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Trying to make an Alchemist


Rules Questions


Hi everyone, I'm still pretty new to Pathfinder and I've been delving into the SRD online and I've come to a point with the Alchemist class that I can't find any resolution on.

Extracts/Day vs Extracts Known.

From the SRD.

Alchemists, like wizards, get extra extracts/day based on their Intelligence. So if I plugged (for example) a 16 into my Intelligence stat, the bonus extracts would be 1 additional 1st/2nd/3rd lvl extract/day. Making my Extracts per day 2/1/1/0/0/0. Now that is limited by the following line.

"An alchemist begins play with two 1st level formulae of his choice, plus a number of additional forumlae equal to his Intelligence modifier. At each new alchemist level, he gains one new formula of any level that he can create."

There's a table showing Extracts/Day as you level on the SRD. But there's nothing that shows what lvl extracts I "know" (gain access to) per lvl.

Because I have an Intelligence of 16 I would get 3 additional formulae at first level. Would I be able to pick a formulae of any level I can create (i.e. the bonus 1st, 2nd, or 3rd lvl slots from my high intelligence), or am i restricted to grabbing 3 additional 1st lvl formulae? And what about 2nd lvl? The table shows my base extracts per day as 2/0/0/0/0/0, which would be modified by my Int to 3/1/1/0/0/0, would I be able to take a lvl 2 or lvl 3 extract at 2nd level?

The reason I ask is I've played a Sorcerer and Bard before and they have tables for both Spells/Day AND Spells Known. That's why I'm confused about what Extracts/Day and Extracts Known are for an Alchemist. Thanks for any clarity you can give me!


16 int lvl 1 alchemist - have 1 +1 (from int) = 2 lvl 1 Extract pr day.

He starts with 3+ 3 (from int) = 6 lvl 1 formulas in his formula book.

You only get lvl 2 and lvl 3 bonus extracts when you can "cook" lvl 2 and lvl 3 extracts.

You gain acces to lvl 2 extracts at lvl 4. So the extra known extract at lvl 4 could be a lvl 2 extract.

I hope that explains it.


Thanks! So basically the table "Extracts per Day" IS my Extracts Known. The Bonuses from my Int remain "inert" until I gain the appropriate lvl Extracts on the Base table. I appreciate the clarity. :)

Designer

No, "extracts per day" and "extracts known" are different things.

It's exactly like the difference between how many spells a wizard can cast per day, and how many spells the wizard has in his spellbook.

So your 16 Int alchemist KNOWS 6 formulas in his formula book, but he can only "CAST" 2 of them per day (these are the numbers Bigtuna posted).

At 2nd level, your alchemist gains 1 more 1st-level formula KNOWN, from the rule: "At each new alchemist level, he gains one new formula of any level that he can create."

And at 2nd level, how many 1st-level formulas you can "CAST" increases from 2 (1 from the level 1 line on the alchemist table, 1 from your Int) to 3 (2 from the level 2 line on the alchemist table, 1 from your Int).

So your level 2 alchemist would KNOW 7 1st-level formulas in his book, but could only "CAST" a total of 3 per day.

(And I put "CAST" in quotes because he's not really casting, he's creating extracts and drinking them, I'm just writing it like how you'd explain it for a wizard.)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Can the Alchemist take and use Craft feats?

Like Craft Wondrous Item?

The Carrion Crown AP makes me think yes.


I'd like to point out that the alchemist, like the wizard, can transcribe formula/spells into his book at any time, so there isn't really a fixed number of formula that the alchemist knows per level, just a minimum.


Bearded Ben wrote:
I'd like to point out that the alchemist, like the wizard, can transcribe formula/spells into his book at any time, so there isn't really a fixed number of formula that the alchemist knows per level, just a minimum.

Yeah, it's exactly like a wizard's spellbook: You put 3 + INT mod extracts into your formula book for _free_ at creation, you add extract to your formula book for _free_ each time you level.

But you can also add a new extract to your formula book at any time, if you pass the spellcraft check and pay the required costs. See the Arcane Magical writings section of the Magic chapter of the core rulebook.

Alchemists act like wizards, not bards, sorcerers, oracles, or inquisitors who only get a certain number of spells and no more. Alchemists can add more extracts to their formula books whenever they run across a formula book, spell book, or scroll that has a formula (or spell) that is on their spell list.


Bigtuna wrote:
He starts with 3+ 3 (from int) = 6 lvl 1 formulas in his formula book.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

So your 16 Int alchemist KNOWS 6 formulas in his formula book

...
So your level 2 alchemist would KNOW 7 1st-level formulas in his book

Why 6?


Joesi wrote:
Bigtuna wrote:
He starts with 3+ 3 (from int) = 6 lvl 1 formulas in his formula book.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

So your 16 Int alchemist KNOWS 6 formulas in his formula book

...
So your level 2 alchemist would KNOW 7 1st-level formulas in his book
Why 6?

Because he starts with 3 by default and adds another three due to his int modifier.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Can the Alchemist take and use Craft feats?

Like Craft Wondrous Item?

The Carrion Crown AP makes me think yes.

