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Star Wars 7


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Depends where and when you want to set it. If you set it after all the EU stuff and don't really use any of it, then you can get away with it.

Of course, then you've got movies almost completely unrelated to the others. If you've already got the new Jedi Order rebuilt and the Empire completely gone and none of the characters still around (except the obligatory C3PO & R2-D2), it could just as well be set before the prequels as after.

I suspect a casual fan would be disappointed if they had less connection to the original trilogy than the prequels did. And once you bring in Luke/Han/Leia, even as the elder statesman/mentor figures, you start running into family problems.


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But you don't need to even show the families. "Oh, Jaina is off doing X in system Y, she can't leave there, else bad thing Z happens!".

Also, I really think it unlikely that they will be bringing back Han, Luke and Leia. Maybe Ford, he has aged best of the three and it seems that he is willing. Although I would love to see Hamill again on the big screen, even with him having gotten quite old. He deserves some more recognition, with all the good work he has done throughout his career.

Anyway, even with a totally new cast they could just go "This is Cade Skywalker, it is 140 years after the Return of the Jedi, here is his story". And that would keep the connection to the second trilogy.


Dal Selpher wrote:

Whereever and whenever the next movie picks up, I'm sure the opening crawl will give us enough of a foundation to start from.

"Shortly after establishing the New Republic, remnants of the Galactic Empire have rallied behind the militarily brilliant Grand Admiral Thrawn. Blah blah blah... three paragraphs is plenty to tell us what we need to know... blah blah blah..."

<dramatic space shot of the underside of a spaceship>

<cue explosions/dialogue/whatever>

If you were going to retell the Thrawn trilogy, sure. That would work.

Though I doubt they'd follow it closely enough for both the books and the movies to be canon. And you'd need to recast the heroes.

But if you were setting it later and featuring the various kids who've all had adventures already and then you have to explain Mara Jade and it all gets more complicated.

You really have to either ignore the EU stuff or retell it. Ignoring it doesn't necessarily mean it isn't canon, but it does mean you have to avoid it. Which probably means setting the movies outside the time already covered.


magnuskn wrote:

But you don't need to even show the families. "Oh, Jaina is off doing X in system Y, she can't leave there, else bad thing Z happens!".

Also, I really think it unlikely that they will be bringing back Han, Luke and Leia. Maybe Ford, he has aged best of the three and it seems that he is willing. Although I would love to see Hamill again on the big screen, even with him having gotten quite old. He deserves some more recognition, with all the good work he has done throughout his career.

Anyway, even with a totally new cast they could just go "This is Cade Skywalker, it is 140 years after the Return of the Jedi, here is his story". And that would keep the connection to the second trilogy.

Again, Cade's got all sorts of story already. Is that all backstory for the movie? Or are we retelling it?


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Backstory, of course. And a rather muted one. Seriously, the sequence where he is drugged out on deathsticks and having a vision of Mara Jade, Darth Vader and whatnot could either be cut or edited down to recognizable characters and it would not change much of the story.

Everything which really would need to be fleshed out would be, as I said, Luke rebuilt the Order, the New Republic was founded and, after a century, a new Empire was built out of the remnant of the old Empire. Then the actual story of SW: Legacy happens, which really revolves around the current conflicts of Cades generation and a bit around what happened to his father ( who already is like the great-grandkid of Luke or something like that ).

The EU doesn't need to be rebooted to make new movies. Not nearly. You just need to ignore most of the nitty-gritty which is not directly relevant to the movie plot.


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The big question of where episode 7 picks up depends on the answer to the question of what they are doing with the main characters and their actors from the original trilogy.

If they recast them, they can pick up immediately after Return of the Jedi, or as much as a decade later.

If they use the original cast, they would have to move into the New Jedi Order era and include the highlights of the years in-between in extremely compressed form in the opening crawl of the movie.

If they drop the original characters, then they could go into the far future or the far past relative to the original 6 movies -- but that would be the least satisfactory course for most fans, I would think.

The other question would be how much they want to deviate from the novels. If they don't deviate from the novels, then the plots of the movies would be too predictable to people who read them, while if they do deviate from them, then a great deal of "canonical" material would suddenly become "non-canonical". I don't know what they could possibly do that would make readers of the Star Wars novels happy.


magnuskn wrote:

Backstory, of course. And a rather muted one. Seriously, the sequence where he is drugged out on deathsticks and having a vision of Mara Jade, Darth Vader and whatnot could either be cut or edited down to recognizable characters and it would not change much of the story.

Everything which really would need to be fleshed out would be, as I said, Luke rebuilt the Order, the New Republic was founded and, after a century, a new Empire was built out of the remnant of the old Empire. Then the actual story of SW: Legacy happens, which really revolves around the current conflicts of Cades generation and a bit around what happened to his father ( who already is like the great-grandkid of Luke or something like that ).

