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Disney Buys Star Wars


Movies

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Shadow Lodge

Irontruth wrote:
Asphere wrote:

This pretty much sums up my feelings about the Phantom Menace.

Link

That was awesome. I immediately watched the whole thing and am 1/2 way through attack of the clones now. It could have left out the gross misogyny, but otherwise was awesome.

Yeah his reviews are great. You can tell he loves movies. From what I gather, his character (Plinket) is essentially a serial killer who reviews movies. It is pretty weird.

"Anybody want a pizza roll?"

Silver Crusade

Asphere wrote:

I think saying that Qui-Gon was the main character is a leap. If that was the intention it wasn't clearly defined in the movie at all.

Obi-Wan should have been the main character. He should have been the one to find Anakin. He should have been the one that went against the wishes of the council and Qui-Gon in order to train him. We should have been able to see and relate to the relationship between Obi-Wan and his his master so that when Qui-Gon dies it had a bigger impact on us.

Watch the review I linked above. It lays it out fairly well.

I did.

I don't agree with it.

Shadow Lodge

GM Elton wrote:
Asphere wrote:

I think saying that Qui-Gon was the main character is a leap. If that was the intention it wasn't clearly defined in the movie at all.

Obi-Wan should have been the main character. He should have been the one to find Anakin. He should have been the one that went against the wishes of the council and Qui-Gon in order to train him. We should have been able to see and relate to the relationship between Obi-Wan and his his master so that when Qui-Gon dies it had a bigger impact on us.

Watch the review I linked above. It lays it out fairly well.

I did.

I don't agree with it.

I think the issue though is that so many of us do agree with it. We shouldn't have to dig deep to figure out who the protagonist is. It should be obvious. In episode IV it was clear that Luke Skywalker was the protagonist. Like it said in the review - we could really relate to him. He had hopes and dreams and obstacles in the way. We felt bad for him when he lost his aunt and uncle. We watched his friendship grow with Han Solo which made it seem more genuine. I felt none of this for Qui-Gon. He had very minimal character development. When he died I didn't really care because he was a boring bland character to begin with. I couldn't relate to him at all.

Silver Crusade

Asphere wrote:
GM Elton wrote:
Asphere wrote:

I think saying that Qui-Gon was the main character is a leap. If that was the intention it wasn't clearly defined in the movie at all.

Obi-Wan should have been the main character. He should have been the one to find Anakin. He should have been the one that went against the wishes of the council and Qui-Gon in order to train him. We should have been able to see and relate to the relationship between Obi-Wan and his his master so that when Qui-Gon dies it had a bigger impact on us.

Watch the review I linked above. It lays it out fairly well.

I did.

I don't agree with it.

I think the issue though is that so many of us do agree with it. We shouldn't have to dig deep to figure out who the protagonist is. It should be obvious. In episode IV it was clear that Luke Skywalker was the protagonist. Like it said in the review - we could really relate to him. He had hopes and dreams and obstacles in the way. We felt bad for him when he lost his aunt and uncle. We watched his friendship grow with Han Solo which made it seem more genuine. I felt none of this for Qui-Gon. He had very minimal character development. When he died I didn't really care because he was a boring bland character to begin with. I couldn't relate to him at all.

I think the protagonist wasn't clear in the movie -- I agree with you.

The Protagonist considers the problem and persues the Solution. Qui-Gon Jinn, Queen Amidala, and Anakin Skywalker all did this. Qui-Gon did this in the beginning of the movie. Queen Amidala did this at the end of the movie. Anakin Skywalker did this in the middle of the movie.

Movie Start: Qui-Gon considered the problem of the Trade Federation, and per sues the Solution -- warning the Naboo. The Jedi escape and take the Queen to Tattooine. In the middle of the Movie: They meet Anakin Skywalker with a new problem -- the Hyperdrive was damaged. The solution was to gamble on a pod race. Qui-Gon gambles the ship and Anakin persues the solution to it's conclusion. Finally, with a stop over on Coruscant Amidala chooses to go back to free her people, and sacrifices the Jedi in order to achieve her goals.

The Protagonist role is split among three people.

in RTS, the protagonist -- or ANTI-HERO -- was Darth Sidious. He had a goal, he pursued it, he achieved it.

The Main Character is a whole different kettle of fish. Through the main character, it's the "I" perspective, and we experience the story as that main character. I identify Qui-Gonn as the main character because he represents the Real Jedi. He's the one we go through the story with. When he acted, everyone else reacted to his choices either directly or indirectly. Qui-Gonn followed the will of the Force.

In RTJ, the Main Character wasn't Luke, it was Darth Vader. Another clear example of how the main character doesn't have to be the protagonist. There was a deleted scene that would have reminded us the argument between Luke and Vader perfectly. Vader wanted to be with his son, because he reminded him of Padme Amidala. Luke wanted to redeem his father.

The Impact Character presents a different point of view, and forces the Main Character to face his personal problems. In TPM, the Impact Character was Obi-wan Kenobi. He represents the Ideal Jedi at the time, follow the Council. Qui-Gonn Jinn's personal problem was the Council's oversight of Jedi Affairs. Obi-Wan forced Qui-Gonn to see the Council's Oversight by bringing it up "that the boy's dangerous." However, Qui-Gonn remains steadfast to what he thought was right and changed Obi-Wan Kenobi.

In RTJ, the Impact Character wasn't Vader, it was Luke. Luke wanted to redeem his father, and so they both manipulated each other. "Give yourself to the Dark Side." "I can feel the Good in you." "So, you have a twin sister!" For a short time, Vader turned Luke to the Dark Side until Luke realized what had happened and turned back. When Sidious attacked him with Force Lighting (as a Sith Sorcerer would), the attack was enough to force Vader over the edge.

