Hey everyone.

Am I the only one who thinks that the Map from Sandpoint is WAY too small for a 1000 souls community?

1000 souls INCLUDING the Hinterlands/Farmlands might be okay (not sure) but otherwise...

Anyone care to elaborate?

Not a problem that I see.

There are so many variables you can tweak when it comes to number of floors, population density, etc. that it is fruitless to say it should or shouldn't be a different size.

A quick, inaccurate count shows about 100 buildings in Sandpoint, plus the manors to the south which are likely fully staffed with live-in servents, footmen, coach-drivers, stablehands, etc. Many of the families probably have big litters of children. Many families also probably share a residence with another family or their own extended family, since I've never heard of such a thing as a nursing home in Varisia.

The map would have to be much smaller or larger for me to feel that something was off.

I actually am shrinking the map of Sandpoint for my upcoming campaign, as the buildings seem just too big for commoners' houses, and the Cathedral approaches ridiculousness. (This is mostly so I can make the village in paper for some of the big battles, but it seems to make sense as well.)

Also, remember most of the buildings will be 2 or more stories, and average family size would be pretty big, with several generations living together.

I would also count people living in farmlands (that basically is part of Sandpoint) in that count which makes it pretty accurate number for community.

Honestly, I think Sandpoint is ridiculous.

Really, do the math.

Sandpoint has a cathedral and a city wall. It should therefore be a city, not a small town. And 2 inns is too much for a small town like Sandpoint. It might have 1 small inn.

Honestly, I think Sandpoint is ridiculous.

Really, do the math.

Sandpoint has a cathedral and a city wall. It should therefore be a city, not a small town. And 2 inns is too much for a small town like Sandpoint. It might have 1 small inn.

Don't put too much faith in what you read on the web.

I grew up in a small village comparable in size to Sandpoint. There were 4 pubs in the village, three of which also offered accommodation. And while we didn't have a cathedral (or a fortified wall) the church was around 800 years old, and the neighbouring village a few miles away had a castle (and also a Roman villa).

No to my mind it sounds way too big for 1000 people.
In medieval times, pepople were crammed onto small buildings, unless you were a big merchant or nobility.

I grew up in the town of Point Arena (which translates to "Point Bar of Sand" or "Sandpoint," hence the name of the town in Burnt Offerings) which was VERY much the inspiration for Sandpoint.

Point Arena is a city (one of the smallest incorporated cities in California, in fact!) of about 450 people. About 1/3 the population of Sandpoint. And Point Arena has several restaurants and inns/hotels and grocery stores and the like. It has a movie theater. It has three schools. It has a library. It's got churches, one of which has a large steeple. It's got a LOT packed into a relatively small town because it also serves as the "urban center" for a wide swath of rural and wilderness land surrounding it.

When I was designing the map for Sandpoint, I kept the number of buildings in mind along with the town's population of 1200 or so, with the assumption that, on average, a single building in town would house, on average, 5–6 people.

By my count, there's about 220 buildings in Sandpoint. (I'm not sure how someone could count the buildings and come up with only 100.)

Dividing the city's population of 1,240 by 220 gives an average of 5.6 people per building, which is right where I wanted it to be.

Some of those buildings are empty or inhabited by only one person. Some of them have large families of 6 to 10. Some of them are like the cathedral, the manors, the theater, the school the inns, or the barracks that might house 20 people or more.

And remember... Golarion is NOT intended to be "medieval times." It's as much intended to be that as it is "ancient times" (like Rome or Greece or Egypt or Babylon) and also intended to be "modern times" but with magic instead of technology. Saying it's "medieval times" is inaccurate. Using the Domesday Book as a guide is no more or no less appropriate than using modern census numbers, really.

And it IS important to keep in mind that Sandpoint is NOT a village. It's actually one of the top ten largest settlements in Varisia. According to the (arbitrary) population numbers from 3.5 (numbers we kept in Pathfinder), it qualifies as a large town. Compared to the real-world location it was based on, it's about 3 times the size and that real-world location is officially a city.

All of which is to say, I understand that some folks might think it's too large or too small, but it feels right to me.

And with that, I'll close with a challenge.

Mapping cities/towns is one of the biggest challenges we ask writers to do for us. Given how often writers mess up city maps, and how often inaccurate and silly city maps show up in print throughout the history of RPGs... it's long been a pet peeve of mine. People with the ability to create good-looking city maps that actually LOOK like they're city maps of a certain size with certain populations are among my most valued resources.