I'm not real familiar with Cade, I'd long given up on following SW by then. Apparently he's got 56 issues of SW:Legacy. Are we retelling that story or telling new stories after that already happened?

In the first case, you're blowing that canon out of the water. In the second, that's the history I was talking about.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Do they need to make the EU fans happy? EU fans make up only a small fraction of those of just the movies, and most of the EU fans will not give up on the franchise if they do a reboot.
Those that do will easily be replaced by the new generation of 10-18 year olds too intimidated by the current book selection but interested in Star Wars as a new line of books gets launched in the new timeline, with a solid rebranding to easily identify it.

Losing annoying customers that give you bad press to pick up a group of newly rabid fans in the highest spending bracket will only spell good things for their bottom line. They know this, and so they don't care about the small portion of fans who will complain - most of those will complain no matter what they do. Their intrest is going to be in making a movie that will get young adults excited and wanting to be more involved in the franchise. Then they can sell new games and toys. With that, they will also please a vast majority of their older fans who have never bothered to pick up any of the EU material.


Is there actually an example of a movie based on another media that actually treated it all as canon? Other than movies based on TV shows, that worked as part of the TV continuity.

They'll do what movies always do. Tell their own story and throw in some references as fanservice.


Remember, EU IS NOT STAR WARS CANON! Disney can, and will, completely ignore the books when they create Star Wars 7, 8, and 9. Lucas sold it to them, so they can do whatever they want now. They could even go back and reboot it all. They are probably using the Star Wars EU books as toilet paper right now...


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Farael the Fallen wrote:
Remember, EU IS NOT STAR WARS CANON! Disney can, and will, completely ignore the books when they create Star Wars 7, 8, and 9. Lucas sold it to them, so they can do whatever they want now. They could even go back and reboot it all. They are probably using the Star Wars EU books as toilet paper right now...

I suspect they will keep some of it. Rogue Squadron, for instance, is mostly stuff they can work arround and not mess with. If they want to grab Wedge and showcase his badassness in the new movie, it wont really detract from the books. I doubt they will do something dumb like kill him off.

I'm guessing they will re-write everything having to do with Luke founding the New Jedi Order and with the next generation of kids, and then they will run with their new, much simpler, story.


I like some EU, particularly some of the Old Republic stuff, comic books and games mostly.

My point is that the movie studio that makes 7 isn't going to really care that much. A writer/director who is a fan of EU might, but it's still not going to be considered canon.


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Quote:
Do they need to make the EU fans happy? EU fans make up only a small fraction of those of just the movies, and most of the EU fans will not give up on the franchise if they do a reboot.

True story: the EU (computer games + books but not counting the CLONE WARS TV series, which is also part of the EU) has made more money than the films did at the box office.

Not the movies+DVD sales+rentals, but still two-thirds that amount.

So...yeah. Annoying the people who've paid a lot of your bills for the last twenty years and kept your franchise going in the years between films is not the best move. Obviously they're going to do it, and I understand the reasons, but they can't just be blase about it.

Quote:
Is there actually an example of a movie based on another media that actually treated it all as canon? Other than movies based on TV shows, that worked as part of the TV continuity.

Depends. BABYLON 5 counted the TV episodes, novels and comic books as equal continuity. The TV show even referenced the events of comic book-only storylines at a couple of points. THE MATRIX ONLINE is apparently the canon continuation of the story of the MATRIX movies, though in that case (as with the BUFFY and ANGEL comics) there is an argument that they are canon only because the creators saw there being no chance of further TV shows or movies, and calling the spin-offs canon makes them more attractive to fans.

In the case of STAR WARS, note that numerous characters and concepts (most notably Coruscant itself) started off in the EU years before appearing in the films.

Quote:
Remember, EU IS NOT STAR WARS CANON!

It is. Or rather, it used to be. Lucasfilm spent fourteen years (between HEIR TO THE EMPIRE coming out in 1991 and EPISODE III in 2005) telling everyone that the EU was fully canon and that it all counted. After 2005 Lucas started saying that he considered the films and EU to be compatible continuities, but a 'film only' continuity also existed. The position up until now has been that everything remains canon and that explanations can be found for the few inconsistencies that have come up.

Obviously, Disney now own Lucasfilm and, whilst Lucasfilm remains an extant entity by itself (just owned by The Mouse rather than The Lucas), they are now receiving money from Disney and Disney will be bank-rolling the new films. Fans know that Disney will likely not care too much about the EU. They do expect that Lucasfilm will try to fit in the new movies into EU canon and, if not possible, definitively rule that the EU and the new movies will be separate continuities. I suspect that is what will happen, with the EU continuing to exist as a separate line.

Disney could also cherry-pick ideas from the EU for the new films as well, so having Thrawn and Mara Jade show up (albeit under different contexts) in the new films would be possible. Similar to the way the BATMAN movies can pick up villains from the comics and include them with no regard for their role in the comics, just keeping the character and motivations vaguely similar.


