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Capstones... Why?


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Lantern Lodge

The real question should be time, "do I pick up a few spells first then stealth or should I do it the other way around?"

The problem comes when people think it's fun to spend years and master something before moving on, but truthfully in real life it's easier and more efficeint to master two things at once.

Learning languages for example, if multiple are learned simotaneously then the areas of the brain are overlapped and intertwined giving better synergy, but if learned seperatly they inhabit different sections with little or no overlap and synergy is harder, but not that mastering one language doesn't preclude mastering a second either way you do it. You just have to being to do the work.

And practical considerations such as lack of funds doesn't preclude anything, it just is an added obstacle that you can either whine and cry about being impossible, or you can flip it the finger and dive headlong into solving the problem.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
JakBlitz wrote:
If you commit a violent hate crime and charged you can't become a police officer later in life?

Please try to keep it related to the kinds of choices that will close doors in PFO.

For example, in PFO under the current design, if I go to college and declare a Math major, then later switch to an Engineering major, I'll never be able to get my PhD in Math.

Show me a real world example where that kind of choice has that kind of impact.

Respectfully,

You are setting up strawman arguements. No one said it's impossible to earn more then one degree or to take up golfing while being a doctor either. I'll take a moment to remind you of the specific statements made....

DLH - "Which the whole point of sandboxing is to ALWAYS have ALL the options open, not that anyone can just walk over pick it all up, but anyone can take the test whenever they feel like it and with no need to plan it from 2 years ahead of time"

Grumpy - "The things you do and the actions you take SHOULD permanently effect the options open to you. Perhaps with great effort and luck you may find your way back to reopen paths you had previously shut away...but that shouldn't generaly be a quick/easy or automatic thing and the act of doing so will close off yet other doors."

No one said that taking ANY action (no matter how trivial) will automaticaly close ALL other actions (no matter how trivial) and it's never possible for anyone to find any way back.

It was simply said that actions have permanent and lasting effects on characters and that when you make some choices you will close off others and that you MAY be able to find your way back to the other options but it takes "great effort and luck."

To use your Engineering and Math degree example. A person MAY be able to go back to school after graduating and pick up a different degree....but for all but the most fortunate in our society that's an effort that requires considerable effort and planning. You need to put together both the (considerable) finances and (considerable) time to do so...balance that with the commitments you have to family and work and whatever other responsibilties you have. So yes, for a great many that's an opportunity that NEVER comes again.

Goblin Squad Member

@Nihimon: I would have actually used a lot of the same language and examples as already used in discussing your question. I see what you're saying, but in RL, life is what happens when you're busy making plans! We are the product of the place of our birth, of our genes and of the circumstances during our development.

The 10,000 hrs rule of thumb for mastery, does mean that a character/person taking that path may become an expert in their domain of knowledge, but few become experts across several (polymaths), where perhaps natural talent finds a perfect fit (right time, place, person?). If you are saying it's possible to learn a language, learn a physical discipline and so on and more, that is oc possible as well as running your life. But ultimately in learning we have a finite amount of time for focused attention towards this goal each day. I've personally tried to learn a range of things, and none of them to a very high standard (even some Aikido for 1 year ;)).

But back to PfO, the way I see it, is how to make vertical and horizontal progression of skills equally compelling so that players strategies (gens vs specs) and frequencies of builds lead to an increase in diversity of potential characters in the game world and therefore unpredictable interactions (in combat for eg).

So I think the idea is correct, but not sure the implementation (capstones) necessarily is.

Goblin Squad Member

All I'm asking is for you to provide a real world example that matches the way it works in PFO.

I may have misunderstood the original quote from you, and maybe you weren't actually saying that the way it works in PFO is actually analogous to the way it works in real life. If so, let's just drop it.

But if you're going to argue that the way it works in PFO is reasonable because that's the way it works in real life, then I don't think I'm being unreasonable to ask you to provide an example that actually matches the way it works in PFO.

