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Barbarian / Rogue?


Advice

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Just got a short notice invite to a game... and I would like to play a class combo I have never tried. The GM mentioned it would be in an urban setting, with social, trap, and combat elements.

In short, i would like to play a Barbarian Rogue. Has anyone got any advice or builds up their sleeve? I haven't had time to work a build out yet.

Thanks in advance!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Urban Barbarian archetype. Avoid Rogue.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Also, the "Trap Guy" is a totally irrelevant and unneeded role in Pathfinder.


but Social Guy is in this campaign, and everyone else is playing low skill point characters. So it falls to me.

Plus, the main point here is that I have never tried it, but would like to. So telling me to get rid of rogue doesn't really help.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

What books are allowed?

What races are allowed?


Rogue works. A bard gets all the knowledge and social skills, so that might be a good choice if nobody else has them.

It also depends on how rogue-y you want to be. A level of rogue will drop your BAB, but only the first level. Each of the first 4 rogue levels offers something that works well for an urban barb, the best part being all those skill points. With 2d6 sneak, evasion and uncanny dodge, you can mix it up in melee and hit hard without worrying much about getting flanked yourself.

Try to have a 12+ int, and you'll have more ranks to throw around. Toughness would keep your hit points up, and let you put your favored class bonus into skills, too. Just some thoughts.


What race do you plan to play?


any book. i want to keep to core races,but thats a personal preference, not a must. Preferably human.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

What do you want from Rogue?

What do you want from Barbarian?


Stacking rage and power attack with sneak attack is pretty exciting. I've played this combo before. Before you go investing too many levels in rogue though, find out how much flank assistance you'll be getting from your allies.


Barbarian is a good multiclass for rogues, the converse is not so true. I would say go primarily as a dex based -rogue with a couple of levels dip as urban barbarian.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Vivisectionist Alchemist syncs much better than Rogue with Barbarian.

It's a classic strong combo.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Vivisectionist Alchemist syncs much better than Rogue with Barbarian.

It's a classic strong combo.

Since the Op wants a hihg skill character I think a rogue fit better.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Nicos wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Vivisectionist Alchemist syncs much better than Rogue with Barbarian.

It's a classic strong combo.

Since the Op wants a hihg skill character I think a rogue fit better.

No mention of that. Both have 4 skill points a level. Should be fine.

Cheliax

My favorite way to do Barbarian/Rogue is high strength, greatsword, and power attack.

You definitly want to go barbarian at first level, because the big weakness of this build is that it's low AC and rogue levels lose out on a lot of HP.

I would suggest being a half-orc, and being a thuggish character.

Sczarni

I have to side with blackbloodtroll on this. You will get more synergy and an all around more enjoyable experience going Vivisectionist Alchemist with Urban Barbarian.

You get sneak attack, the same skills, the mutagen, extracts like Enlarge Person and Shield, AND some of the Discoveries from Alchemist can be REALLY good combos with an Urban Barbarian (Extra Arms, Feral Mutagen, Crit Negate Chance, etc.)

Now, I can't stop you going Rogue/Barbarian, so if that is the route you wanna go its pretty straight forward...pick up a decent damage reach weapon and go to town on enemies.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Savage/Urban Barbarian, with a dex focus, going into Vivisectionist Alchemist.

Dervish Dance is a good path, though the Unarmed/Natural Attack with Agile AoMF route is good.

Shadow Lodge

I've seen the barb/rogue combo work very well actually. In a campaign I was in a buddy did it with a dwarf using a dorn-dugar (the dwarven ball and chain weapon) the adjustable reach and good damage die was fun and made flanking easier. He could end things pretty quickly.

Shadow Lodge

Of course a Barb/ Nin could be interesting...


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Best way to start the advice, is for you to answer two questions:

What do you want from Barbarian?

What do you want from Rogue?

Sczarni

And what content are you allowed to use...?


ossian666 wrote:
And what content are you allowed to use...?

Sixth post down he said: any book. i want to keep to core races,but thats a personal preference, not a must. Preferably human.

Anyhow, I agree with the others that say that the Viv/Barb are a good match utilizing their archetypes to improve yourself.


Barbarian/Scout Rogue, sneak attack, power attack and rage on a charge for stupid amounts of damage.


Personally, I would go Barbarian /Scout rogue. Place stats like a barbarian, advance to Bbn 2/ Scout 4 or 8


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Okay, if you must absolutely go Rogue, then a dip into Thug, then full Barbarian will be a good for an Intimidate build.

