paizo.com Recent Posts in Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting thempaizo.com Recent Posts in Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting them2018-06-13T00:17:09Z2018-06-13T00:17:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themalexd1976https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1852014-12-18T13:41:12Z2014-12-18T13:36:49Z<p>I mean, not to respond to my own post, but if you really want to go all literal, look at "Improvised Weapon Master":</p>
<p>You can turn nearly any object into a deadly weapon, from a razor-sharp chair leg to a sack of flour.</p>
<p>This literally states that you can actually turn a chair leg to a sack of flour.</p>
<p>Read it.</p>
<p>Reeeeeead iiiiiiit...</p>
<p>We all know that isn't the intention, but that is a direct quote.
<br />
It also clearly states you can turn nearly any object into a deadly weapon.</p>
<p>Turn it into a weapon.</p>
<p>Weapon. If we assume the word "weapon" implies a status that the item must have to be enchanted, then it has gained this status. No mention of losing weapon "status" if it gets put down.</p>
<p>Anyway, if literal and clearly intentional quotes aren't enough, GM always gets final say.</p>
<p>Don't even know why I'm adding this, the whole thing seems to trivial compared to Legendary Items... Mythic Rules etc...</p>I mean, not to respond to my own post, but if you really want to go all literal, look at "Improvised Weapon Master":
You can turn nearly any object into a deadly weapon, from a razor-sharp chair leg to a sack of flour.
This literally states that you can actually turn a chair leg to a sack of flour.
Read it.
Reeeeeead iiiiiiit...
We all know that isn't the intention, but that is a direct quote.
It also clearly states you can turn nearly any object into a deadly weapon.
Turn it into a...alexd19762014-12-18T13:36:49ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themalexd1976https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1842014-12-18T21:28:05Z2014-12-18T13:18:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Apocryphile wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Nicos wrote:</div><blockquote> So, any reomtely chance there is an oficial claricfication by a dev? a unoficial one would be apreciated too. </blockquote>Doubt it... </blockquote><p>Player: "Can I have a +2 rolling pin for my rogue, to give him free sneak attacks against unarmed opponents?"
<p>Me: "Sure, I read that thread too, if you want to invest two feats to be able to have a weapon that is equal to a longsword, but also has that, I don't care. 300 extra gold for masterwork weapon"</p>
<p>Player: "But that thread shows so much evidence that you can't do it!"</p>
<p>Me: "That thread also shows that taking Martial Weapon Proficiency doesn't grant you actual proficiency, use your head, goofball. Enjoy your rolling pin, other rogues are probably going to make fun of you."</p>
<p>My rule 0-if the players are having fun, and it doesn't upset the game... Go for it. Free sneak attacks against unarmed opponents for the cost of two feats (or just one if you want a suboptimal weapon), who gives a centaur poop? </p>
<p>I will settle this. Improvised WEAPON. No argument has shown that the word weapon was a mistake. They could have called the feat "Improvisational fighter" and talked about using "nearby objects" and "battlefield debris or any unusual object".</p>
<p>They did not.</p>
<p>The use of the word WEAPON means that these objects are what they have been described to be. People defend dumber rules than this with more proof.</p>
<p>Obviously, a person can't be enchanted, because they can't be CRAFTED. You can argue that if you were to make a personally researched spell, you could craft a masterwork person... but the CRAFT skill doesn't allow for it.</p>
<p>The rules clearly state that anything can be a weapon:</p>
<p>The monk of the empty hand eschews normal weapons in favor of whatever is lying around—rocks, chair legs, flagons of ale, even a simple quill pen ALL BECOME DEADLY WEAPONS in the hands of such a monk. A monk of the empty hand draws on his own ki to infuse his improvised weapons with power, and can transform a broken bottle into a magical weapon.</p>
<p>There. A quote from the rules. </p>
<p>Paizo has stated that specific trumps general, so I refer to this, and only this, as it specifically states that "whatever is lying around... all become deadly weapons".</p>
<p>Some would argue that it is only in the hands of the monk. I respond with "where does it say that the magical WEAPON status is somehow LOST?"</p>
<p>This is totally silly. This whole thing. Every GM is going to have their own ruling, but I think if someone wants a frying pan that is better against unarmed opponents at the cost of two feats... what the heck is the problem?</p>
<p>Beer stein is even cooler. Kudos for that one, hope it worked out.</p>
<p>Peace.</p>Apocryphile wrote:Nicos wrote: So, any reomtely chance there is an oficial claricfication by a dev? a unoficial one would be apreciated too.