Lantern Lodge

GrumpyMel wrote:

..........

No one said that taking ANY action (no matter how trivial) will automaticaly close ALL other actions (no matter how trivial) and it's never possible for anyone to find any way back.

.....

Actually the devs did say this, which is the entire point of the argument.

According to the devs if I get a badge in fighter then a badge in wizard, then no amount of training in fighter will ever get me that capstones, period, no ifs, ands, or buts.

That is what I don't like, I wouldn't even mind needing to do extra work, be saying that I am completely locked out with no options is just against the grain for me.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:
GrumpyMel wrote:

..........

No one said that taking ANY action (no matter how trivial) will automaticaly close ALL other actions (no matter how trivial) and it's never possible for anyone to find any way back.

.....

Actually the devs did say this, which is the entire point of the argument.

According to the devs if I get a badge in fighter then a badge in wizard, then no amount of training in fighter will ever get me that capstones, period, no ifs, ands, or buts.

That is what I don't like, I wouldn't even mind needing to do extra work, be saying that I am completely locked out with no options is just against the grain for me.

No what they said is that earning a SPECIFIC action (taking a level outside Archtype)will close off one other SPECIFIC action (earning Cap).... I understand that you don't like it...but it's a far cry from the quote of my post above.

Lantern Lodge

But how is that "...possible for anyone to find any way back."?

The entire point is that it might take me more effort and have to cross more obstacles, but in reality (and any other sandbox game that I actually liked) it would still be possible (even if impractical, which itself is just an obstacle not an absolute barrier)

Goblin Squad Member

How about a compromise.

Make the capstones decent. I like the at will stuff (surprise).

You get the capstone as normal for single class leveling, but if you multiclass, you must max all archetypes involved to gain their respective capstones.

You're still somewhat penalized by requiring more time to level all of the archetypes, but their capstones are never closed off to you.


I feel that spending 2,5 years (!) in a game leveling a class should be worth a capstone, no matter what. Those who only level a single class will get it sooner than those who don't. That's their reward.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

All I'm asking is for you to provide a real world example that matches the way it works in PFO.

I may have misunderstood the original quote from you, and maybe you weren't actually saying that the way it works in PFO is actually analogous to the way it works in real life. If so, let's just drop it.

But if you're going to argue that the way it works in PFO is reasonable because that's the way it works in real life, then I don't think I'm being unreasonable to ask you to provide an example that actually matches the way it works in PFO.

Nihimon,

No I was making a more general response to DLH's assertion that the definition of "sandbox" required ALL options to ALWAYS be open to a player.....and if you look I gave what I believe is an in-game example that most would find difficult to dispute..... Desecrate Torag's Shrine today, he's unlikely to be willing to accept you as one of his Paladin's tomorrow......maybe if you were really lucky and took a significant amount of TIME/EFFORT and planning in atonement he might accept you back at some point in future.

I can think of any number of real life examples where performing some action generaly precludes your ability to persue specific careers....

- commit a crime you cant get certain types of jobs..

- spend much time abroad and you'll lose access to certain security clearances, etc.

...but nothing directly analagous to PFO's capstone system. However, neither can I think of many situations in RL where one has reliable access to the kind of career mobility in PFO (chose to pursue any one of 11 different occupations at any time you want and go back and forth as much as you like) nor where one can achieve mastery of as many different proffesions as PFO provides (really How many people can achieve MASTERY of 5 different Proffesions ...not skills...but Proffesions in a single lifetime? ).

That's not really the point, I'm NOT trying to justify the capstone mechanic based on real life...any more then I would RESSURECTION....I'm trying to make the more basic point that ALL choices being open at ALL times regardless of what an individual does is a rather UNREALISTIC expectation to have no matter the context. I think the capstone is a pretty good mechanic for purely mechanicaly/good gameplay reasons. I haven't heard many arguements that I considered effective to the contrary.....though as I mentioned earlier...I actualy do like the specific alternate mechanism DLH provided.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:

But how is that "...possible for anyone to find any way back."?