You still have not answered what you want from each class though.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

To add to my previous post after doing some research, Half-Orc Barbarian 2/Scout/Skulking Slayer Rogue 4 or 8 at least. Sneak attack on charges, using a two handed weapon and getting d8s on the sneak attack dice.

Sczarni

ub3r_n3rd wrote:
ossian666 wrote:
And what content are you allowed to use...?

Sixth post down he said: any book. i want to keep to core races,but thats a personal preference, not a must. Preferably human.

Anyhow, I agree with the others that say that the Viv/Barb are a good match utilizing their archetypes to improve yourself.

Yea but usually that ends up meaning "CORE books" not the splat and paperbacks that a lot of us have.

Thug would be the best route IMO. I think you will get more out of a Rogue with that archtype than the others with Barbarian.

Cheliax

Daelen wrote:
To add to my previous post after doing some research, Half-Orc Barbarian 2/Scout/Skulking Slayer Rogue 4 or 8 at least. Sneak attack on charges, using a two handed weapon and getting d8s on the sneak attack dice.

I second half orc skulking slayer racial rogue archtype.

I think the OP wants trapfinding, so most rogue archtypes don't fit.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Trapfinding is nigh useless. Nearly every marginally decent Rogue archetype rids itself of it.

Sczarni

Its like any good Alchemist realizes Poison use isn't worth the trouble. =b

Cheliax

I've used self crafted, sticky purple worm poison to end boss encounters well before their hitpoints are gone.

I agree that trapfinding isn't mandatory, but it's not bad either in a campaign that you've been warned contains traps ahead of time, like the OP.

Although a Bard(archeaologist)6 does trapfinder better than a rogue, and it pretty solid in melee too.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Also, the "Trap Guy" is a totally irrelevant and unneeded role in Pathfinder.

All roles are unneeded ... if your DM decides to use something simple like the level 1 alarm spell infiltrating an enemy structure can become rather difficult for the "lets just put a summons on point" parties though.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Sorry. A "Trap focused" PC is not needed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Halfling rogue/barbarian. 1 level barbarian for fast movement and the ability to rage as an "oh no!" Button, then the rest rogue. Start your dex out at an 18-20, end up using a heavy shield and chain shirt at 1st level for a starting AC of 21. Later get that dark wood shield and mithral chain shirt to reduce armor check, get armor spikes and go two weapon fighting. So... many... d6's. And you'll also be getting the +2 charisma from halfling so you'll have a leg up on social skills. Maybe go for the alternate racial that bumps your speed up to a racial 30 therefore moving at 40 from barbarian. Oh, btw, weapon finesse I thought would go without saying, but might as well mention it.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, this is a nice combo, but requires some planning. Will save suffers quite a bit, rogue levels past 4th level(once you get Trap Spotter, bonus combat feat via combat trick, evasion and uncanny dodge) aren't so hot until 10th level rolls in and you get advanced talents. Do you want advanced talents? If not, then do a barbarian with a splash of rogue.

Going full dex means losing that Conan flavor, but also works well with the kind of skills you'll be using and several class abilities benefit from having a good dexterity. No need to worry about AC, if you pick urban barbarian and have a great dexterity to offset the Reckless Abandon rage power ac penalty, for instance.

Alternatively, if you are going for a certain feel, then a wild stalker ranger archetype gets many of the desired abilities without too much of a hassle: Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, lots of skill points and great class skills. Really great combat abilities as well and better saves than both the rogue and barbarian(unless using the human barbarian favored class option). Pick the Trapper archetype on the side and get trap-related abilities to boot. Be Conan!

Editor's note: Yeah, that archetype is pretty overpowered. If they didn't get spells, then it'd be so-so, but a class that does everything and has full bab? C'mon now.


Kind of like JT squish I think one level of barbarian can work well with a rogue. Take that level first to get the most HP bonuses. In addition to what he mentioned, the barbarian increases your proficiencies so if you want your Knife Master rogue to wield duel Kukris, he can. The extra movement you are getting from the level of barabarian will help you position this character to get all those extra d8s as well.


To the OP:

I have a strong suggestion. It’s not a Rogue / Barbarian but I think you will get what you are looking for out of it.

Race: Half-Orc

Traits (If allowed): Although, any traits that boost your Will saving throws would be worth considering as well, that will be your weakest save with this build, I would recommend these:

Vagabond Child:
Vagabond Child (urban): You grew up among the outcasts and outlaws of your society, learning to forage and survive in an urban environment. Select one of the following skills: Disable Device, Escape Artist, or Sleight of Hand. You gain a +1 trait bonus on that skill, and it is always a class skill for you.