The Main Character/Impact character throughline was written well. It's the emotional heart the story. In RTJ, I already described the emotional heart.

In TPM and RTJ, the Main Characters had a bad end. The goals were achieved: in TPM it was preserving the freedom of the Naboo. In RTJ, it was restoring Freedom to the Galaxy. In TMP, the ending was Success/Bad -- the Naboo was free but the troubling thing was that the menace was still out there. RTJ -- despite the Tragic Ending of Darth Vader, was Success/Succcess. The Galaxy was free and Vader was redeemed as a Force Ghost.

In RTS -- the ending was Success/Bad because Sidious had conquered the Galaxy at the cost of Padme's life, the Jedi Order's existence, and Anakin's soul.

The story telling is brilliant if you look at it from the four throughlines. However, the journey getting there was Artificial because George had started in the middle and backtracked. What you are all hung up on are the little details in the story that would have seemed to make it natural was not in the movie. Or there was just too much, there wasn't a happy medium that helped it flow.

Shadow Lodge

GM Elton wrote:

I think the protagonist wasn't clear in the movie -- I agree with you.

The Protagonist considers the problem and persues the Solution. Qui-Gon Jinn, Queen Amidala, and Anakin Skywalker all did this. Qui-Gon did this in the beginning of the movie. Queen Amidala did this at the end of the movie. Anakin Skywalker did this in the middle of the movie.

Movie Start: Qui-Gon considered the problem of the Trade Federation, and per sues the Solution -- warning the Naboo. The Jedi escape and take the Queen to Tattooine. In the middle of the Movie: They meet Anakin Skywalker with a new problem -- the Hyperdrive was damaged. The solution was to gamble on a pod race....

Well if it wasn't clear then it is pretty much the same as saying that there isn't one.

A protagonist isn't just someone who considers a problem and pursues the solution. If that were true then Palpatine was a protagonist rather than the antagonist. A very important characteristic of a protagonist is the audience is supposed to identify with them. Like we did with Luke in episode IV.

Lantern Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GM Elton wrote:

A new thought:

If the story got you to realize that Sidious sacrificed others to attain his goal, but Qui-Gon sacrificed his life to defend the people he loved from a threat; it would have been a better ending.

The real problem was as epic a fight that it was, it ultimately meant nothing as the whole issue was decided by wild shots from a kid in a hijacked starfigher.

In fact practically none of the great duels meant anything as far as advancing the main storyline with one exception.... the fight between Darth Vader and the elder Ben Kenobi. the others were essentially side shows in which the major battles had already been won or lost elsewhere.

Silver Crusade

Asphere wrote:
GM Elton wrote:

I think the protagonist wasn't clear in the movie -- I agree with you.

The Protagonist considers the problem and persues the Solution. Qui-Gon Jinn, Queen Amidala, and Anakin Skywalker all did this. Qui-Gon did this in the beginning of the movie. Queen Amidala did this at the end of the movie. Anakin Skywalker did this in the middle of the movie.

Movie Start: Qui-Gon considered the problem of the Trade Federation, and per sues the Solution -- warning the Naboo. The Jedi escape and take the Queen to Tattooine. In the middle of the Movie: They meet Anakin Skywalker with a new problem -- the Hyperdrive was damaged. The solution was to gamble on a pod race....

Well if it wasn't clear then it is pretty much the same as saying that there isn't one.

A protagonist isn't just someone who considers a problem and pursues the solution. If that were true then Palpatine was a protagonist rather than the antagonist. A very important characteristic of a protagonist is the audience is supposed to identify with them. Like we did with Luke in episode IV.

Woa . . . I had something significant to say on story theory, and it went in one eye and out the other. I'm unimpressed, Asphere. I'm through with this, since you are disregarding about 80% of what I just said.

However, I still find the movie personally satisfactory for me. it's going to take a remake for you to prove otherwise.

Shadow Lodge

GM Elton wrote:

Woa . . . I had something significant to say on story theory, and it went in one eye and out the other. I'm unimpressed, Asphere. I'm through with this, since you are disregarding about 80% of what I just said.

However, I still find the movie personally satisfactory for me. it's going to take a remake for you to prove otherwise.

Did you just declare your own post significant? The arrogance is strong with this one...

Anyway...I read your significant post and imho only the first part addressed our conversation. The following parts merely dissected the other films for the sake of doing so. So I didn't comment on that part. It was only tangentially related to our discourse.

What we were discussing was the Phantom Menace. Your position is that Qui-Gon was the main character and a protagonist. You agreed with me that this identification was made difficult because it was muddled in the film. My point was that if it is difficult to identify the character you are supposed to relate to than it is hard to become emotionally invested in the drama. If the audience has difficulty becoming invested in the drama - the movie has largely failed.

Disclaimer: Like the reviewer in the link above said this isn't always true but it typically works well in the fantasy/sci-fi genres and it is the formula Lucas tends to follow - so unless you are Wes Anderson you should stick to the formula.


Asphere wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Asphere wrote:

This pretty much sums up my feelings about the Phantom Menace.

Link

That was awesome. I immediately watched the whole thing and am 1/2 way through attack of the clones now. It could have left out the gross misogyny, but otherwise was awesome.

Yeah his reviews are great. You can tell he loves movies. From what I gather, his character (Plinket) is essentially a serial killer who reviews movies. It is pretty weird.

"Anybody want a pizza roll?"

It was hilarious. Watching the review of III is closest I've come to actually watching the movie, I just refuse out of general principle, but the tone and depiction of the reviewers character is much better. I don't mind the serial killer aspect, it works particularly well reviewing these movies because it's like "hey, this serial killer understands more about human emotion and creating an emotional connection than Lucas!"


Also, Sidious is the worst sith ever.