The entire point is that it might take me more effort and have to cross more obstacles, but in reality (and any other sandbox game that I actually liked) it would still be possible (even if impractical, which itself is just an obstacle not an absolute barrier)

It's not. They are saying that for gameplay reasons you are making a permanent choice about one aspect of your character. I expect your choice of race will likely be a permanent choice as well...as will gender and your attributes...maybe some other stuff, who knows yet.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
@GrumpyMel, so you can't come up with a scenario where there's something that you could be doing right now if not for a choice you made earlier in life. Noted.

@Nihimon the real life example is best encapsulated thusly...

During my schooling years I am good at football, baseball, art and physics. I decide as I progress that I prefer the physics and go to college. After years I have achieved a degree in physics and get fame and fortune as the worlds new Neil Degrasse-Tyson.

I WILL NEVER EVER be a pro footballer or a pro baseballer. These physical occupations require years of dedicated all-encompassing training which I did not do. No 20th level capstones in Football or Baseball for me. Sure I could still play them, and even be good at them, but I will never win the World Series or the Superbowl.

Likewise art (or music for that matter). Sure I could throw it all in and take it up, but I'm sorry, artists don't get noticed at 45. They get noticed at 25. If you are older, you are patted on the back and told "that's really good but have you seen what the kids now are doing!"

This is how the world works. We pick a field and specialise in it. 20th level capstones are not a representation of a degree or even a masters. Lots of people get those. That's getting all your skills. Becoming a world-renowned master in something, takes a complete and total focus and dedication to your craft to the exclusion of all else.

Goblin Squad Member

And here's some real life examples of people who "multi-classed"!

Brian May - As the lead guitarist of Queen he is considered to be one of the greatest Rock Guitarists of his time. Has since gone back to Oxford to study Astronomy and is now dean of Astronomy at Oxford. (Capstone in Guitaring, 20th level skills in Astronomy)

Tara Moss - One of the 90's supermodels. Is now an accomplished crimewriting author. (Capstone in modelling, level 17 crime author)

Brock Lesnar - WWE superstar and world champion. Left the WWE to do MMA and became World Champion. (Capstone in WWE. Capstone IN MMA)

These people are extraordinarily rare. (But that was a fun analogy to come up with)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nihimon: if you don't get your major in math with honors, you can't take it again to try to do better.

If you start most OJT courses and then decide to try something else before completing training, you typically can't get back in. Ever.

Chess grandmasters can't take a couple of years off and return to top tier play.

Once someone has starred in pornography, they are essentially excluded from politics.

I defy you to name one person who was ever simultaneously arguably the best player in the world at two significantly different sports.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:


Once someone has starred in pornography, they are essentially excluded from politics.

Uh hello, not in Italy.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Once someone has starred in pornography, they are essentially excluded from politics.

*In the USA

Goblin Squad Member

Mbando wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:


Once someone has starred in pornography, they are essentially excluded from politics.

Uh hello, not in Italy.

I wouldn't call what they do in Italy 'politics' ;)

Goblin Squad Member

For what it's worth, I feel strongly supportive about the design goal I think Capstone's are supposed to address.... Allow people who unflichingly follow a single class to max level to be top notch (or at least competitive) at the core function of what that class (according to the game) is SUPPOSED to be about...when compared to someone who cherry pick's thier way through multiple different classes to get the best synergies going toward that function.

I'm completely agnostic as to whether capstones (as proposed) are the best mechanism for achieving that.

In other words, if I'm standing toe to toe fighting a mundane orc in melee combat....I don't want to feel like I'm not stacking up well AS A FIGHTER by taking 20 levels of FIGHTER against the guy who took 17 along with 1 of Wizard, 2 of Rogue and 2 of Bard. I don't want to ever have to think that taking a level of Fighter was not the best choice for doing "Fighter stuff".