This has been debated hotly on these Threads. The official ruling is Yes.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Can the Alchemist take and use Craft feats?

Like Craft Wondrous Item?

The Carrion Crown AP makes me think yes.

This has been debated hotly on these Threads. The official ruling is Yes.

Well, here is James' latest opinion.


Ximen Bao wrote:
Joesi wrote:
Bigtuna wrote:
He starts with 3+ 3 (from int) = 6 lvl 1 formulas in his formula book.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

So your 16 Int alchemist KNOWS 6 formulas in his formula book

...
So your level 2 alchemist would KNOW 7 1st-level formulas in his book
Why 6?
Because he starts with 3 by default and adds another three due to his int modifier.

WTF dude?

You realize I quoted a guy saying 3+3 = 6 right?
I know my basic math.

Why does alchemist start with 3 formula as a base for level 1?

Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Can the Alchemist take and use Craft feats?

Like Craft Wondrous Item?

The Carrion Crown AP makes me think yes.

This has been debated hotly on these Threads. The official ruling is Yes.

Why wouldn't alchemists be able to use craft feats?

For craft wondrous item, the question that seems more pertinent is if having the extract/formula counts as having/using the spell (vs having to have someone aid or use a scroll)


Joesi wrote:

Why wouldn't alchemists be able to use craft feats?

For craft wondrous item, the question that seems more pertinent is if having the extract/formula counts as having/using the spell (vs having to have someone aid or use a scroll)

Because Alchemists don't meet the "caster level X" requirement. Alchemists don't have a caster level, they use their alchemist level in place of it for duration on their extracts and for "caster level checks" such as those made for dispel magic, but they very explicitly DO NOT have a caster level.

As linked above, here is James Jacob's latest statement on alchemists & crafting feats:

James Jacobs wrote:

That means that even if you do say that an alchemist doesn't count as a spellcaster for meeting the prerequisites of taking the Craft Construct feat, there ABSOLUTELY should be an alchemist discovery (or heck, even an archetype) that allows an alchemist to build constructs. Just because we haven't designed and published that option for players doesn't mean it doesn't exist. SHOULD we have published that rules option in the adventure that featured an alchemist with a construct minion? Yes. But we didn't, and I'd quantify that as an error. Some day in the future, we'll get rules for alchemest-created constructs into the game.


Bump, just wondering for clarification:
Am I missing something important here, or did Sean K Reynolds, and Bigtuna (and ximen bao?) make a mistake in saying that it's base 3?

Silver Crusade

They did make a small mistake.

Most prepared casters with a "Spellbook" like Wizard, Magus, and Witch all start play with a spellbook containing 3 free 1st level spells and additional free spells equal to their int modifier. Also, whenever, they level up, they can select 2 free spells.

Alchemists however, are different.

Alchemists only start the game with 2 free spells + INT modifier, not 3. Also, when an Alchemist levels up, he only gets ONE free spell.

So your alchemist with a 16 Int would start the game with a formula book with FIVE formulas in it, not six. And when you level up to 2nd level, you would gain ONE free formula.

Note that this is in addition to any spells you scribe into your spellbook from other sources.


I think Josie is asking the same question I am.
That question is about the starting number of extracts known.

The PRD says that an alchemist starts with 2 plus INT modifier number of extracts. An INT of 16 should grant you 5 known extracts, not 6. Did I miss something?

Silver Crusade

Patrick McGrath wrote:

I think Josie is asking the same question I am.

That question is about the starting number of extracts known.

The PRD says that an alchemist starts with 2 plus INT modifier number of extracts. An INT of 16 should grant you 5 known extracts, not 6. Did I miss something?

You are correct, although I don't like the idea of using the term "extracts known" because there is no limit to that, apart from the number of spells in the game.

A 1st level alchemist with an INT of 16 starts the game with 5 FREE extracts.

However, if he is for example a spoiled rich nancy boy, walks down the street to the house of Elizdor the great Alchemist (A level 20 alchemist), and slaps down a huge bag of coins on the table and says "Elizdor my dear man, here is some coinage, may I have the priviledge of copying spells from your spellbook?"

If Elizdor agrees and passes him his spellbook with all 1sts level formulas in it, as long as Mr. 1st level alchemist pays the costs to scribe the spells in his book and pays Elizdor his fee for copying his spells, then that 1st level alchemist can technically leave the shop with all 1st level spells in the game in his book.

So the key is not "Spells Known" but "Spells I don't have to PAY for."

Because you can know all the spells in the game at 1st level. You just have to pay for them.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Is there not favored class bonuses that add to "known" extracts?

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Is there not favored class bonuses that add to "known" extracts?

There might be, I was trying to avoid further complicating what is already kind of a complicated system. That and I'm not really up on all the alternative favored class bonuses.


Yeah, human gets +1 known extract no greater than 1 level lower than they can cast. It's so epically terrible. wouldn't do anything for the first 3 levels, and for later levels it's just worth a pittance of gold

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Sorry, I should have said that the alch1 starts with 5 extracts known, not 6. 2 from being 1st level, 3 from INT.

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