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Constrict, TW Rend, and (su) abilities


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Four separate questions that came up in a recent session. Asking them all in one thread instead of several separate ones.

1. When does constrict damage take place? Is it the round of the successful grab check, or is constrict damage applied on the first round of maintaining the grapple, after the creature has had a chance to break free?

1a. If a creature has multiple, say, tentacles, each of which have grab and constrict (obviously), can this creature grapple the same target with multiple tentacles and apply constrict damage multiple times in a round to a single target?

2. When you modify a creature by adding HD to it, and it increases in size category, all it's damage dice for natural attacks presumably increase (d4 to d6, etc). Would the constrict damage dice increase as well?

3. If I have Two-Weapon Rend, and I'm attacking something with DR (Cold Iron, for example), but only one of my weapons actually possesses the ability to overcome DR, is the damage done by TWR reduced by the DR... or no? Say, for example, I'm wielding a +2 Longsword and a +3 Short Sword. I hit with the longsword and barely deal damage (say 12 points when the DR is 10/cold iron), and I hit with the short sword. Is the damage from rend reduced?

3a. If I hit with the longsword but don't overcome DR, I can still rend, right? The condition is hitting the creature, not damaging them, correct?

3b. Saw this in an optimization guide. Can you rend more than one creature a round? Say I attack one creature with both weapons, hit twice, and then use my second attacks with both weapons to attack a second creature and hit it both times. Do I rend both?

4. Finally, and I've asked this before but keep forgetting where to look to find the answer, what action is required to use supernatural abilities? I don't even remember the ability, now, but it came up. Most of them specify as a free action or a standard action, etc, but what's the action if that's not listed (like in my case, whatever it was).

4b. Also, where does it talk about the caster level / spell level of spell-like abilities, like those associated with the wizard schools?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Shameless bump.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For the supernatural abilities, they default to be Standard Actions.

From here:

Quote:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

1) constrict:
yes the first round as soons as the grab succeed.
1) a) yes
beware, you may fastly kill a PC with constrict. My players hate me when i have a monster with constrict.
the sequence attack-grab-constrict-release is fine too

2) damage of constrict and size:
PRD constrict: "The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack"
so yes, it increases with size

3) two-weapon rend: nothing is written but it is not a damage linked to a weapon. It's an additional damage "by latching onto the opponent's body and tearing flesh."
So no type but it is reduced by DR.

3) a) yes the condition is just to hit with the primary hand and the off-hand hand: in your ex, you must hit with the shortsword +3 AND the longsword +2

3) b) No, you can just rend once for a round
PRD TW rend: "...You can only deal this additional damage once each round."
So if you use it, you must wait the begining of your next turn to activate this power again.

4) see answer of Cheapy above

4)b) see FAQ
FAQ CRB


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Quote:
For the supernatural abilities, they default to be Standard Actions.

Ah! I've always just looked at the appendix in the back for these things. I'll try to remember this time.

Quote:

1) constrict:

yes the first round as soons as the grab succeed.
1) a) yes
beware, you may fastly kill a PC with constrict. My players hate me when i have a monster with constrict.
the sequence attack-grab-constrict-release is fine too

2) damage of constrict and size:
PRD constrict: "The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack"
so yes, it increases with size

That's the way I've been handling it. Just wanted clarification.

Quote:

3) two-weapon rend: nothing is written but it is not a damage linked to a weapon. It's an additional damage "by latching onto the opponent's body and tearing flesh."

So no type but it is reduced by DR.

3) a) yes the condition is just to hit with the primary hand and the off-hand hand: in your ex, you must hit with the shortsword +3 AND the longsword +2

So 2WR damage will always be prevented by DR, regardless of any other factors involved.

Quote:

3) b) No, you can just rend once for a round

PRD TW rend: "...You can only deal this additional damage once each round."
So if you use it, you must wait the begining of your next turn to activate this power again.

I've seen people add "per creature" to the end of that statement. Once each round per creature. Or a creature can only be affected by an opponent's TWR once per round. I've never seen it used the way I was describing, but I did see it in a build and I've been curious.

Thanks for getting back to me.


Note that you can't use a Tentacle to Attack -> Grab -> Contrict -> Attack -> Grab -> Constrict without releasing the target in the middle. Grab only gives you a grapple check to START a grapple, thus if you hit a creature that is already grapple with an attack with the Grab(ex) ability, nothing extra happens.