Now, if I'm fighting a ghost that has DR against non-magic weapons and maybe some sort of sonic based attack...great the guy who's put in some levels of Wizard and Bard gets to shine since that's not pure fighter stuff.

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:
I can think of any number of real life examples where performing some action generaly precludes your ability to persue specific careers....

So can I. I can also think of any number of real life examples where people used the word "yellow" in a sentence.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hey guys. Instead of arguing over the price of tea in China, post something constructive. I don't want this thread to be locked.

Goblin Squad Member

Southraven wrote:
I WILL NEVER EVER be a pro footballer or a pro baseballer.

Are you saying you could be a pro footballer or a pro baseballer if you chose to start pursuing that path right now if only you hadn't pursued physics when you were younger? Because that's what you'd have to be saying in order for this analogy to relate to the way things work in PFO.

This seems to be the part that everyone keeps ignoring. In PFO terms, right now, I can start pursuing any career and reach the very top level in it. So pointing out careers that I couldn't start right now regardless of what choices I'd made in the past is utterly irrelevant.

Show me one example where I could start pursuing a career right now, and reach the pinnacle in it, but if I'd started it out of high school and then did something else for a few years, then now I can't reach that pinnacle. But please, for the love of God, please remember to make the example something that I could start right now and reach the pinnacle of... but for that prior choice.

Goblin Squad Member

Capstone abilities & Multiclass Synergies
There has certainly been some robust discussion as to the pro and cons of whether it’s better to focus on a single class and get a capstone or whether it’s better to multiclass, which many believe to be the path of the min/maxer due to synergies from multiclassing.

Out of interest what are some of these synergies that make PnP multiclassing so great?

The reason I ask is because the mechanics of PFO is likely to be different, so there may or may not be any actual truth in the fear of multiclassing characters being better than there single class counterparts.

For instance a lot of fighter characters may take a few levels of rogue for sneak attacks and or evasion. However, that can be managed by restricting the rogue weapon quality to certain weapons (which they’re going to do anyway). Therefore is it really such a powerful synergy? Especially if it’s unlikely the Rogue quality will be added to two-handed or high damage weapons.

Even if it is possible to find a longsword with the rogue quality, it may be so rare that it may not be worth the effort of most fighters getting a few rogue levels, because there is little chance you’ll be able to back stab with your chosen fighter weapon.

So a better approach might be to look at what the common PnP multiclass synergies are that encourages people to multiclass. Once we’ve identified a few of these we can discuss ways these can be mitigated/managed in PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

Xein wrote:
Hey guys. Instead of arguing over the price of tea in China, post something constructive. I don't want this thread to be locked.

No one's doing anything in this thread to warrant the moderators locking it, or even warning anyone to stop.

I apologize if the conversation irritates you. To be honest, it's wearing on me, too.

Goblin Squad Member

JakBlitz wrote:

@Sparrow

I would hope its more than a hat. I am planning to make a Paladin but, really have no reason to multiclass until i have run out of other things. The fact that I don't want to multiclass and be one awesome class should give me something to compensate for my lack of diversity. Giving me a hat and pushing me out the door isn't going to be cool since after that I am probably going to focus on non-class skills.

I was using a hat reference because Mbando used a hat reference.

You want my ideas? Look higher up on page 4 for my general take.

The big point to take with you, though, is that no matter whether you diversify before you hit 20 in paladin or not, you will be able to diversify because after you hit the paladin capstone you can start working on other skills, even obtaining other capstones.

I do not think that anyone has seriously suggested that silly hats would make excellent capstone rewards.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Southraven wrote:
I WILL NEVER EVER be a pro footballer or a pro baseballer.

Are you saying you could be a pro footballer or a pro baseballer if you chose to start pursuing that path right now if only you hadn't pursued physics when you were younger? Because that's what you'd have to be saying in order for this analogy to relate to the way things work in PFO.

This seems to be the part that everyone keeps ignoring. In PFO terms, right now, I can start pursuing any career and reach the very top level in it. So pointing out careers that I couldn't start right now regardless of what choices I'd made in the past is utterly irrelevant.