Doubt it... Player: "Can I have a +2 rolling pin for my rogue, to give him free sneak attacks against unarmed opponents?" Me: "Sure, I read that thread too, if you want to invest two feats to be able to have a weapon that is equal to a longsword, but also has that, I don't care. 300 extra gold for masterwork weapon"
Player: "But that thread shows so...alexd19762014-12-18T13:18:43ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themApocryphilehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1832014-10-19T02:45:26Z2014-10-19T02:45:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nicos wrote:</div><blockquote> So, any reomtely chance there is an oficial claricfication by a dev? a unoficial one would be apreciated too. </blockquote><p>Doubt it...Nicos wrote:So, any reomtely chance there is an oficial claricfication by a dev? a unoficial one would be apreciated too.
Doubt it...Apocryphile2014-10-19T02:45:26ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themNicoshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1822014-01-10T18:21:57Z2014-01-10T18:21:57Z<p>So, any reomtely chance there is an oficial claricfication by a dev? a unoficial one would be apreciated too.</p>So, any reomtely chance there is an oficial claricfication by a dev? a unoficial one would be apreciated too.Nicos2014-01-10T18:21:57ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themMalachi Silverclaw (alias of Matt Bray)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1812013-10-03T20:50:05Z2013-10-03T20:50:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">BuzzardB wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Bizbag wrote:</div><blockquote> I guess it does say "An arrow that hits its target is destroyed", but that'd be quite a stretch to read that RAW as "even in melee", especially since it says "one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost".. it'd be rather hard to "lose" an arrow you have in your hand, so it suggests this only applies to when fired from a bow. </blockquote>yeah I would not have the get lost part, but I would say they get destroyed and discharge their enchantment on a hit. Or else it would be pretty lame that you could re use it the same as another magic weapon for 1/50th the cost. </blockquote><p>That's exactly how I'd rule it. : )
<p>We are expected to use our thinky bits and understand <i>why</i> 50% get lost or destroyed on a miss and <i>why</i> they get destroyed on a hit.</p>
<p>On a miss a shot arrow will disappear into the undergrowth or hit a wall or other hard obstruction. This would not be the case if you missed while using it like a dagger; on a miss it won't sail into the distance or hit a wall.</p>
<p>On a hit, though, whether shot or held, the same thing happens: it hits the target and is damaged in the process.</p>BuzzardB wrote:Bizbag wrote: I guess it does say "An arrow that hits its target is destroyed", but that'd be quite a stretch to read that RAW as "even in melee", especially since it says "one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost".. it'd be rather hard to "lose" an arrow you have in your hand, so it suggests this only applies to when fired from a bow.
yeah I would not have the get lost part, but I would say they get destroyed and discharge their enchantment on a hit. Or...Malachi Silverclaw (alias of Matt Bray)2013-10-03T20:50:05ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themBizbaghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1802013-10-03T20:43:31Z2013-10-03T20:43:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">BuzzardB wrote:</div><blockquote>yeah I would not have the get lost part, but I would say they get destroyed and discharge their enchantment on a hit. Or else it would be pretty lame that you could re use it the same as another magic weapon for 1/50th the cost. </blockquote><p>Indeed it would be lame. Another way of resolving it is to extend the rule about enchanting ammunition to buying it. You have to enchant ammunition in batches of 50 (or it you don't per RAW, rule that they do), and if they're cheeky about it and try to just buy them, have the shopkeepers refuse to sell except in batches. If it's •really• important to them why that is, use it as an adventure hook.BuzzardB wrote:yeah I would not have the get lost part, but I would say they get destroyed and discharge their enchantment on a hit. Or else it would be pretty lame that you could re use it the same as another magic weapon for 1/50th the cost.