Reactionary:
Reactionary: You were bullied often as a child, but never quite developed an offensive response. Instead, you became adept at anticipating sudden attacks and reacting to danger quickly. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.

Stats: Strength is the most important for this build. Dex or Con second and third; their order depending on how you want to play. Charisma is going to be fourth. Although, you might want to consider switching Chrarisma to third based on the 8th level Bandit archetype power. Int and Wis are tied for fifth and sixth depending on how exactly you want to play the character and what strengths and weaknesses you will accept.

Classes: Rogue 12 levels (Skulking Slayer and Bandit archetypes, ARG and UC) and Fighter 8 levels (Two-handed Fighter archetype, APG)

Feats: There are several I would recommend but this should get you started in the right direction:
1. Power Attack
2. Cleave
3. Great Cleave
4. Surprise Follow-through (ARG) as a Rogue Talent
5. Improved Surprise Follow-Through (ARG) as a Rogue Talent
6. Improved Dirty Trick
7. Greater Dirty Trick
8. Skill Focus Bluff
9. Deceitful
10. Quickdraw
11. Improved Critical
12. Improved Initiative
13. Weapon Focus/Specialization feats

With the 8 levels of fighter you will have access to several more feats to include the fighter only ones. This is just a list of feats that would really help this build, not a list of what order they should be taken in. I have left out the Improved Feint and Greater Feint feats because I don’t think they are necessary given the 9th level Skulking Slayer ability and the bonuses they get for Bluff to Feint. I instead would encourage the Skill Focus Bluff and Deceitful feats. However, if you wanted to push your Feinting ability over the top you could spring for all four feats and have like a +17 to your Feint checks, plus your Cha bonus, and ½ Skulking Slayer level bonus. But you could also use those other two feat slots to gain survivability feats like toughness, endurance/die hard, or Iron Will.

Rogue Talents:
1. Combat trick
2. Surprise Attack
3. Trap Spotter (if you want to boost your trap skills a little)
4. Resiliency
5. Slow Reactions
6. Befuddling Strike
7. Canny Observer (if you need to boost Perception)
8. Follow Clues (if you want to gain the a good Tracking skill)
9. Offensive Defense
10. Quick Disguise
11. Hunter’s Surprise
12. Underhanded
13. Unwitting Ally
14. Surprise Follow-Through (Skulking Slayer)
15. Improved Surprise Follow-Through (Skulking Slayer)

You are only going 12 levels in rogue so you will have to pick and choose which of these you can't go without. Again, this is not a list to be taken in order, but just some things that I think would stack well together for this character. I would also consider Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak but if you are using Power Attack regularly it might hurt your to hit bonus a little too much. Also the survivability talents like Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll are good ones. Slippery Mind in particular would help to make up for one of this builds only major weaknesses.

....

You wanted a character that is good at situations involving social, trap, and combat. This character should fit the bill on all accounts. You also wanted to be human preferably, well this character is only half human, but he does a very good job at passing for human based on archetype abilities. If you wanted to be human for strictly RP purposes than this guy can serve as human in that capacity plus give you a little more of an RP hook.

You wanted someone good with Social events. This guy will be able to pass as human with huge bonuses to Bluff and Disguise from the Skulking Slayer archetype. Pair that with Skill Focus Bluff and Decietful and you have a social professional. In addition those feats will help him pull off those Feints before a Charge for full Sneak Attack using d8s and Power Attack.

You wanted a trap man, well the only thing he can’t do is disarm magical traps. He still has Perception as a class skill and can build it up. He still gets Disable Device as a class skill thanks to his trait picks and to top it off you can pick up Trap Spotter or some other trap friendly rogue talents.

You wanted someone who can handle himself in combat, well this guy is a complete monster and he doesn’t have to go into Rage to do it.

If this isn't what you're looking for I hope it at least gives you some good ideas.

....

PS: Half-Orc has a racial alternate favored class bonus for being rogue that goes great with this: boosts their critical confirmations. I think with 12 levels you would get +4, so it's pretty much a free Critical Focus feat.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:
Sorry. A "Trap focused" PC is not needed.

What is "needed"? It's a game. Nothing is "needed".

The question is, does he want to be "The Trap Guy"?

If he answers yes, let him be the damn Trap Guy.


Rynjin wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Sorry. A "Trap focused" PC is not needed.

What is "needed"? It's a game. Nothing is "needed".

The question is, does he want to be "The Trap Guy"?

If he answers yes, let him be the damn Trap Guy.