Show me one example where I could start pursuing a career right now, and reach the pinnacle in it, but if I'd started it out of high school and then did something else for a few years, then now I can't reach that pinnacle. But please, for the love of God, please remember to make the example something that I could start right now and reach the pinnacle of... but for that prior choice.

You're missing the point here a little. You can stop something and take it up again. Of course. However you will never ever be as good at it as the guy who never stopped. He has the capstone. You do not. That's the point.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh and to quickly preempt the "oh so you can't give an example" response,
it cannot be done, because there is no real world analogy to this. It doesn't exist.

We can only base it on our nearest equivalent, the real world, where it would be impossible. I don't see a problem with that. If you do, we'll agree to disagree :)

Lantern Lodge

The fact that the real world lacks an analogy is the point, I believe.

Besides in every example provided it wasn't impossible, merely improbable, which is a HUGE difference. We will be playing the the best Galorion has ever seen, of course we should have a shot at the improbable.

Southraven even gave examples of people who had achieved, and I can almost garuntee you that if the footballer had continued playing football while going to college for physics, he would have found it immensely easier to achieve "capstone" in both fields, and would likely be remember more for that achievment then winning the world series and becoming the next Einstien.

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

How about simply limiting the capstone system to one per character? The one you master first is the one in which you excel.

Goblin Squad Member

Chuck Wright wrote:
How about simply limiting the capstone system to one per character? The one you master first is the one in which you excel.

Because if I put forth the effort to max out an archetype the way they want, I want that capstone too.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

A pro footballer is not a capstone footballer. A respected physicist is not a capstone physicist.

If there are any examples out there of someone who made MVP of the Super Bowl and also won a Nobel Prize, that would be a dual-capstone person.

If they became a professional footballer and also a scientist who published papers that were widely cited, that would be a dual-maxed person, without either capstone.

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

Xein wrote:
Chuck Wright wrote:
How about simply limiting the capstone system to one per character? The one you master first is the one in which you excel.
Because if I put forth the effort to max out an archetype the way they want, I want that capstone too.

Then just raise the other 10 classes to 19. That should take about 25 years. ;)

Lantern Lodge

Consider that everyone early in life often is a multiclassed character even those that get a capstone. The individuals that play football in college, even if they drop it and capstone somewhere else they still are multiclassed.

And in general such people were doing their capstone class while doing these other things, then they focused.

In anycase the capstone isn't a once in a lifetime thing in the game, many people will get capstones even if they leave it ridiculously locked away like this, besides it rewards only one (or two if it's OP) of the motivations for playing which isn't right. If a spend almost 3 years playing the game and reaching max on a class I shouldn't be told "oh well you just can't have it because you didn't play the game right."

If the game has a reward, that reward should be available to be received by any play style.
If I dedicate 2.5 years of the game to fighter then I should have the same options as anyone who has 2.5 years of fighter, the fact that I dedicated w.5 years to getting it should be more then enough. Besides dedication isn't persuing something to the exclusion of all else, it's persuing something till the end even when I end up taking getting diverted else where for a while. Coming back to complete something is more dedication then simply ignoring everything else.

And what about people like me who want to make our own role and style, not to multiclass but because it will be our own style.

What my dex fighter who uses magic for protection or to deal with ghosts isn't worthy of being rewarded even when I am completely dedicated to that path, a path of my creation?

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

But the stated objective is to encourage single-classing over multi-classing. I feel that there should be some reward other than a title or a hat as well as a substantive drawback to multi-classing in the first place. The blog entry on capstones does state that there will be an in-game warning if you choose to multi-class you will forfeit the capstones. It's also far more than you get to do in many other games.

-----------------------

As an alternative idea, Horizons (now known as Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted) has a multi-classing system that allows you to set a primary class (at the appropriate trainer). You can multi-class as much as you wish, but you may only advance in one class at a time. Any class that you have levels in that isn't your "primary" class is only effective at half it's current level.