If anyone reading this feels that they can make more accurate city maps than what we've published in print (and I'm not at all talking the artistic side—I'm just talking the raw design and shape of the city map itself)... I really REALLY REALLY want to hear from you!! Email me at james.jacobs@paizo.com, and if you can, include a sample of a city map you drew.

This could result in me paying you money if your maps are what I'm hoping for!

By my count, there's about 220 buildings in Sandpoint. (I'm not sure how someone could count the buildings and come up with only 100.)

By counting the top 50 before getting bored and estimating that I had counted about half of them. To be fair, I did call my estimate "inaccurate"... which is sort of like saying it has a margin of error of 60% or so.

It's important to remember that living in a modern society with cars and public transport skews our concept of population density. Without modern transport people and their families have to live within walking distance of where they work.

Weird thread! I have been playing D&D since the 70's. Yes. I am an old fart. And I used to draw up all my own towns and cities, some of which were quite large. For a starter town, Sandpoint is just about perfect. It has everything that characters up to around 5th level need. Past that, the party needs a bigger city, and Magnimar fits that need quite well too. So for someone who has invested countless hours in designing a world with many, many towns and cities and locations, I truly appreciate what Paizo has done with Sandpoint, Magnimar and much of Golarion. It is not an easy task, and they have done well with it. It is as rich a world as the Forgotten Realms and surpasses my own Home Brew world of Kyra, which is quite extensive.

Cheers,

Mazra

Would have never guessed that JJ would actually post here.

But reading through the post I must have accidentally stepped on someone's toes BIG TIME.

If I offended you or the Paizo staff in any way I apologize.

Map making was and still is one the biggest challenges for me too, so I know it's no easy task.

But I never really said you were doing a bad job.

It's just that me and my friends looked at the map and the population count and had "the undistinct feeling" that the map was too small for that population size.
IF 1000 people were actually to life IN the town and not in the hinterlands too.

And I wanted to know if we are large alone with this feeling or if others have the same impression.

I don't know, maybe it is because my friends and I all grew up in a 2 Million people city and not in a small town, so our perspective might be blurred by that.

I spent much of my childhood and adolescence in Boothbay Harbor, Maine, a coastal fishing/tourist town, with a population of about 2000. In comparison, Sandpoint feels about perfect to me!

I've flavored the version of Sandpoint in my game with a lot of my childhood memories of that town.

Hey I'm from Maine as well!Hard to find games here I must say! population of my home town is about 1,200.

A tiny fishing island in the swedish archipelago called Käringön had 180 pubs in around 200 houses during the herring rush in the 19th century... Yeah. Population density is screwy.

Would have never guessed that JJ would actually post here.

But reading through the post I must have accidentally stepped on someone's toes BIG TIME.

If I offended you or the Paizo staff in any way I apologize.

Map making was and still is one the biggest challenges for me too, so I know it's no easy task.

But I never really said you were doing a bad job.

It's just that me and my friends looked at the map and the population count and had "the undistinct feeling" that the map was too small for that population size.
IF 1000 people were actually to life IN the town and not in the hinterlands too.

And I wanted to know if we are large alone with this feeling or if others have the same impression.

I don't know, maybe it is because my friends and I all grew up in a 2 Million people city and not in a small town, so our perspective might be blurred by that.

I can't speak for him, but I don't believe he was offended.

James responds to people's posts all the time, not usually in anger. :)

As far as inns are concern, Sandpoint is a major exporter of goods to Magnimar and more. In fact I think the Glassworks is a BIG deal. Also adventures and so called adventures pass through Sandpoint as well.

I have no problem with the number of inns or what not (might even be one or two more).

It's simply that the MAP (and nothing else) seems a tiny bit to small (aka to few houses).
Simple as that.

It's been explained Draco and even without that explanation one as simple as I could easily see that many people in a village that size. I think it gives the town a cosmopolitan feel, which is cool especially since it's almost like a suburb of Magnimar.

It's been explained Draco and even without that explanation one as simple as I could easily see that many people in a village that size. I think it gives the town a cosmopolitan feel, which is cool especially since it's almost like a suburb of Magnimar.

You're falling into the mistake of modern-day thinking about distances.

According to the map, Sandpoint is 54 miles from Magnimar. That's considerably more than a day of travel by foot or horse-drawn cart, and at best half a day in the fastest coach (changing horses). That's not exactly a suburb.

Just out of curiosity, how long by boat?

Just out of curiosity, how long by boat?