He created an army to fight another army he created. Why didn't he just put both armies together and rule with an iron fist? No one else had an army to stop him, because they had to rely on the army he created.

Darth Vader in the original two movies is the best sith ever.

There is no protagonist in epsiode I. There just isn't. You can twist and convolute all you want, but there still isn't a protagonist. Jar Jar is superfluous and unnecessary.

Nothing made any sense ever.

Shadow Lodge

GM Elton wrote:
Woa . . . I had something significant to say on story theory, and it went in one eye and out the other. I'm unimpressed, Asphere. I'm through with this, since you are disregarding about 80% of what I just said.

The problem with your argument is you're going on and on and on about movie and story theory and stuff and really... most of us don't care about that, or even recognize it, or understand it. And it doesn't impact whether or not we like or dislike the movie.


GM Elton wrote:
Asphere wrote:
GM Elton wrote:
Asphere wrote:

I think saying that Qui-Gon was the main character is a leap. If that was the intention it wasn't clearly defined in the movie at all.

Obi-Wan should have been the main character. He should have been the one to find Anakin. He should have been the one that went against the wishes of the council and Qui-Gon in order to train him. We should have been able to see and relate to the relationship between Obi-Wan and his his master so that when Qui-Gon dies it had a bigger impact on us.

Watch the review I linked above. It lays it out fairly well.

I did.

I don't agree with it.

I think the issue though is that so many of us do agree with it. We shouldn't have to dig deep to figure out who the protagonist is. It should be obvious. In episode IV it was clear that Luke Skywalker was the protagonist. Like it said in the review - we could really relate to him. He had hopes and dreams and obstacles in the way. We felt bad for him when he lost his aunt and uncle. We watched his friendship grow with Han Solo which made it seem more genuine. I felt none of this for Qui-Gon. He had very minimal character development. When he died I didn't really care because he was a boring bland character to begin with. I couldn't relate to him at all.

I think the protagonist wasn't clear in the movie -- I agree with you.

The Protagonist considers the problem and persues the Solution. Qui-Gon Jinn, Queen Amidala, and Anakin Skywalker all did this. Qui-Gon did this in the beginning of the movie. Queen Amidala did this at the end of the movie. Anakin Skywalker did this in the middle of the movie.

Movie Start: Qui-Gon considered the problem of the Trade Federation, and per sues the Solution -- warning the Naboo. The Jedi escape and take the Queen to Tattooine. In the middle of the Movie: They meet Anakin Skywalker with a new problem -- the Hyperdrive was damaged. The solution was to gamble on a pod race....

Anakin isn't the protagonist. He's a child and we're shown regularly how he doesn't really understand what is going on around him. Then he accidentally does something useful that saves the day. Really, the whole movie exists purely to introduce the characters who are present in the second movie. We waste an entire movie doing what should be done in the first 10 minutes of an actual movie, there is no purpose beyond this.

I say no purpose, because no single event makes any sense when compared to the events that happen before or after it. We are constantly shown things that directly contradict each other or are obviously deus ex machina and contrived to make things convenient for the story.

If you turn off your brain and just look at the pretty colors, it's a great movie.

Cheliax Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

I wonder if there's a version of this for Star Wars...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Tacticslion wrote:

I have so many conflicted feelings, it's hard to know exactly how I feel. But I think, ultimately, I'm hopeful and excited.

It would be really easy to mess everything up. But Disney has had a good track record recently (and I, personally, enjoyed the John Carter film), so I'm actually really excited.

Reference George Lucas...
First, while not true for everyone, he's received a lot of cruel hate and vitriol, which, really, is misdirected.

Second, as others have said, he needs people to tell him "no" sometimes, and filter and refine and expand his really great ideas (I'm actually this way... I have many great ideas, but I need assistance to refine them into something better).

Third, the guy made a large number of mistakes, mishandled the prequels pretty badly, and continued to make poor decisions reference the fans, but at the same time, he created Star Wars and Indiana Jones. To reiterate: George Lucas created Star Wars and Indiana Jones! He had a lot of help, and I'm not going to defend his poor decisions, but he's also responsible for the origin of some great things.

Personally, I'm both happy and sad that he's selling it, yet staying on as a consultant. I'm happy, because now, hopefully, people will tell him "no" like he needs. I'm sad, because it's really the end of an era thirty-plus years long, and is the literal handing-off of a dream created by a college kid long ago. I'm also happy because Lucas is going to be around, giving input and guidance. I'm also sad because it's necessary for the continued strong survival of the franchise that he created that he surrender it to another.

I'm overwhelmed, amazed, and cautiously optimistic (and looking forward to getting more excited as time goes on, as generally occurs with me).

Quoting this whole thing for much needed evenhandedness.

I can certainly crank out some "oh dammit, George!" remarks, but man it has gotten viciously hateful in some corners of the internet.

Accentuating the negative might be the cool thing to do on the webernet, but that atmosphere makes it way too easy to overlook the good.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Steelfiredragon wrote:

anything related to disney ultimately becomes g and pg rated and for video games msut be family friendly and thuse

rated e for everybody

Has anybody told Marvel or Miramax about this?

Also, quit pretending that Star Was was ever anything beyond PG-rated.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Also, two realizations:

1. Leia is now officially a Disney Princess.
1a. Technically Dejah Thoris is too, right?

2. Kingdom Hearts fanfiction is probably going to get even weirder now. And that's the sort of scene where Sephiroth and Goofy giving each other smoldering looks is not something one would call out-of-place.

Cheliax Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kthulhu wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:

anything related to disney ultimately becomes g and pg rated and for video games msut be family friendly and thuse

rated e for everybody

Has anybody told Marvel or Miramax about this?