Also, it sounds like the DM told him that traps would have a big presence in this game. So, chances are, there will be more than your run of the mill AP or module game.


Not sure why Alchemist was even brought up since the OP stated quite clearly:

Quote:
In short, i would like to play a Barbarian Rogue. Has anyone got any advice or builds up their sleeve?

He said, unequivocably that he wanted those two classes. And this is my pet peeve with this site. You people, instead of paying attention to what the OP asks, just read what you feel like reading and spouting off stupidity. Learn to read twice as much as you respond .


Solwynn bint Khalsim ibn Abdul wrote:

Not sure why Alchemist was even brought up since the OP stated quite clearly:

Quote:
In short, i would like to play a Barbarian Rogue. Has anyone got any advice or builds up their sleeve?
He said, unequivocably that he wanted those two classes. And this is my pet peeve with this site. You people, instead of paying attention to what the OP asks, just read what you feel like reading and spouting off stupidity. Learn to read twice as much as you respond .

I think you make an excellent point. However, in my own defense, I am simply not familiar with the Barbarian class or their rage powers so I used what I am more familiar with for the build I proposed: Fighter. If the OP or someone else is familiar with the specific Barbarian archetypes and/or rage powers that would go well with what I wrote about the Skulking Slayer / Bandit rogue, I suppose it would work just as well. I have not seen PF Barbarians in action yet. The only 3.5 barbarians I saw were incredibly effective at two things, killing and getting killed (due to rage dropping their AC then their extra Con going away after the rage rounds are up).


sounds like a vivisectionist alchemist to me. heavy on the mutagens.


Jt Squish wrote:
Halfling rogue/barbarian. 1 level barbarian for fast movement and the ability to rage as an "oh no!" Button, then the rest rogue. Start your dex out at an 18-20, end up using a heavy shield and chain shirt at 1st level for a starting AC of 21. Later get that dark wood shield and mithral chain shirt to reduce armor check, get armor spikes and go two weapon fighting. So... many... d6's. And you'll also be getting the +2 charisma from halfling so you'll have a leg up on social skills. Maybe go for the alternate racial that bumps your speed up to a racial 30 therefore moving at 40 from barbarian. Oh, btw, weapon finesse I thought would go without saying, but might as well mention it.

finesse won't work with shields...


Solwynn bint Khalsim ibn Abdul wrote:


He said, unequivocably that he wanted those two classes. And this is my pet peeve with this site. You people, instead of paying attention to what the OP asks, just read what you feel like reading and spouting off stupidity. Learn to read twice as much as you respond .

He said he wanted to play a Barbarian Rogue, not that he specifically was dead set on playing a Barbarian/Rogue multiclass.

By all I can tell certain Barbarian archetypes + the Vivisectionist Alchemist accomplishes much the same thing, as well as having a greater synergy with each other than Rogue/Barbarian due to certain other class features.

That's like me getting pissed off when I say I want to play a Shapeshifter Ranger because I want to be an animal man and everyone pointing out that Druid is also a valid option for that playstyle. It's okay.


I really want to answer, but I need to know what you want from Rogue first.

Trap monkeys are not as useful in Pathfinder as you might think when - Clerics, Summoners, Bards, Wizards, Druids, Rangers, and Witches (probably missed some, that is just my memory) can summon critters to open doors, trip wires, or otherwise set off the traps you come across.

If you want to use Sneak Attack, I would like to point out that Barbarian gets one of their best (IMHO) skills at tenth barbarian level, the ability to pounce.

Once you have this.. wow. Point is sacrificing levels of delay that prevent you from accessing this may not be worth it. This is just one of the many many amazing Barbarian Rage powers with level requirements that will be delayed..

So unless the 2 levels or three levels in Rogue will make up for the loss.. Might not be worth it. You can still take Cha as a Barb. Nothing says you can't decide NOT to dump Cha... Barbs get decent skill ranks... (4 if you don't dump int...)

Point is, unless you have a good reason to multi class in Pathfinder, most of the time the cost is not worth the benefit. Rule of thumb on multiclassing: Don't.


Rynjin wrote:
Solwynn bint Khalsim ibn Abdul wrote:


He said, unequivocably that he wanted those two classes. And this is my pet peeve with this site. You people, instead of paying attention to what the OP asks, just read what you feel like reading and spouting off stupidity. Learn to read twice as much as you respond .

He said he wanted to play a Barbarian Rogue, not that he specifically was dead set on playing a Barbarian/Rogue multiclass.

In fact, he DID say this:

Quote:
So telling me to get rid of rogue doesn't really help.