Not a huge deal, just wanted to make that clear.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rathyr wrote:

Note that you can't use a Tentacle to Attack -> Grab -> Contrict -> Attack -> Grab -> Constrict without releasing the target in the middle. Grab only gives you a grapple check to START a grapple, thus if you hit a creature that is already grapple with an attack with the Grab(ex) ability, nothing extra happens.

Not a huge deal, just wanted to make that clear.

I don't want "start a new war" with you :-)

...but i think you're wrong.
Each grab/grapple is valid for a limb, and if the monster want to grapple an ennemy with more than 1 limb, it can do that.


I'm not sure I understand.

You think you can initiate a NEW grapple sequence on a creature that is already grappled? What would that even accomplish? Note that even MULTIPLE creatures cannot inflict more than one grappled condition on a single target, instead all that happens is a +2 to the check. There are absolutely no rules pertaining to this event, and I can't imagine a situation where this would be to the creatures advantage.

In short, I would advise making up new rules that don't even change the state of the game (as both creatures have the grappled condition (-2 to attacks, -4 Dex), you aren't even more accurate).


@Martryn:

I'm not sure if your conclusion of "So 2WR damage will always be prevented by DR, regardless of any other factors involved" is accurate.

My belief is that the extra 2WR damage is precision damage, like sneak attack, and is ADDED to one of your successful attacks {like the main hand, or the hand that actually CAN injure the creature} and not a separate attack on its own, subject to DR.

Assuming my interpretation is correct, not only is 2WR not always negated, but actually can aid in damaging a creature that otherwise may not have been damaged at all.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't change the rule anyway!!! ;-)
That's one limb grapple or 2 or 3 doesn't change anything for the victim grappled: it just needs one check against the CMD of the grappler to escape.

And i don't see where you've find the "initiate a grapple sequence" and the condition you attach with.
You can grab as you want. If you succeed to grab, you gain the condition "grappled", so -2 to attack & -4 Dex &etc...
If the monster want to attack the same target that it has just grab, where is the problem? It attacks, grab and do constrict damage. The new grab don't "inflict more than one grappled condition" because the target has already this condition.
It just allow the monster to pass its constrict.

And if i follow "your new rules", it means that if someone is grappled, it cannot be grappled by someone else...
I don't know from each of us create new rules, but it's not me...


... What? Your paragraph doesn't read very well...

Grab can only be used to start a grapple.

"If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity."

This is why I say you have to release the target in order to use grab on the next attack. You can't "start a grapple" AGAIN if the creature is already grappled. It's basic reading comprehension. Grab doesn't give you a universal grapple check, only a check to START.

Again, if you want to get constrict on every attack, you just have to release the target before each attack. It's not rocket science. It's not even a penalty. It is following the rules though.

Also, you can't grapple a creature grappled by someone else. All you do is add a +2 to each creature assisting... It's not "my new rules", its the basic grapple rules RAW =/

Multiple Creatures

Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature's combat maneuver check.


Rathyr wrote:

... What? Your paragraph doesn't read very well...

english is not Defraeter's primary language. Knowing that it usually isn't that difficult to understand what he is trying to say.


Ah.

I fear that precise language that I am referring to in the rules might be lost in translation. Hopefully I was clear enough.

The Exchange

2 things i'm wondering

bestiary wrote:

Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack.

if you're already grappling, and have 6 tentacles with which to make grapple checks with, can you attempt to deal damage with each tentacle, and should any of those grapple checks deal damage, then deal additional constrict damage? Or since grappling is a standard action, they can only deal damage once, and constrict once? so mechanically it is better to release, and attack again, rather than go with what nature would presume to be the best course of action: continue to constrict your prey and crush it to death?

if a snake constricts you,
round 1, it hits. deals damage. constricts on a successful grapple.
round 2> it tries to deal damage in a grapple. succeeds. it then deals additional constrict damage as well again, right?


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Seraphimpunk wrote:

2 things i'm wondering

bestiary wrote:

Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack.

if you're already grappling, and have 6 tentacles with which to make grapple checks with, can you attempt to deal damage with each tentacle, and should any of those grapple checks deal damage, then deal additional constrict damage? Or since grappling is a standard action, they can only deal damage once, and constrict once? so mechanically it is better to release, and attack again, rather than go with what nature would presume to be the best course of action: continue to constrict your prey and crush it to death?

if a snake constricts you,
round 1, it hits. deals damage. constricts on a successful grapple.
round 2> it tries to deal damage in a grapple. succeeds. it then deals additional constrict damage as well again, right?

