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Clash of the Spell Titans!


Rise of the Runelords


So I was wondering,who do you think is the mightier Big Bad, Runelord Karzoug or The Whispering Tyrant?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd imagine the Whispering Tyrant to be the more powerful of the two. I imagine that he won't get stats until Pathfinder has Epic/Mythic stats in place. Having said that I like Karzoug and the Runelords in general more than I do the Whispering Tyrant as villains.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Tyrant by far. He died at the hands of a god, then managed to come back as a lich after the fact. Following that he held off numerous crusades until an artifact wrecked him and then he was still so powerful that the best anyone could do was imprison him.

Karzoug on the other hand had more of his power simply from ruling a country and enslaving giants.

I would guess that both are level 20 wizards, but Tar-Baphon is a lich and probably had some mythic powers happening too, whereas Special K sits middle of the pack among Runelords (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mcd6?Runelord-Sorshen-Spoilers#7).

Edit: I also forgot that the Tyrant killed Arazni, the herald of Aroden.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

+1 to the Tyrant.

Technically Dungeons of Golarion gives a ballpark CR for him if you look at the CR for the bottom floor of Gallowspire. (i don't have it with me offhand so can't relate the actual #)

Edit: found it. He's listed as CR 24+, and being a minimum of a necromancer 20 + lich. I fully expect him to also have Mythic levels as Tristram mentioned above.


Tristram wrote:

The Tyrant by far. He died at the hands of a god, then managed to come back as a lich after the fact. Following that he held off numerous crusades until an artifact wrecked him and then he was still so powerful that the best anyone could do was imprison him.

Karzoug on the other hand had more of his power simply from ruling a country and enslaving giants.

I would guess that both are level 20 wizards, but Tar-Baphon is a lich and probably had some mythic powers happening too, whereas Special K sits middle of the pack among Runelords (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mcd6?Runelord-Sorshen-Spoilers#7).

Sounds like my forgotten realms half drow wizard20epic10 archmage 4. He slew a Manshoon clone, the zulkir of evocation for the nation of Thay,ensorcelled and impregnated the simbul, backed down Szass Tam and Elminster on seperate occasions and destroyed 2 armies in 2 different wars, one in the silver marches and the other in the skies over the plain of giants. HE WAS EPIC!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Conundrum wrote:
Tristram wrote:

The Tyrant by far. He died at the hands of a god, then managed to come back as a lich after the fact. Following that he held off numerous crusades until an artifact wrecked him and then he was still so powerful that the best anyone could do was imprison him.

Karzoug on the other hand had more of his power simply from ruling a country and enslaving giants.

I would guess that both are level 20 wizards, but Tar-Baphon is a lich and probably had some mythic powers happening too, whereas Special K sits middle of the pack among Runelords (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mcd6?Runelord-Sorshen-Spoilers#7).

Sounds like my forgotten realms half drow wizard20epic10 archmage 4. He slew a Manshoon clone, the zulkir of evocation for the nation of Thay,ensorcelled and impregnated the simbul, backed down Szass Tam and Elminster on seperate occasions and destroyed 2 armies in 2 different wars, one in the silver marches and the other in the skies over the plain of giants. HE WAS EPIC!

The Wiz5/M.Spec10/Arch5 my buddy ran in my WotBS campaign what heading down this sort of path and no doubt would have done something along those lines had the campaign continued past level 20.

As a special treat to my players I will have him in place of the Runelord of Sloth when/if the party makes it to/through my post RotR plans.

@Rathendar: Only 24? This disappoints me. Leska weighed in at a hefty CR 28.


Chances are, Tar-Baphon is mythic, so he is level 24 AND has probably enough mythic levels to be just shy of demigodhood. Remember, he killed Aroden's herald, a demigod herself.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tristram wrote:


@Rathendar: Only 24? This disappoints me. Leska weighed in at a hefty CR 28.

To be fair to Paizo, when the product was made Mythic has not been announced and APL+4 is basically the highest encounter block their system 'reasonably' supports. so 20+4 would give the 24. the '+' is the designers saying "well, campaign needs vary, but he should be at the absolute minimum 'this'." If you were to ask James Jacobs this question now,(and he had a solid decision in place) i suspect that number would probably go up by a couple points.

On the flip side, defeating a Herald is a feat that you would ascribe to one at the pinnacle of attainable power. (being a level 20 character fits that criteria.) When you look at the Heralds of the deities in the various AP's they appear in they tend to be CR15+.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just looking at the mythology of Golarion, in a one-on-one fight between the Runelord of Greed and the Whispering Tyrant... I'd give four-to-one odds in favor of Tar-Baphon.


