rangers automatically have Medium Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat.
I like it to make armour light fighters more easily feasible.
As someone mentioned-- the Bonus Feats section of the Fighter's abilities makes it clear that he has to swap out the feat AT THE SAME TIME he gets his fighter bonus feat. If you're trying to claim that a mutliclass fighter can swap out feats he gets from other classes, make sure that you character is actually getting bonus feats every four levels, because a 1-level dip in monk followed by three levels of fighter would mean that at character level 4, you're not swapping anything out because you didn't get a bonus feat this level. And because your fighter bonus feats are now out of sync with your even levels, you'd better dip again or you're never swapping anything out.
your would have to trade them 1 at a time and in order
level 4 tower shield
Also Replacement feats you pick. You must have the requirements for it at level 1. So it is a short list of possible replacements.
The question refers to feats "gained at level one", but I don't see why the ruling wouldn't apply, if RDork's crazy scheme turns out to be legal.
I don't see why the ruling wouldn't apply, if RDork's crazy scheme turns out to be legal.
More an observation than a "crazy scheme." I don't play a lot of fighters and don't get much benefit out of it even if they rule in favor of my proposed interpretation (aside from knowing the truth of intent).
Yes... I'm not sure if it's in the official FAQ or not, but Paizo has made this clear.Based on that, I would say that Fighter Bonus Feat Re-Training would NEVER apply to Bonus Feats from other sources (Race, other Classes), albeit I would say this deserves it's own FAQ given 'Bonus Feats' are pretty distinct to talking about 'levels'.
Still, that doesn't mean it is clear whether Re-Training only applies to Bonus Feats from the Bonus Feat Class Ability,
I was also unaware of the possibility per RAW, and had assumed it was just restricted to retraining the Class Feature named "Bonus Feats" (and NOT extra ones granted by specific Archetypes), but I don't see why it's actually overpowered or anything... Giving up Heavy Armor Proficiency pretty much means taking a significant AC hit, and the same goes for Shield Feats. That you can only do this every 4 levels means it's going to be a pretty gradual effect... And over-all I am fine with Fighters getting some more Feats, they don't really have THAT many more than many other Classes with their own Bonus Feats, and if you consider Barbarian Rage Powers to be Bonus Feats then Fighters are really only 1 Feat ahead. (well, 2 or 3 if you count Heavy Armor/Shield prof's, but some Barb Archetypes also gain those without losing Rage Powers).
Nevan Oaks wrote:
"see bold" this means by RAW that it is only based on class levels and bonuses.
exceptions to this exception are clearly stated in the class ability; uncanny dodge, animal companion (just to name a couple)
Keep in mind that losing the Tower Shield Proficiency feat equates to zero loss for most characters as most characters do not use tower shields. Giving up Shield Proficiency is equivalent to -1 AC since a non-proficient user (such as a spellcaster) can make use of a +X mithral buckler with no penalties whatsoever.
Losing those armor feats, however, those either end up becoming a big hit to AC, or to other areas of the character (as you change your point buy and gear to make up for the loss).
But High Dex fighter may be your thing. If you're planning out something like an Archer archetype (which loses the armor training anyway), in which case losing the shield proficiencies and then something like heavy armor might be a boon. Might free up feats for dodge, mobility, and something like Shot on the Run. Makes it that much easier to be light on your feet with a mithral breastplate.
I'm with this and what LadyMelo said which also touches on this. The retraining is listed in the Bonus Feats class feature, and thus refers to bonus feats gained with this class feature only.
Now, I've always wished Fighter Bonus Feats were instead part of a larger thing called Fighter Talents or whatever, where choosing a combat feat was simply an option, and renaming the class feature would make the ability written clearer (for those whom reasonable interpretation as is is not enough). But that's a different matter for a different time.
And as noted it might not be so broken anyway even if you allowed it, given you can only do it every four levels, and there's only so many feats worth retraining or fighter concepts worth building as lightly armored.
That what I noticed as i was making examples. here a list of the feats you could swap out for from core book. You can get more but you have to have picked the feat at level 1.
Level 4 choices core rule book only
These are for multi class
Provided you picked the Prerequisites at level 1 or did not get rid of the prerequisite
Basically you are limited to swapping it out with any combat feat that you can get at level 1 only.
That is incorrect and the relevant FAQ has already been posted. You can take any feat you qualify for at the time of the swap. You can drop feats in one chain to pick up feats in another so long as you meet the prerequisites at the time you take the new bonus feat.
Thank bob I missed that chunk. That leave it open to a bit more power then I was thinking,and could be abused with armor feats from level 1. I think that why in 3.5 you where limited to the a feat that could be use at the level it was attained. But retraining was optional rules that everyone could use. I think they where in the unearth arcane book back then.
how can it be abused from level 1? you can't do feat re-training until level 4. come on, people ;-)
although i would say it's pretty likely the scope of the ability is solely in reference to bonus feats from the same ability (not the class as a whole, or broader bonus feats), it does seem worth noting that there are plenty of fighter archetypes which do give up armor proficiencies and particularly tower shield (which is really the most niche proficiency) to gain other abilities. a vanilla fighter/ a fighter who retains these proficiency feats later trading them out for another feat is an ability with costs, both the armor feats themself AND the opportunity to take one of said archetypes. i don't think there is really much of a balance argument against it, certainly given that you are only gaining this bonus feat at 4th level, 8th level, etc, albeit the issue of intent being restricted to the class ability is still valid (and likely the case).