Constrict & grab: "Everybody" agrees on the sequence attack-grab-constrict-release in free for the first round.

You can grapple as many ennemy that you've limb with grab (but you've the -2 to attack because of grappled condition).
If you grab/grapple, you've to maintain the second round by a standard action, so you can just maintain 1 grapple.

the snake constrict: you deal damage of constrict as soon as you succeed a grapple check, so you're right.


Seraphimpunk wrote:


if you're already grappling, and have 6 tentacles with which to make grapple checks with, can you attempt to deal damage with each tentacle, and should any of those grapple checks deal damage, then deal additional constrict damage? Or since grappling is a standard action, they can only deal damage once, and constrict once? so mechanically it is better to release, and attack again, rather than go with what nature would presume to be the best course of action: continue to constrict your prey and crush it to death?

if a snake constricts you,
round 1, it hits. deals damage. constricts on a successful grapple.
round 2> it tries to deal damage in a grapple. succeeds. it then deals additional constrict damage as well again, right?

1.) Oddly enough, yes, this seems to be the case. Creatures with multiple grab limbs and constrict don't get a lot of benefits for staying in a grapple. Attack -> Grab -> Constrict -> Release nets higher damage than holding on, assuming the creature can make a full attack.

2.) Yes. Anytime you succeed on a grapple check, you constrict, even if you are using a non-damage option.

Grand Lodge

I've always played it as when the first grab grapple check suceeds, the full attack action ends, since it's not something you are allowed to do when you are controlling a grapple.

You can still take a free action to end the grapple, but that wouldn't resume the full attack.

Also, grab constrict release seems like a fairly unintuative tactic, so I'd probably not have low int monsters do it.

Once you're in the grapple and controling it, how are you able to grapple other creatures? Attacking outside the grapple isn't an option when you're controlling the grapple. I think pathfinder still has the rule to not be considered grappling by taking a big penalty to the check, but I'm not sure of that.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Victor Zajic wrote:

I've always played it as when the first grab grapple check suceeds, the full attack action ends, since it's not something you are allowed to do when you are controlling a grapple.

You can still take a free action to end the grapple, but that wouldn't resume the full attack.

Also, grab constrict release seems like a fairly unintuative tactic, so I'd probably not have low int monsters do it.

Once you're in the grapple and controling it, how are you able to grapple other creatures? Attacking outside the grapple isn't an option when you're controlling the grapple. I think pathfinder still has the rule to not be considered grappling by taking a big penalty to the check, but I'm not sure of that.

All that is the combat section, as the 5ft-step, combat maneuver, flanking, etc... has nothing to do with intelligence. Every monster, even mindless, can do an aid another or an attack-grab-constrict-release sequence (it has been confirmed by devs).

It's not tactics.

Grapple prevent to maintain more than one grapple because you need a standard action to maintain.
But start a grapple condition (in the sequence att-grab-constrict) doesn't prevent you to make another attack if you respect the grappled condition (-2 attack, etc...).
And if you release the victim, you've not the grappled condition, so no problem to go on.
Start a grapple and maintain a grapple are two different things.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

When i refer to "combat section", it is the chapter Combat in PRD that everyone, even mindless, use to be the more efficient.
Combat chapter of PRD
A monster will use all its powers to "kill as fast as possible": so use full attack action as often that possible, use flank if possible, use 5ft-step, etc... use sequence attack-grab-release because it allows to make full attack and use its constrict power each time...

The Exchange

who are we to question the tactics of a many tentacled being from the Void.
if it is more successful at killing adventurers by attacks > grab > constrict > release with each of its attacks, then it will evolve to do that in the game.

If developers want to mimic how we players might think nature would evolve: grabbing and holding on, then it should constrict as many times per round as it would normally.

=D


Victor Zajic wrote:

I've always played it as when the first grab grapple check suceeds, the full attack action ends, since it's not something you are allowed to do when you are controlling a grapple.

Sure you could, if you someone managed to snag a extra standard action somewhere (Standard Action -> Maintain Grapple, Full Attack (with the grappled penalty).

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