Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

RPG Superstar 2015

Negating the big four for illusionists


Advice


I'd like to play an illusionist, preferabilly a gnome illusionist, my thoughts are for him to be that old guy that has a solution for EVERYTHING because he's come across it atleast once before (and tells about that time before while taking care of the problem now)

The problem with playing an illusionist is what I call, the big four; vermin, undead, plants, and constructs. I know with sorcerers you can affect vermin by taking the pestilence bloodline and undead can be effected by both the metamagic feat and the sorcerer undead bloodline. Anyone have any ways (feats, classes, items, anything) to effect the other two? I've heard that the verdant bloodline allows you to affect plants but I looked and don't see that in there at all so if im over looking it please point it out for me, and is there anything that allows you to affect constructs?

My thoughts are to go sorc./oracle (oracle for the awesome display ability ofcourse) and then to help the two classes synergise go into mystic theurge, but I hold no aligence to anyone class that's just my first idea to beadle to affect the most and have powerful illusions. Any other ideas are appreciated my main thing I want to stick to is the character idea listed in the first section.


Wait make that 5, I completely forgot about oozes


I suggest mixing in a few conjuration spells.

I know you want to focus on illusions, but consider that someone who lies all the time is not an effective liar. Most people who hear him will know to expect that he's lying, and thus he won't fool anyone. You have to mix in some truth to keep people guessing.

In the case of an illusionist, some of the things you make appear out of thin air need to be real. That silent image of a greenish-yellow cloud will be all the more effective if your opponent has felt the pain of a real acid fog. Alternatively, if you cast the illusion first and they figure it out, you can sucker them into running headlong into the real thing.

Conjurations, of course, affect vermin, plants, undead, and constructs with no problem.


I don't think you can make illusions affect everything if that is what you mean. I don't think a wizard with the solution for everything would restrict himself to only one school. That actually sounds more like the non-specialized. But if you are going there...

I would suggest a single level of crossblooded sorcerer.
Pestilence to affect vermin.
Groveborn to have compulsions affect plants (not illusion, but closest I could find).
Metamagic to affect undead.

I think you will just have to keep some other spells prepared to affect oozes and constructs.


Keep in mind, spells like shadow conjuration and shadow evocation are not mind-affecting. Mindless enemies will not automatically succeed on their saving throws against them, and since a lot of those enemies you're worried about have low will saves, these spells should work even better against them.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Illusions are divided into a bunch of subtypes, and not all of them are mind-affecting;

Figment: creates a fake thing, but it's not mind-affecting

Glamer: not mind-affecting; affects how some object appears, doesn't alter the observer

Pattern: mind-affecting. No luck here.

Phantasm: alters someone's perceptions; mind-affecting.

Shadow: creates a partially-real thing; not mind-affecting.

The rules for illusion-school spells are a bit craftier than most schools; know them well.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo--- arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/illusion


Well, others have covered how to deal with the mindless, I'll try and cover class choice.

I would recommend thinking long and hard before going Sorcerer/Oracle/Mystic Theurge. It might seem like a good idea (lots of spells! One casting stat!), but there are some severe drawbacks. Mystic Theurge doesn't advance your non-casting abilities, so your Oracle Revelations and Sorcerer Bloodline powers will be stuck at level 4. You will also be casting spells at a VERY low level, as in 4 caster levels and 2.5 spell levels lower than a traditional caster. It can be tough to keep up when you are casting minor image at the level a Wizard has persistent image and phantasmal web.

You would probably be better off with straight sorcerer, since they get most of the awesome illusion spells. If you want to go Oracle I'd recommend the Veiled Illusionist prestige class. It lets you grap illusion spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list, which is pretty darn important given how few are normally available to Clerics/Oracles. You won't improve your revelations or curse, but if you pick things where level isn't super important it shouldn't be a problem.


Quite a few Illusion spells are not mind-affecting, and thus work on all of the "big four" or five or whatever. Yes, Phantasms are Mind Affecting, but Silent Image and Mirror Image aren't.


just have shadow gambit feat, it lets your illusions do real damage to anything, albeit very crappy damage for what it takes. lets you deal with any situation though with it's versatility.

and previous posters are correct. invisibility, major image, mirror image, blur, ghost sound are all illusion spells that are not mind affecting so they work on just about everything.

look into effortless trickery and threatening illusion feats too (definitely be a gnome)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Silent Image and mirror image wont work on things with blinds sense or tremor sense. So oozes, plants, and some undead just see through it.


