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Arcane Bond Item Crafting


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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I know I can enchant one enhancement to an Arcane Bond item in PFS at 50% of MSRP cost.

Can I put a 2nd or 3rd enchantment on the bonded item at the usual 50% additional markup (75% of MSRP)? I am assuming that the answer to this is "No."

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Custom Item Creation of any kind is not allowed. This includes 'fusing' say, a Belt of Strength and Belt of Dwarvenkind for a Belt of Strong Dwarves(which I believe is what you were asking in the OP).

You could however, make a +1 Frost Keen Longbow as your arcane bond(if that was your bonded item). Non-named weapons and armor are kind of the exception to the rule.

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Actually, I was thinking of Lesser Ring of Spell Storing fused with Ring of Spell Knowledge III that gave the ability to cast Cure Moderate Wounds for a fighter/sorcerer/Eldritch Knight as a 3rd level spell.

The Lesser Ring of Spell Storing is a filter for casting my otherwise underutilized 1st level spell slots, since I chose to use Still Spell to avoid Arcane Spell Failure.

So I expect the answer is still "No." But figured it's better to ask - and possibly be pleasantly surprised.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The answer is still no. Thanks for asking in a civil manner. I've seen several posts that have gotten out of hand this week and good to see civility starting to return. Thanks for that.

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Mike. Could we get a sentence tacked onto to the FAQ for arcane bonds expressing this? I have had this question from players too. It is a common misconception that wizards with arcane bonds can bypass the crafting ban as AdAstra asked.

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Sean H wrote:
You could however, make a +1 Frost Keen Longbow as your arcane bond(if that was your bonded item). Non-named weapons and armor are kind of the exception to the rule.

Does this all have to happen at once? I've seen people say upgrading the arcane bond is one-time only. Does that include 'progressive' enchanting?

Meaning, if I have my masterwork longbow arcane bond, and I've got the appropriate level and spellcraft and whatnot, I can make it +1 Frost for 4,000gp (assuming I have enough fame to purchase a 8,375gp item). Then in a few levels once I get more fame, can I make it a +1 Frost Keen Longbow by paying an additional 5,000gp? (Again, assuming enough fame to purchase an 18,375gp item)

The Arcane Bond FAQ doesn't seem to limit it, it just says to use the magic item FAQ. The magic item FAQ seems to be talking about named items and wondrous items, it seems like normal weapons are not really addressed.

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Steg wrote:
Sean H wrote:
You could however, make a +1 Frost Keen Longbow as your arcane bond(if that was your bonded item). Non-named weapons and armor are kind of the exception to the rule.

Meaning, if I have my masterwork longbow arcane bond, and I've got the appropriate level and spellcraft and whatnot, I can make it +1 Frost for 4,000gp (assuming I have enough fame to purchase a 8,375gp item). Then in a few levels once I get more fame, can I make it a +1 Frost Keen Longbow by paying an additional 5,000gp? (Again, assuming enough fame to purchase an 18,375gp item)

Correct. You can still upgrade normally, but you can ONLY upgrade weapons, armor, or a wonderous item of +X(A belt of incredible dexterity +2 to +4, for example, but NOT bracers of archery lesser to greater).

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Sean H, he was asking about how much it will cost him, not whether or not the upgrade could be made. And if you look at his numbers, he's applying the "crafting discount" to every step.

This is incorrect. The FAQ is unclear (and references another part of the FAQ that I'm not sure even exists anymore), but you only get the "discount" on the first enchant. If you want to upgrade more later, you pay full price like everyone else.

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Jiggy wrote:

Sean H, he was asking about how much it will cost him, not whether or not the upgrade could be made. And if you look at his numbers, he's applying the "crafting discount" to every step.

This is incorrect. The FAQ is unclear (and references another part of the FAQ that I'm not sure even exists anymore), but you only get the "discount" on the first enchant. If you want to upgrade more later, you pay full price like everyone else.

This was my understanding too of the FAQ. It only says you get the discount when upgrading a mundane item to a magical one.


Lab_Rat wrote:
This was my understanding too of the FAQ. It only says you get the discount when upgrading a mundane item to a magical one.

Would it be allowable for a player to deliberately destroy/lose a low cost magical arcane bond (since the original item was provided free, it can't be sold), pay the 200g/level + mw cost for replacing their arcane bond, and then pay the discounted craft price for converting their mundane item to a highly enchanted arcane bond? This could be cost effective depending upon the particulars of the improved item being sought, eg a +1 to a +3 equivalent item.