That rather depends on the wind, of course. But you'd be hard put to do it in under four hours in any sail-powered vessel (that's about what the East India Company's tea clippers - the sort of ships you see in "Pirates of the Caribbean" - could manage (and that's running before the wind, and trade winds at that). More typically, a coastal sailing boat would probably take most of a day to sail between two ports 50 miles apart, and could well take longer if the wind was from the wrong quarter.

Just out of curiosity, how long by boat?

Depends on the wind... and the boat in question according to PFRPG Core Rulebook most ships could make the journey in a day, keelboats and rowboats in 4-6 days, and barges in about 11 days. This is assuming the 54 miles is close to the same distance by sea as by land. And lack of extraneous transport methods like wizards casting wind spells.

It is also less than a day's journey by airship if anyone wanted to know.

I don't recall if this was in the module, or if I added it, but in my campaign there was a Wayfarer's Stop almost at the midway point between Magnimar and Sandpoint. It had a tavern and rooms, plus a stable to accommodate a change of horses for the coaches that travelled the Lost Coast Road. I played it that it was a two day trip by foot, with an overnight in the inn that charged way too much for their crappy rooms, watered down wine, and moldy bread.

This is all horribly ironic.

Paizo tried to step away from non-literal maps of settlements because they recognised how absurd it becomes trying to put every building in the picture.

This caused lots of moans and groans so they went back to pseudo-accurate maps.

Now, this is causing moans and groans.

I, for one, preferred the evocative Council of Thieves map.

I don't recall if this was in the module, or if I added it, but in my campaign there was a Wayfarer's Stop almost at the midway point between Magnimar and Sandpoint. It had a tavern and rooms, plus a stable to accommodate a change of horses for the coaches that travelled the Lost Coast Road. I played it that it was a two day trip by foot, with an overnight in the inn that charged way too much for their crappy rooms, watered down wine, and moldy bread.

I think it's in the module, because I remember the same thing, so it's been in my campaign, too. Though both parties have a weird tendency to camp across the path from it. They're going to have to post a "no camping within 1000' sign".

Hah! If it was my group that would be an invitation for slaughter, the overpriced crappy inn would anger them, then a no camping within' 1000' feet? Yeah, I think there wouldn't be any survivors occupying that now burnt structure in the morning, just charred hacked bodies :)

I usually add some way station every 20-30 miles along routes between major settlements. That is about a day's journey on foot, so people will want a place to stay.

Now that doesn't mean there is an inn every 20 miles. There may be a good campground with running water and natural shelter as well. These places are relatively clear of monsters, though brigands can be a problem. But wandering monsters happen on occasion.

Along major routes I would expect the occasional farmer's cart, merchant's wagon, and even the king's guards (or whatever passes as the law). Brigands and critters such as goblins probably watch the route for easy prey and let armed adventurers pass unmolested. It is easier to hijack a farmer than some guy in plate armor, his fireball throwing sidekick, and the religious zealot calling down the wrath of his god.

I thew this side note in due to distances and the no camping comments. :)

Hah! If it was my group that would be an invitation for slaughter, the overpriced crappy inn would anger them, then a no camping within' 1000' feet? Yeah, I think there wouldn't be any survivors occupying that now burnt structure in the morning, just charred hacked bodies :)

That is the kind of play I find really boring, and probably serves as a perfect example of why I don't GM for evil PCs.

Each to their own, I suppose.

I don't recall if this was in the module, or if I added it, but in my campaign there was a Wayfarer's Stop almost at the midway point between Magnimar and Sandpoint. It had a tavern and rooms, plus a stable to accommodate a change of horses for the coaches that travelled the Lost Coast Road. I played it that it was a two day trip by foot, with an overnight in the inn that charged way too much for their crappy rooms, watered down wine, and moldy bread.

I recall that there's a toss-away line in the module somewhere about there being numerous tiny settlements between Sandpoint and Magnimar, and those that are approximately one day's travel by a particular means tend to have an inn, but they aren't detailed in any way.

My party was regularly traveling between them on horseback. While it's possible to push a horse to go the whole way in a day, I developed the village of Garrett's Landing as a place to spend the night between the two. If the PCs are in a hurry, they could conceivably switch their horses for fresh ones in the village and make the trip in one day.

Mazra wrote:

I don't recall if this was in the module, or if I added it, but in my campaign there was a Wayfarer's Stop almost at the midway point between Magnimar and Sandpoint. It had a tavern and rooms, plus a stable to accommodate a change of horses for the coaches that travelled the Lost Coast Road. I played it that it was a two day trip by foot, with an overnight in the inn that charged way too much for their crappy rooms, watered down wine, and moldy bread.