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The EU is a part of Star Wars canon. There are four levels of Star Wars canon, G, T, C, and S. G is the "highest" level of canon and each level of canon overrides those below it. There is also N-canon, which is non-canon. Everything else is part of Star Wars continuity.


Caineach wrote:
Do they need to make the EU fans happy? EU fans make up only a small fraction of those of just the movies, and most of the EU fans will not give up on the franchise if they do a reboot. ... Losing annoying customers that give you bad press to pick up a group of newly rabid fans in the highest spending bracket will only spell good things for their bottom line. They know this, and so they don't care about the small portion of fans who will complain - most of those will complain no matter what they do.

Totally agree. Ignoring the EU isn't going to change a thing in terms of income - the EU fans are still going to go see the new Star Wars stuff anyways. "Alienating" them simply means they'll be a little bit louder on internet messageboards... Hardly anything to pay attention to.

It's in Disney's best interest (and in most of the fans' best interest too, TBH, considering the varying quality of the EU) to take the best EU stuff in whatever context they deem fit and jettison the rest (and in any case definitely don't ardently stick to it in any way). In the end, I think EU fans are going to have to accept that the above is the most likely scenario.


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Caineach wrote:

Do they need to make the EU fans happy? EU fans make up only a small fraction of those of just the movies, and most of the EU fans will not give up on the franchise if they do a reboot.

Those that do will easily be replaced by the new generation of 10-18 year olds too intimidated by the current book selection but interested in Star Wars as a new line of books gets launched in the new timeline, with a solid rebranding to easily identify it.

Losing annoying customers that give you bad press to pick up a group of newly rabid fans in the highest spending bracket will only spell good things for their bottom line. They know this, and so they don't care about the small portion of fans who will complain - most of those will complain no matter what they do. Their intrest is going to be in making a movie that will get young adults excited and wanting to be more involved in the franchise. Then they can sell new games and toys. With that, they will also please a vast majority of their older fans who have never bothered to pick up any of the EU material.

Yes, that worked out great for Wizards of the Coast.


Lucas never considered the novels canon, so why should Disney?

I have no doubt the wunderkinds there are dying to get their hands on the whole scene and change it drastically, Lucas' whims be damned.

See here: Bruunwald educates the ignorant.


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<shrug> If you guys think that alienating your actual fanbase is the best way to go, I hope you are not working for any company which has to sell a story product. Because that traditionally has worked out quite badly for said companies. Wizards of the Coast and BioWare could sing you a nice song of how well that worked out for them.

Doesn't mean that the guys at Disney won't do it. A new fool is born every minute.


Quote:
Totally agree. Ignoring the EU isn't going to change a thing in terms of income - the EU fans are still going to go see the new Star Wars stuff anyways. "Alienating" them simply means they'll be a little bit louder on internet messageboards... Hardly anything to pay attention to.

Oh, everyone will go see the films. That's not in question. However, people will definitely think long and hard about picking up any more STAR WARS novels or playing any more story-focused STAR WARS games if they think they're simply going to rendered invalid by some future corporate whim.

As mentioned earlier, the EU has made Lucasfilm $6 billion dollars in total (compared to $10 billion total for the movies, including box office, video, DVD, Blu-Ray and rental sales). That is not a trivial amount of money and helped keep the company afloat during the years when new films were not around. Some of those sales came from the fact that STAR WARS is - very famously - the only major, famous franchise where everything is counted as canon. That coming to an end and STAR WARS's devolution into any other franchise where nothing matters and everything contradicts everything else cannot help but hurt Lucasfilm's bottom line (or potential bottom line).

Quote:
It's in Disney's best interest (and in most of the fans' best interest too, TBH, considering the varying quality of the EU) to take the best EU stuff in whatever context they deem fit and jettison the rest (and in any case definitely don't ardently stick to it in any way). In the end, I think EU fans are going to have to accept that the above is the most likely scenario.

Oh, I agree. Whilst I think it's a bit lame to spend two decades saying something is canon and then abruptly changing their minds when the think they can make more money, it's also very Hollywood and understandable (from a cynical POV). From a creative angle, any new blood coming to the franchise as a writer or director will obviously want to be able to write any story they want without the shackles of continuity looming over them. Realistically, this is how things will fall out.

However, it is not necessary for people to lie (by saying the EU was never canon, when it was for a long time) or attempt to marginalise the situation (by saying the EU was obscure and unimportant, when it's made rather more than a third of all the money that STAR WARS fiction has ever made) when addressing it.

Bruunwald wrote:
Lucas never considered the novels canon, so why should Disney?