For example, If you were a 10th-level Fighter and decided to multi-class as a Cleric, you would effectively be 1st-level Cleric and 5th-level Fighter. Your armor restrictions would be based on the best-available of the two (5th-level Fighter). The catch being that to gain experience you had to kill things based on your overall character level. (It also had a prestige-class system where you HAD to multi-class to attain certain class... you had to be a 10th-level Fighter and 10th-level Cleric to become a Paladin, for example.)

The long-and-short of what I'm proposing here is a similar system that would let you change your Primary class once you gain more than one capstone. Allowing you to set it to one or the other (maybe working into the game a badge system that increases your number of "capstone slots" or something similar).

I'm truly not certain why there is a design philosophy to encourage single-class progression over multi-class progression, though.

Lantern Lodge

With the base system they described (as near as I can tell with such little detail) there will be no multiclassing, there will only be learning abilities, and the roles are just a guideline of what abilities are within one of the stereotypes.

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

The blog entry involving capstones contra-indicated that so color me confused. :)

Lantern Lodge

May have missed something but I don't recall it being mentioned that we would select classes, only that if doing something would deny us a capstone then a window warning would show up, which really only requires a selected capstone. Besides if you select classes, I probably won't even bother to play.

I've been trying to steer this into a game I want to play, because I like a fair amount of what's being attempted, but more and more I think the interface to the world and the character systems are going to be too wow-like for me. Though I hold out hope that it's just too many posters making assumtions.

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

I know that you obtain badges as you "level" and that there are 20 badges per role. The original post on capstones says that to get that capstone you have to NOT get badges in other roles.

To me that sounds like just another way to say "single" or "multi" classing with regards to adventuring roles.

I don't think that skills are involved in this process, however.

Goblin Squad Member

Multiclassing will most likely make you more powerful not only more effective (though one could argue that a more effective character is more powerful overall).

For this you give up your capstone.

As noone knows how the merits of multi-merit badging are balanced by the absence of the capstone the discussion on wether this is "fair" is pretty much futile.


The reason I don't like closing off opportunities to players forever based on likely early decisions is this: Mistakes. No matter what happens, no matter what I want to do, it should be easier to start my existing character down a path to anything than to start a new character.

Meaningful decisions are good! Permanent decisions can backfire on people a lot. One of the great things about games compared to life is that mistakes don't have to haunt you heavily and forever.

If capstones are a big deal, then it should be possible for a character to earn them, even if it takes a long time. Say they go fighter1, then wizard1, then fighter20. There should be some way for them to get the fighter cap, and the wizard cap eventually too. Maybe it takes a long time and they have to retrain skills. Maybe they need to jump through a bunch of hoops. Regardless, it should be easier than starting your character over from scratch.

I like the idea of capstones, and that they require great dedication to a single class to get them. I just think there has to be a better way to show that devotion to a single path than "make 1 choice for years, get rewarded".

Goblin Squad Member

MicMan wrote:
Multiclassing will most likely make you more powerful not only more effective...

Really? That goes contrary to every dev statement ever made on the topic. I'm glad we have someone here who knows better than the devs.

Goblin Squad Member

Southraven wrote:
You're missing the point here a little. You can stop something and take it up again. Of course. However you will never ever be as good at it as the guy who never stopped. He has the capstone. You do not. That's the point.

I apologize for letting my frustration show, but you're missing my point.

In PFO, I can start a new profession right now and reach the very pinnacle in it. And I can be as good as anyone else ever got. But if I did a little bit of it when I was younger, then I won't be able to reach that pinnacle.

I have no problem with that as a game mechanic. I understand the design pressures that make it attractive. I am not trying to say it's a bad mechanic.

The only thing I'm doing is pointing out that it is not analogous to the way things work in the real world. And the only reason I'm bothering to point that out is because it sounded like some people were arguing that it was a perfectly reasonable game mechanic precisely because that's how it works in the real world.