Haven't you learned anything from the edition wars? Corporations that produce entertainment products exist and operate solely to anger and alienate their fans. They micromanage their subsidiaries all the way down to the ply of toilet paper in the bathrooms and insert random/bad changes into their products to prevent them from becoming high quality and making too much money. The fact is, Episode VII will be edited by the Disney board of directors, who previously used their licensing relationship back in the 90s to pressure Lucas into the whole "Han shot second" fiasco.


LazarX wrote:

The real problem was as epic a fight that it was, it ultimately meant nothing as the whole issue was decided by wild shots from a kid in a hijacked starfigher.

Doesn't that almost perfectly describe the entire Battle of Yavin in Episode IV?

I mean, Luke even turned off his targeting computer.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Besides, guys, the hero of the entire trilogy is neither Obi Wan, nor Vader, nor Luke.

The real hero is Artoo.

Qadira

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Irontruth wrote:


Darth Vader in the original two movies is the best sith ever.

My caveat:

I would completely agree with you, had I not seen episodes I-III and known that Anakin Skywalker was a pompous, self-absorbed whiner with delusions of grandeur,anger issues, and no real heroic qualities at all, rather than the good man who fell to the dark side I was convinced he was by IV, V, and VI.


princeimrahil wrote:
LazarX wrote:

The real problem was as epic a fight that it was, it ultimately meant nothing as the whole issue was decided by wild shots from a kid in a hijacked starfigher.

Doesn't that almost perfectly describe the entire Battle of Yavin in Episode IV?

I mean, Luke even turned off his targeting computer.

Luke didn't just hit buttons randomly hoping something would happen.

Instead, turning off the targeting computer represents the completion of his personal struggle. He blocks out the distractions of the outside world and instead chooses to trust in himself and everything he's learned.

Anakin had no clue what he was doing. He hadn't gone through any personal struggle or overcomes any obstacles. His victory represents nothing important to himself. Instead it is a happy accident that validates the actions of the other characters. Without his pointless action, nothing anyone else does matters, thereby making all of their actions as irrelevant as his.


Irontruth wrote:


Luke didn't just hit buttons randomly hoping something would happen.

Neither did Anakin once he was out in space.

Quote:


Instead, turning off the targeting computer represents the completion of his personal struggle. He blocks out the distractions of the outside world and instead chooses to trust in himself and everything he's learned.

Anakin had no clue what he was doing.

Not true at all. Anakin recognized how his unique talent for podracing (a fairly vain, juvenile pursuit) could be translated into skills that would allow him to participate in a meaningful struggle for the freedom of a peaceful people. Furthermore, Anakin's aptitude for flying is clearly established as an outgrowth of his ability to tap into the Force, just like Luke.

Quote:


He hadn't gone through any personal struggle or overcomes any obstacles. His victory represents nothing important to himself. Instead it is a happy accident that validates the actions of the other characters. Without his pointless action, nothing anyone else does matters, thereby making all of their actions as irrelevant as his.

He didn't have to abandon his mother and his home? He didn't have to override the objections and orders of others who just wanted him to sit in the corner and stay out of trouble? That's a moment where Anakin proves himself to be someone of genuine consequence, and not just some yokel from a desert world.

You say "nothing else matters" far too casually. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are the only ones who can keep Padme from being instantly snatched up by Darth Maul - without the two of them, the Queen gets instantly recaptured, and the coup against the Trade Federation ends. For that matter, the Gungan army was a vital play of misdirection - diverting the attention and main forces of the droids away from the capital, where the real strike was going to be made.

Was the climax of Ep I as well-executed as Ep IV? I'd say not. But you (and a lot of other folks who come off as rather bitter) overstate the critiques of the prequels.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I, for one, agree that Qui-Gon was the main character of Ep 1. I completely disagree with that video's premise that we couldn't describe his character outside of profession/dress/appearance.

Qui-Gon: Serene, Wise, Determined, Patient, Willing to go against his equals/superiors to do what he feels is right.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

thejeff wrote:

Thrawn would be hard to do, since much of it revolved around the 3 main characters and kind of needs to take place soon after the series. You'd have to recast Luke, Han and Leia. I'm not sure how that would go over.

You also don't want to do too much that relies on any more continuity than can be summed up in a short intro.

They're not going to be bound by everything in the Extended Universe as canon. The closest they'd come would be to retell some of the main plots with all sorts of changes.

I think I'd rather they started fresh.

Does anyone actually know what Lucas's original idea for the 3rd trilogy was? I've heard rumors of it since the early 80s, but never any actual information.

Another advantage of going with new characters is that it would give the film makers a chance to improve the gender balance of the main characters. (Lucas (especially evident in the Indiana Jones saga) seems to have problems with women.)

Though it might be cool for the 61 year old Mark Hamill to return in the "Wise Mentor" roll. ;)


The Phandom Menace, that's what it was.

Btw, Stars Wars is lame.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Asphere wrote:

I think saying that Qui-Gon was the main character is a leap. If that was the intention it wasn't clearly defined in the movie at all.

Obi-Wan should have been the main character. He should have been the one to find Anakin. He should have been the one that went against the wishes of the council and Qui-Gon in order to train him. We should have been able to see and relate to the relationship between Obi-Wan and his his master so that when Qui-Gon dies it had a bigger impact on us.

Watch the review I linked above. It lays it out fairly well.

This is very important as it would have actually followed what had come before (Obi Wan telling Luke how he failed to train Anakin due to his pride and stubbornness).

But since Obi wan apparently had his own memory erased about 'owning a droid' I guess continuity wasn't high on George's list of important things (kind of like actually learning to block shots properly and not have every stinking dialogue scene during into a pair of talking heads)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
princeimrahil wrote:
Irontruth wrote:


Luke didn't just hit buttons randomly hoping something would happen.

Neither did Anakin once he was out in space.

"Let's try spinning that's a good move."

yeah - he sure didn't try anything random there...