Except that Lucas did consider the novels canon. Which is why he used materials from them in the prequel movies, like the name of Coruscant, which was created by Timothy Zahn. He was also instrumental in the planning of several of the books, including the NEW JEDI ORDER sequence (he chose which characters could and could not be killed off, and ordered that the invaders be changed from returning Sith to an all-new threat) and provided a detailed outline for the DARTH BANE novel, some of which he used in the writing of EPISODE III.

He just didn't consider them 'as canon' as the movies (hence the sliding scale mentioned above).

Quote:
Wizards of the Coast and BioWare could sing you a nice song of how well that worked out for them.

Agreed on Wizards, whose RP division may simply never recover from the debacle of 4E, but the fan-controversy over BioWare has arguably not affected them too much financially. MASS EFFECT 3 was still their fastest-selling game ever and I believe is now their biggest-selling game. DA2 was more disappointing, but still hardly a massive financial failure.


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Werthead wrote:
Agreed on Wizards, whose RP division may simply never recover from the debacle of 4E, but the fan-controversy over BioWare has arguably not affected them too much financially. MASS EFFECT 3 was still their fastest-selling game ever and I believe is now their biggest-selling game. DA2 was more disappointing, but still hardly a massive financial failure.

BioWares reputation is in the dumpster after the fiascos with DA2, ME3 and SWTOR. Their founders had to leave the company ( and if you believe that they did so just because they wanted to do something else with their lifes, I'll sell you a bridge in San Francisco ) and they broke trust with their fans. That will have consequences in the future. Yeah, people still bought those games and a lot of that had to do with the faith BioWare had built over the years with those fans. Future games will tell the story.

And hey, maybe I am wrong there, but that is what I am seeing. If you have a loyal fanbase, it is generally a horrible idea to tick them off and cross your fingers that new fans will appear to replace the old. Smart companies try to keep both groups happy.


Guys... EVERYONE will see a new Star Wars movie. At least one. So, they are quite simply NOT going to use the expanded universe stuff, because the fans have already read it, and the rest have no idea about it. Either way - they lose. So, it will be new, and Harrison Ford will make an appearance, and that will be that. New Star Wars, like it or not.


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Sissyl wrote:
Guys... EVERYONE will see a new Star Wars movie. At least one. So, they are quite simply NOT going to use the expanded universe stuff, because the fans have already read it, and the rest have no idea about it. Either way - they lose. So, it will be new, and Harrison Ford will make an appearance, and that will be that. New Star Wars, like it or not.

Guys, they will NOT make a Harry Potter movie. Everybody already has read the books, who wants to see a movie about something they already have read? Likewise there is NO CHANCE that they would make a Lord of the Rings movie. Or any other movie based on written material. Sheesh.


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magnuskn wrote:

<shrug> If you guys think that alienating your actual fanbase is the best way to go, I hope you are not working for any company which has to sell a story product. Because that traditionally has worked out quite badly for said companies. Wizards of the Coast and BioWare could sing you a nice song of how well that worked out for them.

Doesn't mean that the guys at Disney won't do it. A new fool is born every minute.

Marvel. DC. Star Trek.

In these cannons, the majority of fans knew most of the cannon and still continued in the new continuity and they picked up new fans. The vast majority of fans for Star Wars are not familiar with the EU, so the number lost will be less, but with a major blockbuster they will be able to continue appealing to new audiences with new products.

The old book series are not going to become top sellers again. They are going to invest in the next line of books that will be top sellers. If they have to blow away the existing cannon to do it, I bet they will still make money on it.

Werthead

Old fans may think hard about picking up old books. But gronards aren't the target audience. In fact, there is lots of evidence that shedding them can help buisnesses appeal to greater audiences. They tend to be highly critical even with their praise, which turns off people.

New fans will flock to the series in droves. They will be able to launch new book lines and other products in the new continuity.


I'm more curious what philosophy of the Force the new movies will take. Living Force? Unifying Force? A different angle?


magnuskn wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Guys... EVERYONE will see a new Star Wars movie. At least one. So, they are quite simply NOT going to use the expanded universe stuff, because the fans have already read it, and the rest have no idea about it. Either way - they lose. So, it will be new, and Harrison Ford will make an appearance, and that will be that. New Star Wars, like it or not.
Guys, they will NOT make a Harry Potter movie. Everybody already has read the books, who wants to see a movie about something they already have read? Likewise there is NO CHANCE that they would make a Lord of the Rings movie. Or any other movie based on written material. Sheesh.

Making a movie based directly off a book series is one thing. It happens all the time. You're taking a story developed in one medium and bringing it to another. Your starting fanbase is the fans of the books. Even then, the movies never follow strict book canon. HP was actually one of the closest adaptions and there was still much nerd rage.

Making a sequel to a popular movie and directly adapting books from the franchise would be unprecedented, AFAIK.

Sovereign Court

It could be fun. It could be horrible. But hey, I like the idea of the story going forward. I can ignore Episode 1 and the series isn't completely ruined. Just weakened.