So telling him to play one class when he *specifically* identified another as preferable is just dumb and unhelpful.

I just went over all the posts again, and nowhere in the OP's posts did he say "oh sure, I'll go from Barb with a dash of "back-stabbing thief in the night" to Barb with a dash of "Dr Jekyll". To say it a different way, the OP may not know all the wonderful syngeries between Barb and Alchemist (I don't either, why don't you explain them please), so using your example, it would not seem counter-intuitive to go from Ranger to Druid (Both outdoorsy, works with animals may have the ability to shape-shift, etc) however, going from Grey Mouser to Dr. Jekyll...well...unless the reasons are lined out, it just sounds like the responder is just regurgitating what was said previously, with no explanation.

I guess the responder could be a real smartass and say "The reasons are out there go look for them", but how would that help the OP?

So far the only person who has tried has been Shadowlord. "Yes" I know he suggested Fighter, but he explained why as well.

And before this goes down a road neither of us wants to tread...I'm not singling you out Rynjin.


I disagree with those who are discouraging you from "no trap guy." All the methods of dealing with traps cost resources that are useful by characters at other times. Do I want the cleric casting find traps or cure light wounds. Do I want the summons tripping a trap just to find it has a fast reset time and not having that summons when an extra meat shield in an encounter would really help.

Just because abilities can be mimiced or overcome does not mean that the original ability is useless. Barbarian/rogue has always been a strong combo. Certainly the advent of other classes that offer sneak attack have offered different abilities that might be better at some aspects of the game but go with what you want.


With mention of the pounce, it might also be worth mentioning that with four levels of rogue, if you are taking the the scout archetype (which still does the trapfinding, and gets rid of uncanny dodge, which is redundant since you get that as barbarian as well), you get sneak attack on charges. So anyway you look at it..... by level 14 you are a killing machine.

With that advantage on charges, it would not be too bad to take your rogue levels a bit early (though, you might still be a barbarian for a level or two first though mainly for hit point reasons, plus to get access to martial weapons) With a greatsword, your normal charge wold have 4d6, plus strength.

So barbarian 16/rogue 4 is an excellent way to to. You'd only end up losing +1 bab overall, and you'd get an extra 16 skill points total from the rogue levels. Your reflex save would also be a bit better as well, but that would be taken from fort save, I suppose. Mainly focus on strength, dexterity, and wisdom (for will saves and perception). Constitution might seem important to barbarians, but you get most of your rage from your level anyway.


Solwynn bint Khalsim ibn Abdul wrote:


In fact, he DID say this:
I just went over all the posts again, and nowhere in the OP's posts did he say "oh sure, I'll go from Barb with a dash of "back-stabbing thief in the night" to Barb with a dash of "Dr Jekyll". To say it a different way, the OP may not know all the wonderful syngeries between Barb and Alchemist (I don't either, why don't you explain them please), so using your example, it would not seem counter-intuitive to go from Ranger to Druid (Both outdoorsy, works with animals may have the ability to shape-shift, etc) however, going from Grey Mouser to Dr. Jekyll...well...unless the reasons are lined out, it just sounds like the responder is just regurgitating what was said previously, with no explanation.

I guess the responder could be a real smartass and say "The reasons are out there go look for them", but how would that help the OP?

So far the only person who has tried has been Shadowlord. "Yes" I know he suggested Fighter, but he explained why as well.

And before this goes down a road neither of us wants to tread...I'm not singling you out Rynjin.

Thankfully, I DID go out there and look for them, and with a little copypasta magic I'm going t show them to you.

The Vivisectionist is basically a Rogue with Mutagens.

He has no bombs. Instead, he gets this:

Quote:

At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).

This ability replaces bomb.

Instead of your usual Discoveries, he can learn these:

Quote:
A vivisectionist may select the bleeding attack rogue talent in place of a discovery.
Quote:


At 10th level or later, a vivisectionist may select the crippling strike rogue talent in place of a discovery.

Now, where the extra synergy comes in is that the Vivisectionist does not lose his Mutagens. Basically, get gets Rogue features, as well as something of a Rage ability. And the bonuses stack with regular Rage.

So it is still very much a Rogue/Barbarian, but what it does is give him Rogue abilities while still STRENGTHENING the Barbarian side.

Of course, the only problem with this is he wants to be "The Trap Guy" and this doesn't grant trap spotting or magical trap disposal properties, so the point is kind of moot.

But it does not at all break the theme of Rogue Barbarian, it just breaks the specifics of Rogue/Barbarian.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The OP has made no statements on Traps.

Maybe I missed it?

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