Indeed it would be lame. Another way of resolving it is to extend the rule about enchanting ammunition to buying it. You have to enchant ammunition in batches of 50 (or it you don't per RAW, rule that they do), and if they're cheeky about it and try to...Bizbag2013-10-03T20:43:31ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themBuzzardBhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1792013-10-03T20:28:14Z2013-10-03T20:28:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Bizbag wrote:</div><blockquote> I guess it does say "An arrow that hits its target is destroyed", but that'd be quite a stretch to read that RAW as "even in melee", especially since it says "one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost".. it'd be rather hard to "lose" an arrow you have in your hand, so it suggests this only applies to when fired from a bow. </blockquote><p>yeah I would not have the get lost part, but I would say they get destroyed and discharge their enchantment on a hit. Or else it would be pretty lame that you could re use it the same as another magic weapon for 1/50th the cost.Bizbag wrote:I guess it does say "An arrow that hits its target is destroyed", but that'd be quite a stretch to read that RAW as "even in melee", especially since it says "one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost".. it'd be rather hard to "lose" an arrow you have in your hand, so it suggests this only applies to when fired from a bow.
yeah I would not have the get lost part, but I would say they get destroyed and discharge their enchantment on a hit. Or else it would be...BuzzardB2013-10-03T20:28:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themSlimGaugehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1782014-10-19T04:57:26Z2013-10-03T20:23:02Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SlimGauge wrote:</div><blockquote> is there a way to make a weapon look like a non-weapon object ? Like a hat of disguise, but for weapons ? If there is, you could have your +2 mace of bashing, but it looks like a bowling pin (or whatever). </blockquote><p>Found it. At least for weapons there is the "Glamered" weapon property from Ultimate Equipment. Sadly the weapon shows its true form in combat, but otherwise you can have your +2 flaming saucepan.SlimGauge wrote:is there a way to make a weapon look like a non-weapon object ? Like a hat of disguise, but for weapons ? If there is, you could have your +2 mace of bashing, but it looks like a bowling pin (or whatever).
Found it. At least for weapons there is the "Glamered" weapon property from Ultimate Equipment. Sadly the weapon shows its true form in combat, but otherwise you can have your +2 flaming saucepan.SlimGauge2013-10-03T20:23:02ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themErrantPursuithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1772013-10-02T00:30:26Z2013-10-02T00:30:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Blindmage wrote:</div><blockquote>So an empty handed monk weilding a beer stein as a weapon treats it as a Light Hammer (since it's most likely a light weapon) and if he/she has Weapon Focus (Light Hammer) would get an extra +1. There's no need for Weapon Focus (beer stein).</blockquote><p>Incorrect. Weapon Focus(Light Hammer) works on Light Hammers. A beer stein is not a light hammer, Weapon Focus will not apply. Even if you treat the beer stein as a light hammer for the purpose of combat statistics. <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-focus-combat—-final" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Weapon Focus</a> and Specialization are very specific in the wording. You get the bonuses when using the appropriate weapon. Beer Stein =/= Light Hammer. Beer Stein hits <i>like</i> a light hammer in the hands of a particular kind of monk.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Seraphimpunk wrote:</div><blockquote>is there a great difference between a masterwork club and an exquisitely crafted table leg that's had masterwork transformation cast on it? the spell brings out fine balance and strong form magically. it could now function as a masterwork improvised weapon. It may be hard to hold, or odd looking and confusing to most people, that explains the improvised penalty. but thats offset by its craftsmanship in the mwk bonus for a net -3.</blockquote><p>The table leg is part of the table, You masterwork the table and then break the leg off...the leg is not crafted for hitting things. Instead it is designed for supporting heavy things. You can use a table leg <b>as</b> a <i>serviceable</i> club, but it is not a "designed for combat club". You get a penalty because the weight is off, the shape is wrong, the grip is wrong, the hitting end has peculiarities, the wood is of the wrong type and not seasoned properly for this kind of work, etc... Not because people look at you funny.