I recall that there's a toss-away line in the module somewhere about there being numerous tiny settlements between Sandpoint and Magnimar, and those that are approximately one day's travel by a particular means tend to have an inn, but they aren't detailed in any way.

My party was regularly traveling between them on horseback. While it's possible to push a horse to go the whole way in a day, I developed the village of Garrett's Landing as a place to spend the night between the two. If the PCs are in a hurry, they could conceivably switch their horses for fresh ones in the village and make the trip in one day.

Start of the Sandpoint article, page 59

Traditional Varisian campsites can be found in nearly every gulch and
hollow along the cliff -lined reaches, and lonely houses sit upon bluff s now and then—domiciles for eccentrics or the rich seeking a bit of peace far from the bustle of Magnimar’s streets. Roadside inns grace the Lost Coast road every 24 miles or so, placed by virtue of the distance most travelers can walk given a day’s travel. Low stone shrines to Desna, goddess of wanderers and patron of the Varisians, give further opportunities for shelter should one of the all-too-common rainstorms catch the traveler unaware.

Haladir wrote:

Mazra wrote:

I don't recall if this was in the module, or if I added it, but in my campaign there was a Wayfarer's Stop almost at the midway point between Magnimar and Sandpoint. It had a tavern and rooms, plus a stable to accommodate a change of horses for the coaches that travelled the Lost Coast Road. I played it that it was a two day trip by foot, with an overnight in the inn that charged way too much for their crappy rooms, watered down wine, and moldy bread.

I recall that there's a toss-away line in the module somewhere about there being numerous tiny settlements between Sandpoint and Magnimar, and those that are approximately one day's travel by a particular means tend to have an inn, but they aren't detailed in any way.

My party was regularly traveling between them on horseback. While it's possible to push a horse to go the whole way in a day, I developed the village of Garrett's Landing as a place to spend the night between the two. If the PCs are in a hurry, they could conceivably switch their horses for fresh ones in the village and make the trip in one day.

Start of the Sandpoint article, page 59

Burnt Offerings wrote:

Traditional Varisian campsites can be found in nearly every gulch and
hollow along the cliff -lined reaches, and lonely houses sit upon bluff s now and then—domiciles for eccentrics or the rich seeking a bit of peace far from the bustle of Magnimar’s streets. Roadside inns grace the Lost Coast road every 24 miles or so, placed by virtue of the distance most travelers can walk given a day’s travel. Low stone shrines to Desna, goddess of wanderers and patron of the Varisians, give further opportunities for shelter should one of the all-too-common rainstorms catch the traveler unaware.

And there you go!

In my RotR game, the party cleansed Foxglove Manor, and in their copious free time, turned it into an inn.

First, it takes 16 hours to walk 50 miles. Not days. That's not even riding which means Magnimar isn't really all that far away. Now, knowing that and looking at the map of Varisia, it wouldn't take long at all to go, as it were, "There And Back Again".

Second, 1000 people may also count those that are passing through town and staying a few days or weeks or whatever. I kind of imagine Sandpoint as a waypoint for adventurers, I mean, check out some of those NPCs! It's like a relaxing stop over.

Just a few thoughts.

First, it takes 16 hours to walk 50 miles. Not days. That's not even riding which means Magnimar isn't really all that far away. Now, knowing that and looking at the map of Varisia, it wouldn't take long at all to go, as it were, "There And Back Again".

Second, 1000 people may also count those that are passing through town and staying a few days or weeks or whatever. I kind of imagine Sandpoint as a waypoint for adventurers, I mean, check out some of those NPCs! It's like a relaxing stop over.

Just a few thoughts.

Sixteen straight hours of walking isn't something that a lot of people are keen to do.

And in any event, the time it takes to travel any distance in game is set out in the Core Rulebook. They may or may not match any one particular impression of reality, but they're what we use in game to determine things like how long it takes to get from, say, Sandpoint to Magnimar.

Good call sir. I'm sure that the sources I used didn't take into count the wearing of armor, weapons and full kit.

Just to back up James' point I too come from a small town of just over 2000 inhabitants, there were 9 pubs, several restaurants and cafes, 2 hotels, an 18 hole golf course, 2 schools, a theatre and a cinema.

Sandpoint seems reasonable to me.

Doesn't a location's in game population count only include adults? I remember reading somewhere that you add another 50% to that number to account for children (basically anyone who hasn't earned a class level yet).