Shadow Lodge

Reckless wrote:

I, for one, agree that Qui-Gon was the main character of Ep 1. I completely disagree with that video's premise that we couldn't describe his character outside of profession/dress/appearance.

Qui-Gon: Serene, Wise, Determined, Patient, Willing to go against his equals/superiors to do what he feels is right.

1. You are not being caught off guard by the question. You have more time to think about it.

2. Even though you are not being caught off guard by the question your description is still pretty bland compared to their descriptions of Han and C3P0. Serene, wise, determined, and patient all very much follow from each other. These are barely above "stoic". "Willing to go against his equals/superiors" was his plot line. Notice how much richer the descriptions of Han Solo and C3P0 were. The reason why your description only contained 4 items is because that is pretty much all he had going for him. He had zero character development.

As for the rest of the protagonists - they should have developed as characters in TPM after all that was going on around them but they didn't seem to at all. They were the same 2 dimensional characters they were at the start. Look at Han Solo at the beginning of A New Hope. He didn't care about the rebellion. He wanted money. He didn't go out of his way to hurt anyone but if he had to he would. Save a princess? Why? What is in it for him? However, we saw his character develop. He started to care what the others thought about him and he began to care about them individually. He came back and saved Luke from being blown away by Vader.

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I think they should digitally replace Jar Jar with Zoidberg from Futurama.

Shadow Lodge

princeimrahil wrote:


He didn't have to abandon his mother and his home? He didn't have to override the objections and orders of others who just wanted him to sit in the corner and stay out of trouble? That's a moment where Anakin proves himself to be someone of genuine consequence, and not just some yokel from a desert world.

You say "nothing else matters" far too casually. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are the only ones who can keep Padme from being instantly snatched up by Darth Maul - without the two of them, the Queen gets instantly recaptured, and the coup against the Trade Federation ends. For that matter, the Gungan army was a vital play of misdirection - diverting the attention and main forces of the droids away from the capital, where the real strike was going to be made.

Was the climax of Ep I as well-executed as Ep IV? I'd say not. But you (and a lot of other folks who come...

Those would have been excellent reasons for some good character development for Anakin. I think he had one sulking scene after that and then he got over it and was the same chipper boy he was at the beginning: "Now this is pod racing". My complaint isn't that things didn't happen - its that they didn't seem to have any impact with the characters.

Also, why would the Trade Federation even ride out from a heavily fortified city and attack a bunch of Caribbean frog people while leaving their highest official in the most obvious place (the throne room)? I can stomach one or two bad plot devices that don't make any sense but TPM has one after another.

Shadow Lodge

Shadowborn wrote:
Irontruth wrote:


Darth Vader in the original two movies is the best sith ever.

My caveat:

I would completely agree with you, had I not seen episodes I-III and known that Anakin Skywalker was a pompous, self-absorbed whiner with delusions of grandeur,anger issues, and no real heroic qualities at all, rather than the good man who fell to the dark side I was convinced he was by IV, V, and VI.

The b#@##ing and whining aspect in II and III really bugged me. In TPM I hated how happy he was - I mean he was a slave right? He should have been dark, depressed, lacking confidence. We should have felt pity for him so that when he did save they day we would have cheered for him. Instead he seemed to have a decent life filled with droids, pod racing, friends, a house, food, a loving mother, and an Eastern European Jewish Alien caretaker with fairy wings.

Then by episode II he was a whiny spoiled brat which continued into the next movie.

Qadira

Asphere wrote:
I think they should digitally replace Jar Jar with Zoidberg from Futurama.

Zoidberg would actually be less annoying than Jar-Jar, though no less of a racial stereotype.

I plan on replying to GM Elton eventually, but the first time I read his reply to me and hit the part where he said that Jar-Jar was not only a good character, but essential to the film, I laughed so hard I cried. It still gives me the giggles. You have no idea how difficult it was to finish this paragraph.


Many people didn't like the actor that played Anakin, that alone is one of the problems. They also got a new art director for the prequels that's why those films look so different from the originals. They also changed producers which had an effect on the films. Star Wars will never go into the R rated world. It's an all ages type film, and those films bring in more money. I'm so skeptical about the new films, I have a bad feeling about this as Han Solo would say.


princeimrahil wrote:
Irontruth wrote:


Luke didn't just hit buttons randomly hoping something would happen.

Neither did Anakin once he was out in space.

Quote:


Instead, turning off the targeting computer represents the completion of his personal struggle. He blocks out the distractions of the outside world and instead chooses to trust in himself and everything he's learned.

Anakin had no clue what he was doing.

Not true at all. Anakin recognized how his unique talent for podracing (a fairly vain, juvenile pursuit) could be translated into skills that would allow him to participate in a meaningful struggle for the freedom of a peaceful people. Furthermore, Anakin's aptitude for flying is clearly established as an outgrowth of his ability to tap into the Force, just like Luke.

Quote:


He hadn't gone through any personal struggle or overcomes any obstacles. His victory represents nothing important to himself. Instead it is a happy accident that validates the actions of the other characters. Without his pointless action, nothing anyone else does matters, thereby making all of their actions as irrelevant as his.

He didn't have to abandon his mother and his home? He didn't have to override the objections and orders of others who just wanted him to sit in the corner and stay out of trouble? That's a moment where Anakin proves himself to be someone of genuine consequence, and not just some yokel from a desert world.

You say "nothing else matters" far too casually. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are the only ones who can keep Padme from being instantly snatched up by Darth Maul - without the two of them, the Queen gets instantly recaptured, and the coup against the Trade Federation ends. For that matter, the Gungan army was a vital play of misdirection - diverting the attention and main forces of the droids away from the capital, where the real strike was going to be made.