<p>Further, a club is a pretty weak argument to make because it is the simplest of simple weapons, even a haunch of lamb can be used <b>as</b> a club. If I masterwork my haunch of lamb can I get +1 to hit? What do you mean I cannot masterwork my improvised weapon haunch of lamb? See? Improvised weapons is an enormous category of items that are not actually weapons being put to that use. If you want to enchant one that's fine, it becomes a wondrous item and uses those rules. Not the weapon rules. Under the definition of improvised weapon they are described as not weapons and you must <i>approximate</i> the effect using a real weapon. Why is this ambiguous?</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">blahpers wrote:</div><blockquote>I already have, but you've made up your mind on that matter, so there's little point in continuing. I simply pointed out that one of the most commonly repeated arguments in this thread has a distinct flaw and that it might be more useful to pursue other arguments.</blockquote><p>I looked. You haven't.
</p>
<ul>Here's the breakdown:
<br />
<li><a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=2?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#71" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">#1</a> Making a joke about frying pans
<br />
<li><a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=2?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#78" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">#2</a> A comment on doing non-lethal damage and indicating that you think if you spend 300gp on an item you should get +1 to hit with a stein as masterwork. This is the closest I have seen to you making a case as to why non-weapons should be considered weapons and receive a weapon bonus after being masterworked.
<br />
<li><a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=2?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#85" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">#3</a> Gary Gygax joke disparaging someone else's argument.
<br />
<li><a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#164" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">#4</a> To say you feel normal weapon is ambiguous term. Incidentally this argument amounts to saying "I think I can define beer stein as a normal weapon"
<br />
<li><a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#173" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">#5</a> To tell me you had made an argument that you have yet to make.</ul></p>Blindmage wrote:So an empty handed monk weilding a beer stein as a weapon treats it as a Light Hammer (since it's most likely a light weapon) and if he/she has Weapon Focus (Light Hammer) would get an extra +1. There's no need for Weapon Focus (beer stein).
Incorrect. Weapon Focus(Light Hammer) works on Light Hammers. A beer stein is not a light hammer, Weapon Focus will not apply. Even if you treat the beer stein as a light hammer for the purpose of combat statistics. Weapon Focus and...ErrantPursuit2013-10-02T00:30:26ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themBizbaghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1762013-10-02T00:09:53Z2013-10-02T00:09:53Z<p>I guess it does say "An arrow that hits its target is destroyed", but that'd be quite a stretch to read that RAW as "even in melee", especially since it says "one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost".. it'd be rather hard to "lose" an arrow you have in your hand, so it suggests this only applies to when fired from a bow.</p>I guess it does say "An arrow that hits its target is destroyed", but that'd be quite a stretch to read that RAW as "even in melee", especially since it says "one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost".. it'd be rather hard to "lose" an arrow you have in your hand, so it suggests this only applies to when fired from a bow.Bizbag2013-10-02T00:09:53ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themBuzzardBhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1752014-10-19T04:56:58Z2013-10-01T22:55:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Bizbag wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Since you can enchant ammunition, could you use arrows with your improvised weapon feats? You bypass the "can't enchant non-weapons" bit, and I haven't seen anything that says item qualities go away if you use the item differently - for example, they don't stop being Cold Iron if you use them in melee.</p>
<p>We know the magic isn't tied to the bow, because the bow doesn't have to be magic to benefit from the arrow's enhancement bonus.</p>
<p>They'd be the exception rather than the rule, of course. </blockquote><p>As I mentioned earlier in the thread, as far as I can tell, yes.
<p>Arrows can be made from various materials.