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Sigh.....I knew that would come up at some point. Other than being cheesy and smelling slightly of cheating the system....I see no rules stopping you from doing such thing. HOWEVER, I am just a guy behind a keyboard. I would ask Mike that question.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Although I don't have a reference, I believe the idea is that even if you go straight from mundane to +3 (or whatever), that still counts as three sequential enchants for purposes of applying the discount to only the first. That is, you get the +1 at half price, but the rest is full price, even if you get it all at once.

The FAQ's language could stand to be updated/clarified, though.

Qadira *

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Somewhat related, the Core book talks about being able to combine rings but that the secondary effect costs 50% more. So, are you allowed to purchase a Ring of Protection +1 and Featherfall for 5,200 gp for Society play?

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I expect all rules questions to followed by Jiggy posting 3-5 dev comments solving the issue.

You with out a reference... Jiggy your letting me down. :P

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ThorGN wrote:
Somewhat related, the Core book talks about being able to combine rings but that the secondary effect costs 50% more. So, are you allowed to purchase a Ring of Protection +1 and Featherfall for 5,200 gp for Society play?

Up there at the top^^^^^

That was basically the starting question for the thread. To summarize: No. The arcane bond does not let you get around the crafting restrictions in PFS. If you can't buy it then you can't have it as an arcane bond. All it does is give you an arcane bond at a cheaper cost.

Andoran ***

13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the FAQ could stand some clarification.

Can an Arcane Bonded Item be upgraded? wrote:


A character with the arcane bond class feature may create a bond with any magical item they own, as long as it falls within the categories permitted by the arcane bond ability. If a caster selects a non-magical item as his arcane bond, and the player later wishes to upgrade it, he may do so for the cost value of the final item as listed in the item's statblock. A bonded item that is enchanted must still conform to all the campaign rules for access to and upgrading of magical items. See the magic item upgrading FAQ for how to upgrade the Arcane Bonded item once it is magical.

Final item, to me, means that if you are taking a non-magical bonded item, say a longsword (Elven Wizard, anyone?), from masterwork to +1 Keen Frost, you would only pay the 50% price, the cost value, rather than only getting 1k GP off for the initial +1.

The real question, for me, which the FAQ doesn't really clarify, is whether you can do interim upgrades for the 50% price, as well.

As mentioned, a single discounted item, which is still sunderable, for a Wizard isn't going to be a big deal. And using the replace an arcane bond item would let them do the same thing for only a fraction over the 50% cost anyway.

And how does it handle enchanting a wand as an arcane bond? Use the 50 charges, it is back to being a non-magical wand, which you can then re-enchant with a new spell with 50 charges at half price. And, as an additional question, can you, when doing the arcane bond enchantment, create it at more than minimum caster level?

In other words, as a 9th level Wizard, with a mundane arcane bonded wand, can I enchant it with a 9th level CL version of Magic Missile, for the 5 missiles per charge, or am I stuck still enchanting it at 1st level, for 1 missile per charge?

Andoran *** Venture-Captain, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

+FAQ on your post, Kinevon. Those are good questions.

**

I'd love some clarification on this as well. It seems a bit arbitrary that you'd get half-off your initial "final upgrade" which could be a +1 weapon or a +5 weapon, but then not be able to upgrade the +1 weapon at half cost and essentially pay more for it. However, that is how I'm reading the FAQ now.

Has this been clarified at all? Is this an area of the FAQ that could use some updating? I found a very old thread claiming you had to meet pre-reqs for the creation of the item as well (such as knowing the spells...), given the fame system, and limits on the value of what one purchases, that seems overly complicated. Plus, I could find nothing to actually back it up anywhere.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:

Although I don't have a reference, I believe the idea is that even if you go straight from mundane to +3 (or whatever), that still counts as three sequential enchants for purposes of applying the discount to only the first. That is, you get the +1 at half price, but the rest is full price, even if you get it all at once.

The FAQ's language could stand to be updated/clarified, though.

Here's basically how it goes. Whatever you buy the cost is treated as if the item was constructed that way from scratch. It is this value which you use to count as your cost for upgrades.

Arcane Bond does not allow you to bypass the limitations on an item purchase. You can only get items that are specifically listed in the books, not custom modifications. (combining two or more listed items in one is a custom modification) The only thing that arcane bond gets you is the reduced cost.