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Caineach wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

<shrug> If you guys think that alienating your actual fanbase is the best way to go, I hope you are not working for any company which has to sell a story product. Because that traditionally has worked out quite badly for said companies. Wizards of the Coast and BioWare could sing you a nice song of how well that worked out for them.

Doesn't mean that the guys at Disney won't do it. A new fool is born every minute.

Marvel. DC. Star Trek.

In these cannons, the majority of fans knew most of the cannon and still continued in the new continuity and they picked up new fans. The vast majority of fans for Star Wars are not familiar with the EU, so the number lost will be less, but with a major blockbuster they will be able to continue appealing to new audiences with new products.

The old book series are not going to become top sellers again. They are going to invest in the next line of books that will be top sellers. If they have to blow away the existing cannon to do it, I bet they will still make money on it.

Werthead

Old fans may think hard about picking up old books. But gronards aren't the target audience. In fact, there is lots of evidence that shedding them can help buisnesses appeal to greater audiences. They tend to be highly critical even with their praise, which turns off people.

New fans will flock to the series in droves. They will be able to launch new book lines and other products in the new continuity.

Marvels continuity was never reset. DC is infamous for doing it, but aside from the New 52 recent thing, they were trailing Marvel for years.

Star Trek... I am not close enough to this fandom to make an educated statement.

In any case, destroying the old continuity is not something done lightly and when it has been done in the past, it very often backfired. The guys at Disney will probably try to preserve old continuity when integrating their new projects into the Star Wars universe. Or maybe not, but why take the risk?


Bruunwald wrote:

Lucas never considered the novels canon, so why should Disney?

I have no doubt the wunderkinds there are dying to get their hands on the whole scene and change it drastically, Lucas' whims be damned.

See here: Bruunwald educates the ignorant.

You are wrong.

Star Wars Canon


magnuskn wrote:


Marvels continuity was never reset. DC is infamous for doing it, but aside from the New 52 recent thing, they were trailing Marvel for years.
Star Trek... I am not close enough to this fandom to make an educated statement.

In any case, destroying the old continuity is not something done lightly and when it has been done in the past, it very often backfired. The guys at Disney will probably try to preserve old continuity when integrating their new projects into the Star Wars universe. Or maybe not, but why take the risk?

But the Marvel movies aren't in regular Marvel universe continuity. They also aren't in Marvels Ultimates continuity, though the Avengers movies are more closely based off of it. Nor are the different movies in the same continuity (X-Men,Avengers,Spiderman, anything else.)

Anymore than DC's various movies are in any of the DC Comics rebooted continuities. Or even consistent with each other.

As for Star Trek, that's an even closer parallel, if you go back to when Next Generation started, or even the earlier movies. The franchise had been kept alive by books and comics and even a cartoon, but none of those were considered canon for the movies or the new series.


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magnuskn wrote:


Marvels continuity was never reset. DC is infamous for doing it, but aside from the New 52 recent thing, they were trailing Marvel for years.
Star Trek... I am not close enough to this fandom to make an educated statement.

In any case, destroying the old continuity is not something done lightly and when it has been done in the past, it very often backfired. The guys at Disney will probably try to preserve old continuity when integrating their new projects into the Star Wars universe. Or maybe not, but why take the risk?

Marvel continuity - the TV show and movies do not follow the same plots as the comic, and some characters are vastly different. Nothing in the new Avengers is as it was in the comics, but people love them. Sure, there are people bemoaning not having Antman as a founder, but lots of people have no idea who he even is and merchandice is selling like never before for the primary tickets. THey aren't integrating Spiderman and X-men into the Avengers continuity like they do in the comics. There are lots of differences with different cannons within Marvel, and since their primary demographic ages out of the series they can get away with revamps every couple years without losing huge sections of their fanbase, as long as they grab the next generation.

The latest Star Trek movie was a complete rewrite that invalidates the entire orriginal series. They get away with it a little with time travel, but they took a huge hit from it. In the end though, the franchise got a spike in popularity.


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Sure, but there is no good reason to piss of a large group of long-time fans, just to tickle the bone of some other fans who seem to have a hate-on for the EU. For whatever reason ( well, I have some reasons of my own to dislike the direction it has gone lately, but I suspect those would be drastically different from the people who seem to hate the very idea of the post-ROTJ EU ) it is that they feel this way.

The glee with which some people here contemplate the idea of the EU becoming non-canon attests to that.


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magnuskn wrote:

Sure, but there is no good reason to piss of a large group of long-time fans, just to tickle the bone of some other fans who seem to have a hate-on for the EU. For whatever reason ( well, I have some reasons of my own to dislike the direction it has gone lately, but I suspect those would be drastically different from the people who seem to hate the very idea of the post-ROTJ EU ) it is that they feel this way.

The glee with which some people here contemplate the idea of the EU becoming non-canon attests to that.