<br />
Arrows can be masterwork
<br />
Arrows can be enchanted
<br />
Arrows are improvised weapons when used in melee and act as a dagger of the same size.</p>
<p>I would assume the arrow still loses its enchantment when you hit someone with it though, so grab the quickdraw feat so you can pull another out of your quiver as a free action</p>Bizbag wrote:Since you can enchant ammunition, could you use arrows with your improvised weapon feats? You bypass the "can't enchant non-weapons" bit, and I haven't seen anything that says item qualities go away if you use the item differently - for example, they don't stop being Cold Iron if you use them in melee.
We know the magic isn't tied to the bow, because the bow doesn't have to be magic to benefit from the arrow's enhancement bonus.
They'd be the exception rather than the rule, of...BuzzardB2013-10-01T22:55:22ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themBlindmagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1742014-10-19T04:56:33Z2013-10-01T21:32:57Z<p>It seems like people are over complicating at least part of the issue.</p>
<p>Say you're an Empty Handed Moonk. Due to your rules, you yreat weapons as if they were either a Club, Light Hammer or Quarterstaff, meaning any Weapon Focus/etc, feats you have focusing on those weapons would apply.</p>
<p>So an empty handed monk weilding a beer stein as a weapon treats it as a Light Hammer (since it's most likely a light weapon) and if he/she has Weapon Focus (Light Hammer) would get an extra +1. There's no need for Weapon Focus (beer stein).</p>
<p>Even for non monks, you'd be looking at what the improved weapon is counting as for purposes of feats and such.</p>It seems like people are over complicating at least part of the issue.
Say you're an Empty Handed Moonk. Due to your rules, you yreat weapons as if they were either a Club, Light Hammer or Quarterstaff, meaning any Weapon Focus/etc, feats you have focusing on those weapons would apply.
So an empty handed monk weilding a beer stein as a weapon treats it as a Light Hammer (since it's most likely a light weapon) and if he/she has Weapon Focus (Light Hammer) would get an extra +1. There's no...Blindmage2013-10-01T21:32:57ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themblahpershttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1732014-10-19T04:56:26Z2013-10-01T20:30:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">ErrantPursuit wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">blahpers wrote:</div><blockquote>Since I view an improvised weapon as a weapon</blockquote>The language many times differentiates between normal weapons and improvised weapons. As has been quoted and linked several times the definitions are distinct and different as well. Further, when masterworked the results are different. While you may choose to believe anything you see fit, there is no actual systemic support for this argument that has been presented. If you would care to present some then I may reconsider my position on the absurdity of the leading statement. </blockquote><p>I already have, but you've made up your mind on that matter, so there's little point in continuing. I simply pointed out that one of the most commonly repeated arguments in this thread has a distinct flaw and that it might be more useful to pursue other arguments.ErrantPursuit wrote:blahpers wrote:Since I view an improvised weapon as a weapon
The language many times differentiates between normal weapons and improvised weapons. As has been quoted and linked several times the definitions are distinct and different as well. Further, when masterworked the results are different. While you may choose to believe anything you see fit, there is no actual systemic support for this argument that has been presented. If you would care to present some then I may...blahpers2013-10-01T20:30:01ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themMalachi Silverclaw (alias of Matt Bray)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1722013-10-01T16:15:48Z2013-10-01T16:15:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Seraphimpunk wrote:</div><blockquote><p> and then how do you determine proficiency Beer Stein? </p>
<p>most people treat it like an improvised weapon =P </blockquote><p>Fair question, but the answer is easy.