If you lose or destroy or simply wish to disconnect your original arcane bond item, then you have to pay for everything from scratch after you've paid the cost to create that new arcane bond. There is no discount from the item you once owned before as you're not upgrading your previous items and the arcane bond enchants on that previous item do nothing for anyone else. In short everything you invested in that original arcane bond item is a total loss.

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LazarX wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

Although I don't have a reference, I believe the idea is that even if you go straight from mundane to +3 (or whatever), that still counts as three sequential enchants for purposes of applying the discount to only the first. That is, you get the +1 at half price, but the rest is full price, even if you get it all at once.

The FAQ's language could stand to be updated/clarified, though.

Here's basically how it goes. Whatever you buy the cost is treated as if the item was constructed that way from scratch. It is this value which you use to count as your cost for upgrades.

Arcane Bond does not allow you to bypass the limitations on an item purchase. You can only get items that are specifically listed in the books, not custom modifications. (combining two or more listed items in one is a custom modification) The only thing that arcane bond gets you is the reduced cost.

If you lose or destroy or simply wish to disconnect your original arcane bond item, then you have to pay for everything from scratch after you've paid the cost to create that new arcane bond. There is no discount from the item you once owned before as you're not upgrading your previous items and the arcane bond enchants on that previous item do nothing for anyone else. In short everything you invested in that original arcane bond item is a total loss.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. For an example, I have a Mithral Short Sword that I have declared my Arcane Bond. I then wish to upgrade it to a +1. The cost of this is based on if this were constructed using craft magic arms/armor, or 1010 (Mithral SS) + 1000 (+1) = 2010. Since I've already paid 1010, my cost to upgrade is the 1000. Later, I can add the +2 for an additional 4000. These bonuses function only for me (the bonder), and if that item ever stops being my arcane bond, it loses these bonuses for me as well.

Finally, one last clarification. I assume you differentiate between "cost" and "value" here. In other words, is the prestige limit on "maximum item cost" based off of the reduced bonded value or the real-world, if I had bought the item, value?

Thanks again for the clarifications!

**

Heh, actually, the more I read your first sentence the less sure I am. The cost to construct a Mithral SS +1 from scratch is 2010GP. It is that cost I use as my cost to upgrade from a Mithral SS? So upgrading a bonded item costs 2010, whereas upgrading a regular Mithral SS would cost 2000. Sorry, perhaps it's just me not understanding your wording here...

EDIT: This really should be much much simpler. I'm generally good at rules lawyering stuff and I still find this extremely unclear. Granted, perhaps it's me, but shouldn't it be simpler than this? I honestly can't think of any fringe cases where simplifying this down to simply say "adding magical properties to a bonded item can be done at the added construction cost, assuming the player qualifies to purchase the item using the full/reduced cost". Assuming that's what it actually is. If it's something more complicated... why?

Shadow Lodge **

Of course, it's also important to be sure you're familiar with the crafting rules before you start crafting away. In particular, when you're making those weapons, remember that you need a caster level equal to three times the equivalent enhancement bonus.

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Sesharan wrote:
Of course, it's also important to be sure you're familiar with the crafting rules before you start crafting away. In particular, when you're making those weapons, remember that you need a caster level equal to three times the equivalent enhancement bonus.

Nowhere in the above explanation was it stated that you needed to meet crafting requirements for the item to upgrade it. If this is true, then do I also need to know the spells required to craft that particular item? Is a check required? I'm guessing no, but once again, this is still unclear.

To make this a bit simpler, here, as I understand them, are the possibilities:

The cost to upgrade an arcane bonded item is:
A) The regular upgrade cost
B) The cost to craft that item from scratch
C) The difference between the cost to craft that item from scratch and the cost of the nonmagical item.
D) The difference between the cost to craft that item from scratch and the cost to craft the upgraded item from scratch.

The restrictions on upgrading an arcane bonded item are (some combination):
A) Meet purchasing restrictions for prestige based on the fair-market purchasing price.
B) Meet purchasing restrictions for prestige based on the crafted value.
C) Meet crafting requirements for the item not including the feats.

Personally, I think for the first question, either A or D make sense, as you shouldn't be penalized for upgrading and bonded item. Though you could do the lower of A and C. Since we keep talking about the reduced cost, I was assuming D.