They wouldn't be doing it for the people who don't like the EU. They would be doing it because it gives them significantly more freedom in the story they want to tell and where it goes, and because trying to use the EU would make it very hard to not result in massive ammounts of exposition on what happened. They would rather cater to their larger audience of people who would be lost by following the EU than their smaller audience of devoted fans.

Also, lots of people do hate portions of the EU, especially the YV. Making them no longer cannon would please a lot of fans.


magnuskn wrote:

Sure, but there is no good reason to piss of a large group of long-time fans, just to tickle the bone of some other fans who seem to have a hate-on for the EU. For whatever reason ( well, I have some reasons of my own to dislike the direction it has gone lately, but I suspect those would be drastically different from the people who seem to hate the very idea of the post-ROTJ EU ) it is that they feel this way.

The glee with which some people here contemplate the idea of the EU becoming non-canon attests to that.

I don't think most people here are full of glee at the idea. They just it's most likely and won't be that big a deal. I couldn't care one way or another really. I just don't see how they'd do it if they keep everything in the EU canon.

What do you think they should do?
As I see it these are the options if you're keeping canon:
Set a new story within the established timeline.
Convert one of the EU storylines into movies.
Set the movies long enough after the EU stories that the EU can be largely ignored.

There are problems with all three approaches.


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Third option. You can keep tenuous links to the old stuff by including Skywalkers and Solos and other known names as protagonists, without needing to have the old cast in the movies ( which only would be there for nostalgias sake, anyway ). That way you don't need to kill off the prior stories.

Where that would leave SW: Legacy is the only thing I dread about that possibility. It changed some elements of the setting in a pretty radical way and they would probably not want to go there, unless they adopt that setting wholesale. And it doesn't look that way so far. Since Legacy is the best thing to happen to Star Wars since, well, IMO the original trilogy, it would be a huge shame if it became infinities material.

And Caineach, I would not be that sure that the pro-EU people are so outnumbered by the movie purists as you think they are. First off, there probably is significant overlap between the two groups. And Wertheards numbers show that a very significant amount of money was spent on tie-ins, which account for about six billion dollars. That is a definitely non-trivial sum and would give me pause, if I were an exec at Disney.


magnuskn wrote:

Third option. You can keep tenuous links to the old stuff by including Skywalkers and Solos and other known names as protagonists, without needing to have the old cast in the movies ( which only would be there for nostalgias sake, anyway ). That way you don't need to kill off the prior stories.

Where that would leave SW: Legacy is the only thing I dread about that possibility. It changed some elements of the setting in a pretty radical way and they would probably not want to go there, unless they adopt that setting wholesale. And it doesn't look that way so far. Since Legacy is the best thing to happen to Star Wars since, well, IMO the original trilogy, it would be a huge shame if it became infinities material.

I'm not familiar enough with the later EU to comment on the changes. If nothing else they may not be the kind of thing that can pass without explanation.

And the less familiar the setting is and the farther away from the original trilogy, the harder it will be for the casual audience.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, that the SW universe is somewhat... static ( to say the least ) is one of the things it's famous for. I would think that new creative team wouldn't want to expose the audience to too much culture shock.

<sigh> Probably means that SW: Legacy is toast, if they don't choose it as the actual setting. With its three main factions ( and the Jedi being a fourth faction ), it'd probably be considered to be too complex by Hollywood types.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
magnuskn wrote:


And Caineach, I would not be that sure that the pro-EU people are so outnumbered by the movie purists as you think they are. First off, there probably is significant overlap between the two groups. And Wertheards numbers show that a very significant amount of money was spent on tie-ins, which account for about six billion dollars. That is a definitely non-trivial sum and would give me pause, if I were an exec at Disney.

I can only go from annectodal evidence, but I know a good 50+ people who I would consider Star Wars fans, and maybe 5 of them have read more than a 3 EU books. I think a number of them would miss Thrawn, but I have no idea how you would work him into a movie for the general audience and not have both the EU fans complain and people understand who he is.


Caineach wrote:
magnuskn wrote:


And Caineach, I would not be that sure that the pro-EU people are so outnumbered by the movie purists as you think they are. First off, there probably is significant overlap between the two groups. And Wertheards numbers show that a very significant amount of money was spent on tie-ins, which account for about six billion dollars. That is a definitely non-trivial sum and would give me pause, if I were an exec at Disney.
I can only go from annectodal evidence, but I know a good 50+ people who I would consider Star Wars fans, and maybe 5 of them have read more than a 3 EU books. I think a number of them would miss Thrawn, but I have no idea how you would work him into a movie for the general audience and not have both the EU fans complain and people understand who he is.

Yeah. I don't think it's so much "movie purists" as "the general audience". People who've seen and liked the movies, but know little or nothing of the EU. They're the ones who will make or break the movies. Along with a new generation. They vastly outnumber the EU fans.