<p>As a weapon it needs an entry on the weapons table. It will be exotic (obviously). You set it's damage based on comparison with already existing weapons. It won't do as much damage or have as good a crit range/multiplier as existing weapons, because if it did then armies would already be using them on the battlefield. Assign it to a weapon group.</p>
<p>When designing a new weapon for the game you should do the work!</p>
<p>If its similar enough to an existing weapon then that's easier. For example, a crowbar crafted as a masterwork weapon (even if it is also a masterwork tool-pay for both qualities) would be a club. The work is already done for you, because the club already exists. It also has the advantage of not being exotic.</p>
<p>Easy!</p>Seraphimpunk wrote:and then how do you determine proficiency Beer Stein?
most people treat it like an improvised weapon =P
Fair question, but the answer is easy. As a weapon it needs an entry on the weapons table. It will be exotic (obviously). You set it's damage based on comparison with already existing weapons. It won't do as much damage or have as good a crit range/multiplier as existing weapons, because if it did then armies would already be using them on the battlefield. Assign it to...Malachi Silverclaw (alias of Matt Bray)2013-10-01T16:15:48ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themSeraphimpunkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1712013-10-01T15:57:47Z2013-10-01T15:57:47Z<p>and then how do you determine proficiency Beer Stein? </p>
<p>most people treat it like an improvised weapon =P</p>and then how do you determine proficiency Beer Stein?
most people treat it like an improvised weapon =PSeraphimpunk2013-10-01T15:57:47ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themMalachi Silverclaw (alias of Matt Bray)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1702013-10-01T15:51:56Z2013-10-01T15:51:56Z<p>There is nothing wrong in crafting a beer stein,, crowbar, lump hammer, fan, table leg, etc. as a masterwork weapon.</p>
<p>But as soon as you have deliberately crafted it as a <i>masterwork</i> weapon then you have crafted it as a <i>weapon</i>. It is then, by definition, not an <i>improvised</i> weapon.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><b>Improvised Weapons:</b> Sometimes objects <b>not crafted to be weapons</b> nonetheless see use in combat.</blockquote><p>The improvised weapon feats only apply to objects <b>not</b> crafted to be weapons. Masterwork weapons <i>are</i> crafted to be weapons. Therefore, feats that apply to improvised weapons don't apply to masterwork weapons.
<p>This chain of logic, supported by rules quotes, convinces me. What rules quotes and/or logic is there to convince me (or anyone) otherwise? Because 'improvised weapon' has the word 'weapon' in it? So does 'not a weapon'. Would you define 'not a weapon' as a weapon because it has the word 'weapon' in it? This is absurd!</p>
<p>Improvised weapon = not a weapon</p>
<p>Masterwork weapon = weapon</p>
<p>Masterwork weapon =/= improvised weapon</p>There is nothing wrong in crafting a beer stein,, crowbar, lump hammer, fan, table leg, etc. as a masterwork weapon.
But as soon as you have deliberately crafted it as a masterwork weapon then you have crafted it as a weapon. It is then, by definition, not an improvised weapon.
Quote:Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.
The improvised weapon feats only apply to objects not crafted to be weapons. Masterwork weapons are crafted to be...Malachi Silverclaw (alias of Matt Bray)2013-10-01T15:51:56ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themMalwinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1692013-10-01T14:50:13Z2013-10-01T14:50:13Z<p>Looks like I'm just going to house rule this one.</p>Looks like I'm just going to house rule this one.Malwing2013-10-01T14:50:13ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themSeraphimpunkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1682014-10-19T04:55:59Z2013-10-01T13:50:10Z<p>masterwork transformation will transform a table leg into a masterwork club?? thats new to me.</p>masterwork transformation will transform a table leg into a masterwork club?? thats new to me.Seraphimpunk2013-10-01T13:50:10ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themJames Risnerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1672013-10-01T13:38:05Z2013-10-01T13:38:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Seraphimpunk wrote:</div><blockquote> a masterwork club and an exquisitely crafted table leg that's had masterwork transformation cast on it? </blockquote><p>No, they are identical. Namely, neither are Improvised Weapons.Seraphimpunk wrote:a masterwork club and an exquisitely crafted table leg that's had masterwork transformation cast on it?
