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Is Sunder a viable strategy for PFS?


Advice

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Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

@ Diego Rossi: How is it any different? Because one is natural and the other is artificial? Just because one is a lemon and the other is an orange doesn't mean that their construction isn't similar or even comparable.

An Amulet of Natural Armor grants a Natural Armor Enhancement Bonus, which specifically stacks with regular Natural Armor Bonuses.

The same concept applies. A +1 Armor provides an additional +1 Enhancement Bonus to AC, which also stacks with any other amount granted by whatever armor is utilized. If I have a Full Plate, it grants 9 AC. If I have a Full Plate +1, it still grants 9 AC, but it provides an additional +1 Enhancement Bonus to my AC.

The thing is, if RAW says Sunder affects the total armor granted, then yes the Enhancement Bonus provided by the armor would also apply. If RAW says Sunder only affects the normal amount of armor granted, then a +1 Half Plate would grant 5 AC total, not 4 AC, due to its Enhancement Bonus not being a part of the normal armor amount.

You get natural armor from:

- your race
- some feat
- some archetype
- I don't recall any artificial item giving natural armor
So, what is there to sunder to remove the natural armor?

You get a armor bonus to AC
- from physical armor
- (generally) you get the armor enhancement from the enchantment on the same armor.
So if one is broken the other is broken too and both halve their benefit.

Sczarni

you can sunder an amulet of natural armor...


Bim Mirak wrote:
Krodjin wrote:

Basically the character I am going to create is a Monk - the more people I hear whine & complain about how bad Monks are the more I want to play one.

I felt the same way and saw it as a challenge, but the truth is I don't like playing my monk character. I don't know what it is exactly, but I everytime we play I wish I was just playing a fighter.

Probably when you saw yourself doing pretty much the same thing as the fighter but with less damage and more misses.


My point was that the Enhancement Bonus to AC provided by the armor is a separate bonus from that of the armor itself. It raises the question of Piecemeal equipment (which is pretty much a laugh and a half in and of itself) and how an Enhancement Bonus would interact with such (should it be imbued with magical properties), as well as many other things.

As far as the Natural Armor comparison, it parallels my point that an Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor should be no different than an Enhancement Bonus to Manufactured Armor in terms of what benefits it grants, as well as the type.

Of course, RAW does state that it cuts down the total bonus granted by the armor in half so in these terms, it's pointless to argue such. In other terms, such as stacking, it's important to note, since some special properties do not stack with the actual enhancement modifiers.


johnlocke90 wrote:
Bim Mirak wrote:
Krodjin wrote:

Basically the character I am going to create is a Monk - the more people I hear whine & complain about how bad Monks are the more I want to play one.

I felt the same way and saw it as a challenge, but the truth is I don't like playing my monk character. I don't know what it is exactly, but I everytime we play I wish I was just playing a fighter.
Probably when you saw yourself doing pretty much the same thing as the fighter but with less damage and more misses.

Nah, a Paladin/Anti-Paladin is a much better choice. They get better saves, all kinds of immunities, the same awesome armor, skill points, equivalent amount of feats, and overall better features than a Fighter. With what a Paladin/Anti-Paladin gets for their abilities, compared to a silly Fighter, the choice is obvious.


I always thought that a magic item lost it's magic properties when broken. So broken magic armor would provide half of the base value with no enhancement.


What RAW says that a broken magic item has no magical properties?

A destroyed magical item has no properties, even upon restoration.


I'm not saying it is RAW, I don't have a page to site. Then again, what RAW says that it does still have half it's magical properties (or all as some people suggest).

I'm saying that is what me and my group thought it was. I guess it was just an assumption on our part.

A broken blender doesn't chop food until it is fixed. A broken magic item doesn't do magic until restored to working condition. Until I read this thread I would never have considered that it would do half it's magic.

Does a broken wand cast spells half the time? Does a broken glove of storing move half of an object into an extradimensional space?


Ok... I have seen this come up in debate so many times, but no-where in the FAQ has it been edited.

Sunder is argued to be a standard action, but nowhere is that stated.

I know that vital strike was clarified just so it won't work on a charge, (which i disagree with), but it is there.

Sunder, trip, and disarm are the three listed that can be used in place of a melee attack, and also with a monks flurry of blows. The others all list a standard action, and bull rush/overrun also add as part of a charge.

The ones that aren't, bull rush, overrun, reposition, steal, dirty trick, drag, all have feats in Ultimate Combat to make them able to be substituted for an iterative attack (Quick x feat).

So, what constitutes the argument that Sunder is a standard action when it specifically does not say that, and adds that it can be used in place of a melee attack?

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

I'm not saying it is RAW, I don't have a page to site. Then again, what RAW says that it does still have half it's magical properties (or all as some people suggest).

I'm saying that is what me and my group thought it was. I guess it was just an assumption on our part.

A broken blender doesn't chop food until it is fixed. A broken magic item doesn't do magic until restored to working condition. Until I read this thread I would never have considered that it would do half it's magic.

Does a broken wand cast spells half the time? Does a broken glove of storing move half of an object into an extradimensional space?

Actually, a broken wand uses twice as many charges each time you use it.

The broken condition is described in the glossary.