You've got an entire spell list to work with. Pick up disrupt undead and command undead, and you're largely fine. Tiny hut is a force effect, and screens out incorporeals.

Also, you're rarely going to be on your own. Spells like haste help you deal with constructs, by making your melee guys more powerful.

Finally, do not go sor/oracle/MT. You'll be 6th level, and you STILL won't have 2nd level spells. Other spell casters will have third level spells by then, and the more spells advantage you had at 2nd level will have vanished.


Really, really don't go MT, for the reasons other people have stated. Also, none of those things you mentioned are immune to most of your illusions. Being a gnome is good with this, you can get your DC through the roof and effortless trickery is gold.

Actually, none of those things you mentioned are inherently immune to illusions--just mind-effecting stuff. You can use minor image to create a sweet taste on a particular section of floor to keep a vermin swarm at bay, for instance.

If you go Sorcerer, the Shadow or Umbral bloodlines are fantastic.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

I don't think you can make illusions affect everything if that is what you mean. I don't think a wizard with the solution for everything would restrict himself to only one school. That actually sounds more like the non-specialized. But if you are going there...

I would suggest a single level of crossblooded sorcerer.
Pestilence to affect vermin.
Groveborn to have compulsions affect plants (not illusion, but closest I could find).
Metamagic to affect undead.

I think you will just have to keep some other spells prepared to affect oozes and constructs.

How often do you encounter vermin and plant creatures as opposed to undead though? You find undead from 1st to 20th level, though will saves are their good save when you get to higher levels.

I'd say you run into Oozes at lower levels, and Constructs at higher levels a lot more than plants and vermin. Though I'm not sure anything out there lets you affect those kinds of creatures with the spells you are talking about.

I just think being able to affect undead is a lot more important than the vermin or plants.


If you read Groveborn's Bloodline Arcana closely, it will allow you to use your mind-affecting illusions against plant creatures.

Groveborn's Bloodline Arcana wrote:
Your powers of compulsion can affect even plant creatures. Whenever you cast a mind-affecting or language-dependent spell, it affects creatures of the plant type as if they were humanoids that understood your language.


rkraus2 wrote:
Tiny hut is a force effect, and screens out incorporeals.

Why would it do that? The hut isn't described as keeping out anyone; it doesn't keep out attacks or spells either. This isn't a force wall, just a sort of curtain.


Illusions are actually quite useful versus mindless creatures, in that they include figments (which are not mind-affecting).

An interesting feature of mindless beings is that they at once (i) have a sense of self-preservation (they defend themselves) and (ii) lack curiosity or real "planning" ability.

So a an illusory Wall of Fire will hem in a zombie horde, for example, because they can't say "I think I'll interact with the wall to see if it's real" (and if they did they'd likely fail the save), and they certainly aren't planning on moving through it (they'd be destroyed), so they're pretty much checked.

Same with vermin, plants (which can see) and non-golem constructs.

Obviously, oozes and plants which don't "see" aren't subject to illusions, but there may be other tricky things (like ghost sound nearby to attract a certain ooze or plant, or (GM's call) to spoof tremorsense) available.

That said, *any* specialist needs some off-the-main tricks (my main arcanist is a fey sorceress specializing in enchantment, but she balances this with a specialty in necromancy and some other kinds of controller-y things).

The one-trick pony is really the province of theorycrafting (or maybe the NPC)!


dotting.


Shadow magic should help as well. Also, I think shadow evocation and shadow conjuration are great spells for any spontaneous caster because they offer a ton of versatility. Sure a shadow summon may not have a lot of hp, but if you're using it to scout traps or ride around on, then no big deal.


also i would like to point out a gnome with effortless trickery can indefinitely concentrate on a shadow conjuration rain of frogs. which is HILARIOUS.


asthyril wrote:
also i would like to point out a gnome with effortless trickery can indefinitely concentrate on a shadow conjuration rain of frogs. which is HILARIOUS.

Oh man, ya. If your GM lets you get Effortless Trickery, go for it. I actually skipped it on my Gnome Illusionist because it just felt unfair. Besides letting you concentrate on an illusion as a Swift Action, it might also allow you to maintain a second illusion as a move action (even though it is normally a standard). You having fun with a rain of frogs? How about three?


David Haller wrote:
... The one-trick pony is really the province of theorycrafting (or maybe the NPC)!

I think it SHOULD be the province of theory crafting, but I know of several people that play that way. (And get upset if it doesn't work out.)


@Joegoat: What are you planning for your Opposed Schools?

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Negating the big four for illusionists All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.