They've spent a lot of money over the years, but you still can't jeopardize the actual movie box office (+rentals +dvds) for that, precisely because it's spread out.
Actually the real lesson from Wertheards numbers is design around the toys. That's where the real money is.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And yet there is no need to obliterate the EU to please those fans. It is entirely possible to just keep the EU complex details on the lowdown and tell a story in whatever canon timeline one chooses.

And that people will complain a bit if their favorite storyline is not adapted 100% faithfully to the big screen ( or television, see Game of Thrones ) is always to be expected. It still would work out much better than just destroying the EU canon.


The Star Wars franchise can now become like the James Bond franchise with endless movies. It is never ending now, like Star Trek too. There is plenty of material for 100 movies easily. They can work hard and closely on these movies to make them good or they can rush them out as quick cheap money making junkers. They are not going to use some old novel to continue the base storyline as Lucas has had plenty of time to come up with an idea that Disney can brainstorm off of and create their own Star Wars movies. With certain guidance from people they will keep it in line with the same feel and atmosphere as the other movies.


I would prefer they don't disregard EU canon. It would just make for an even more confusing mess.


magnuskn wrote:
Werthead wrote:
Agreed on Wizards, whose RP division may simply never recover from the debacle of 4E, but the fan-controversy over BioWare has arguably not affected them too much financially. MASS EFFECT 3 was still their fastest-selling game ever and I believe is now their biggest-selling game. DA2 was more disappointing, but still hardly a massive financial failure.

BioWares reputation is in the dumpster after the fiascos with DA2, ME3 and SWTOR. Their founders had to leave the company ( and if you believe that they did so just because they wanted to do something else with their lifes, I'll sell you a bridge in San Francisco ) and they broke trust with their fans. That will have consequences in the future. Yeah, people still bought those games and a lot of that had to do with the faith BioWare had built over the years with those fans. Future games will tell the story.

And hey, maybe I am wrong there, but that is what I am seeing. If you have a loyal fanbase, it is generally a horrible idea to tick them off and cross your fingers that new fans will appear to replace the old. Smart companies try to keep both groups happy.

SWTOR didn't fall flat because they ignored canon, or anything to do with lore. It fell flat because it was a boring multiplayer game, but was a decent single player game. Unfortunately, that's a bad recipe for a MMO.


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magnuskn wrote:

And yet there is no need to obliterate the EU to please those fans. It is entirely possible to just keep the EU complex details on the lowdown and tell a story in whatever canon timeline one chooses.

And that people will complain a bit if their favorite storyline is not adapted 100% faithfully to the big screen ( or television, see Game of Thrones ) is always to be expected. It still would work out much better than just destroying the EU canon.

It depends on what they want to do. What story they want to tell.

I don't think they should go out of their way to obliterate canon. I just don't think they need to consider themselves bound by it, if they want to do something different with Han & Leia's kids for example.

Keeping to or avoiding all the canon limits their options more than is needed.
Make good movies. Make them compatible with the other movies. If they fit the EU canon, great. If they don't, don't worry about it.


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Irontruth wrote:
SWTOR didn't fall flat because they ignored canon, or anything to do with lore. It fell flat because it was a boring multiplayer game, but was a decent single player game. Unfortunately, that's a bad recipe for a MMO.

I think the reason SWTOR failed was a bit more multilayered than that and also had roots in how the story was presented ( i.e. "choice" did not really mean as much as BW made it out to be ). The point I was making, though, is simply that BioWare has lost a ton of trust with people, because they screwed up so much. Lost of trust is not something which can be as easily measured as the current revenue their last games made ( which can be traced back to that foundation of trust ), but more how their next games will be received by fans, how the general view of fans in regards to BioWare has changed, and so on.

thejeff wrote:

It depends on what they want to do. What story they want to tell.

I don't think they should go out of their way to obliterate canon. I just don't think they need to consider themselves bound by it, if they want to do something different with Han & Leia's kids for example.

Keeping to or avoiding all the canon limits their options more than is needed.
Make good movies. Make them compatible with the other movies. If they fit the EU canon, great. If they don't, don't worry about it.

The question simply is: "Do they need to destroy canon to make a good movie?". And I think the answer is: No. A very good movie can be made without even touching the existing canon. And easily so.


Do they need to destroy canon to make a good movie? Yes, they do. JJ Abrams did when he made the new Star Trek. It was a great movie, because he didn't give a f^&* about canon. He set out just to make a great movie, and that's all. He didn't have to rewrite his scripts based on Star Trek tech discussions. That actually happened in ST:TNG.

Hopefully, Disney will hire a great writer for the script, and a great director for the movie. It could even be the same person. When you do that, it usually ends up being a great movie. The only canon the new writer/director needs to follow is from the first six episodes. That's it! Anything else is a waste of time...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
magnuskn wrote:


thejeff wrote:

It depends on what they want to do. What story they want to tell.