Doesn't a location's in game population count only include adults? I remember reading somewhere that you add another 50% to that number to account for children (basically anyone who hasn't earned a class level yet).

I assume Golarion city populations include ALL the denizens of the city; elderly, adult, children, and infants. These numbers do not include travelers or visitors to the city.

I don't have access to this map, what is the rough surface area covered by the city?

The other thing to remember is that this is not a medieval town. Golarion has a moderately high magic level, making towns and cities much closer to renaissance levels than medieval.

Also, it's just a game. Sometimes you need a few extra inns or cathedrals to make things interesting. 1000 people is still a very, very small town.

Honestly, I think Sandpoint is ridiculous.

Really, do the math.

Sandpoint has a cathedral and a city wall. It should therefore be a city, not a small town. And 2 inns is too much for a small town like Sandpoint. It might have 1 small inn.

No offense (really, no offense), but what is ridiculous is expecting real-world medieval demographics to apply in a place with cure disease, create food and water, purify food and drink, sending, or about a thousand other game-changers with implications we can hardly imagine, let alone quantify.

That way madness lies. :P

I grew up in an area of Canada (Prince Edward Island) where there are dozens of small communities hovering around 1,000 to 4,000 people. Most of these towns have large churches and between one to three schools as well as 2 to 5 restaurants. Some have theaters, albeit small stage facilities. Actual movie theaters were limited to the province's only 2 cities. As for the number of houses and buildings, the Sandpoint map does seem about right compared to the communities I grew up near.

As for the aforementioned 2 cities, I grew up in the largest - the province's capital - which has a grand total population of about 45,000. Still not very large compared to a normal city. However, due to the city's unique position as a major maritime trade hub and tourist destination (much like Sandpoint), the downtown core more closely resembles that of a much larger city - literally dozens of restaurants, 5 large hotels, and an actual cathedral.

I've lived in several big cities (with populations ranging from 200,000 to 2,000,000) and visited even more. I will second the notion that people born and raised in big cities tend to have a "skewed" view on how small towns should look and feel.

Hey everyone.

Am I the only one who thinks that the Map from Sandpoint is WAY too small for a 1000 souls community?

1000 souls INCLUDING the Hinterlands/Farmlands might be okay (not sure) but otherwise...

Anyone care to elaborate?

dont forget the people sometimes comites mistakes, maybe theyre count twice some of them

I am 3 sessions into my first play thru of RoTRL and Sandpoint plays like a large town/small city for me...and I LOVE IT!

First, it takes 16 hours to walk 50 miles. Not days. That's not even riding which means Magnimar isn't really all that far away. Now, knowing that and looking at the map of Varisia, it wouldn't take long at all to go, as it were, "There And Back Again".

Just a few thoughts.

Lol As someone who hikes nearly every week-end, and backpacks 3-5 weeks a year, this made me laugh out loud. Even on a dirt road I wouldn't want to try covering 50 miles in one go. That's two marathons!

I'm no Pathfinder Hero of course, but yea, I think its safe to say your average commoner/merchant will be blown out after 25 miles, much less 50.

I grew up in an area of Canada (Prince Edward Island) where there are dozens of small communities hovering around 1,000 to 4,000 people. Most of these towns have large churches and between one to three schools as well as 2 to 5 restaurants. Some have theaters, albeit small stage facilities. Actual movie theaters were limited to the province's only 2 cities. As for the number of houses and buildings, the Sandpoint map does seem about right compared to the communities I grew up near.

As for the aforementioned 2 cities, I grew up in the largest - the province's capital - which has a grand total population of about 45,000. Still not very large compared to a normal city. However, due to the city's unique position as a major maritime trade hub and tourist destination (much like Sandpoint), the downtown core more closely resembles that of a much larger city - literally dozens of restaurants, 5 large hotels, and an actual cathedral.

I've lived in several big cities (with populations ranging from 200,000 to 2,000,000) and visited even more. I will second the notion that people born and raised in big cities tend to have a "skewed" view on how small towns should look and feel.

There's tourism in Golarion now?

There has been tourism in the real world at least since ancient greece, I am pretty sure there is tourism in Golarion...

Well, tourism in the sense of roving adventurers - an implication I forgot to include in my previous post. It has been mentioned that Sandpoint is a travel hub which is what I meant.

Though maybe Golarion does have tourism. Bored and rich nobles needs to spend their money on something. :)

Burnt Offering features a minor noble from Magnimar who visits Sandpoint for the hunting...

That's tourism.