Was the climax of Ep I as well-executed as Ep IV? I'd say not. But you (and a lot of other folks who come...

Except the stuff on the ground didn't actually matter. The trade federation leader wasn't controlling the robots directly, that was being done with the ship in orbit. He also isn't even the one pulling the strings, if he's taken hostage, wouldn't Darth Sidious just force another trade federation member to take that guys place?

Also, why did the trade federation remove the OTHER 29 CONTROL SHIPS? Because for Anakin to accidentally repeat the process another 29 times would break anyone's suspension of disbelief.

It's not like Anakin was ripped from his mothers arms. It's not like he's being tortured or abused... in fact his life gets better upon leaving his mother's care, he's no longer working as a slave for one. I really don't see this as any more traumatic than being sent off to spent a week with your grandparents at the age of 6, whom you rarely see, so they kinda seem like strangers. Or going to camp.

Again, I don't think the movies are the worst ever. They're on the poor side of mediocre. They do make it clear that Lucas is not the genius we thought he was.


GM Elton wrote:
Actually, PG-13 is the worst rating a movie can receive. with an R-rated movie, you can go into stories that teach that Sin has consequences. G is really, really close to PG-13 in the fact that you tend to white wash the story and suddenly you're telling a lie. PG-13 is a movie where you can go see sin whitewashed. Woman in Red -- the story of a man committing Adultery with a model -- is the second PG-13 movie. Pretty Woman, the converse, is the story of a man redeeming a hooker; is rated R.

Oh, and a lot of PG movies are only PG because they realized that they'd get a G rating so threw in a mild swear. To make it mature.

I think they should bring back Jar-Jar. The Stormtroopers (if there are any left after RoTJ) clearly need some target practice, after all.


Asphere wrote:

Also, why would the Trade Federation even ride out from a heavily fortified city and attack a bunch of Caribbean frog people while leaving their highest official in the most obvious place (the throne room)? I can stomach one or two bad plot devices that don't make any sense but TPM has one after another.

Why wouldn't Grand Moff Tarkin do the safe thing and evacuate himself from the Death Star when it was under attack?

Why did the Emperor only have a single legion of imperial troops protecting the shield generator on Endor?

Why did they even bother building a second Death Star after the first one was blown up by a handful of fighters?

Hubris.

Also, the Trade Federation frankly doesn't strike me as being strategically brilliant. They might be crafty merchants, but their warfare modus operandi seems to pretty much be: "Hit things really hard with overwhelming numbers."


2 people marked this as a favorite.

from Wookiepedia;.....

"Hyperspace collisions, whether they be intentional or by accident, could devastate or even destroy a planet. Considering the fact that the output of the reactors of many Capital ships rivaled or eclipsed that of a star, and that the energies needed to make hyperspace travel possible were vast, one could unleash a great deal of destructive power on a target."

That being said, what the f%!@ do you need a Death Star for even? Just put 10 assassin droids in 10 YT-1300's and let them go to town on Alderaan.


Irontruth wrote:
Except the stuff on the ground didn't actually matter. The trade federation leader wasn't controlling the robots directly, that was being done with the ship in orbit. He also isn't even the one pulling the strings, if he's taken hostage, wouldn't Darth Sidious just force another trade federation member to take that guys place?

It mattered because the goal was capturing the TF leaders so the Queen could force them to sign a treaty forcing them to withdraw from the planet and never bother them again. Remember, the TF was trying to achieve a "legal" conquest - that was why they wanted to capture the Queen in the first place, so they could force her to sign away sovereignty of Naboo.

Quote:
Also, why did the trade federation remove the OTHER 29 CONTROL SHIPS? Because for Anakin to accidentally repeat the process another 29 times would break anyone's suspension of disbelief.

1) Because they only set up the blockade as a ruse that allowed them to move all of their invasion forces into place. Once they had invaded and gotten their troops on the ground, they didn't need them anymore.

2) Because ships are expensive - deploying and supplying that many starships is costly, and the TF aren't going to run up needless expenses once they have achieved their goal.

3) Because they're trying to convince the Senate that they've been "peacefully negotiating" a transfer of control.

Quote:

It's not like Anakin was ripped from his mothers arms. It's not like he's being tortured or abused... in fact his life gets better upon leaving his mother's care, he's no longer working as a slave for one. I really don't see this as any more traumatic than being sent off to spent a week with your grandparents at the age of 6, whom you rarely see, so they kinda seem like strangers. Or going to camp.

Again, I don't think the movies are the worst ever. They're on the poor side of mediocre. They do make it clear that Lucas is not the genius we thought he was.

Trauma doesn't have to be the result of solely external forces - sometimes characters are forced to make difficult decisions that can haunt them (as Anakin's decision to leave haunts him. He feels terrible that his mother died without him there to protect him).

For a young child to be not only separated from his mother, but to also have to leave everyone and everything he's ever known, to be raised by people who are entirely foreign to him, is pretty traumatic. Heck, that's kind of a cornerstone of the plot of Citizen Kane, right? CFK gets sent away from his family to a "better life" but ends up emotionally stunted as a result.

And yeah, the prequels aren't great. I think there are some genuine criticisms to be made of them, but the "omg plot hole" type nitpicks don't really work for me given both the genre and the other films.

Because you know, Darth Vader killed Luke Skywalker's father... from a certain point of view.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Asphere wrote:
Reckless wrote:

I, for one, agree that Qui-Gon was the main character of Ep 1. I completely disagree with that video's premise that we couldn't describe his character outside of profession/dress/appearance.

Qui-Gon: Serene, Wise, Determined, Patient, Willing to go against his equals/superiors to do what he feels is right.