I don't think they should go out of their way to obliterate canon. I just don't think they need to consider themselves bound by it, if they want to do something different with Han & Leia's kids for example.

Keeping to or avoiding all the canon limits their options more than is needed.
Make good movies. Make them compatible with the other movies. If they fit the EU canon, great. If they don't, don't worry about it.

The question simply is: "Do they need to destroy canon to make a good movie?". And I think the answer is: No. A very good movie can be made without even touching the existing canon. And easily so.

Yes, a good movie can be made. But will it be what people want? I'm guessing people want to see the trials of the next generation of Skywalkers, and to do that they need to touch on content in the current EU. The easiest way for them to do that is to ignore it. They wont ignore everything, but enough of it that they can make the movie they want.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Farael the Fallen wrote:

Do they need to destroy canon to make a good movie? Yes, they do. JJ Abrams did when he made the new Star Trek. It was a great movie, because he didn't give a f^&* about canon. He set out just to make a great movie, and that's all. He didn't have to rewrite his scripts based on Star Trek tech discussions. That actually happened in ST:TNG.

Hopefully, Disney will hire a great writer for the script, and a great director for the movie. It could even be the same person. When you do that, it usually ends up being a great movie. The only canon the new writer/director needs to follow is from the first six episodes. That's it! Anything else is a waste of time...

Your conclusions come from no place which has any correlation with logic.

Caineach wrote:
Yes, a good movie can be made. But will it be what people want? I'm guessing people want to see the trials of the next generation of Skywalkers, and to do that they need to touch on content in the current EU. The easiest way for them to do that is to ignore it. They wont ignore everything, but enough of it that they can make the movie they want.

People want a good Star Wars movie. You can make a good Star Wars movie without destroying the current continuity. Why piss off a significant part of your fanbase for no reason? A good belly laugh? It's like burning dollar bills.


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Farael the Fallen wrote:

Do they need to destroy canon to make a good movie? Yes, they do. JJ Abrams did when he made the new Star Trek. It was a great movie, because he didn't give a f^&* about canon. He set out just to make a great movie, and that's all. He didn't have to rewrite his scripts based on Star Trek tech discussions. That actually happened in ST:TNG.

Hopefully, Disney will hire a great writer for the script, and a great director for the movie. It could even be the same person. When you do that, it usually ends up being a great movie. The only canon the new writer/director needs to follow is from the first six episodes. That's it! Anything else is a waste of time...

You do realize that everything in the original Star Trek universe is still canon, right? It just takes place in a different universe.


magnuskn wrote:
I still say Star Wars: Legacy would be the way to go. Tons of cool protagonists and antagonists, interesting setting, good story. Sadly it seems that they want to go with something completely original, which will probably invalidate that timeline. Le sigh.

I truly loved legacy. FOR THE ONE SITH!


magnuskn wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
SWTOR didn't fall flat because they ignored canon, or anything to do with lore. It fell flat because it was a boring multiplayer game, but was a decent single player game. Unfortunately, that's a bad recipe for a MMO.

I think the reason SWTOR failed was a bit more multilayered than that and also had roots in how the story was presented ( i.e. "choice" did not really mean as much as BW made it out to be ). The point I was making, though, is simply that BioWare has lost a ton of trust with people, because they screwed up so much. Lost of trust is not something which can be as easily measured as the current revenue their last games made ( which can be traced back to that foundation of trust ), but more how their next games will be received by fans, how the general view of fans in regards to BioWare has changed, and so on.

thejeff wrote:

It depends on what they want to do. What story they want to tell.

I don't think they should go out of their way to obliterate canon. I just don't think they need to consider themselves bound by it, if they want to do something different with Han & Leia's kids for example.

Keeping to or avoiding all the canon limits their options more than is needed.
Make good movies. Make them compatible with the other movies. If they fit the EU canon, great. If they don't, don't worry about it.

The question simply is: "Do they need to destroy canon to make a good movie?". And I think the answer is: No. A very good movie can be made without even touching the existing canon. And easily so.

No, it was a bad MMO. PvP was meh mostly, with a couple bright spots. End game PvE was boring as snot. The most interesting aspect of the game was the story line while leveling. It wasn't the leveling itself, just the story you were being told, and even there I agree they didn't do as well as they had previously in other games. The problem though, is that that aspect is the least important part of a good MMO. A good MMO has addictive gameplay that encourages you to group with other people to do stuff. SWTOR did not have that.

Seriously, there boss design might have been bleeding edge about 8 years ago... but it was the exact same stuff I've seen in the half dozen MMOs I've played in the past decade. Of the flashpoints, the most interesting one was on the imperial side, the first one you encounter. It felt like it had action and lots going on, though nothing about it was challenging in anyway. But WoW has had similar instances since Burning Crusade, so again, nothing innovative.

Their only innovation was to make the world's first MSO (massively single-player online).

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