No, they are identical. Namely, neither are Improvised Weapons.James Risner2013-10-01T13:38:05ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themSeraphimpunkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1662013-10-01T09:43:23Z2013-10-01T09:43:23Z<p>what makes something masterwork? beyond the craftsmanship, its finely balanced, well made, put together well and strong. </p>
<p>what does masterwork transformation spell do? it brings out all of those elements magically in an otherwise mundane object. </p>
<p>is there a great difference between a masterwork club and an exquisitely crafted table leg that's had masterwork transformation cast on it? the spell brings out fine balance and strong form magically. it could now function as a masterwork improvised weapon. It may be hard to hold, or odd looking and confusing to most people, that explains the improvised penalty. but thats offset by its craftsmanship in the mwk bonus for a net -3. </p>
<p>I wanted a masterwork chain to use as a weapon in one game. the gm agreed that a length of chain made from mithral would count as masterwork but be an improvised weapon as there's no "Chain" weapon entry in pathfinder like there may have been in 3.5e. just a spiked chain.
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I used my mithril chain as an improvised weapon, and took catch off guard eventually to mitigate the improvised penalty. </p>
<p>whats so incredulous about an adamantine crowbar that's well put together and finely balanced, doing more than helping you open doors well ( pfs' trusty buddy provided a +4 bonus instead of a typical mwk tool's +2 ). Why shouldn't it also count as a masterwork weapon when used as a club, but treated as improvised?</p>what makes something masterwork? beyond the craftsmanship, its finely balanced, well made, put together well and strong.
what does masterwork transformation spell do? it brings out all of those elements magically in an otherwise mundane object.
is there a great difference between a masterwork club and an exquisitely crafted table leg that's had masterwork transformation cast on it? the spell brings out fine balance and strong form magically. it could now function as a masterwork improvised...Seraphimpunk2013-10-01T09:43:23ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themErrantPursuithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1652013-10-01T09:23:49Z2013-10-01T09:23:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">blahpers wrote:</div><blockquote>Since I view an improvised weapon as a weapon</blockquote><p>The language many times differentiates between normal weapons and improvised weapons. As has been quoted and linked several times the definitions are distinct and different as well. Further, when masterworked the results are different. While you may choose to believe anything you see fit, there is no actual systemic support for this argument that has been presented. If you would care to present some then I may reconsider my position on the absurdity of the leading statement.blahpers wrote:Since I view an improvised weapon as a weapon
The language many times differentiates between normal weapons and improvised weapons. As has been quoted and linked several times the definitions are distinct and different as well. Further, when masterworked the results are different. While you may choose to believe anything you see fit, there is no actual systemic support for this argument that has been presented. If you would care to present some then I may reconsider my...ErrantPursuit2013-10-01T09:23:49ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themblahpershttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1642017-09-10T02:36:04Z2013-10-01T08:13:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Malachi Silverclaw wrote:</div><blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon.</blockquote></blockquote><p>Regardless of your stance, this is not a terribly convincing argument, as "normal" is just too easy to equivocate around. When I read that statement, for instance, it simply means that a masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a weapon that would otherwise not be any different from a typical instance of that weapon. Since I view an improvised weapon as a weapon, there is no proscription in that sentence.
<p>Not sure why I'm still posting in this thread, though; it's gone way past nowhere and plunged headlong into nowhen. RAW does not have a definitive, unambiguous answer for this other than The Most Important Rule.</p>Malachi Silverclaw wrote:Quote:A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon.
Regardless of your stance, this is not a terribly convincing argument, as "normal" is just too easy to equivocate around. When I read that statement, for instance, it simply means that a masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a weapon that would otherwise not be any different from a typical instance of that weapon. Since I view an improvised weapon as a weapon, there is no...blahpers2013-10-01T08:13:34ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themBizbaghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1632014-10-19T04:54:42Z2013-10-01T04:00:02Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">ErrantPursuit wrote:</div><blockquote><p> General = #2: A shield <i>is</i> a weapon. It has weapon feats, fighter grouping (close), proficiency requirements, and weapon table entries.