1. You are not being caught off guard by the question. You have more time to think about it.

2. Even though you are not being caught off guard by the question your description is still pretty bland compared to their descriptions of Han and C3P0. Serene, wise, determined, and patient all very much follow from each other. These are barely above "stoic". "Willing to go against his equals/superiors" was his plot line. Notice how much richer the descriptions of Han Solo and C3P0 were. The reason why your description only contained 4 items is because that is pretty much all he had going for him. He had zero character development.

As for the rest of the protagonists - they should have developed as characters in TPM after all that was going on around them but they didn't seem to at all. They were the same 2 dimensional characters they were at the start. Look at Han Solo at the beginning of A New Hope. He didn't care about the rebellion. He wanted money. He didn't go out of his way to hurt anyone but if he had to he would. Save a princess? Why? What is in it for him? However, we saw his character develop. He started to care what the others thought about him and he began to care about them individually. He came back and saved Luke from being blown away by Vader.

1.) Nope, these are the things that came to mind immediately, while watching the video.

2) Really, "effeminate, cowardly, comic relief" is better than Qui-Gon? because pretty much everything they said about C-3PO could be used to describe Jar-Jar.

Don't confuse what I'm saying with what other people are saying. Qui-Gon made the movie worth watching for me, despite its many, many problems.

It's a bit of a stretch to say that Han Solo developed much during Ep4. Maybe at the end he "started to care" about the individuals he befriended, but certainly no more than he cared about Chewie at the beginning of the movie. He still could have given a rat's ass about the rebellion, except as it related to those people.

Sure, the main character, Luke, developed greatly during Ep4. That was a coming of age story as old as time. The secondary characters' development was total weaksauce in EP4, just as it was in Ep1. Chewie-no development. C3PO/R2D2 no development. The Princess? Nope, even with her planet destroyed, she is arguably the same person at the end that she is at the beginning. Han, nope same old rogue with the heart of gold.

Qui-Gon also had no development, so it's Ep1 0-- Ep4 1.


princeimrahil wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Except the stuff on the ground didn't actually matter. The trade federation leader wasn't controlling the robots directly, that was being done with the ship in orbit. He also isn't even the one pulling the strings, if he's taken hostage, wouldn't Darth Sidious just force another trade federation member to take that guys place?

It mattered because the goal was capturing the TF leaders so the Queen could force them to sign a treaty forcing them to withdraw from the planet and never bother them again. Remember, the TF was trying to achieve a "legal" conquest - that was why they wanted to capture the Queen in the first place, so they could force her to sign away sovereignty of Naboo.

How does a legal invasion help Palpatine at all? It is the exact opposite of what he wants, the whole basis of his initial power grab is to protect Naboo from invasion, but if it's not actually being invaded, what's the point of electing him chancellor and giving him emergency powers? There's no emergency if the treaty is signed and everything is legit.

Also, why wouldn't he use whatever leverage he has on the TF people not present, you know, the guys on the OTHER 29 SHIPS, to just declare the treaty void and come back and attack again? The TF army hasn't been defeated, because they still have 96% of there army in reserve!

Quote:
Quote:
Also, why did the trade federation remove the OTHER 29 CONTROL SHIPS? Because for Anakin to accidentally repeat the process another 29 times would break anyone's suspension of disbelief.

1) Because they only set up the blockade as a ruse that allowed them to move all of their invasion forces into place. Once they had invaded and gotten their troops on the ground, they didn't need them anymore.

2) Because ships are expensive - deploying and supplying that many starships is costly, and the TF aren't going to run up needless expenses once they have achieved their goal.

3) Because they're trying to convince the Senate that they've been "peacefully negotiating" a transfer of control.

1. Maintaining an army is expensive, plus a space army with space support is a sitting duck, plus they're stranded. Also,mthey hadn't achieved their goal of having the treaty signed.

2. Stated above, a peaceful settlement is the opposite of what is good for Palpatines plans.

Quote:
Quote:

It's not like Anakin was ripped from his mothers arms. It's not like he's being tortured or abused... in fact his life gets better upon leaving his mother's care, he's no longer working as a slave for one. I really don't see this as any more traumatic than being sent off to spent a week with your grandparents at the age of 6, whom you rarely see, so they kinda seem like strangers. Or going to camp.

Again, I don't think the movies are the worst ever. They're on the poor side of mediocre. They do make it clear that Lucas is not the genius we thought he was.

Trauma doesn't have...

Cut short, cause formatting is annoying on my iPad.

We aren't shown how anything is traumatic. Plus, his blowing up the droid ship has nothing to do with his trauma. There's no growth or development that makes this importance. If its related to his pod racing, he's received pretty much nothing but support, encouragement and we've seen him have nothing but success during the course of the movie. We don't see him struggle at all, except maybe against Watto, but he's already been rescued from him.

Also, on Tattooine it's noted that there are many ship parts dealers. This implies there are ships traveling to and from the system. This implies that there is probably someone who could use republic credits or make an exchange for them, since the credits are a form of currency used on different planets.. It's almost like the audience has already been shown a scene in a previous movie where a transport was arranged on short notice using republic credits off of this planet.


Irontruth wrote:


How does a legal invasion help Palpatine at all? It is the exact opposite of what he wants, the whole basis of his initial power grab is to protect Naboo from invasion, but if it's not actually being invaded, what's the point of electing him chancellor and giving him emergency powers? There's no emergency if the treaty is signed and everything is legit.

Also, why wouldn't he use whatever leverage he has on the TF people not present, you know, the guys on the OTHER 29 SHIPS, to just declare the treaty void and come back and attack again? The TF army hasn't been defeated, because they still have 96% of there army in reserve!

How does blowing up planets help the Emperor? Especially since he already has a massive fleet that can pretty much accomplish the same goals. I get the impression that Palpatine kind of likes grand gestures of power. I suspect (though it's never spelled out, of course) that his initial plan was to gain control of Naboo - he helps the TF take over, and then gets appointed as some kind of regional governor. The Jedi spoil all of this, so being the master schemer that he is, he adapts his plan (and this gets him even more power).