As for restrictions, either A or B also make sense, but to restrict it based on the crafting requirements seems unfair, as it'll mean that bonded items can only be upgraded on average later than regular items, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Most people in the society could have bought that +2 weapon well before level 6, or added Agile before level 7, or without knowing cat's grace. Also, the statement "you may upgrade an item" tends to imply that you're not actually crafting it, you're upgrading it at a reduced cost.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

kinevon wrote:

I think the FAQ could stand some clarification.

I have clarified the FAQ. Please let me know if it fixes the problems and answers the questions presented in this thread.

Thanks for all the feedback and input to help me get this problem fixed.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Michael Brock wrote:
Please let me know if it fixes the problems and answers the questions presented in this thread.

Looks good to me! Good call on including that last sentence about Fame.

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Perfectly clear. Thanks for the clarification. Sadness on not being able to get my sword super discounted for my Arcane Duelist, but at least now I know what to expect :). Thanks again.

Andoran ***

Michael Brock wrote:
kinevon wrote:

I think the FAQ could stand some clarification.

I have clarified the FAQ. Please let me know if it fixes the problems and answers the questions presented in this thread.

Thanks for all the feedback and input to help me get this problem fixed.

This is why you ROCK!!

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Raleigh aka greysector

Would it be possible to make the Arcane Bonded Item question in the FAQ red, to indicate that it has been changed/updated?

Qadira ****

Bond rings! Free movement (need 45 fame...) but for only 20 gp! or invisibility for only 10k.

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"For items which can be enchanted incrementally (such as weapons or a ring of protection), only the first step gets this discount."

Is this only when enchanting a non-magical item, or just the first step in which you used the class feature to get a discount?

My bonded item was a masterwork Heavy Steel Shield. At level 3, I paid 1,000 gp to get a +1 enhancement bonus to AC. Since I wasn't level 5, I didn't qualify for the craft magic arms and armor feat, so I couldn't have gotten a discount.

Now that I'm level 5, can I upgrade the enchantment to +2 by paying 1,500 gp? I have more than 18 fame.

Or would I have to buy a brand new masterwork heavy steel shield, bond with it, then upgrade that one in order to get my discount? (Which would cost more than just never getting a discount at all)

If the item must be non-magical in order to get a discount, does that include any type of magic at all? Currently if I bash with my shield, it's not considered a magic weapon and it doesn't overcome DR/magic. Could I enchant my existing shield into a +1 weapon by paying 1,000 gp?

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The FAQ says "the first step". It doesn't say "the first of a certain subset of steps". Enchanting a shield from +1 to +2 is not the first step, no matter the circumstances.

Shadow Lodge ***

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the only benefit to arcane bond for a weapon is that at 5th level, you can get 1000gp off the price of the magic weapon. And a few spells. If something happens to it, my casting is nerfed until I spend more gold to get a new one.

Tell me there's some good reason to still take this?

BTW, is shield even a valid bond? Text says "amulet, ring, staff, wand, or weapon."

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

yeah... why is this nerfed from the regular game rules on item creation? at 7th level i can bond a wand. put fireball in it, and get it for 2250gp off. at 5th level i can only upgrade my weapon to +1 for a thousand gold pieces off?

an amulet can be amulet of natural armor +1 for 1000gp discount, but if i get something that isn't upgradable in steps, I can get it for a huge discount.

this seems like an incongrous hit. ( also... my caster already bought his +1 holy weapon ... do i have to refund his fees and take that away from him ? )

i agree the FAQ is clear. I don't understand why only the first such upgrade is at a reduced price.

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Seraphimpunk wrote:
i agree the FAQ is clear. I don't understand why only the first such upgrade is at a reduced price.

I think that it is because there is no crating allowed for anyone else, allowing people with an arcane bond to get progressively more powerful items for half-price undermines that PFS rule of no crafting and gives anyone with the arcane bond too much of an advantage with respect to WBL.

When you ban something powerful like crafting by house rule you have to make sure that the exceptions you carve out are as small as possible.

Qadira ****

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

clarification on wands, when they run out of charges, and become non-magical versions of themselves, would you get the discount when re-enchanting it with a new spell?

Grand Lodge ***

Michael Brock wrote:
kinevon wrote:

I think the FAQ could stand some clarification.

I have clarified the FAQ. Please let me know if it fixes the problems and answers the questions presented in this thread.