Shouldn't a single 20th level character be able to defeat a cr 19 by themselves? If I was 20th and struggling with a cr 15, solo or not I'd be ashamed.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, Tar-Baphon is listed as being level "20+" in Inner Sea Magic.

And he's a lich.


Actually was directing that toward Rathedar. I should have specified.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rathendar wrote:
Tristram wrote:


@Rathendar: Only 24? This disappoints me. Leska weighed in at a hefty CR 28.

To be fair to Paizo, when the product was made Mythic has not been announced and APL+4 is basically the highest encounter block their system 'reasonably' supports. so 20+4 would give the 24. the '+' is the designers saying "well, campaign needs vary, but he should be at the absolute minimum 'this'." If you were to ask James Jacobs this question now,(and he had a solid decision in place) i suspect that number would probably go up by a couple points.

On the flip side, defeating a Herald is a feat that you would ascribe to one at the pinnacle of attainable power. (being a level 20 character fits that criteria.) When you look at the Heralds of the deities in the various AP's they appear in they tend to be CR15+.

In retrospect the "+" in 24+ does account for exceeding the CR max that Pathfinder has, but after you've been awake for 18 hours you tend to miss certain small details like that. It also doesn't help that while Leska is ridiculous BBEG (cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 10/hierophant 1/archmage 5/loremaster 2/ thaumaturge 4 with regenerate 30), I always imagined Tar-Baphon as being well past her. The not having epic rules still throws me off, even having played Pathfinder for 2 years now.


As everyone has already stated we are not fully aware of what Tar-Baphon is technically capable of, but just guessing with a hypothetical duel between these two, I think it would come down to whoever could get the advantage first. When they both are that good I think it comes down to who makes the first mistake, or who can take the most advantage of the situation. Chances are, two mind numbingly brilliant individuals such as these would not come to the showdown alone or without a few bags of tricks.

That being said I would say that the fight would never happen. A good rule to follow when you sit down at the poker table is to never bump heads with the other good players, and to always take advantage of the weaker players. I think the same good advice goes for high level spell duals. Two CR 20+ spellcasters with everything to lose would probably have nothing to prove to themselves by trying to take out the other guy for the heck of it.


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Tar-Baphon and Karzoug get into a fight, who wins?

Geb.


@Lord Worcestershire sauce of perrins: I agree now that while Karzoug might be the #30 ranked NBA ball club and Tar Baphon more like 5th, they're still both professional teams and neither could be counted out before the contest was over. However, in gambling terms I think the odds certainly favor Tar Baphon to win most engagements between the two.


I'm throwing my hat in with Tar-Baphon too. He is likely waaay more powerful in terms of sheer magic power. So if we were to place them in a forgotten Realms-style spell-duel, then Tar Baphon would likely come out the victor.

If we on the other hand imagine a scenario where both mage-titans were pitched against eachother, not in a duel, but rather just using whatever means at their disposal when they were at their peak, to battle eachother, empire vs empire style, then it becomes alot closer.

In such a situation I think I'd put my money on Karzoug. If we remove all outside contenders and let them fight each other empire to empire, Tar-Baphon without having to worry about the crusades, and Karzoug without having to worry about his rival runelords, it's my belief that the runelord of greed would come out on top.

Just a thought though :)


Since I would totally not be surprised to see Tar-Baphon be stated out as a level 20 Wizard + tier 10 Mythic Lich (what is that, a CR 34?), I'm pretty sure he would easily win against Karzoug.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If we are including all the resources at their disposal then yeah, it does narrow it down quite a bit. But then again, what time period? That does make all the difference considering neither's rule overlapped the other.

Assuming some crazy vortex ripped both them and their holdings into another plane (Ravenloft?!) and they ended up duking it out, I would agree that the odds swing closer towards Karzoug. Yes I know Tar-Baphon had hordes of orcs, but how many is that? Karzoug had armies of enhanced giants at his disposal (and disposal is a very accurate word here).

Then again, being wizards they could probably sidestep the opposing forces and bring things face to face if need be. What's the worse that could happen? The Whispering Tyrant loses and reforms near his phylactery having learned his opponents weaknesses? (Albiet, this does give Karzoug some time to make strategical decisions/locate the phylactery while Tar-Baphon's forces are leaderless)

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