PRD wrote:

Items that have taken damage in excess of half their total hit points gain the broken condition, meaning they are less effective at their designated task. The broken condition has the following effects, depending upon the item.

If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit.
If the item is a suit of armor or a shield, the bonus it grants to AC is halved, rounding down. Broken armor doubles its armor check penalty on skills.
If the item is a tool needed for a skill, any skill check made with the item takes a –2 penalty.
If the item is a wand or staff, it uses up twice as many charges when used.
If the item does not fit into any of these categories, the broken condition has no effect on its use. Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value. If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a mending or make whole spell cast by a character with a caster level equal to or higher than the item's. Items lose the broken condition if the spell restores the object to half its original hit points or higher. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 Craft check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item's total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined).

Gloves of storing aren't armor, weapons, tools needed for a skill, or wands/staves, so they'd function normally while broken. They would, however, sell for less than non-broken gloves.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
lantzkev wrote:
you can sunder an amulet of natural armor...

It would stop working only if it is destroyed, a broken amulet of natural armor work normally:

PDF wrote:

If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit.

If the item is a suit of armor or a shield, the bonus it grants to AC is halved, rounding down. Broken armor doubles its armor check penalty on skills.
If the item is a tool needed for a skill, any skill check made with the item takes a –2 penalty.
If the item is a wand or staff, it uses up twice as many charges when used.
If the item does not fit into any of these categories, the broken condition has no effect on its use.
Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value. If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a mending or make whole spell cast by a character with a caster level equal to or higher than the item's. Items lose the broken condition if the spell restores the object to half its original hit points or higher. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 Craft check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item's total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined).

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

I'm not saying it is RAW, I don't have a page to site. Then again, what RAW says that it does still have half it's magical properties (or all as some people suggest).

I'm saying that is what me and my group thought it was. I guess it was just an assumption on our part.

A broken blender doesn't chop food until it is fixed. A broken magic item doesn't do magic until restored to working condition. Until I read this thread I would never have considered that it would do half it's magic.

Does a broken wand cast spells half the time? Does a broken glove of storing move half of an object into an extradimensional space?

See above for the rule citation.

"Broken" is probably a misnomer, it should be called "malfunctioning" or, as it is the effect of damaging the object, "damaged".

A broken car normally don't move, a damaged one can move, but would have problems steering or will be missing some light or any other kind of damage.

As we are using in game definition "broken" is a condition that define a damaged item can still function, albeit badly; "destroyed" is a condition that define an item unable to work.


Ok, my bad.

I had never noticed that in the book.
Didn't know that broken in game doesn't really mean broken.

Shadow Lodge

TgMaxMaxer wrote:
If you get all of your PP for PFS modules, you qualify to buy an adamantine 2h weapon after your 7th game, but you don't have the gold unless you played up or are still in a loincloth with your starter gear.

You can buy an adamantite weapon, or even a +1 adamantite weapon, any time you can afford it. They're on the always available list.

Andoran

A couple of options to think about:
Lore Warden Fighter is hard to beat for any combat maneuver, since they get a level-based bonus to generic CMB (and CMD); along with qualifying for Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling.

And you would want to add the Dueling property, from the Pathfinder SOciety Field Guide, to your weapon.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Ok... I have seen this come up in debate so many times, but no-where in the FAQ has it been edited.

Sunder is argued to be a standard action, but nowhere is that stated.

I know that vital strike was clarified just so it won't work on a charge, (which i disagree with), but it is there.

Sunder, trip, and disarm are the three listed that can be used in place of a melee attack, and also with a monks flurry of blows. The others all list a standard action, and bull rush/overrun also add as part of a charge.

The ones that aren't, bull rush, overrun, reposition, steal, dirty trick, drag, all have feats in Ultimate Combat to make them able to be substituted for an iterative attack (Quick x feat).

So, what constitutes the argument that Sunder is a standard action when it specifically does not say that, and adds that it can be used in place of a melee attack?

De-rail:
There's a huge rules thread on the topic, but here's the summary:

Sunder includes language not present in any other maneuver's text: "as part of an attack action". There is debate as to whether or not it's supposed to say that (for example, see my theory), but in the meantime, it uses the "attack action" which has been stated three different times by Jason Bulmahn to be a type of standard action. (I can provide links if you like.)

So, that's the sunder issue in a nutshell. But please take additional questions/commentary on that subject to the existing thread in the rules section (the one with ~1,000 posts).


If the broken condition is what you want then there is no,loss of loot. But if your in the heat of battle and want to obliterate the main enemies weapon their using to kick your parties backside, you can't do that without losing the value of the item or it's use. That's probably why I won't go greater sunder on my barbarian for many levels because the loss of loot is so high if I decide to destroy it.


Except in PFS the rules state that the PCs get the items no matter what.

Your approach is the common-sense coherent one, certainly.


@Jiggy
wasn't trying to de-rail... just saw the argument on it and could not dig thru anywhere to find it officially.

@BigNorseWolf

Ok. was misinformed on the fame req for special materials by an undereducated PFS source. Still, 3000g is ~6-7 games at ~500g/game unless you play up, so the outcome is still valid. unless you actually played up to a higher tier, at which point you will be off on WBL anyways.

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