Thanks for all the feedback and input to help me get this problem fixed.

Awesome!

However...

What if I wanted to upgrade my bonded greatsword into a Frost Brand? Is crafting it as a frost brand the "first step" in this case, or must I first upgrade it to a +1 greatsword (for my 1k gp discount) and then upgrade it to the frost brand? Same question for basically every named magical weapon.

I'm comparing this to a Ring of Shooting Stars, which clearly gets everything, and the full 25k discount, in a single step.

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thistledown wrote:

Tell me there's some good reason to still take this?

BTW, is shield even a valid bond? Text says "amulet, ring, staff, wand, or weapon."

I'm playing a Skirnir magus Archetype from Ultimate Combat, you get a shield as an arcane bond item.

I've found the ability to spontaneously cast any one spell from my spellbook to be very helpful for a prepared spellcaster.

I'm not sure waiting until level 5 to enchant it at all would have been worth the 500 or 1,000 gp discount.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

Saint Caleth wrote:


When you ban something powerful like crafting by house rule you have to make sure that the exceptions you carve out are as small as possible.

allowing it to only be a discount on the first step of crafting is severely undercutting the slight boon given to an arcane caster with a bonded object. And does not eliminate the option of saving thousands of gold on a purchase.

when someone can at 7th level bond a wand, and save double or tripple that gold expenditure you're getting as a "bonus" for having a weapon or amulet bond, it feels a little bit like a dig at the weapon bonders.

sample savings breakdowns:

an example cost breakdown for wands ( craft at 5th level ):
3rd level wand of fireballs: normally 11,250gp. savings: 5,125gp.
4th level wand of something? normally 21,000gp. savings 10,500gp.

an example breakdown for amulets (craft at 3rd level):
amulet of natural armor +1 : price 2,000gp. savings 1,000gp.
amulet of natural armor +2 : price 8,000gp. savings: 1,000gp.
(and a base crafting requirment of 3CL x enhancement bonus)
amulet of hidden strength: price 9,000gp. savings 4,500gp.
amulet of magecraft: 20,000gp. savings 10,000gp.

an example breakdown of weapons (craft at 5th level):
+1 greatsword: price +2,000gp. savings 1,000gp.
+1 frost greatsword: price +8,000gp. savings 1,000gp.

an example breakdown of rings (craft at 7th level):
ring of protection +3: cost 18,000gp. savings 1,000gp.
ring of freedom of movement: cost 40,000gp. savings: 20,000gp.

Lets not forget that they've had this bonded object as just a free masterwork item for several levels at little to no use until they hit the level they want to craft it into something, or have paid to have it enchanted to a +1 ring, +1 weapon, or +1 amulet already. Thanks to the new ruling, they get no benefit from the crafting whatsoever because its already been enchanted one step.

so i ask what about this seems fair and balanced? characters can still get a ring, wand or amulet of something cool and save 10-20,000gp. it just doesn't go into a +3 weapon, it becomes a ring of evasion or something else that is a big single enchantment. and the ruling shafts anyone who has a weapon or an item that gets enchanted in steps. So yeah, I'm listing a grievance w/ the ruling, its the forums, i'm allowed to gripe. i've got two characters that this effects retroactively with arcane bonded weapons.

Qadira ****

I agree with seraphs stance on this. you get more value out of something with a one time big enchantment. I'm not sure why its so bad to just say
"if you have the fame to pay the price of what you want to upgrade, once per session you may upgrade your arcane bond at a 50% discount.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

devils advocate, i can see them saying no it because they're just bypassing crafting rules. PSF doesn't have crafting so there's usually no great attention paid to the crafting rules. We're not being asked to make a Spellcraft Check to craft the bonded item. And by only getting half off the initial +1, its like presuming that yes, by 5th level everyone meets the requirements to make the +1 item without penalty on the crafting rules. a +1 flaming sword would have some other crafting requirements, maybe 6th level for a +2 weapon, or having to know fireball or flame strike or some such nonsense, we get to skip over the +1, and then have to have someone else craft the item the rest of the way.

- but people looking for the big 50% discount don't have to make spellcraft checks or pay attention to crafting requirements either.

- and if an item is enchanted to +1 by the character, and then enchanted by someone else to Holy Flaming, and the character switches the bond. Does the entire item revert to a masterwork weapon? Does the character have to pay back the savings? or does it stay a +1 Holy Flaming cane?

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