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Specific = #3: When you make a shield masterwork quality you are restricted by the shield's rules (which are specific compared to the masterwork weapon ruling as they apply to only one weapon: shields).
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</blockquote><p>I guess it boils down to whether or not a "masterwork weapon" has to be of the "+1 to attack rolls" variety to qualify for magic enchantment. The rules for shields <i>suggest</i> they do not, but it's vague, especially since Spikes goes out of its way to say they can be masterwork.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">ErrantPursuit wrote:</div><blockquote>Actually, I would say yes.</blockquote><p>Hooray!
<p>@Karossi: You could ask your GM (if they're a stickler), if you can use enchanted Arrows for your improvised weapon, and just ask if you can CALL it a beer stein for fluff (and don't use it as a container or fire it from a bow).</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>That is an invented requirement based on 3.5 text, and is not applicable to the pathfinder discussion.</blockquote><p>That's quite an accusation. Especially since I cited every single rule with a source, and all of them were the Pathfinder Corebook or the Pathfinder SRD.ErrantPursuit wrote:General = #2: A shield is a weapon. It has weapon feats, fighter grouping (close), proficiency requirements, and weapon table entries.
Specific = #3: When you make a shield masterwork quality you are restricted by the shield's rules (which are specific compared to the masterwork weapon ruling as they apply to only one weapon: shields).
I guess it boils down to whether or not a "masterwork weapon" has to be of the "+1 to attack rolls" variety to qualify for magic...Bizbag2013-10-01T04:00:02ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themErrantPursuithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1622013-10-01T03:53:01Z2013-10-01T03:53:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Bizbag wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Errant Pursuit wrote:</div><blockquote>Ammunition is not a weapon in and of itself. That is why, if you try to use it as a weapon, it is improvised.</blockquote><p>Since you can enchant ammunition, could you use arrows with your improvised weapon feats? You bypass the "can't enchant non-weapons" bit, and I haven't seen anything that says item qualities go away if you use the item differently - for example, they don't stop being Cold Iron if you use them in melee.
<p>We know the magic isn't tied to the bow, because the bow doesn't have to be magic to benefit from the arrow's enhancement bonus.</p>
<p>They'd be the exception rather than the rule, of course. </blockquote><p>Actually, I would say yes.Bizbag wrote:Errant Pursuit wrote:Ammunition is not a weapon in and of itself. That is why, if you try to use it as a weapon, it is improvised.
Since you can enchant ammunition, could you use arrows with your improvised weapon feats? You bypass the "can't enchant non-weapons" bit, and I haven't seen anything that says item qualities go away if you use the item differently - for example, they don't stop being Cold Iron if you use them in melee. We know the magic isn't tied to the bow, because...ErrantPursuit2013-10-01T03:53:01ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Masterwork improvised weapons and enchanting themErrantPursuithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p45v&page=4?Masterwork-improvised-weapons-and-enchanting#1612013-10-01T03:51:58Z2013-10-01T03:51:58Z<p><b><span class=messageboard-bigger>Re: The shield debate...</span></b>
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<div class="messageboard-quotee">Bizbag wrote:</div><blockquote><p>2) Masterwork weapons add +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls
</p>
PRG 149: "A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls."</p>
<p>3) You cannot make an ordinary shield a Masterwork Weapon.
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PRG 149: "Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls." </blockquote><p>This does not contradict, but instead looks to be a case of general vs specific.
</p>
General = #2: A shield <i>is</i> a weapon. It has weapon feats, fighter grouping (close), proficiency requirements, and weapon table entries.
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Specific = #3: When you make a shield masterwork quality you are restricted by the shield's rules (which are specific compared to the masterwork weapon ruling as they apply to only one weapon: shields).</p>Re: The shield debate...
Bizbag wrote:2) Masterwork weapons add +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls
PRG 149: "A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls."3) You cannot make an ordinary shield a Masterwork Weapon.
PRG 149: "Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls."
This does...ErrantPursuit2013-10-01T03:51:58Z