Or option B, he has "already forseen" all of these events and he just set them in motion so he could achieve power. Remember Ep 6 how he keeps bringing up his ability to see into the future?

He doesn't declare the subsequent "good guy" treaty void because by the time the good guys win, he's already Supreme Chancellor. He's gotten either more than he planned for, or everything he wanted in the first place (depending on which of my previous theories one ascribes to).

Quote:

1. Maintaining an army is expensive, plus a space army with space support is a sitting duck, plus they're stranded. Also,mthey hadn't achieved their goal of having the treaty signed.

Yes, maintaining an army is expensive. Maintaining an army AND a navy is even MORE expensive.

Keeping the fleet of ships there does nothing to enhance their ability to get the treaty signed because the Queen has fled the planet. It could well be that the rest of the fleet is off in space, trying to track her down.

Quote:
We aren't shown how anything is traumatic. Plus, his blowing up the droid ship has nothing to do with his trauma. There's no growth or development that makes this importance. If its related to his pod racing, he's received pretty much nothing but support, encouragement and we've seen him have nothing but success during the course of the movie. We don't see him struggle at all, except maybe against Watto, but he's already been rescued from him.

Except for the tearful and unexpected good bye between Ani and his mom. Remember, it came as a surprise to him that he was going to leave, but she was going to have to stay. The kid is given about five minutes to process this, and then suddenly has to leave.

I think you're setting a strangely high bar. I mean, Leia, Chewie, and Artoo experience no growth in Ep IV, but that doesn't ruin the flick.

Quote:


Also, on Tattooine it's noted that there are many ship parts dealers. This implies there are ships traveling to and from the system. This implies that there is probably someone who could use republic credits or make an exchange for them, since the credits are a form of currency used on different planets.. It's almost like the audience has already been shown a scene in a previous movie where a transport was arranged on short notice using republic credits off of this planet.

These are small scrap merchants, not bankers. They do business for hard currency - they aren't going to take worthless scrip on the chance that they will find a way to use it later. Remember, people buy FROM them - how are they going to use those credits anyway?

And by "previous movie," you surely mean "later," right? As in "later, after an imperial garrison is stationed on the planet, finally bringing mainstream trade and currency to Tattooine?"

And if you're referring to Luke paying Han, he gets the money from selling his speeder to a local - who probably pays him in local coin, anyway.


My point with Anakin's complete lack of anything, except happy accidents, means he he is completely uninteresting, unimportant and not the main character or protagonist in any way during the first movie.

Ep 4 had a protagonist.

The Emperors plans make no sense in anything you just described. If he can see all this future stuff, why doesn't he just use his TWO ARMIES, go to Tattoine, grab Anakin and raise him to be Vader? If he can orchestrate an entire galactic republic to dance to his whims, I'm pretty sure he can make a 6yo into an evil brainwashed henchman if he wants.

Remember, Palpatine is in control of the only two armies in the galaxy. Who is going to oppose him? The Jedi who are later defeated by only one of his armies?

We don't even know why the TF is blockading the planet. It's something to do with taxes, but taxes on what? And why is this lush, earth like planet in danger when it only has two cities to support, and those cities don't seem to even interact with each other. And why is something called the Trade Federation opposed to trade?

Also, if Tattoine is such a remote planet that hardly anyone goes to, why is it on the way to where ever anyone is going anywhere? They left Naboo, a planet that is a member of the galactic republic and is engaged in trade, presumably because the TF has an interest in it. Leaving there to head to the most central and important planet in the republic, Coruscant, they happen across Tattoine. That means Tattoine lies directly on the path of major transit routes in the Republic.

Then, based on Ep 4, it lies somewhere between Alderaan, a cultured and developed member of the Empire and Coruscant, though not directly, because Leia's ship was trying to do something illicit, but it's still generally on the way between the two. That means either Naboo and Alderaan are near each other, or Tattoine and Coruscant are near each other.

The Jedi council sends Qui-Gonn and Obi-wann to go back to Naboo and that they are going to use all their resources to uncover the sith lord. Except the only resources they devote are Qui-Gonn and Obi-wann. Either those are the only two Jedi, or all other Jedi are useless.

And the fleet doesn't need to track her down, she makes a PUBLIC APPEARANCE in the senate. All they needed to do was turn on the galactic equivalent of c-spann. Then they would have known to bring their ships back to Naboo. I'm pretty sure the TF guy with the eye/mouth coverings knows how to use google alerts, I mean they could tell exactly where the Jedi were on the ship (but not able to tell when they stowed away on a droid transport).

Seriously, you have to keep contorting into pretzels and rely on explanations that aren't present in the movie. I just keep pointing out things that happen and how they contradict each other violently.


PsychoticWarrior wrote:

SO why is it people who like, or even tolerate, the prequels feel so pressed to defend them when their many, many flaws are pointed out? I seem to feel this is familiar some how.....

Oh.

My.

God.

Prequel Star Wars fans are the D&D 4E fans of Star Wars!!!!!

4e isn't actually that flawed. It was just a different style of game that some people didn't like.

4e vs PF is more akin to Star Wars vs Star Trek. Some people like one, some like both.


People people it's a freakin movie. It's not real, and it's not supposed to be real. Jeezzz. It's solely for the purpose of entertainment, and for making money for the movie studio. Lucas claims Star Wars is a fantasy film, not SCI FI. I think people are going a little nuts about this.


Look up the Red Letter Media reviews of the prequels. They are epic. Anyone going to direct any new movies should be forced to watch them as well.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Has this been linked yet?

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

While I'm at it, there's this one too.

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