Southraven wrote:
... there is no real world analogy to this.

Maybe you're not missing my point after all...

DarkLightHitomi wrote:
The fact that the real world lacks an analogy is the point, I believe.

Quite so.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
Really? That goes contrary to every dev statement ever made on the topic...

Yes, and we all know that everything the devs intend will always come true in exactly the way it was intended.

Either multiclassing will carry a distinct advantage and thus make your char more powerful or noone in their right mind will do it, so the possibility alone is a trap because it causes you to miss a likely important ability for nothing.


What kind of capstone powers are we talking, anyway?

I'm curious to see what an Arcane Caster (Wizard) would get.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Southraven wrote:
You're missing the point here a little. You can stop something and take it up again. Of course. However you will never ever be as good at it as the guy who never stopped. He has the capstone. You do not. That's the point.

I apologize for letting my frustration show, but you're missing my point.

In PFO, I can start a new profession right now and reach the very pinnacle in it. And I can be as good as anyone else ever got. But if I did a little bit of it when I was younger, then I won't be able to reach that pinnacle.

I have no problem with that as a game mechanic. I understand the design pressures that make it attractive. I am not trying to say it's a bad mechanic.

The only thing I'm doing is pointing out that it is not analogous to the way things work in the real world. And the only reason I'm bothering to point that out is because it sounded like some people were arguing that it was a perfectly reasonable game mechanic precisely because that's how it works in the real world.

Southraven wrote:
... there is no real world analogy to this.

Maybe you're not missing my point after all...

DarkLightHitomi wrote:
The fact that the real world lacks an analogy is the point, I believe.

Quite so.

So.. you're suggesting that if there is one spot on the team for a kicker, I spend 10 years exclusively kicking, you spend 6 years kicking, 2 years tackling, 1 year snorkling and 1 year rolling down hills sideways for fun, that it is unreasonable to assume that I can claim the spot on that team, and continue claim it, thus denying it from you for all time.

There are real world analogies, they are just, by definition non-specific, which is what you are demanding, which is a waste of both your and my time.

Anyway, I am completely over this thread and its over the top passive aggressive overtones and shall leave you to it.

Goblin Squad Member

Southraven wrote:
So.. you're suggesting that...

Not even close.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that, in the PFO universe, I can start a new career in Football or Baseball or Hockey right now and I can reach the highest level in those new careers. But if I resume my high school Basketball career, I will never reach the highest level there.

(( Let me know when the light bulb goes off. ))

Goblin Squad Member

What Nihimon is trying to say is:

A) I get 20 Merit Badges for Fighter and THEN get 1 Merit Badge of Wizard
===> I have my capstone ability

B) I get 5 Merit Badges for Fighter and THEN get 1 Merit Badge for Wizard and THEN get 15 Merit Badges for Fighter
===> I do NOT have my capstone ability

even though both chars may be exactly the same.

I, however, do not think that this is a problem at all because you get warned (what, without doubt, will not prevent many many people to presumably "gimp" themselves and cry about it afterwards with no end...).

Goblin Squad Member

MicMan wrote:
What Nihimon is trying to say is...

Not really. What I'm trying to point out is that I can start a new career and get the Capstone, but I can't resume an old career and get the Capstone. And that's not the way anything works in the real world.

MicMan wrote:
I, however, do not think that this is a problem...

Neither do I! I'm just pointing out that people who claim that this makes sense because it's the way it works in the real world are wrong.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Unless age effects are implemented. If you die of old age after 45 months of training, that would significantly alter the discussion.

Nothing has been said either way about age effects just yet. I'm not endorsing the idea, just pointing out that total training time might be finite.

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Unless age effects are implemented. If you die of old age after 45 months of training, that would significantly alter the discussion.

Nothing has been said either way about age effects just yet. I'm not endorsing the idea, just pointing out that total training time might be finite.

Quiet, you.

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